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Blueboar reverted my changes of 8/28/08 with the note "please explain edit a bit on talk page ... also you talk about use in Chronicles in the section on Kings... confusing." So, to explain:
1. I didn't talk about Chronicles in the section on Kings, but rather I changed the order so that Kings was discussed before Chronicles. That's the order these books occur in the Tanakh and the order in which they were written historically.
2. Then I *did* cut a section from the end of the Kings bullet which discussed "Huram my master craftsmen" and incorporated it into the Chronicles bullet because this discussion does not apply to Kings but to the verse in Chronicles.
3. Finally, I made some improvements to the Chronicles bullet. This could probably be improved more, but I think if you look back you'll see that all of my changes were valuable and brought new information to the article, supported by credible references.
Yonderboy ( talk) 19:28, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
The version of the Hiram story that Heckthorn includes in Secret Societies of all ages is worth including... but the second paragraph on it was confusing... so I have moved it here for more discussion:
The two lines I have italicized seem to indicate that there could be some connection between Heckthorn's version and the Masonic one... if so, what is it? Is Heckthorn saying the Masonic story is based on this one (or vise versa)? Does Heckthorn's version pre-date or post date the Masonic one? Blueboar ( talk) 12:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
That phrasing is just incredibly awkward. I think it should be either "password of a Master Mason", as found in Duncan (Duncan says "pass", but we should use the whole word here), or "Master Masons' secret password". Thoughts?-- SarekOfVulcan ( talk) 15:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Here in NY we only use the word "pass" in exchanges like: Had he the pass? He had not, I had and gave it for him. Saxophobia ( talk) 20:13, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
As usual, a poorly researched article, listing all the WRONG ideas, and no hint of what is correct. None of those Hirams fit the bill, for obvious historical reasons. The 'name is not a name, but a description in a language - Egyptian of course. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.201.140.130 ( talk) 17:53, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Huram Abif appears in 2 Chronicles 2.13 in Luther's 1545 translation of the OT into German [1], and it's such a unique reading of aleph-beth-yod that there is a high likelihood that this is where the Masonic usage comes from. I think this would have formed the basis for the renderings in Henry's Great Bible, and the Matthew bible. but I am at present unable to check. Does anybody have access? Fiddlersmouth ( talk) 13:14, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
References
The source is Anderson. The first mention of Hiram Abif I can find in Masonic literature is Anderson's 1723 constitutions, where his footnotes clearly trace the name to his reading of 2 Chronicles 2.13 and 2 Chronicles 4.16. This is expanded (and referenced) in the third bullet point. It could stand further expansion with regard to 2 Chr 4.16, as I think this is actually the source of Abif (Heb. here 'abiv), but I need to do a little more reading to nail this down. Would "seems to derive" suit better?
A separate but related point:- the article could probably use a section covering the third degree and Hiram's murder, which appears in Anderson's second constitutions (1738) but not the first. Fiddlersmouth ( talk) 09:08, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Blueboar reverted my changes of 8/28/08 with the note "please explain edit a bit on talk page ... also you talk about use in Chronicles in the section on Kings... confusing." So, to explain:
1. I didn't talk about Chronicles in the section on Kings, but rather I changed the order so that Kings was discussed before Chronicles. That's the order these books occur in the Tanakh and the order in which they were written historically.
2. Then I *did* cut a section from the end of the Kings bullet which discussed "Huram my master craftsmen" and incorporated it into the Chronicles bullet because this discussion does not apply to Kings but to the verse in Chronicles.
3. Finally, I made some improvements to the Chronicles bullet. This could probably be improved more, but I think if you look back you'll see that all of my changes were valuable and brought new information to the article, supported by credible references.
Yonderboy ( talk) 19:28, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
The version of the Hiram story that Heckthorn includes in Secret Societies of all ages is worth including... but the second paragraph on it was confusing... so I have moved it here for more discussion:
The two lines I have italicized seem to indicate that there could be some connection between Heckthorn's version and the Masonic one... if so, what is it? Is Heckthorn saying the Masonic story is based on this one (or vise versa)? Does Heckthorn's version pre-date or post date the Masonic one? Blueboar ( talk) 12:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
That phrasing is just incredibly awkward. I think it should be either "password of a Master Mason", as found in Duncan (Duncan says "pass", but we should use the whole word here), or "Master Masons' secret password". Thoughts?-- SarekOfVulcan ( talk) 15:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Here in NY we only use the word "pass" in exchanges like: Had he the pass? He had not, I had and gave it for him. Saxophobia ( talk) 20:13, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
As usual, a poorly researched article, listing all the WRONG ideas, and no hint of what is correct. None of those Hirams fit the bill, for obvious historical reasons. The 'name is not a name, but a description in a language - Egyptian of course. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.201.140.130 ( talk) 17:53, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Huram Abif appears in 2 Chronicles 2.13 in Luther's 1545 translation of the OT into German [1], and it's such a unique reading of aleph-beth-yod that there is a high likelihood that this is where the Masonic usage comes from. I think this would have formed the basis for the renderings in Henry's Great Bible, and the Matthew bible. but I am at present unable to check. Does anybody have access? Fiddlersmouth ( talk) 13:14, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
References
The source is Anderson. The first mention of Hiram Abif I can find in Masonic literature is Anderson's 1723 constitutions, where his footnotes clearly trace the name to his reading of 2 Chronicles 2.13 and 2 Chronicles 4.16. This is expanded (and referenced) in the third bullet point. It could stand further expansion with regard to 2 Chr 4.16, as I think this is actually the source of Abif (Heb. here 'abiv), but I need to do a little more reading to nail this down. Would "seems to derive" suit better?
A separate but related point:- the article could probably use a section covering the third degree and Hiram's murder, which appears in Anderson's second constitutions (1738) but not the first. Fiddlersmouth ( talk) 09:08, 4 May 2012 (UTC)