This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Um, Did everyone forget 90's New Jack Swing Era of Hip Hop?! This is a major MAJOR hole in this article!!!! from about 89-94 Hip Hop went from Old School to the New School. Kid n Play (basically the CHarleston), the Robocop, the wop, The RUnningMan, the Roger Rabbit, etc... If ur gonna talk about HIP HOP DANCE, WHERE THA HECK IS 90'S NEW JACK SWING MENTIONED!?!?!
link:
[1] New Jack Swing
Link:
[2] Kid N Play, "Gittin' Funky"
Kid n Play, The Fresh Prince, Leaders of the New School, Salt n Peppa, Janet Jackson, etc were all huge (and important) innovators of what is considered Hip Hop Dance today!!!! THIS IS MORE HIP HOP THAN POPPING AND LOCKING WHICH ARE MORE FUNK STYLES THAN HIP HOP!!!! Its like saying Parliament, George Clinton, & Zapp and Roger are Hip Hop. THEY AINT! They are FUNK.
Also noteable dancers: Mop Top, Link, Budha Stretch, etc were big influences in the early 90's!! (who also happen to b huge influences in post 2000 style House Dancing.
Sheesh, WHoever wrote this article must've been born post 1999, c'mon now...they talkin bout Krumping & ABDC as Hip Hop?! (Drew Looner)
1. This article seems to have been spammed by Fox and So You Think You Can Dance people. A disproportionate amount of space is given to the show, and to something called "Lyrical Hip Hop," which has, as far as I can tell, a very tenuous existence stemming from the above show.
2. "Lyrical hip-hop" yields 629 hits on Youtube as of 8/10/09. Cwalk yields 60,000. Yet crip walk is described here as a "fad dance." Both lyrical hip hop and cwalk should be moved under Styles. The LHH section should be drastically reduced. More weight needs to be given to legitimate hip-hop choreographers like Laurie Ann Gibson, Big Lez, and Rosie Perez. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.161.233 ( talk) 08:34, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
There should be a new section called " Printable Dance Moves". You have to have dance moves for people to print. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.228.16.22 ( talk) 21:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
hip hop is one of the most danced daces in schools and culb —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.254.167 ( talk) 21:47, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
A user recently added the following under the international competitions section:
Seems like a good event but the entire thing was unsourced, not to mention it's written for hip-hop heads (rather than for a casual reader), along with the occasional misspellings and bad grammar (to all the UK people reading this, I'm not referring to the BE spelling) so I reverted the edit. I'm copying the prose to this talk page to see if anyone can find a good source about this event being an actual competition (rather than just a festival). I haven't been able to find good sources. The official website that I got off Google doesn't work. I got the message "Sorry, but you are looking for something that isn't here." Blogs and MySpace links do not count as reliable sources so I ignored those. The other web sources stated that it was a festival but said nothing about a competition. This source from 2MF magazine was OK but it made it seem like the event was more about entertaining and performing, like a festival should be, with the competitive aspect being secondary. If this is more of a country specific festival than a competition, I think it would be more appropriate in the hip-hop theater article under the festivals section. The international competitions section list 10 major events, nine of which have regional qualifying tournaments. Additions should be comparable. // Gbern3 ( talk) 03:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
As a dancer, I feel somewhat put off (though that's not exactly the right term) by the fact that this page seems to be solely about the breaking aspect of hip-hop. If you're familiar with hip-hop, you'll realize that breaking is almost a separate style of dance; it isn't necessary to know how to dance one style to dance the other. So perhaps a section could be added on the actual 'dance' part of hip-hop (I view breaking and co. to be more of acrobatic tricks than anything)? -- Zeph —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.118.52.145 ( talk) 00:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
