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I still agree with reasoning of WP:MOS-JP in regsd to Hirohito. In other words, the English Wikipedia should name his article using the most common name he is known with in Western world. I accept both Hirohito and Hirohito, Emperor Showa for use as name of this article. Let there be no uncertainty that I oppose strongly any leaving "Hirohito" away from the article name. Shilkanni ( talk) 17:41, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Hirohito is the most appropriate name for this article. It is the name most commonly associated with the subject in sources originating in the English-speaking world. English usage trumps Japanese usage because the subject is a figure of world history and the English usage is established in a large body of works concerning him created outside Japan. Hirohito is even the name under which the Emperor published marine biology texts in English during his lifetime. It is true that this usage is incorrect by Japanese standards, but propogating Japanese usage into current English is not the mission of Wikipedia. It is true that this usage is inconsistent with the naming of rulers of other countries and other periods of Japanese history, but that is the nature of the English language. Further, Hirohito should also be preferred usage in the body of the article, though a discussion of "Showa Tenno" and Japanese usage is called for. -- Meyer ( talk) 09:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
There are other Hirohito, including (but not limited to):
Regardless of the chosen title, Hirohito should be a disambiguation page. As such, there are better, more descriptive and appropriate names for this emperor as well. Bendono ( talk) 03:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Above there is an assertion that the emperor is commonly known just as Hirohito. That may or may not be, but he is also just as commonly known as Emperor Hirohito. Here is a quick list of professionally published English language resources to back the point:
Bendono ( talk) 06:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually this article should be called Hirohito of Japan. In fact all the Japanese emperor/empress regnant articles should be X of Japan. That's how the other monarch biographies are styled ('monarch name' of 'country'). GoodDay ( talk) 17:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Nobody calls George VI "Albert" after his accession, nor does anyone call the pope "Ratzinger" anymore. The situation with Hirohito is different. As to "of Japan" that is entirely unnecessary - "of Country" is only used for countries where a name might be reused in different countries - we specifically say Christian and Muslim rulers, I believe. There is no other Hirohito, no other Meiji, no other Qianlong Emperor, and so forth, so no need to use country names. john k ( talk) 18:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like to point out that other articles on Japanese monarchs give their title - e.g. Empress Suiko. So I think we should use that here. As for the name used, I think it should be "Showa". So I would plump for "Emperor Showa". John Smith's ( talk) 18:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I support either leaving the article here (at Hirohito) or moving it to Emperor Hirohito due to common usage. Those two forms are by far the most common way to refer to this person, though I give preference to Hirohito I believethat usage is a little more common than the other. Emperor Showa, Emperor Shouwa, and Emperor Shōwa should all redirect here. If someone wants to create redirects for Hirohito of Japan and Shōwa of Japan, I'd be fine with that, though I have never seen either used in anything. Not even once (until this discussion). ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Wow, I guess all the people who thought this guy was (Emperor) Hirohito were wrong. He was really...well, we'll have to let the expert inform us of that...repeatedly. What must his life have been like, having to use the wrong name while he was alive? Only in death did he find his real identity apparently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.110.244 ( talk) 22:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
As I mentioned before, The Encyclopædia Britannica, PBS, TIME magazine Asia edition, The BBC, and Encarta all refer to him as Hirohito or Emperor Hirohito, I know some individual authors may refer to him in other manners, but I'd say those are pretty reliable, independent, English-language sources of what is the most-common name of an individual. MBisanz talk 01:41, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I support the official name : Emperor Shōwa. It is time Wikipedia use the correct appellation and there is no problem about some users unable to find the article as, with the miracle of technology, Hirohito should redirect here. As for emperor Hirohito, I strongly reject it as Hirohito is his personnal name, not his regal name. I would prefer keeping Hirohito than this. -- Flying tiger ( talk) 03:06, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
English language media utilize the Emperor's given name (Hirohito) more often than the official name given by the Japanese government (Emperor Shōwa). As per WP:NC(CN), the more common usage in the English language is what is used over any official or full name, which in this case is Hirohito. "Emperor Hirohito" is used most after just "Hirohito" and "Emperor Shōwa/Showa/Shouwa" are practically unheard of in regular English usage. While they are used, they aren't as used as "Hirohito" so the page should remain where it currently is.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍) 07:18, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
