This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Please Do Editorialize the Wikipedia entry on Hip Hop with personal political or other opinions. This entry is supposed to be for basic historical facts not opinion. It is only appropriate to state facts on politics if those facts are part of the political opinion of established Hip Hop artiists who have made songs or public statements of political or social ideas and they are a part of the history. A separate entry might be called "The Politics of Hip Hop".
Looking at the 2 GA-related sections below (which I have, along with this, moved to the top in order to address the problem more urgently), created in 2007, let us note that this article is still in need of a major clean up. The suggested changes would benefit the article, and I would like to expand. The history section does not represent what is said in the main History of hip hop article - incidentally, the main history article also needs a clean up - so I suggest removing the chronological separations and focusing on the initial growth of hip-hop, with summaries of the four elements, followed by a short section on hip-hop's development until the present. None of the sections in this article need be long, but the article itself should represent (i.e. relay in far less detail) each main hip-hop related topic. Let us please get this in order, if not as per already suggested then in some other way, because at the moment it's quite a disgrace. Headbeater ( talk) 17:44, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't like saying this, but I believe this article doesn't have a chance of becoming a GA as it is now. You should look at other articles and their GA reviews to see what is needed. Don't give up on it though. egde 16:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if the above comment is a review or not, so I have reviewed this article according to the GA criteria. The article has failed at this time for several reasons. There are several "citation needed" tags, which are not allowed for GAs, as each statement needs an inline citation. My main reason for failing this article is that Hip Hop is a very large topic and the article needs to go into more detail. At this point there are are only a few sections of information, but the article could use a lot more expansion. Consider getting a peer review to help come up with ideas of what to add and how to improve the article. Once you have done these things, and looked over the criteria, consider renominating again. If you disagree with this review, then you can can seek an alternate review at Wikipedia:Good article review. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. -- Nehrams2020 18:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your very constructive comments. I'm pretty much away right now, but I hope to use your suggestions when I get back.- Robotam 13:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Latinos helped form hiphop
The following reflects newly discovered referenced facts on the term Hip Hop. This should be updated but people keep vandalising by reverting back to the old incorrect ideas about the therm "Hip Hop" Terminology
1) respectfully. the term Hip Hop was not coined in the 1970s and had been used to describe dancing before rap related culture was in existence.
The word "hip" was originally a black slang term dating back as far as 1904. It is a varient on "hep", meaning the same thing "informed". Other examples may be found in the future but the first known combination of the term Hip and Hop together to form the term "Hip Hop" is found in the lyrics to a song called "You Can't Sit Down by the pop group" The Dovells . The song charted on Billboard in 1963. One of the lyrics to the song was
"you gotta, slop bop, flip flop, hip hop, all around"
a) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNZPUxKPsoM
b) http://www.justsomelyrics.com/657665/The-Dovells-You-Can't-Sit-Down-Lyrics
The term also appears in 1968 in an advertisement for Air India for example the ad appears on the back of a tour book to Ravi Shankar's "Festival of India". The headline in large print reads "The Hip Hop" and is used to describe a flight to India.
2) Usage is not the same thing as "coining" a term. The term was coined at least as far back as 1963 as is proved above.
Another problem with the old version of Hip Hop history that users keep reverting to is that that version claims Keith Cowboy coined the term. But Afrika Bambaataa and the Universal Zulu nation clearly states the term is first used to describe rap music and culture by Lovebug Starski not Keith Cowboy. This Zulu nation reference also does not say that he "coined" the term just that he started calling it that. Here is the evidence from the Zulu nation website: http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:nmWYaxJvswsJ:www.zulunation.com/hip_hop_history_2.htm+%22keith+cowboy%22+%22hip+hop%22+military&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3 Keith Cowboy does get credit for being the person who first started using it in stage performances and making it stick.
Central16 ( talk) 19:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
It's pretty obvious that the picture of the "aerial freeze" on the streets of Paris is photoshopped. Someone ought to replace it, because it looks pretty stupid.
I think this page should include at least a mention of beatboxing, the so-called "fifth element" of hip hop. Your thoughts?
OK, right now this page has about 1000 links coming into it (not counting User and Talk pages). A few months ago (Jan-2006) Hip hop, which was a redirect to Hip hop culture, got turned into a disambiguation page [1] -- but no one updated any of the links to this page. 1000 links is far too many to disambiguate by hand (and new ones are constantly being added) so I suggest this page either be changed back into the redirect, or expanded into an article with sections that briefly cover each area and "Main article" links (which is actually what Hip hop culture already appears to be). Ewlyahoocom 04:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
People call hip hop music "hip hop". It should be moved to hip hop (music), and hip hop culture should just be "hip hop".-- Urthogie 18:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
First off I agree this should be a redirect to "hiphop culture. Second hiphop is not a political movement, even if some members have political views etc. So, i replaced "political" by "cultural" and added a link to hiphop culture page.
On a side note: you need a source on the "global media conglomerates" statement.(who are those guys anyway?)