And as ANOTHER dancer, who is a BBOY, popper, locker, krumper, turfer, memphis jooker, i can tell you, that maybe a 33.3% of breakin is acrobatic, there is MANY diff. "parts" to bboyin such as toprock, uprock, downrock, freezez, flexibility, (this is where the "acrobatics" kick in), power(flares, windmills, air flares etc) and tricking(front/back/side flips, aerials, b twists etc) NOW with that being said, "If you're familiar with hip-hop, you'll realize that breaking is almost a separate style of dance" bboying IS the original hip hop dance, im a HUGE hip hop head, and no i dont mean rick ross, plies and all those talentless losers that are mainstream, i mean old school, golden age, some early 2000s, and underground (nujabes, immortal technique, atmosphere, 2mex, aceyalone, freeway, brother ali, CYNE) and all the other pillars obviously breakin, writing(graff. such as cope2, cornbread[og status when it comesto writing], nox, JA etc) djing (dj noize, grandmaster flash, jazzy jeff, disco wiz etc) and the "5th pillar" beatboxing (razhel, fat boyz, roxorloops, oslim, ehzra etc) i can tell you that to an extent ur kinda sorta almost 25% right due to the fact that bboying can be done to: soft rock and some rock, latino/latino influenced music, african/african influenced music, funk, some disco and even some classical music and pretty much anything if ur skilled enough to stay on beat, BUT the dance was created to go along with the "breaks"(when the dj would cut out the words and other jibber jabber in the songs and just leave the beat) in hip hop/funk songs, the FIRST hip hop dancers were BBOYS and the most feared dancers in the world are...BBOYS (as much as people say "man i aint afraid of anybody", they see a bboy and they try to bite frm other dances to beat them why??because their own dance alone is not enough to win against a bboy)....intellectualbboy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.5.105.136 ( talk) 10:05, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Many would argue that Popping & Locking are a separate genre called Funk, rather than hip hop. To say Locking & Popping (as well as Roboting, mannequin, Gliding, Strobing, Strutting, Back Slide, Waving, Animation, Ticking, Tutting, etc...which are not even mention despite the fact Popping & locking are MAIN SUBJECTS of this "Hip Hop" page) are Hip Hop, is to say that Parliament, George Clinton, Zapp n Roger are Hip Hop. They are not. They are FUNK STYLES! Altho Funk was influenced by the same sources as Hip Hop, it was a different branch. Howvr, there are areas where the Hip Hop & Funk Styles overlap: I would definitely consider Mr. Wiggles & Mr Freeze an example of where the 2 converge. But to say all Popping/Locking is Hip Hop is to say all Graffiti heads are Hip Hop. They are not. Many were rock&rollers, Heavy Metalists, Punk Rockers, and skaters who might even take a whiz on Hip Hop culture -in other words, they could care less about Hip Hop. (DrewLooner)
Judging from the articles hip hop, hip hop music and Category:hip hop, the convention on the English Wikipedia is to spell "hip hop" without an hyphen (i.e. not "hip-hop"). However, my attempt to move this article to hip hop dance was reverted by User:Gbern3 with the argument "The use of a hyphen is grammatically correct. http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/576/01/ Rule #1 http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/hyphens.asp Rule #4".
I don't see how this argument is relevant. Wikipedia:Article titles#Deciding on an article title emphasizes consistency: "titles are expected to follow the same pattern as those of similar articles". The discussion on how to spell "hip hop" concerns the whole hip hop article series on Wikipedia and should thus be held at the main article talk page: Talk:hip hop. Until a change of consensus is reached there, we should use the same spelling as the main article to stay consistent.