"Hirohito" is only a first name, as can be seen with other articles with that name. The emperor should be moved to "Emperor Hirohito" or "Emperor Showa", and a disambiguation page for the names, see Michiko for example. Gryffindor 20:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
All the Japanese emperor/empress regnants should be moved to their 'living names', as these articles are mainley about them when they were alive. Let the Japanese Wikipedia worry about 'living/dead names' titles. GoodDay ( talk) 16:25, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Jeepers, it was just a suggestion. My intent wasn't to make us look like morons. I hope we leave out those 'cubes' in the names. GoodDay ( talk) 17:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
The diacritics. If Showa is used (which shouldn't be) it must not be spelt as S-h-square-w-a. GoodDay ( talk) 20:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
<Resetting left margin...>
I've never been happy about the Wikipedia naming policy (I'd rather have articles at the most accurate name, and redirects from the 'common' name, so that e.g. the article would be at
Lorenzo di Piero de' Medici, with a redirect from
Lorenzo de' Medici), but as long as we have the 'most common version' rule, let's follow it. Basically nobody in the world of 'English as a principal language' speakers, other than people with some special interest in Japan, will know who 'Emperor Showa' is. End of discussion. Feel free to try and change the general policy - I'd be more than happy to support you in that (and of course we'd change this to 'Emperor Showa' if it passed).
Also, I feel it's slightly disrespectful to have all the others at 'Emperor <so-and-so', and him at plain old 'Hirohito', so I would cheerfully support moving the article to 'Emperor Hirohito' (and yes, I know that no such term exists in Japanese). That would also allow us to make 'Hirohito' a disambiguation page.
Noel
(talk)
13:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Below is a list of English language resources using either Emperor Shōwa or Emperor Showa. In an attempt to provide high quality resources, I attempted to list only published books and journals, although with so many resources, a few may have slipped though.
Bendono ( talk) 12:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Much has been said about common name. However, please notice that common name (see WP:NC(CN)) is immaterial to this case. That guideline state:
The principal exception is in the case of naming royalty and people with titles.
This links to WP:NCNT. While there are many instructions, WP:NCNT ultimately states:
These conventions do not apply to Eastern and Polynesian civilizations. See also: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (China-related articles), Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles), Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Thailand-related articles)."
Thus, the guideline relevant here is Wikipedia:MOS-JA#Names_of_emperors.
If the issue can not be resolved here, perhaps it should be rediscussed at WP:MOS-JP. Bendono ( talk) 13:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
The unnameable present subject is royalty and has a title. Thus, it is an exception. WP:NC(CN) says nothing about "westerners". Please re-read the guidelines.The principal exception is in the case of naming royalty and people with titles. For details of the naming conventions in those cases, see the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) page.
The present subject is royalty and has a title. So, per the guideline, we ignore WP:NC(CN) and move on to WP:NCNT which quite clearly states:The principal exception is in the case of naming royalty and people with titles. For details of the naming conventions in those cases, see the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) page.
Again, this is very clear and in spirit with the guidelines. Specifically, which part of the interpretation are you having difficulty with? If you disagree with the guidelines, then take them up at the respective venues; this is not the right place. Here we just apply them. Bendono ( talk) 00:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)These conventions do not apply to Eastern and Polynesian civilizations. See also: [...] Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) [...].
I have been involved with developing WP:NCNT. The exception there stated for Eastern and Polynesian civilizations is meant to say that no detailed instruction in that page is applicable to, for example, Japan. Forget them. Forget also the basis for standardizing Western monarchs, because similar need does not exist with Japanese monarchs. The exception returns the matter nicely to Wikipedia's general naming instruction, WP:NC(CN). Which should be leading principle always. WP:MOS-JP is such a small thing, it does not govern, or, rather, it gets altered if another naming convention for Japanese monarchs wins consensus. That said, there is certain wisdom in the current instruction there, with Hirohito. I am not eager to alter it. Shilkanni ( talk) 17:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
. Also noticeFor Japanese emperors before Emperor Hirohito [...]