-non-member of wikiland.august 30 2006, 11:25pm
Articles:
Hip-Hop and Worship: Effects on the Future of the Church
To B-Boy Or Not To B-Boy This is an article from the German hip-hop mag "MZEE" (July/august '93) by Kenny "Ken Swift" Gabbert and Jorge "Fabel" Pabon of the Rock Steady Crew with assistance from Richie "Crazy Legs" Colon and Steve "Mr. Wiggles". (locate orig of MZEE article copied at: [2] )- Robotam 15:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Without even getting into whether or not I agree with it, this paragraph may lean a little to far towards full-blown opinion. Is there any consensus on whether or not it belongs in this article? - Robotam 18:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, I edited this to try to clean up and create a more neutral POV for this article. I respect everyone's writing and opinions (notwithstanding the vandals), but this is not an opinion piece. I did try to get the general POV's that were discussed into the article, however. - Robotam 16:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
i've linked to a Chinese version, but that is in reality a translation-in-progress of the Hip hop culture article.
good work; consider creating an account and/or signing your comments (you can sign your name on any page by typing 4 tildes, likes this: ~~~~) so we'll know it is you! thanx,- Robotam 16:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The links to various video websites present various copyright and WP issues, such as spurious links. See WP:EL for a full discussion. thanks! - Robotam 14:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Not sure why anyone would want to dispute this, but we are all ears.- Robotam 14:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The Hip Hop page has been vandalized. 64.219.79.212 01:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I noticed. I reverted back to the page before the user with the IP 81.231.149.62 vandalized it. -- esanchez, Camp Lazlo fan! 01:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, I did some cleanup and added some secondary refs, although i cannot do footnotes right now. We do need to wikify this article in earnest, footnotes and all.- Robotam 15:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems reaonable to say we're just confusing ourselves and others by having hip hop, hip hop culture, and hip hop music. All there is hip hop culture and the music that came from that culture. Having a third hip hop page doesn't make sense. Let's redirect to a disambiguation that explains this.-- Urthogie 17:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I saw your comments above, and all are valid. I would support merging the three into one article, "Hip Hop," with "culture" and "music" shortened into sub-sections added to "history" and "legacy," as long as the effort is made to cite. I think that would go a long way towards FA status, based on the interest that has been generated in Hip Hop by cleaning it up and editing it in a more serious, scholarly manner. It still needs lots of work, but it is a start.- Robotam 18:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
"Rap is something we do. Hip hop is something we live!" KRS-One
Rap is not hip hop and cannot be uses as a synonym.
Hip Hop is not a musical genre, it is a culture.
Hip Hop is not a style of dance
Jorelnetworks 17:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Just because you say its one thing doesn't mean it isn't also another. The word hip-hop is both the name of the culture and a genre of music, and when you are referring to it as a music genre then it is synonymous with rap, except for the few occasions when a song is considered hip-hop but does not involve rapping. 66.167.206.193 01:52, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
MC'n: Rapping
B-Boy'n :Breakdancing
Grafitti :Spray can art
DJ'n :Turntablist, music using 2 phonograph turntables, mixing & scratching
Jorelnetworks 17:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Why is there an article for Hip Hop (this article) and one for Hip hop music? Maybe I'm just a white metal head but i don't really see the difference....? Violask81976 01:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
its also a genre of music which is by far the most popular definition
I also nominated Hip hop and religion, History of hip hop music, Hip hop culture, and Hip Hop for merging with this article because, logically, they should all be contained in this article, which I think should simply be called Hip Hop Cosprings 20:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Even though valid arguments have been made for keeping the various articles separate, any MERGER would more appropriately be placed under the umbrella of Hip Hop, as opposed to one facet of it, Hip Hop music.- Robotam 20:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
This is ridiculous- are "jazz" and "jazz music" different things? More importantly, this article weak because there is no information which pertains to "hip hop" and not "hip hop music" MERGE Cosprings
That may be true, except there is no group of people who are called 'hip-hops'. The point is, this article mostly talks about music, a bit of about the 4 cultural elements, but these are all on the hip-hop music article, which i agree should be called simply 'hip hop'. I still think a merge would forward the study of hip-hop here. Other people have said the same above, too Cosprings 00:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
There are "hip-hoppers" and "B-Boys." I'm not opposed to merging (under the circumstances I discussed above some time ago), but Wintran's point is valid--to cover the culture in earnest, the weaker articles should really be strengthened instead of merged.- Robotam 03:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to merge it because the hip hop music article has a great section on the 4 elements of hip hop which says better what is also here. Also, note that the other aspects of hip hop (beatboxing, breaking etc) all have their own pages
I'm sorry to see this article didn't make it into GA status. I think it's pretty good so far. However, it's missing something significant, several articles in this series are. Beef is not mentioned, but it's a significant part of hip hop music culture (yeah, I know, I just added another layer to the "culture versus music" debate, sorry). Also, I'm a bit old school in my musical taste, and if you listen to old Sugar Hill Records music, you'll often hear mention of "who's on the Radio." This, I think, is a reference to power through music (Hey, looks who's on the radio - Remember Power 99 in the 1980s? - why was it called "Power"?). Usually, power through money from music. Let's be fair and also mention power through money from drugs. There's enough lyrical boasting on all of these topics to provide citations, I think. QuickieWiki 01:48, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Various critiques of the article have been addressed, to the point where, IMO, this is clearly not a "stub" or "start" article.
