![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
please look up Wikipedia rules on naming monarchs [ [1]]
Taku could you please stop removing the move proposals? i wrote my ideas at the bottom Bhinneka 29 June 2005 12:13 (UTC)
I removed this description of Bix's (possible) bias from the list of books:
because I don't think it's accurate (if you look through the source notes from Bix's book, he does refer to some works from these publishers, but he also references many other sources, including contemporary diaries and other such documents). His text does not seem to many "traditional" leftish POVs (see, e.g. his treatment of Japanese surrender feelers, pp. 505-511), but even if he is, the copious sourcing allows one to see where his data comes from, and come to an independent assessment of his conclusions. Noel (talk) 17:11, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have a question. The last part of the article said that doctors did not tell the Emperor of his cancer in accordance with Japanese tradition. What does this mean? I feel that such a statement requires some explanation, as the average reader is not going to go "oh they must mean the Japanese tradition of...." but might think something more along the lines of "Japanese culture is weird." Can anyone clarify?? The lesbian 01:55, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The responsibility of the war. Where, when and how was this issue "talked" out? It was pretty clear the Emperor of Japan lost power when the Japan's parliament was shut down. Tojo and cabinet was the "shogun" that took Japan to war. There was no thing really Showa could have done in that situation. It is definitely historical fact that Showa made the first radio broadcast for an Emperor.
http://www.glocom.org/books_and_journals/book_reviews/20010726_com_hirohito/
That book was just another angry American telling his point of view. -- Masssiveego
You know, he wasn't really either a puppet or a mastermind. The analogy that feels best to me is that of a guy who is a friend of bank robbers. He rides along in the back seat of the car and waits in the car while his friends rob the bank. A bank guard gets killed, but it wasn't he who did it. He was sitting in the car when it happened. The Japanese war and attrocities of the 30's and 40's were masterminded by Tojo, Anami, and their ilk. Hirohito was along for the ride. He is no more or no less guilty than the guy sitting in the back seat of the getaway car while his acquaintences shoot up and rob the bank.
The article doesn't represent Steven Large/Charles Sheldon's view that the Emperor rubber stamped policy due to his strong belief in constitutional monarchy representing the consensus. In this way, he was (possibly/probably) opposed to war, but preferred war to going against the constitution. An alternative view is also offered by Peter Wetzler that his actions were consistently guided by a desire to protect and uphold the imperial family (and their role in the state)
I think the article should be renamed Emperor Showa of Japan or Hirohito, Emperor Showa of Japan, and Hirohito should redirect to it. Some conventions discussed and practiced here seemed weird. at33
Hi. Would you tell me why "you think" the current title Hirohito is correct?? at33
I find the article name offensive. The Japanese people simply do not call the Emperor by His given name. Okay, okay, I know that this is an encyclopedia; and if a title must be so, then it must be so, offensive to some group of people or not. But then again, I see no reason why the title "must" be "Hirohito". It may not be the personal name, but who says it has to be? 朝彦 (Asahiko) 11:26, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
I think I can see Asahiko's point. In wikipedia, if there is an official name, we tend to use it. For example, just recently, we have renamed Mac OS X 10.4 to Mac OS X v10.4 "Tiger" even though it is commonly referred as Mac OS X 10.4 or just Tiger and done the same things for the like. But if we are to use names but Hirohito, the same questions remain: why, say Showa emperor? I know Japanese people use this name, but then we have an article Japan instead of Nippon. I guess I stand corrected. Hirohito may not be a correct article title, but what's an alternative? -- Taku 22:42, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
The following is moved from my talkpage.
Well, I have not seen the renaming as consensus. A couple of people do not constitute a majority. As said above, I can see the article title Hirohito may be problematic, but showa emperor is not an alternative we have agreed. Just let me know if there is a ongoing discussion I am not aware of. -- Taku 12:58, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
Surely this is arguable. I mean, what about Emperor Meiji? (Or should I call him "Mutsuhito", just to be awkward and disrespectful?) elvenscout742 14:34, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
I just came here to ask about this same thing. I don't know more than the basics of Japanese history but I thought of the Meiji Era when I saw this. If historians are near unanimous on this point then fair enough, but are they? In any case I don't think it's immediately obvious that the importance of Hirohito's reign exceeds all others when you consider the changes of the Meiji period, and since you say it's close to a toss-up I think I'd prefer to see this statement qualified somehow, but I'll leave it up to those who really know about this kind of thing. — Trilobite ( Talk) 21:48, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Personally I think that honor goes to General MacArthur...