Claiming wikilawyering does not exempt you from proving that Hirohito is the most common form. Also, the information needs to be WP:V. Reviewing this thread, I seem to be the only one who has provided any published English language resources (for all three names). Bendono ( talk) 03:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)The word Emperor is an integral part of the name and not merely a title, so it should be capitalized and the article the should not appear before it.
- Although posthumously named Emperor Shōwa, Hirohito can be called Emperor Hirohito (or simply Hirohito), as this continues to be the most widely known name for him in the West. Similarly, the current emperor may be referred to as Emperor Akihito, or just Akihito. It is incorrect to refer to him as Emperor Heisei, as he will not be renamed Heisei until after his death.
So plain Hirohito is really not acceptable until later in the article. I slightly disagree, but at least that is what our guidelines say. Bendono ( talk) 03:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)The word Emperor is an integral part of the name and not merely a title, so it should be capitalized and the article the should not appear before it. It is also acceptable to refer to a Japanese emperor without "Emperor", so long as the first appearance of the name uses the above format.
Uhhuh. Wikilawyering. AFAIK when a couple of years ago the Japanese MOS was built, the idea of Emperor being a part of the name actually was grounded on the fact that it is part of the posthumous name, such as Meiji tenno. = Emperor Meiji. In this sense, Hirohito and Akihito are exceptions, because the word tenno is not generally attached to those names. anyone who knows anything of Japanese usages, knows that there should not be appellations "Hirohito tenno", "Akihito tenno" (deep laughing, sounds of disgust...). Then, we can speak volumes, indeed forever, how tenable actually that "Emperor" is as translation of "tenno" - but some forced it upon us as its official translation for Wikipedia purposes. So, forget any specific obligation to use Emperor as part of name when Hirohito, Akihito, Yoshihito, Mutsuhito (and if ever their predecessors get mentioned by personal name and not by posthumous or regnal name) are in question.
Why do I feel that these issues here are discussed by editors who actually know next to nothing on English appellations' grounds in Japanese usages, but eagerly seek their basis from MOS which is not as informative as it could.
Shilkanni (
talk)
19:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
At this point, I must conclude that Bendono is misquoting our guidelines intentionally, and is acting in good faith only in the sense that he genuinely believes that his actions subserve the Most Important Thing. I strongly oppose any move of this article, and will cheerfully endorse an RFC on his conduct. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:56, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Below I have attempted to summarize the above options and related issues.
Hirohito
Pros:
Cons:
Emperor Hirohito
Pros:
Cons:
Emperor Shōwa
Pros:
Cons:
Bendono ( talk) 13:24, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
[Regarding disambiguating Hirohito]: Oh, please. This is a clear example of a primary topic. john k ( talk) 22:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)Ċ
If it's not too late to make a difference, I vote for Hirohito or Emperor Hirohito. The rest of you can tangle over the details. I am opposed to calling him anything with Showa in it. That's not what we know him as. And all of you know it. Even those of you who, for whatever reasons, pretend that he should be known in this English language version of Wikipedia as anything other than Hirohito. It's that simple. Give it up and move on and stop gnawing on this dead bone. JGC1010 ( talk) 02:21, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I hadn't realized that a vote was taking place. What follows is not a vote.
We've been shown evidence that "Emperor Showa" and "Showa Emperor" are both common in recently published books and that if combined they are commoner than "Emperor Hirohito". (Combinations with "Shōwa" weren't mentioned.) I'm not particularly impressed by this evidence, but it seems undeniable that "Showa" is common while "Hirohito" remains common. And my guess is that Showa/Shōwa is going to become commoner.