PLEASE make a disambiguation page. There are so many aspects of hip hop it is getting hard to navigate through them all. 66.167.206.193 01:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
See Hip hop (disambiguation).- Robotam 02:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I second that.
The problem as I see it:
The current article has the same function as
hip hop culture, and is hard to navigate if you're looking for
hip hop music,
hip hop dance or another specific aspect of hip hop and not a summary of the culture as a whole.
Proposed solution:
What are the objections? - Wintran ( talk) 05:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Calliopejen1 06:10, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Calliopejen1 touches on a good point. IMO, if merger is necessary, it would have to be merged into the topic "Hip-Hop." anything else is (clearly) by definition a subset of Hip hop, and would be improper as a header. As it stands, if you do try to merge all of these articles into one big one, I am fairly certain that the resulting huge article will result in demands to be broken up into smaller articles, and we will be back to where we are now. I note that while the current Hip Hop Music article is long, it is all over the place, with serious WP:NPOV and WP:CITE issues. The article was actually demoted from featured article status, and doesn't at all resemble the article that was originally featured on the main page.- Robotam 15:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I tried to add a link to Black Music on my page, but I found that the Black Music page redirects to Hip Hop Music, which is wrong. Black Music starts from Slaves songs, through Spirituals, Blues and R & B, and Hip Hop is only the end of a long chain. I can write that page myself, but it will take a long time, and meanwhile I ask how to remove the redirection. -- Gideonrv 08:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
As great of a song as 'planet rock' is, it is more or less a re-mix of 'trans-europe express' by kraftwerk. I think kraftwerk should be mentioned as their use of electronics, etc greatly influenced hip hop. Denverjsmith 23:11, 5 July 2007 (UTC)denverjsmith 7/5/07
Is this a joke? Somebody replaced the page wit some craziness
This is a dispute about whether Hip hop music, Hip hop culture, and various other Hip hop-related articles should be merged into one article. -- Robotam 14:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
It does not matter whether an editor has contributed or not, any Wikipedian can vote and express their opinion on the following:
Escaper2007 17:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC) Please note that since starting this vote, my username has changed to: User:Escaper27 because of password problems. I will not be voting in this name but would like to add some comments below. Thanks. Escaper27 11:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
1984 S. HAGER Hip Hop 109/2 Hip hop:funky music suitable [emphasis added] for rapping; a collective term used to describe rap/graffiti/breaking/scratchin'. [3]
I can cite sources, but I don't want to direct too much attention away from the present questions. Again, good points.-- Robotam 19:27, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Cosprings redirected hip hop to the disambiguation page, and I think this was the right thing to do because we need more action. The old content can be found here and it should be merged with hip hop culture as soon as possible.
How about we close the vote and keep it like this for a while and see how it works? If it feels wrong we can always change it, and those who don't agree, please read the voting discussions above and write your opinion here. - Wintran ( talk) 08:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Done.-
Robotam 15:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Appropriate portions of
Hip Hop now merged to
Hip Hop Music. The relevant material from
Hip Hop and from the former
Hip Hop Music article still need to be transferred to
Hip Hop Culture.-
Robotam 15:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I still think this is totally stupid-just make ONE page called hip hop, and include everything in the culture and music pages. Fashion, dance, graffiti, etc, still have thier own pages. Why complicate things so information is redundant? Cosprings
There have been no votes or comments for a while; are there any remaining objections to redirecting this page to disambiguation as was reached by consensus above?-RoBoTam
ice 13:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Irad this artical and saw the four elements of hip-hop and I thought to my self that's not right. Later it occured t me that graffitti had replaced beat boxing. Beat boxing is one of the four elements and graffitti is not. Graffitti is not an element of hip-hop because graffitti has been around before hip-hop was created. and graffittican be for many different things not jut tagging i.e political, other music genres, etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christo1992 ( talk • contribs) 17:58, August 25, 2007 (UTC)
Actually graffitti is a part of hip hop. Just because it was around before hip hop doesn't mean anything. Technically, rap was around before hip hop if you consider the old style of country music which was actually talking and rhyming. 68.164.85.197 ( talk) 04:24, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
What happened to the infobox at the top? Thundermaster367 13:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