Should an inclusion of a personal description of the Emperor be included? After reading the page I've only gotten an historical perspective...
Can I expand on the blurb about Marine biology, should we mention that he kept a bust of Charles Darwin?
Does this statement conform to NPOV? I mean, I personally am with pretty much every educated person in believing this statement to be true, but what wabout the legendary Emperors in the Kojiki that ruled for around ninety years? Would a phrase like "it is accepted by most historians that his reign was the longest of Japanese Emperors" not be better? elvenscout742 21:43, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
And I just noticed it refers to him as the 124th according to the traditional order. This means that, at least in the sentence two lines down from that statement, it probably shouldn't directly contradict that. elvenscout742 23:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Maybe people dont want me clogging up this page with pointless messages, but i just want to thank whoever wrote this article. It has helped me write a whole essay which is worth 40% of my A-Level grade and has made life a lot easier for me.
I think Emperor Hirohito was the most famous imperial ruler of Japan I think because he had the longest reign,and did what all the Japanese people did and it was succesful.Anyway,heaps of Koreans hate Hirohito because when he grew up,he came to Korea around 1933 and killed ten thousands of Koreans.In 1939(when World War 2started)he came back and went to the war or went back to Japan(I think.)
User: Dark-hooded smoker
Hirohito met the royal english family in London in 1921.
-- Flying tiger 16:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
"大行" is "Taikō", not "Taigyō". see this citation [3]. "Taikō" means "the emperor who has gone away", i.e., "the former emperor".-- Questionfromjapan 01:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The Japanese article links him to Boy Scouting, in what context? Chris 01:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
It appears that the wrong template was added to this article. Citecheck is designed for articles that have misused citations in some way, such as when an article claims an author took one opinion and the source shows the author expressed the opposite opinion. I don't see that sort of dispute here. Durova 01:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
hi Taku. nope sorry, it´s not. in Japan he is not known as "Hirohito". even by current Wikipedia rules, that name is incorrect anyways. it´s either "Emperor Hirohito" or "Hirohito of Japan". i used the title "Showa Emperor" because that´s what he is being called now in Japan, just like "Meiji-Tenno". i am aware about the discussion, it seems that the majority in that forum favours a renaming. "Hirohito" in itself cannot stand, as a person who is not too familiar with Japan might not even know what this means? besides it´s kinda disrespectful on top of that Bhinneka 12:56, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for mess of conversation; we should stick discussing this matter here. Anyway, while you make some good arguments, I want to respect the discussion we had long time ago. Basically the arguments are summarized to:
-- Taku 13:16, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
monarchs have to be listed a certain way, i can give you the link to the rules [4]
"Monarchical titles. Pre-emptively disambiguate the names of monarchs, of modern countries in the format "{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}". Examples: Edward I of England; Alfonso XII of Spain; Henry I of France; Cleopatra VII of Egypt. Where there has only been one holder of a specific monarchical name in a state, the ordinal is used only when the ordinal was in official use. For example, Victoria of the United Kingdom, not Victoria I of the United Kingdom; Juan Carlos I of Spain, not Juan Carlos of Spain."