Showa now redirects to Shōwa, which is a disambiguation page. One of the items is Shōwa period (which, as you'll all know, ran from 1926, but whose article is bizarrely illustrated with a photo of good ol' boys from sixty years earlier). This Shōwa is of course phonetically and orthographically identical to the Shōwa of the dead emperor. So all in all "Shōwa" seems perfectly fine for him too. Whether you stick the rather odd but conventional (mis)translation "Emperor" before or after "Shōwa" seems of minor importance; might as well regularize it with what's done for his, er, father (was Taishō really capable of such a virile deed?) and beyond. -- Hoary ( talk) 09:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I strongly oppose the moving of this article to “Emperor Showa”. That’s because doing so would be a completely artificial bowing to a partial, unbalanced, Japanese-nationalist-centered version of things. In fact, practically nobody outside Japan calls Hirohito "Showa". And, obviously, the immense majotrity of the people who effectively uses and speaks the English language know Emperor Hirohito as… Hirohito. I know that the traditional naming system can make all sense to patriotics of Japan, but sorry, Wikipedia is not a Shinto shrine…
Let’s get down to the facts. Making a search "Emperor Showa" versus "Emperor Hirohito" gave me the following results:
In my opinion, the article should remain at Hirohito or moved to a more explaining title like Emperor Hirohito. That’s it.-- MaGioZal ( talk) 06:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
First, that's a much more balanced and less emotional from-the-hip response. And yes, no need to apologize for slips. It is common practice to note things like that when making direct quotes, so no need to take it personally. Nothing personal was intended by it, and I certainly make typos and slips, even in my native language, all the time.
It seems that your opposition is focused primarily on those who prefer Emperor Showa out of some sign of respect. I have not (and do not intend to) read all of the ink that has been spilled on this topic above (this argument gets repeated on Wikipedia regularly), but I don't think the primary reason people are arguing in favor of changing it to Emperor Showa is to demonstrate respect. I think accuracy (since that is now his name, after all) and consistency with the 100 some odd other emperor articles are probably the primary reasons. And I think accuracy trumps convention in something like an encyclopedia. If you are just writing your own book or article, by all means, use whatever you prefer. In an encyclopedia, however, one demands accuracy. And the beauty of Wikipedia is that you can provide links to the admittedly very large number of people who are probably going to go searching for "Hirohito".- Jefu ( talk) 01:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Since it seems that this discussion is not ending, I'll help keep it going by expressing my opinion again. I think it's important to acquaint the reader with the concept of regnal names and to inform him that Showa, or Enlightened Peace, is the regnal name of the deceased Emperor Hirohito, or perhaps it is the name of the era during which he reigned. A mention of this at the beginning of the page is sufficient, along with redirects, which are present in the article now. Aside from that mention, I believe strongly, very strongly, that only the name Hirohito should be used for the emperor...throughout the entire article. We come here to read about him, because of his role while he was alive. We know of him in history as Hirohito. His era was given the name of Enlightened Peace after he died. We know him as an emperor. We do not know him as Tenno, or a Tenno, whatever the proper way to express it is in English. We know him as Emperor Hirohito. JGC1010 ( talk) 03:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Have to say I am bemused by this. Hirohito is vastly more well known as his name than the post-mortem name of Showa. Even if we decided to go by official name, why is a name given to him after his death by others more official than say, Michinomiya Hirohito? In cases like this other encyclopedias are a good place to check, with Encarta and Brittanica both prefering Hirohito (Britannica even gives Michinomiya Hirohito before Showa in the alternate names), probably other encyclopedias too. Narson ( talk) 09:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I already expressed my point of view earlier on this, but your suggestion is the worst of the three possible choices. It is not "slightly disrespectful" but mostlty unrational... Hirohito is a personal name while emperor Shōwa is an official/political one. Combining a personal name with "tenno" is absurd. It is not similar to emperor Frederick of Hohenstaufen or any other occidental emperor who were know by their personnal name while ruling. As User:Švitrigaila already wrote, it would be like calling Benedict XVI "pope Joseph Ratzinger". I would greatly prefer keeping Hirohito alone even if it is far from perfect... -- Flying tiger ( talk) 16:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
(Please correct if I've missed or misrepresented your opinion.)