You Guys dont really know what hip hop is, Hip hop was when Rap & R&B started coliding which destroyed Rap and R&B, Hip Hop is not a real Genre Mcanmoocanu 15:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Theres a new movement being started in response to the 'hip hop is dead' theories called the Hip Hop Is Not Dead Movement. When is the 'right time' for it to have its own wiki article and not be considered promotion of a campaign? Is there a certain benchmark of popularity it must reach? —Preceding unsigned comment added by CycloneArts ( talk • contribs) 15:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
This whole fucking article is wrong, you want to know why, Rap and Hip Hop is not the same thing dammit, people do not know that because their to busy thinkin about this new shit, Rap was destroyed because of Hip Hop which started in early 1990s with the New Jack Swing, and therefore it continued with people like Chris Brown, Usher, SWV, TLC, T-Pain, Ciara, Jazzy Pha, and Omarion those are people who are Hip Hop, people like Snoop Dogg, Dr. Dre, Xzibit, DJ Quik, Eric B. and Rakim, Pete Rock, CL Smooth, Eminem, E-40, Run DMC, LL Cool J and Beastie Boys are not hip hop there are Rap, get it. Mcanmoocanu 12:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Hola, es peirs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.139.228.82 ( talk) 16:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
No, that's your opinion. Rap was being called hip hop in the 80s and 90s way before R&B type hip hop (Usher, Chris Brown etc) became popular. As to whether R&B type hip hop destroyed actual rap, thats another subject, but it certainly is getting more attention 68.164.85.197 ( talk) 04:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
The article currently reads less like an encyclopedia article and more like something you'd pass out in a pamphlet at a breaking competition. There's a good bit of biased/POV writing, weasel words, and a lack of a cohesive tone. This page should essentially serve as a brief introduction to hip hop culture and hip hop music. Truth be told, do we even need this to be an article? Wouldn't it be more effective as a disambiguation page as it originally was? -- FuriousFreddy ( talk) 22:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
"Hip Hop is a way of life and to most it can be credited to be the single most important thing in there life. Hip Hop is growing fast with a social network that expands all over the world, as shown in this class. "Paradoxically, or maybe not, hip-hop is at once the fastest spreading and most local pop music in the world." http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0219,christgau,34334,22.html Hip Hop has also given the youth culture a voice. Rappers like Subliminal, an Israeli rapper, gives the youth encouragement. "We need something that will encourage us. He sings that there's still hope," she said. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-11-06-hiphop-usat_x.htm"
what is this crap? - 134.84.102.237 ( talk) 08:27, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
First, please excuse my bad english, i'm french !
I've tried to add some informations about the french tv show H.I.P. H.O.P., who have been reverted.
So,it's up to you to draw your own conclusions here :
I think it's impossible to avoid speaking about this tv show in a hip hop history article, because it's the first entirely hip hop tv show in the world (so before american hip hop tv shows). The announcer, Sidney, (and also the tv show conceptor) did not speak but do rap to present all the show (possible to see on share video web site Dailymotion).
How not to mention this world history fact ?
In added, Sidney was the first black announcer in the french tv history.
What a very hip-hop symbol ! It was one of the first time in the world, maybe the first, that hip-hop made the proof it could change society...
Anyway, i was not going so far, here is what i've sent :
"In 1984 was created in France the first hip hop tv show in the world (so before american hip hop tv shows), named H.I.P. H.O.P. by Sidney, who became by the fact the first black announcer in french tv history, a hip hop symbol."
In added, by the fact with the tv show, Sidney is the first french famous rap singer, not Dee Nasty, as said on some of english wikipedia articles.
Dee Nasty made the first french rap album, in the end of 1984, but nobody heard about it at this moment, it takes for him many years before becoming more famous. Sidney made before him the first french rap single, and immediatly famous by the tv show.
It's important to say that all officials french medias say exactly the same thing, without any contradictions.
Here are links, to help to think about it :
Thanks
N.B. : the show had guests such as Sugarhill Gang, Kurtis Blow, Afrika Bambaataa, Herbie Hancock, The Breaks, The Tribe, The Art Of Noise, The Rock Steady Crew, Futura 2000, and many more. Www.why ( talk) 10:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi. Can I hear some arguments as to why there should be both a Hip hop culture article and a Hip hop article? I can't think of any. Propose merging Hip hop culture into Hip hop, pending good arguments why we shouldn't. 86.44.27.243 ( talk) 22:38, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
The close relation of the hip hop topics (which all deserve in-depth discussion) is the very reason that Hip hop is a parent article rather than a DAB page, and I think we all can agree that hip hop culture requires its own page for discussion. -RoBoTam ice 15:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)In the same way that other articles, when they become too large, have a parent article and daughter articles, this can have a parent article for basic information and daughter articles for more in-depth information. Disambiguation pages are useful when dealing with unrelated topics, but these hip hop topics are all closely related. There's no way we would choose to have China be a disambiguation page listing articles about China, rather than a parent article for the various China articles.