all set? the example you gave of Akihito is not valid anyways, see rule above. and of course it does not make sense to put Junichiro Koizumi as something else as he was not a monarch. and you gave the example of Prince Shotoku which is fine with me. but then you can´t put Hirohito like that, according that rule he would have to be listed at least as Emperor Hirohito. i mean we can talk about this, but i think the wikipedia rules are quite clear.. Bhinneka 29 June 2005 12:08 (UTC)
In my opinion, we have following options:
Is there any option I am missing? (I don't mean to be sarcastic.) -- Taku June 30, 2005 01:29 (UTC)
I'm weighing in as another opinion in favor of renaming this very badly titled article. Arguments in favor are:
- Jefu 12:40, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Just my two cents, but I'm doing a eulogy for a class project on Emperor Hirohito, and so far the only time I've seen Emperor Showa is as a subtopic or alternative name. If this article was in the Japanese Wikipedia, I might say Emperor Showa is better, but as this is in English, Emperor Hirohito seems to be the better choice. He is known more widely under that name for purposes of histories and articles. www.googlefight.com match up Emperor Hirohito v. Emperor Showa and Emp. Hirohito wins. However, just Hirohito, while not earth-shattering, is a little disrespectful to such an influential man. Emperor Hirohito or the like should be the title. -Kill Mage 71.241.224.245 00:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I really don't get this whole taboo about not referring to Hirohito by his given name. Maybe we're being overly politically correct. Like people getting upset over images of Muhammad. In fact, the English Muhamed article doesn't use "(pbuh)" right after mentioning his name. 71.140.117.137 09:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Hirohito's monogamy and abolishment of concubinage in 1924 has modern relevance to the current imperial problems of succession.
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 22:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Responding to comment left on my talk page
Hi, I simply do not understand your comment about "in line citations" in the article. This text has more citations and references than any article on Wikipedia...
--Flying tiger 14:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
For the benefit of comparison I would direct you to look out other historical articles and their reference styles like the FA quality of
Bhumibol Adulyadej and
Mary II of England as well as the GA quality of
Condoleezza Rice. But most importantly, it undercited for the benefit of the GA criteria. Unfortunately, I don't have time to go through and add {fact} tags to every little thing that would need a cite but with a brief overview, the glaring stand outs are the entire sections of Early life, Accession (both should also probably be expanded for GA benefit too) having no in-line citations. Death also has no citations when there are a couple areas that need it. (Never told about his illness?) The citations in The problem of imperial responsibility could do a little tidying in accordance to
WP:CITE (I strongly recommend utilizing the footnote tag. Early Reign has only cites in one paragraphs when there are important claims preceeding it that the reader doesn't know if those "sources" verifying them or not. After the first paragraph Post-war reign does not have any sources. World War II and Last days of the war have similar issues to the "Imperial respsonsibility" section with long gaps between sources and important claims in between.
How can one repulse a coming invasion? Does anyone know what this means?-- 68.175.39.163 18:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
please look up Wikipedia rules on naming monarchs [ [1]]
Taku could you please stop removing the move proposals? i wrote my ideas at the bottom Bhinneka 29 June 2005 12:13 (UTC)
I removed this description of Bix's (possible) bias from the list of books:
because I don't think it's accurate (if you look through the source notes from Bix's book, he does refer to some works from these publishers, but he also references many other sources, including contemporary diaries and other such documents). His text does not seem to many "traditional" leftish POVs (see, e.g. his treatment of Japanese surrender feelers, pp. 505-511), but even if he is, the copious sourcing allows one to see where his data comes from, and come to an independent assessment of his conclusions. Noel (talk) 17:11, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have a question. The last part of the article said that doctors did not tell the Emperor of his cancer in accordance with Japanese tradition. What does this mean? I feel that such a statement requires some explanation, as the average reader is not going to go "oh they must mean the Japanese tradition of...." but might think something more along the lines of "Japanese culture is weird." Can anyone clarify?? The lesbian 01:55, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The responsibility of the war. Where, when and how was this issue "talked" out? It was pretty clear the Emperor of Japan lost power when the Japan's parliament was shut down. Tojo and cabinet was the "shogun" that took Japan to war. There was no thing really Showa could have done in that situation. It is definitely historical fact that Showa made the first radio broadcast for an Emperor.
http://www.glocom.org/books_and_journals/book_reviews/20010726_com_hirohito/
That book was just another angry American telling his point of view. -- Masssiveego
You know, he wasn't really either a puppet or a mastermind. The analogy that feels best to me is that of a guy who is a friend of bank robbers. He rides along in the back seat of the car and waits in the car while his friends rob the bank. A bank guard gets killed, but it wasn't he who did it. He was sitting in the car when it happened. The Japanese war and attrocities of the 30's and 40's were masterminded by Tojo, Anami, and their ilk. Hirohito was along for the ride. He is no more or no less guilty than the guy sitting in the back seat of the getaway car while his acquaintences shoot up and rob the bank.