19-13 against. A vote does not constitute a consensus, but that even a split shows that there is no consensus for a page name change at this time. -- Meyer ( talk) 05:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
I still agree with reasoning of WP:MOS-JP in regsd to Hirohito. In other words, the English Wikipedia should name his article using the most common name he is known with in Western world. I accept both Hirohito and Hirohito, Emperor Showa for use as name of this article. Let there be no uncertainty that I oppose strongly any leaving "Hirohito" away from the article name. Shilkanni ( talk) 17:41, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Hirohito is the most appropriate name for this article. It is the name most commonly associated with the subject in sources originating in the English-speaking world. English usage trumps Japanese usage because the subject is a figure of world history and the English usage is established in a large body of works concerning him created outside Japan. Hirohito is even the name under which the Emperor published marine biology texts in English during his lifetime. It is true that this usage is incorrect by Japanese standards, but propogating Japanese usage into current English is not the mission of Wikipedia. It is true that this usage is inconsistent with the naming of rulers of other countries and other periods of Japanese history, but that is the nature of the English language. Further, Hirohito should also be preferred usage in the body of the article, though a discussion of "Showa Tenno" and Japanese usage is called for. -- Meyer ( talk) 09:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
There are other Hirohito, including (but not limited to):
Regardless of the chosen title, Hirohito should be a disambiguation page. As such, there are better, more descriptive and appropriate names for this emperor as well. Bendono ( talk) 03:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Above there is an assertion that the emperor is commonly known just as Hirohito. That may or may not be, but he is also just as commonly known as Emperor Hirohito. Here is a quick list of professionally published English language resources to back the point:
Bendono ( talk) 06:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually this article should be called Hirohito of Japan. In fact all the Japanese emperor/empress regnant articles should be X of Japan. That's how the other monarch biographies are styled ('monarch name' of 'country'). GoodDay ( talk) 17:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Nobody calls George VI "Albert" after his accession, nor does anyone call the pope "Ratzinger" anymore. The situation with Hirohito is different. As to "of Japan" that is entirely unnecessary - "of Country" is only used for countries where a name might be reused in different countries - we specifically say Christian and Muslim rulers, I believe. There is no other Hirohito, no other Meiji, no other Qianlong Emperor, and so forth, so no need to use country names. john k ( talk) 18:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like to point out that other articles on Japanese monarchs give their title - e.g. Empress Suiko. So I think we should use that here. As for the name used, I think it should be "Showa". So I would plump for "Emperor Showa". John Smith's ( talk) 18:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I support either leaving the article here (at Hirohito) or moving it to Emperor Hirohito due to common usage. Those two forms are by far the most common way to refer to this person, though I give preference to Hirohito I believethat usage is a little more common than the other. Emperor Showa, Emperor Shouwa, and Emperor Shōwa should all redirect here. If someone wants to create redirects for Hirohito of Japan and Shōwa of Japan, I'd be fine with that, though I have never seen either used in anything. Not even once (until this discussion). ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Wow, I guess all the people who thought this guy was (Emperor) Hirohito were wrong. He was really...well, we'll have to let the expert inform us of that...repeatedly. What must his life have been like, having to use the wrong name while he was alive? Only in death did he find his real identity apparently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.110.244 ( talk) 22:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
As I mentioned before, The Encyclopædia Britannica, PBS, TIME magazine Asia edition, The BBC, and Encarta all refer to him as Hirohito or Emperor Hirohito, I know some individual authors may refer to him in other manners, but I'd say those are pretty reliable, independent, English-language sources of what is the most-common name of an individual. MBisanz talk 01:41, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I support the official name : Emperor Shōwa. It is time Wikipedia use the correct appellation and there is no problem about some users unable to find the article as, with the miracle of technology, Hirohito should redirect here. As for emperor Hirohito, I strongly reject it as Hirohito is his personnal name, not his regal name. I would prefer keeping Hirohito than this. -- Flying tiger ( talk) 03:06, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