On the discussion of which spelling to use, "hip hop" is a noun not an adjective, so the grammatical rules linked to above concerning adjectives do not hold. However, "hip-hop" is a popular alternative spelling, so it's not incorrect per se. Still, until I see strong historical sources or popularity reports favoring "hip-hop", I trust that this discussion has already been settled at the main hip hop article, and I assume that the consensus was that "hip hop" is the best spelling to use on the English Wikipedia. - Wintran ( talk) 17:43, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Street Styles vs Studio Choreography? everything in this article is either post 2000 references to RapPop/RB mutations to choppy references to breakdancin (inluding Popping & Locking, which are actually FUNK, more than HipHop) WITH NO MENTION of 90's era -a key and important bridge from the streets to the studio!! Krumping, Turfing, The Dougie, etc... is not really hip hop, per say. it is Pop or Gangster. Just bcs brown people do it doesnt mean its Hip Hop. in fact it is more a trendy mutation of HipHop mixed with a bastardization of R&B-of-old: from Lionel Richie, Stevie Wonder, Barry White, etc...to Kieth Sweat, Bell Biv Devoe, Etc...now to Jay-Z, Soulja Boy, Chris Brown, and whats-his-name, oh yes, Justin Beaver. HAHA, I know, Beiber). This aint Hip Hop. Its top 40 Pop Music. (DrewLooner)
This flowchart was added toward the end of the article just above the footnotes section but I removed it for two primary concerns: (1) it's hard to read because the words are too small—you have to click on it twice just to get a readable version—and (2) there are no sources/references used to prove that this is how dance evolved WP:VERIFY. The caption says that information in the flowchart can be found in the article but that's not actually true. For example,
Last of all, all six of these examples prove that the flowchart is original research WP:OR. Because it's original research, unreferenced, and just hard to read, I have removed the flowchart. Only if references are added to prove the validity of the chart, I think it would be better if a link to the flow chart was placed under a "See also" section since the focus of the flowchart is about dance in general and not solely about hip-hop dance. Other comments are welcome. // Gbern3 ( talk) 16:57, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
-Changed the connection to Dancehall. (however I still include dancehall as a hip hop style : I rarely see dancehall classes in studios for example, and all the dancehall techniques and choreos I learnt in several studios were in hip-hop classes. -removed Lady Style since I cannot find references, I found a few studios that teach Sexy Style but it's not official reference. Anyway it's possible to consider it a substyle of Pop/Commercial. -Couldn't find conclusive reference about russian and capoiera origins to breakdance, although there are on the net open debates whether capoiera influenced breakdance : nobody can answer that conclusively, my opinion is it did, and same for russian. It's legitimate to inform people about the existence of the debate about a possible influence, So I wrote "possible" on the chart. -How do I include references to a chart (in the case I'll gather a few...) ? Here is a version of the chart in order to share opinions Bboymor-E Bboymor-E ( talk) 11:54, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
By the way, I just saw this article on wikipedia : "Breakdancing, developed in the 1970s, has many analogous moves. Indeed, many Brazilians had immigrated to the US, and particularly to New York, by that time, and would practice capoeira in the streets where it was able to influence this new dance form." taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capoeira_in_popular_culture Bboymor-E ( talk) 13:04, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Other sources of discussions concerning capoeira influences on breakdance : indeed a few famous capoeira practionners from Brazil started living and practicing in NY in the 70s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ACapoeira/Definitions http://www.capoeira-connection.com/main/content/view/174/83/ Also, the famous movie about history of breakdance : "The freshest kids : a history of the bboy" (2002), shows that different dancers have different opinions : you can hear Mr Wiggles (Electric Boogaloo) speaking about capoeira moves being included in breakdance, while Mr Freeze (Rocksteady crew) denies having seen capoeira practitioners in NY. Bboymor-E ( talk) 23:07, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
I read the answer you (Gbern3) sent me on my talk page and saw that you deleted the chart. You seem to lack some common sense, and it also looks like you drown in the endless approach of logic instead of experiencing and focusing on the meaning of things. Extremely surprising when dealing with an article about dancing and art. It's really too bad for everyone. These arguments are rethorical games in which you seem to drown endlessly. For example out of so many, you imply I shouldn't have a Bboy username because I use the term breakdance instead of breaking : well I know that Breaking was used first but it's SO not the point... I would have appreciated that instead of spending your time writing this stuff, you could have invested your time in making a flowchart like mine which meets your editing criteria — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bboymor-E ( talk • contribs) 09:51, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
A few dance crews in Northern California include MVP San Jose, VIP San Jose, Soulidified Project, Silhouette, Wrawsome, Wrebellious, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gamabasuy ( talk • contribs) 19:22, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Um, Did everyone forget 90's New Jack Swing Era of Hip Hop?! This is a major MAJOR hole in this article!!!! from about 89-94 Hip Hop went from Old School to the New School. Kid n Play (basically the CHarleston), the Robocop, the wop, The RUnningMan, the Roger Rabbit, etc... If ur gonna talk about HIP HOP DANCE, WHERE THA HECK IS 90'S NEW JACK SWING MENTIONED!?!?!