Please see discussion above, in particular at [4] for answers to your inquiries, specifically, in regards to why Hip hop is a parent article for both hip hop music and hip hop culture. -RoBoTam ice 20:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure that this was discussed at some point in time, but I don't see it archived anywhere. In any case, when/how was a consensus reached on whether it should be "hip hop" or "hip-hop". The book Droppin' Science: Critical Essays on Rap Music and Hip Hop Culture goes without the hyphen, but most books I've found about hip-hop use the hyphen (e.g. Can't Stop Won't Stop: A History of the Hip-Hop Generation). A GoogleBooks search for hip hop came up with this list: http://books.google.com/books?client=firefox-a&um=1&q=hip+hop&btnG=Search+Books I don't have any real interest in going through and looking at which usage is preferred (there are 1368 books), but I'd just like to see why we use hip hop over hip-hop. I understand that it may simply be a question of standardization, but, in any case, there we are. Tiger Khan ( talk) 05:11, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Please Do Editorialize the Wikipedia entry on Hip Hop with personal political or other opinions. This entry is supposed to be for basic historical facts not opinion. It is only appropriate to state facts on politics if those facts are part of the political opinion of established Hip Hop artiists who have made songs or public statements of political or social ideas and they are a part of the history. A separate entry might be called "The Politics of Hip Hop".
Looking at the 2 GA-related sections below (which I have, along with this, moved to the top in order to address the problem more urgently), created in 2007, let us note that this article is still in need of a major clean up. The suggested changes would benefit the article, and I would like to expand. The history section does not represent what is said in the main History of hip hop article - incidentally, the main history article also needs a clean up - so I suggest removing the chronological separations and focusing on the initial growth of hip-hop, with summaries of the four elements, followed by a short section on hip-hop's development until the present. None of the sections in this article need be long, but the article itself should represent (i.e. relay in far less detail) each main hip-hop related topic. Let us please get this in order, if not as per already suggested then in some other way, because at the moment it's quite a disgrace. Headbeater ( talk) 17:44, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't like saying this, but I believe this article doesn't have a chance of becoming a GA as it is now. You should look at other articles and their GA reviews to see what is needed. Don't give up on it though. egde 16:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if the above comment is a review or not, so I have reviewed this article according to the GA criteria. The article has failed at this time for several reasons. There are several "citation needed" tags, which are not allowed for GAs, as each statement needs an inline citation. My main reason for failing this article is that Hip Hop is a very large topic and the article needs to go into more detail. At this point there are are only a few sections of information, but the article could use a lot more expansion. Consider getting a peer review to help come up with ideas of what to add and how to improve the article. Once you have done these things, and looked over the criteria, consider renominating again. If you disagree with this review, then you can can seek an alternate review at Wikipedia:Good article review. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. -- Nehrams2020 18:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your very constructive comments. I'm pretty much away right now, but I hope to use your suggestions when I get back.- Robotam 13:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Latinos helped form hiphop
The following reflects newly discovered referenced facts on the term Hip Hop. This should be updated but people keep vandalising by reverting back to the old incorrect ideas about the therm "Hip Hop" Terminology
1) respectfully. the term Hip Hop was not coined in the 1970s and had been used to describe dancing before rap related culture was in existence.
The word "hip" was originally a black slang term dating back as far as 1904. It is a varient on "hep", meaning the same thing "informed". Other examples may be found in the future but the first known combination of the term Hip and Hop together to form the term "Hip Hop" is found in the lyrics to a song called "You Can't Sit Down by the pop group" The Dovells . The song charted on Billboard in 1963. One of the lyrics to the song was
"you gotta, slop bop, flip flop, hip hop, all around"
a) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNZPUxKPsoM
b) http://www.justsomelyrics.com/657665/The-Dovells-You-Can't-Sit-Down-Lyrics
The term also appears in 1968 in an advertisement for Air India for example the ad appears on the back of a tour book to Ravi Shankar's "Festival of India". The headline in large print reads "The Hip Hop" and is used to describe a flight to India.
2) Usage is not the same thing as "coining" a term. The term was coined at least as far back as 1963 as is proved above.
Another problem with the old version of Hip Hop history that users keep reverting to is that that version claims Keith Cowboy coined the term. But Afrika Bambaataa and the Universal Zulu nation clearly states the term is first used to describe rap music and culture by Lovebug Starski not Keith Cowboy. This Zulu nation reference also does not say that he "coined" the term just that he started calling it that. Here is the evidence from the Zulu nation website: http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:nmWYaxJvswsJ:www.zulunation.com/hip_hop_history_2.htm+%22keith+cowboy%22+%22hip+hop%22+military&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3 Keith Cowboy does get credit for being the person who first started using it in stage performances and making it stick.
Central16 ( talk) 19:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
It's pretty obvious that the picture of the "aerial freeze" on the streets of Paris is photoshopped. Someone ought to replace it, because it looks pretty stupid.
I think this page should include at least a mention of beatboxing, the so-called "fifth element" of hip hop. Your thoughts?
OK, right now this page has about 1000 links coming into it (not counting User and Talk pages). A few months ago (Jan-2006) Hip hop, which was a redirect to Hip hop culture, got turned into a disambiguation page [1] -- but no one updated any of the links to this page. 1000 links is far too many to disambiguate by hand (and new ones are constantly being added) so I suggest this page either be changed back into the redirect, or expanded into an article with sections that briefly cover each area and "Main article" links (which is actually what Hip hop culture already appears to be). Ewlyahoocom 04:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
People call hip hop music "hip hop". It should be moved to hip hop (music), and hip hop culture should just be "hip hop".-- Urthogie 18:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
First off I agree this should be a redirect to "hiphop culture. Second hiphop is not a political movement, even if some members have political views etc. So, i replaced "political" by "cultural" and added a link to hiphop culture page.