English language media utilize the Emperor's given name (Hirohito) more often than the official name given by the Japanese government (Emperor Shōwa). As per WP:NC(CN), the more common usage in the English language is what is used over any official or full name, which in this case is Hirohito. "Emperor Hirohito" is used most after just "Hirohito" and "Emperor Shōwa/Showa/Shouwa" are practically unheard of in regular English usage. While they are used, they aren't as used as "Hirohito" so the page should remain where it currently is.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍) 07:18, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
"Hirohito" is only a first name, as can be seen with other articles with that name. The emperor should be moved to "Emperor Hirohito" or "Emperor Showa", and a disambiguation page for the names, see Michiko for example. Gryffindor 20:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
All the Japanese emperor/empress regnants should be moved to their 'living names', as these articles are mainley about them when they were alive. Let the Japanese Wikipedia worry about 'living/dead names' titles. GoodDay ( talk) 16:25, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Jeepers, it was just a suggestion. My intent wasn't to make us look like morons. I hope we leave out those 'cubes' in the names. GoodDay ( talk) 17:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
The diacritics. If Showa is used (which shouldn't be) it must not be spelt as S-h-square-w-a. GoodDay ( talk) 20:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
<Resetting left margin...>
I've never been happy about the Wikipedia naming policy (I'd rather have articles at the most accurate name, and redirects from the 'common' name, so that e.g. the article would be at
Lorenzo di Piero de' Medici, with a redirect from
Lorenzo de' Medici), but as long as we have the 'most common version' rule, let's follow it. Basically nobody in the world of 'English as a principal language' speakers, other than people with some special interest in Japan, will know who 'Emperor Showa' is. End of discussion. Feel free to try and change the general policy - I'd be more than happy to support you in that (and of course we'd change this to 'Emperor Showa' if it passed).
Also, I feel it's slightly disrespectful to have all the others at 'Emperor <so-and-so', and him at plain old 'Hirohito', so I would cheerfully support moving the article to 'Emperor Hirohito' (and yes, I know that no such term exists in Japanese). That would also allow us to make 'Hirohito' a disambiguation page.
Noel
(talk)
13:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Below is a list of English language resources using either Emperor Shōwa or Emperor Showa. In an attempt to provide high quality resources, I attempted to list only published books and journals, although with so many resources, a few may have slipped though.
Bendono ( talk) 12:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Much has been said about common name. However, please notice that common name (see WP:NC(CN)) is immaterial to this case. That guideline state:
The principal exception is in the case of naming royalty and people with titles.
This links to WP:NCNT. While there are many instructions, WP:NCNT ultimately states:
These conventions do not apply to Eastern and Polynesian civilizations. See also: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (China-related articles), Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles), Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Thailand-related articles)."
Thus, the guideline relevant here is Wikipedia:MOS-JA#Names_of_emperors.
If the issue can not be resolved here, perhaps it should be rediscussed at WP:MOS-JP. Bendono ( talk) 13:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
The unnameable present subject is royalty and has a title. Thus, it is an exception. WP:NC(CN) says nothing about "westerners". Please re-read the guidelines.The principal exception is in the case of naming royalty and people with titles. For details of the naming conventions in those cases, see the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) page.
The present subject is royalty and has a title. So, per the guideline, we ignore WP:NC(CN) and move on to WP:NCNT which quite clearly states:The principal exception is in the case of naming royalty and people with titles. For details of the naming conventions in those cases, see the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) page.
Again, this is very clear and in spirit with the guidelines. Specifically, which part of the interpretation are you having difficulty with? If you disagree with the guidelines, then take them up at the respective venues; this is not the right place. Here we just apply them. Bendono ( talk) 00:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)These conventions do not apply to Eastern and Polynesian civilizations. See also: [...] Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) [...].
I have been involved with developing WP:NCNT. The exception there stated for Eastern and Polynesian civilizations is meant to say that no detailed instruction in that page is applicable to, for example, Japan. Forget them. Forget also the basis for standardizing Western monarchs, because similar need does not exist with Japanese monarchs. The exception returns the matter nicely to Wikipedia's general naming instruction, WP:NC(CN). Which should be leading principle always. WP:MOS-JP is such a small thing, it does not govern, or, rather, it gets altered if another naming convention for Japanese monarchs wins consensus. That said, there is certain wisdom in the current instruction there, with Hirohito. I am not eager to alter it. Shilkanni ( talk) 17:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
. Also noticeFor Japanese emperors before Emperor Hirohito [...]