link:
[1] New Jack Swing
Link:
[2] Kid N Play, "Gittin' Funky"
Kid n Play, The Fresh Prince, Leaders of the New School, Salt n Peppa, Janet Jackson, etc were all huge (and important) innovators of what is considered Hip Hop Dance today!!!! THIS IS MORE HIP HOP THAN POPPING AND LOCKING WHICH ARE MORE FUNK STYLES THAN HIP HOP!!!! Its like saying Parliament, George Clinton, & Zapp and Roger are Hip Hop. THEY AINT! They are FUNK.
Also noteable dancers: Mop Top, Link, Budha Stretch, etc were big influences in the early 90's!! (who also happen to b huge influences in post 2000 style House Dancing.
Sheesh, WHoever wrote this article must've been born post 1999, c'mon now...they talkin bout Krumping & ABDC as Hip Hop?! (Drew Looner)
1. This article seems to have been spammed by Fox and So You Think You Can Dance people. A disproportionate amount of space is given to the show, and to something called "Lyrical Hip Hop," which has, as far as I can tell, a very tenuous existence stemming from the above show.
2. "Lyrical hip-hop" yields 629 hits on Youtube as of 8/10/09. Cwalk yields 60,000. Yet crip walk is described here as a "fad dance." Both lyrical hip hop and cwalk should be moved under Styles. The LHH section should be drastically reduced. More weight needs to be given to legitimate hip-hop choreographers like Laurie Ann Gibson, Big Lez, and Rosie Perez. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.161.233 ( talk) 08:34, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
There should be a new section called " Printable Dance Moves". You have to have dance moves for people to print. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.228.16.22 ( talk) 21:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
hip hop is one of the most danced daces in schools and culb —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.254.167 ( talk) 21:47, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
A user recently added the following under the international competitions section:
Seems like a good event but the entire thing was unsourced, not to mention it's written for hip-hop heads (rather than for a casual reader), along with the occasional misspellings and bad grammar (to all the UK people reading this, I'm not referring to the BE spelling) so I reverted the edit. I'm copying the prose to this talk page to see if anyone can find a good source about this event being an actual competition (rather than just a festival). I haven't been able to find good sources. The official website that I got off Google doesn't work. I got the message "Sorry, but you are looking for something that isn't here." Blogs and MySpace links do not count as reliable sources so I ignored those. The other web sources stated that it was a festival but said nothing about a competition. This source from 2MF magazine was OK but it made it seem like the event was more about entertaining and performing, like a festival should be, with the competitive aspect being secondary. If this is more of a country specific festival than a competition, I think it would be more appropriate in the hip-hop theater article under the festivals section. The international competitions section list 10 major events, nine of which have regional qualifying tournaments. Additions should be comparable. // Gbern3 ( talk) 03:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
As a dancer, I feel somewhat put off (though that's not exactly the right term) by the fact that this page seems to be solely about the breaking aspect of hip-hop. If you're familiar with hip-hop, you'll realize that breaking is almost a separate style of dance; it isn't necessary to know how to dance one style to dance the other. So perhaps a section could be added on the actual 'dance' part of hip-hop (I view breaking and co. to be more of acrobatic tricks than anything)? -- Zeph —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.118.52.145 ( talk) 00:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