On a side note: you need a source on the "global media conglomerates" statement.(who are those guys anyway?)
-non-member of wikiland.august 30 2006, 11:25pm
Articles:
Hip-Hop and Worship: Effects on the Future of the Church
To B-Boy Or Not To B-Boy This is an article from the German hip-hop mag "MZEE" (July/august '93) by Kenny "Ken Swift" Gabbert and Jorge "Fabel" Pabon of the Rock Steady Crew with assistance from Richie "Crazy Legs" Colon and Steve "Mr. Wiggles". (locate orig of MZEE article copied at: [2] )- Robotam 15:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Without even getting into whether or not I agree with it, this paragraph may lean a little to far towards full-blown opinion. Is there any consensus on whether or not it belongs in this article? - Robotam 18:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, I edited this to try to clean up and create a more neutral POV for this article. I respect everyone's writing and opinions (notwithstanding the vandals), but this is not an opinion piece. I did try to get the general POV's that were discussed into the article, however. - Robotam 16:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
i've linked to a Chinese version, but that is in reality a translation-in-progress of the Hip hop culture article.
good work; consider creating an account and/or signing your comments (you can sign your name on any page by typing 4 tildes, likes this: ~~~~) so we'll know it is you! thanx,- Robotam 16:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The links to various video websites present various copyright and WP issues, such as spurious links. See WP:EL for a full discussion. thanks! - Robotam 14:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Not sure why anyone would want to dispute this, but we are all ears.- Robotam 14:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The Hip Hop page has been vandalized. 64.219.79.212 01:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I noticed. I reverted back to the page before the user with the IP 81.231.149.62 vandalized it. -- esanchez, Camp Lazlo fan! 01:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, I did some cleanup and added some secondary refs, although i cannot do footnotes right now. We do need to wikify this article in earnest, footnotes and all.- Robotam 15:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems reaonable to say we're just confusing ourselves and others by having hip hop, hip hop culture, and hip hop music. All there is hip hop culture and the music that came from that culture. Having a third hip hop page doesn't make sense. Let's redirect to a disambiguation that explains this.-- Urthogie 17:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I saw your comments above, and all are valid. I would support merging the three into one article, "Hip Hop," with "culture" and "music" shortened into sub-sections added to "history" and "legacy," as long as the effort is made to cite. I think that would go a long way towards FA status, based on the interest that has been generated in Hip Hop by cleaning it up and editing it in a more serious, scholarly manner. It still needs lots of work, but it is a start.- Robotam 18:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
"Rap is something we do. Hip hop is something we live!" KRS-One
Rap is not hip hop and cannot be uses as a synonym.
Hip Hop is not a musical genre, it is a culture.
Hip Hop is not a style of dance
Jorelnetworks 17:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Just because you say its one thing doesn't mean it isn't also another. The word hip-hop is both the name of the culture and a genre of music, and when you are referring to it as a music genre then it is synonymous with rap, except for the few occasions when a song is considered hip-hop but does not involve rapping. 66.167.206.193 01:52, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
MC'n: Rapping
B-Boy'n :Breakdancing
Grafitti :Spray can art
DJ'n :Turntablist, music using 2 phonograph turntables, mixing & scratching
Jorelnetworks 17:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Why is there an article for Hip Hop (this article) and one for Hip hop music? Maybe I'm just a white metal head but i don't really see the difference....? Violask81976 01:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
its also a genre of music which is by far the most popular definition
I also nominated Hip hop and religion, History of hip hop music, Hip hop culture, and Hip Hop for merging with this article because, logically, they should all be contained in this article, which I think should simply be called Hip Hop Cosprings 20:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Even though valid arguments have been made for keeping the various articles separate, any MERGER would more appropriately be placed under the umbrella of Hip Hop, as opposed to one facet of it, Hip Hop music.- Robotam 20:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
This is ridiculous- are "jazz" and "jazz music" different things? More importantly, this article weak because there is no information which pertains to "hip hop" and not "hip hop music" MERGE Cosprings
That may be true, except there is no group of people who are called 'hip-hops'. The point is, this article mostly talks about music, a bit of about the 4 cultural elements, but these are all on the hip-hop music article, which i agree should be called simply 'hip hop'. I still think a merge would forward the study of hip-hop here. Other people have said the same above, too Cosprings 00:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
There are "hip-hoppers" and "B-Boys." I'm not opposed to merging (under the circumstances I discussed above some time ago), but Wintran's point is valid--to cover the culture in earnest, the weaker articles should really be strengthened instead of merged.- Robotam 03:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to merge it because the hip hop music article has a great section on the 4 elements of hip hop which says better what is also here. Also, note that the other aspects of hip hop (beatboxing, breaking etc) all have their own pages
I'm sorry to see this article didn't make it into GA status. I think it's pretty good so far. However, it's missing something significant, several articles in this series are. Beef is not mentioned, but it's a significant part of hip hop music culture (yeah, I know, I just added another layer to the "culture versus music" debate, sorry). Also, I'm a bit old school in my musical taste, and if you listen to old Sugar Hill Records music, you'll often hear mention of "who's on the Radio." This, I think, is a reference to power through music (Hey, looks who's on the radio - Remember Power 99 in the 1980s? - why was it called "Power"?). Usually, power through money from music. Let's be fair and also mention power through money from drugs. There's enough lyrical boasting on all of these topics to provide citations, I think. QuickieWiki 01:48, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Various critiques of the article have been addressed, to the point where, IMO, this is clearly not a "stub" or "start" article.