The article doesn't represent Steven Large/Charles Sheldon's view that the Emperor rubber stamped policy due to his strong belief in constitutional monarchy representing the consensus. In this way, he was (possibly/probably) opposed to war, but preferred war to going against the constitution. An alternative view is also offered by Peter Wetzler that his actions were consistently guided by a desire to protect and uphold the imperial family (and their role in the state)
I think the article should be renamed Emperor Showa of Japan or Hirohito, Emperor Showa of Japan, and Hirohito should redirect to it. Some conventions discussed and practiced here seemed weird. at33
Hi. Would you tell me why "you think" the current title Hirohito is correct?? at33
I find the article name offensive. The Japanese people simply do not call the Emperor by His given name. Okay, okay, I know that this is an encyclopedia; and if a title must be so, then it must be so, offensive to some group of people or not. But then again, I see no reason why the title "must" be "Hirohito". It may not be the personal name, but who says it has to be? 朝彦 (Asahiko) 11:26, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
I think I can see Asahiko's point. In wikipedia, if there is an official name, we tend to use it. For example, just recently, we have renamed Mac OS X 10.4 to Mac OS X v10.4 "Tiger" even though it is commonly referred as Mac OS X 10.4 or just Tiger and done the same things for the like. But if we are to use names but Hirohito, the same questions remain: why, say Showa emperor? I know Japanese people use this name, but then we have an article Japan instead of Nippon. I guess I stand corrected. Hirohito may not be a correct article title, but what's an alternative? -- Taku 22:42, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
The following is moved from my talkpage.
Well, I have not seen the renaming as consensus. A couple of people do not constitute a majority. As said above, I can see the article title Hirohito may be problematic, but showa emperor is not an alternative we have agreed. Just let me know if there is a ongoing discussion I am not aware of. -- Taku 12:58, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
Surely this is arguable. I mean, what about Emperor Meiji? (Or should I call him "Mutsuhito", just to be awkward and disrespectful?) elvenscout742 14:34, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
I just came here to ask about this same thing. I don't know more than the basics of Japanese history but I thought of the Meiji Era when I saw this. If historians are near unanimous on this point then fair enough, but are they? In any case I don't think it's immediately obvious that the importance of Hirohito's reign exceeds all others when you consider the changes of the Meiji period, and since you say it's close to a toss-up I think I'd prefer to see this statement qualified somehow, but I'll leave it up to those who really know about this kind of thing. — Trilobite ( Talk) 21:48, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Personally I think that honor goes to General MacArthur...
Should an inclusion of a personal description of the Emperor be included? After reading the page I've only gotten an historical perspective...
Can I expand on the blurb about Marine biology, should we mention that he kept a bust of Charles Darwin?
Does this statement conform to NPOV? I mean, I personally am with pretty much every educated person in believing this statement to be true, but what wabout the legendary Emperors in the Kojiki that ruled for around ninety years? Would a phrase like "it is accepted by most historians that his reign was the longest of Japanese Emperors" not be better? elvenscout742 21:43, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
And I just noticed it refers to him as the 124th according to the traditional order. This means that, at least in the sentence two lines down from that statement, it probably shouldn't directly contradict that. elvenscout742 23:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Maybe people dont want me clogging up this page with pointless messages, but i just want to thank whoever wrote this article. It has helped me write a whole essay which is worth 40% of my A-Level grade and has made life a lot easier for me.
I think Emperor Hirohito was the most famous imperial ruler of Japan I think because he had the longest reign,and did what all the Japanese people did and it was succesful.Anyway,heaps of Koreans hate Hirohito because when he grew up,he came to Korea around 1933 and killed ten thousands of Koreans.In 1939(when World War 2started)he came back and went to the war or went back to Japan(I think.)
User: Dark-hooded smoker
Hirohito met the royal english family in London in 1921.