And as ANOTHER dancer, who is a BBOY, popper, locker, krumper, turfer, memphis jooker, i can tell you, that maybe a 33.3% of breakin is acrobatic, there is MANY diff. "parts" to bboyin such as toprock, uprock, downrock, freezez, flexibility, (this is where the "acrobatics" kick in), power(flares, windmills, air flares etc) and tricking(front/back/side flips, aerials, b twists etc) NOW with that being said, "If you're familiar with hip-hop, you'll realize that breaking is almost a separate style of dance" bboying IS the original hip hop dance, im a HUGE hip hop head, and no i dont mean rick ross, plies and all those talentless losers that are mainstream, i mean old school, golden age, some early 2000s, and underground (nujabes, immortal technique, atmosphere, 2mex, aceyalone, freeway, brother ali, CYNE) and all the other pillars obviously breakin, writing(graff. such as cope2, cornbread[og status when it comesto writing], nox, JA etc) djing (dj noize, grandmaster flash, jazzy jeff, disco wiz etc) and the "5th pillar" beatboxing (razhel, fat boyz, roxorloops, oslim, ehzra etc) i can tell you that to an extent ur kinda sorta almost 25% right due to the fact that bboying can be done to: soft rock and some rock, latino/latino influenced music, african/african influenced music, funk, some disco and even some classical music and pretty much anything if ur skilled enough to stay on beat, BUT the dance was created to go along with the "breaks"(when the dj would cut out the words and other jibber jabber in the songs and just leave the beat) in hip hop/funk songs, the FIRST hip hop dancers were BBOYS and the most feared dancers in the world are...BBOYS (as much as people say "man i aint afraid of anybody", they see a bboy and they try to bite frm other dances to beat them why??because their own dance alone is not enough to win against a bboy)....intellectualbboy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.5.105.136 ( talk) 10:05, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Many would argue that Popping & Locking are a separate genre called Funk, rather than hip hop. To say Locking & Popping (as well as Roboting, mannequin, Gliding, Strobing, Strutting, Back Slide, Waving, Animation, Ticking, Tutting, etc...which are not even mention despite the fact Popping & locking are MAIN SUBJECTS of this "Hip Hop" page) are Hip Hop, is to say that Parliament, George Clinton, Zapp n Roger are Hip Hop. They are not. They are FUNK STYLES! Altho Funk was influenced by the same sources as Hip Hop, it was a different branch. Howvr, there are areas where the Hip Hop & Funk Styles overlap: I would definitely consider Mr. Wiggles & Mr Freeze an example of where the 2 converge. But to say all Popping/Locking is Hip Hop is to say all Graffiti heads are Hip Hop. They are not. Many were rock&rollers, Heavy Metalists, Punk Rockers, and skaters who might even take a whiz on Hip Hop culture -in other words, they could care less about Hip Hop. (DrewLooner)
Judging from the articles hip hop, hip hop music and Category:hip hop, the convention on the English Wikipedia is to spell "hip hop" without an hyphen (i.e. not "hip-hop"). However, my attempt to move this article to hip hop dance was reverted by User:Gbern3 with the argument "The use of a hyphen is grammatically correct. http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/576/01/ Rule #1 http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/hyphens.asp Rule #4".
I don't see how this argument is relevant. Wikipedia:Article titles#Deciding on an article title emphasizes consistency: "titles are expected to follow the same pattern as those of similar articles". The discussion on how to spell "hip hop" concerns the whole hip hop article series on Wikipedia and should thus be held at the main article talk page: Talk:hip hop. Until a change of consensus is reached there, we should use the same spelling as the main article to stay consistent.