PLEASE make a disambiguation page. There are so many aspects of hip hop it is getting hard to navigate through them all. 66.167.206.193 01:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
See Hip hop (disambiguation).- Robotam 02:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I second that.
The problem as I see it:
The current article has the same function as
hip hop culture, and is hard to navigate if you're looking for
hip hop music,
hip hop dance or another specific aspect of hip hop and not a summary of the culture as a whole.
Proposed solution:
What are the objections? - Wintran ( talk) 05:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Calliopejen1 06:10, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Calliopejen1 touches on a good point. IMO, if merger is necessary, it would have to be merged into the topic "Hip-Hop." anything else is (clearly) by definition a subset of Hip hop, and would be improper as a header. As it stands, if you do try to merge all of these articles into one big one, I am fairly certain that the resulting huge article will result in demands to be broken up into smaller articles, and we will be back to where we are now. I note that while the current Hip Hop Music article is long, it is all over the place, with serious WP:NPOV and WP:CITE issues. The article was actually demoted from featured article status, and doesn't at all resemble the article that was originally featured on the main page.- Robotam 15:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I tried to add a link to Black Music on my page, but I found that the Black Music page redirects to Hip Hop Music, which is wrong. Black Music starts from Slaves songs, through Spirituals, Blues and R & B, and Hip Hop is only the end of a long chain. I can write that page myself, but it will take a long time, and meanwhile I ask how to remove the redirection. -- Gideonrv 08:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
As great of a song as 'planet rock' is, it is more or less a re-mix of 'trans-europe express' by kraftwerk. I think kraftwerk should be mentioned as their use of electronics, etc greatly influenced hip hop. Denverjsmith 23:11, 5 July 2007 (UTC)denverjsmith 7/5/07
Is this a joke? Somebody replaced the page wit some craziness
This is a dispute about whether Hip hop music, Hip hop culture, and various other Hip hop-related articles should be merged into one article. -- Robotam 14:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
It does not matter whether an editor has contributed or not, any Wikipedian can vote and express their opinion on the following:
Escaper2007 17:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC) Please note that since starting this vote, my username has changed to: User:Escaper27 because of password problems. I will not be voting in this name but would like to add some comments below. Thanks. Escaper27 11:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
1984 S. HAGER Hip Hop 109/2 Hip hop:funky music suitable [emphasis added] for rapping; a collective term used to describe rap/graffiti/breaking/scratchin'. [3]
I can cite sources, but I don't want to direct too much attention away from the present questions. Again, good points.-- Robotam 19:27, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Cosprings redirected hip hop to the disambiguation page, and I think this was the right thing to do because we need more action. The old content can be found here and it should be merged with hip hop culture as soon as possible.
How about we close the vote and keep it like this for a while and see how it works? If it feels wrong we can always change it, and those who don't agree, please read the voting discussions above and write your opinion here. - Wintran ( talk) 08:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Done.-
Robotam 15:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Appropriate portions of
Hip Hop now merged to
Hip Hop Music. The relevant material from
Hip Hop and from the former
Hip Hop Music article still need to be transferred to
Hip Hop Culture.-
Robotam 15:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I still think this is totally stupid-just make ONE page called hip hop, and include everything in the culture and music pages. Fashion, dance, graffiti, etc, still have thier own pages. Why complicate things so information is redundant? Cosprings
There have been no votes or comments for a while; are there any remaining objections to redirecting this page to disambiguation as was reached by consensus above?-RoBoTam
ice 13:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Irad this artical and saw the four elements of hip-hop and I thought to my self that's not right. Later it occured t me that graffitti had replaced beat boxing. Beat boxing is one of the four elements and graffitti is not. Graffitti is not an element of hip-hop because graffitti has been around before hip-hop was created. and graffittican be for many different things not jut tagging i.e political, other music genres, etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christo1992 ( talk • contribs) 17:58, August 25, 2007 (UTC)
Actually graffitti is a part of hip hop. Just because it was around before hip hop doesn't mean anything. Technically, rap was around before hip hop if you consider the old style of country music which was actually talking and rhyming. 68.164.85.197 ( talk) 04:24, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
What happened to the infobox at the top? Thundermaster367 13:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
You Guys dont really know what hip hop is, Hip hop was when Rap & R&B started coliding which destroyed Rap and R&B, Hip Hop is not a real Genre Mcanmoocanu 15:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Theres a new movement being started in response to the 'hip hop is dead' theories called the Hip Hop Is Not Dead Movement. When is the 'right time' for it to have its own wiki article and not be considered promotion of a campaign? Is there a certain benchmark of popularity it must reach? —Preceding unsigned comment added by CycloneArts ( talk • contribs) 15:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