-- Flying tiger 16:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
"大行" is "Taikō", not "Taigyō". see this citation [3]. "Taikō" means "the emperor who has gone away", i.e., "the former emperor".-- Questionfromjapan 01:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
The Japanese article links him to Boy Scouting, in what context? Chris 01:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
It appears that the wrong template was added to this article. Citecheck is designed for articles that have misused citations in some way, such as when an article claims an author took one opinion and the source shows the author expressed the opposite opinion. I don't see that sort of dispute here. Durova 01:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
hi Taku. nope sorry, it´s not. in Japan he is not known as "Hirohito". even by current Wikipedia rules, that name is incorrect anyways. it´s either "Emperor Hirohito" or "Hirohito of Japan". i used the title "Showa Emperor" because that´s what he is being called now in Japan, just like "Meiji-Tenno". i am aware about the discussion, it seems that the majority in that forum favours a renaming. "Hirohito" in itself cannot stand, as a person who is not too familiar with Japan might not even know what this means? besides it´s kinda disrespectful on top of that Bhinneka 12:56, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for mess of conversation; we should stick discussing this matter here. Anyway, while you make some good arguments, I want to respect the discussion we had long time ago. Basically the arguments are summarized to:
-- Taku 13:16, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
monarchs have to be listed a certain way, i can give you the link to the rules [4]
"Monarchical titles. Pre-emptively disambiguate the names of monarchs, of modern countries in the format "{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}". Examples: Edward I of England; Alfonso XII of Spain; Henry I of France; Cleopatra VII of Egypt. Where there has only been one holder of a specific monarchical name in a state, the ordinal is used only when the ordinal was in official use. For example, Victoria of the United Kingdom, not Victoria I of the United Kingdom; Juan Carlos I of Spain, not Juan Carlos of Spain."
all set? the example you gave of Akihito is not valid anyways, see rule above. and of course it does not make sense to put Junichiro Koizumi as something else as he was not a monarch. and you gave the example of Prince Shotoku which is fine with me. but then you can´t put Hirohito like that, according that rule he would have to be listed at least as Emperor Hirohito. i mean we can talk about this, but i think the wikipedia rules are quite clear.. Bhinneka 29 June 2005 12:08 (UTC)
In my opinion, we have following options:
Is there any option I am missing? (I don't mean to be sarcastic.) -- Taku June 30, 2005 01:29 (UTC)
I'm weighing in as another opinion in favor of renaming this very badly titled article. Arguments in favor are:
- Jefu 12:40, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Just my two cents, but I'm doing a eulogy for a class project on Emperor Hirohito, and so far the only time I've seen Emperor Showa is as a subtopic or alternative name. If this article was in the Japanese Wikipedia, I might say Emperor Showa is better, but as this is in English, Emperor Hirohito seems to be the better choice. He is known more widely under that name for purposes of histories and articles. www.googlefight.com match up Emperor Hirohito v. Emperor Showa and Emp. Hirohito wins. However, just Hirohito, while not earth-shattering, is a little disrespectful to such an influential man. Emperor Hirohito or the like should be the title. -Kill Mage 71.241.224.245 00:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I really don't get this whole taboo about not referring to Hirohito by his given name. Maybe we're being overly politically correct. Like people getting upset over images of Muhammad. In fact, the English Muhamed article doesn't use "(pbuh)" right after mentioning his name. 71.140.117.137 09:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Hirohito's monogamy and abolishment of concubinage in 1924 has modern relevance to the current imperial problems of succession.
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 22:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Responding to comment left on my talk page
Hi, I simply do not understand your comment about "in line citations" in the article. This text has more citations and references than any article on Wikipedia...
--Flying tiger 14:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
For the benefit of comparison I would direct you to look out other historical articles and their reference styles like the FA quality of
Bhumibol Adulyadej and
Mary II of England as well as the GA quality of
Condoleezza Rice. But most importantly, it undercited for the benefit of the GA criteria. Unfortunately, I don't have time to go through and add {fact} tags to every little thing that would need a cite but with a brief overview, the glaring stand outs are the entire sections of Early life, Accession (both should also probably be expanded for GA benefit too) having no in-line citations. Death also has no citations when there are a couple areas that need it. (Never told about his illness?) The citations in The problem of imperial responsibility could do a little tidying in accordance to
WP:CITE (I strongly recommend utilizing the footnote tag. Early Reign has only cites in one paragraphs when there are important claims preceeding it that the reader doesn't know if those "sources" verifying them or not. After the first paragraph Post-war reign does not have any sources. World War II and Last days of the war have similar issues to the "Imperial respsonsibility" section with long gaps between sources and important claims in between.
How can one repulse a coming invasion? Does anyone know what this means?-- 68.175.39.163 18:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)