On the discussion of which spelling to use, "hip hop" is a noun not an adjective, so the grammatical rules linked to above concerning adjectives do not hold. However, "hip-hop" is a popular alternative spelling, so it's not incorrect per se. Still, until I see strong historical sources or popularity reports favoring "hip-hop", I trust that this discussion has already been settled at the main hip hop article, and I assume that the consensus was that "hip hop" is the best spelling to use on the English Wikipedia. - Wintran ( talk) 17:43, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Street Styles vs Studio Choreography? everything in this article is either post 2000 references to RapPop/RB mutations to choppy references to breakdancin (inluding Popping & Locking, which are actually FUNK, more than HipHop) WITH NO MENTION of 90's era -a key and important bridge from the streets to the studio!! Krumping, Turfing, The Dougie, etc... is not really hip hop, per say. it is Pop or Gangster. Just bcs brown people do it doesnt mean its Hip Hop. in fact it is more a trendy mutation of HipHop mixed with a bastardization of R&B-of-old: from Lionel Richie, Stevie Wonder, Barry White, etc...to Kieth Sweat, Bell Biv Devoe, Etc...now to Jay-Z, Soulja Boy, Chris Brown, and whats-his-name, oh yes, Justin Beaver. HAHA, I know, Beiber). This aint Hip Hop. Its top 40 Pop Music. (DrewLooner)
This flowchart was added toward the end of the article just above the footnotes section but I removed it for two primary concerns: (1) it's hard to read because the words are too small—you have to click on it twice just to get a readable version—and (2) there are no sources/references used to prove that this is how dance evolved WP:VERIFY. The caption says that information in the flowchart can be found in the article but that's not actually true. For example,
Last of all, all six of these examples prove that the flowchart is original research WP:OR. Because it's original research, unreferenced, and just hard to read, I have removed the flowchart. Only if references are added to prove the validity of the chart, I think it would be better if a link to the flow chart was placed under a "See also" section since the focus of the flowchart is about dance in general and not solely about hip-hop dance. Other comments are welcome. // Gbern3 ( talk) 16:57, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
-Changed the connection to Dancehall. (however I still include dancehall as a hip hop style : I rarely see dancehall classes in studios for example, and all the dancehall techniques and choreos I learnt in several studios were in hip-hop classes. -removed Lady Style since I cannot find references, I found a few studios that teach Sexy Style but it's not official reference. Anyway it's possible to consider it a substyle of Pop/Commercial. -Couldn't find conclusive reference about russian and capoiera origins to breakdance, although there are on the net open debates whether capoiera influenced breakdance : nobody can answer that conclusively, my opinion is it did, and same for russian. It's legitimate to inform people about the existence of the debate about a possible influence, So I wrote "possible" on the chart. -How do I include references to a chart (in the case I'll gather a few...) ? Here is a version of the chart in order to share opinions Bboymor-E Bboymor-E ( talk) 11:54, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
By the way, I just saw this article on wikipedia : "Breakdancing, developed in the 1970s, has many analogous moves. Indeed, many Brazilians had immigrated to the US, and particularly to New York, by that time, and would practice capoeira in the streets where it was able to influence this new dance form." taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capoeira_in_popular_culture Bboymor-E ( talk) 13:04, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Other sources of discussions concerning capoeira influences on breakdance : indeed a few famous capoeira practionners from Brazil started living and practicing in NY in the 70s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ACapoeira/Definitions http://www.capoeira-connection.com/main/content/view/174/83/ Also, the famous movie about history of breakdance : "The freshest kids : a history of the bboy" (2002), shows that different dancers have different opinions : you can hear Mr Wiggles (Electric Boogaloo) speaking about capoeira moves being included in breakdance, while Mr Freeze (Rocksteady crew) denies having seen capoeira practitioners in NY. Bboymor-E ( talk) 23:07, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
I read the answer you (Gbern3) sent me on my talk page and saw that you deleted the chart. You seem to lack some common sense, and it also looks like you drown in the endless approach of logic instead of experiencing and focusing on the meaning of things. Extremely surprising when dealing with an article about dancing and art. It's really too bad for everyone. These arguments are rethorical games in which you seem to drown endlessly. For example out of so many, you imply I shouldn't have a Bboy username because I use the term breakdance instead of breaking : well I know that Breaking was used first but it's SO not the point... I would have appreciated that instead of spending your time writing this stuff, you could have invested your time in making a flowchart like mine which meets your editing criteria — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bboymor-E ( talk • contribs) 09:51, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
A few dance crews in Northern California include MVP San Jose, VIP San Jose, Soulidified Project, Silhouette, Wrawsome, Wrebellious, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gamabasuy ( talk • contribs) 19:22, 19 June 2012 (UTC)