Claiming wikilawyering does not exempt you from proving that Hirohito is the most common form. Also, the information needs to be WP:V. Reviewing this thread, I seem to be the only one who has provided any published English language resources (for all three names). Bendono ( talk) 03:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)The word Emperor is an integral part of the name and not merely a title, so it should be capitalized and the article the should not appear before it.
- Although posthumously named Emperor Shōwa, Hirohito can be called Emperor Hirohito (or simply Hirohito), as this continues to be the most widely known name for him in the West. Similarly, the current emperor may be referred to as Emperor Akihito, or just Akihito. It is incorrect to refer to him as Emperor Heisei, as he will not be renamed Heisei until after his death.
So plain Hirohito is really not acceptable until later in the article. I slightly disagree, but at least that is what our guidelines say. Bendono ( talk) 03:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)The word Emperor is an integral part of the name and not merely a title, so it should be capitalized and the article the should not appear before it. It is also acceptable to refer to a Japanese emperor without "Emperor", so long as the first appearance of the name uses the above format.
Uhhuh. Wikilawyering. AFAIK when a couple of years ago the Japanese MOS was built, the idea of Emperor being a part of the name actually was grounded on the fact that it is part of the posthumous name, such as Meiji tenno. = Emperor Meiji. In this sense, Hirohito and Akihito are exceptions, because the word tenno is not generally attached to those names. anyone who knows anything of Japanese usages, knows that there should not be appellations "Hirohito tenno", "Akihito tenno" (deep laughing, sounds of disgust...). Then, we can speak volumes, indeed forever, how tenable actually that "Emperor" is as translation of "tenno" - but some forced it upon us as its official translation for Wikipedia purposes. So, forget any specific obligation to use Emperor as part of name when Hirohito, Akihito, Yoshihito, Mutsuhito (and if ever their predecessors get mentioned by personal name and not by posthumous or regnal name) are in question.
Why do I feel that these issues here are discussed by editors who actually know next to nothing on English appellations' grounds in Japanese usages, but eagerly seek their basis from MOS which is not as informative as it could.
Shilkanni (
talk)
19:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
At this point, I must conclude that Bendono is misquoting our guidelines intentionally, and is acting in good faith only in the sense that he genuinely believes that his actions subserve the Most Important Thing. I strongly oppose any move of this article, and will cheerfully endorse an RFC on his conduct. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:56, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Below I have attempted to summarize the above options and related issues.
Hirohito
Pros:
Cons:
Emperor Hirohito
Pros:
Cons:
Emperor Shōwa
Pros:
Cons:
Bendono ( talk) 13:24, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
[Regarding disambiguating Hirohito]: Oh, please. This is a clear example of a primary topic. john k ( talk) 22:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)Ċ
If it's not too late to make a difference, I vote for Hirohito or Emperor Hirohito. The rest of you can tangle over the details. I am opposed to calling him anything with Showa in it. That's not what we know him as. And all of you know it. Even those of you who, for whatever reasons, pretend that he should be known in this English language version of Wikipedia as anything other than Hirohito. It's that simple. Give it up and move on and stop gnawing on this dead bone. JGC1010 ( talk) 02:21, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I hadn't realized that a vote was taking place. What follows is not a vote.
We've been shown evidence that "Emperor Showa" and "Showa Emperor" are both common in recently published books and that if combined they are commoner than "Emperor Hirohito". (Combinations with "Shōwa" weren't mentioned.) I'm not particularly impressed by this evidence, but it seems undeniable that "Showa" is common while "Hirohito" remains common. And my guess is that Showa/Shōwa is going to become commoner.
Showa now redirects to Shōwa, which is a disambiguation page. One of the items is Shōwa period (which, as you'll all know, ran from 1926, but whose article is bizarrely illustrated with a photo of good ol' boys from sixty years earlier). This Shōwa is of course phonetically and orthographically identical to the Shōwa of the dead emperor. So all in all "Shōwa" seems perfectly fine for him too. Whether you stick the rather odd but conventional (mis)translation "Emperor" before or after "Shōwa" seems of minor importance; might as well regularize it with what's done for his, er, father (was Taishō really capable of such a virile deed?) and beyond. -- Hoary ( talk) 09:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I strongly oppose the moving of this article to “Emperor Showa”. That’s because doing so would be a completely artificial bowing to a partial, unbalanced, Japanese-nationalist-centered version of things. In fact, practically nobody outside Japan calls Hirohito "Showa". And, obviously, the immense majotrity of the people who effectively uses and speaks the English language know Emperor Hirohito as… Hirohito. I know that the traditional naming system can make all sense to patriotics of Japan, but sorry, Wikipedia is not a Shinto shrine…
Let’s get down to the facts. Making a search "Emperor Showa" versus "Emperor Hirohito" gave me the following results:
In my opinion, the article should remain at Hirohito or moved to a more explaining title like Emperor Hirohito. That’s it.-- MaGioZal ( talk) 06:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
First, that's a much more balanced and less emotional from-the-hip response. And yes, no need to apologize for slips. It is common practice to note things like that when making direct quotes, so no need to take it personally. Nothing personal was intended by it, and I certainly make typos and slips, even in my native language, all the time.
It seems that your opposition is focused primarily on those who prefer Emperor Showa out of some sign of respect. I have not (and do not intend to) read all of the ink that has been spilled on this topic above (this argument gets repeated on Wikipedia regularly), but I don't think the primary reason people are arguing in favor of changing it to Emperor Showa is to demonstrate respect. I think accuracy (since that is now his name, after all) and consistency with the 100 some odd other emperor articles are probably the primary reasons. And I think accuracy trumps convention in something like an encyclopedia. If you are just writing your own book or article, by all means, use whatever you prefer. In an encyclopedia, however, one demands accuracy. And the beauty of Wikipedia is that you can provide links to the admittedly very large number of people who are probably going to go searching for "Hirohito".- Jefu ( talk) 01:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Since it seems that this discussion is not ending, I'll help keep it going by expressing my opinion again. I think it's important to acquaint the reader with the concept of regnal names and to inform him that Showa, or Enlightened Peace, is the regnal name of the deceased Emperor Hirohito, or perhaps it is the name of the era during which he reigned. A mention of this at the beginning of the page is sufficient, along with redirects, which are present in the article now. Aside from that mention, I believe strongly, very strongly, that only the name Hirohito should be used for the emperor...throughout the entire article. We come here to read about him, because of his role while he was alive. We know of him in history as Hirohito. His era was given the name of Enlightened Peace after he died. We know him as an emperor. We do not know him as Tenno, or a Tenno, whatever the proper way to express it is in English. We know him as Emperor Hirohito. JGC1010 ( talk) 03:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Have to say I am bemused by this. Hirohito is vastly more well known as his name than the post-mortem name of Showa. Even if we decided to go by official name, why is a name given to him after his death by others more official than say, Michinomiya Hirohito? In cases like this other encyclopedias are a good place to check, with Encarta and Brittanica both prefering Hirohito (Britannica even gives Michinomiya Hirohito before Showa in the alternate names), probably other encyclopedias too. Narson ( talk) 09:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I already expressed my point of view earlier on this, but your suggestion is the worst of the three possible choices. It is not "slightly disrespectful" but mostlty unrational... Hirohito is a personal name while emperor Shōwa is an official/political one. Combining a personal name with "tenno" is absurd. It is not similar to emperor Frederick of Hohenstaufen or any other occidental emperor who were know by their personnal name while ruling. As User:Švitrigaila already wrote, it would be like calling Benedict XVI "pope Joseph Ratzinger". I would greatly prefer keeping Hirohito alone even if it is far from perfect... -- Flying tiger ( talk) 16:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
(Please correct if I've missed or misrepresented your opinion.)
19-13 against. A vote does not constitute a consensus, but that even a split shows that there is no consensus for a page name change at this time. -- Meyer ( talk) 05:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)