This whole fucking article is wrong, you want to know why, Rap and Hip Hop is not the same thing dammit, people do not know that because their to busy thinkin about this new shit, Rap was destroyed because of Hip Hop which started in early 1990s with the New Jack Swing, and therefore it continued with people like Chris Brown, Usher, SWV, TLC, T-Pain, Ciara, Jazzy Pha, and Omarion those are people who are Hip Hop, people like Snoop Dogg, Dr. Dre, Xzibit, DJ Quik, Eric B. and Rakim, Pete Rock, CL Smooth, Eminem, E-40, Run DMC, LL Cool J and Beastie Boys are not hip hop there are Rap, get it. Mcanmoocanu 12:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Hola, es peirs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.139.228.82 ( talk) 16:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
No, that's your opinion. Rap was being called hip hop in the 80s and 90s way before R&B type hip hop (Usher, Chris Brown etc) became popular. As to whether R&B type hip hop destroyed actual rap, thats another subject, but it certainly is getting more attention 68.164.85.197 ( talk) 04:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
The article currently reads less like an encyclopedia article and more like something you'd pass out in a pamphlet at a breaking competition. There's a good bit of biased/POV writing, weasel words, and a lack of a cohesive tone. This page should essentially serve as a brief introduction to hip hop culture and hip hop music. Truth be told, do we even need this to be an article? Wouldn't it be more effective as a disambiguation page as it originally was? -- FuriousFreddy ( talk) 22:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
"Hip Hop is a way of life and to most it can be credited to be the single most important thing in there life. Hip Hop is growing fast with a social network that expands all over the world, as shown in this class. "Paradoxically, or maybe not, hip-hop is at once the fastest spreading and most local pop music in the world." http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0219,christgau,34334,22.html Hip Hop has also given the youth culture a voice. Rappers like Subliminal, an Israeli rapper, gives the youth encouragement. "We need something that will encourage us. He sings that there's still hope," she said. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-11-06-hiphop-usat_x.htm"
what is this crap? - 134.84.102.237 ( talk) 08:27, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
First, please excuse my bad english, i'm french !
I've tried to add some informations about the french tv show H.I.P. H.O.P., who have been reverted.
So,it's up to you to draw your own conclusions here :
I think it's impossible to avoid speaking about this tv show in a hip hop history article, because it's the first entirely hip hop tv show in the world (so before american hip hop tv shows). The announcer, Sidney, (and also the tv show conceptor) did not speak but do rap to present all the show (possible to see on share video web site Dailymotion).
How not to mention this world history fact ?
In added, Sidney was the first black announcer in the french tv history.
What a very hip-hop symbol ! It was one of the first time in the world, maybe the first, that hip-hop made the proof it could change society...
Anyway, i was not going so far, here is what i've sent :
"In 1984 was created in France the first hip hop tv show in the world (so before american hip hop tv shows), named H.I.P. H.O.P. by Sidney, who became by the fact the first black announcer in french tv history, a hip hop symbol."
In added, by the fact with the tv show, Sidney is the first french famous rap singer, not Dee Nasty, as said on some of english wikipedia articles.
Dee Nasty made the first french rap album, in the end of 1984, but nobody heard about it at this moment, it takes for him many years before becoming more famous. Sidney made before him the first french rap single, and immediatly famous by the tv show.
It's important to say that all officials french medias say exactly the same thing, without any contradictions.
Here are links, to help to think about it :
Thanks
N.B. : the show had guests such as Sugarhill Gang, Kurtis Blow, Afrika Bambaataa, Herbie Hancock, The Breaks, The Tribe, The Art Of Noise, The Rock Steady Crew, Futura 2000, and many more. Www.why ( talk) 10:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi. Can I hear some arguments as to why there should be both a Hip hop culture article and a Hip hop article? I can't think of any. Propose merging Hip hop culture into Hip hop, pending good arguments why we shouldn't. 86.44.27.243 ( talk) 22:38, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
The close relation of the hip hop topics (which all deserve in-depth discussion) is the very reason that Hip hop is a parent article rather than a DAB page, and I think we all can agree that hip hop culture requires its own page for discussion. -RoBoTam ice 15:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)In the same way that other articles, when they become too large, have a parent article and daughter articles, this can have a parent article for basic information and daughter articles for more in-depth information. Disambiguation pages are useful when dealing with unrelated topics, but these hip hop topics are all closely related. There's no way we would choose to have China be a disambiguation page listing articles about China, rather than a parent article for the various China articles.
Please see discussion above, in particular at [4] for answers to your inquiries, specifically, in regards to why Hip hop is a parent article for both hip hop music and hip hop culture. -RoBoTam ice 20:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure that this was discussed at some point in time, but I don't see it archived anywhere. In any case, when/how was a consensus reached on whether it should be "hip hop" or "hip-hop". The book Droppin' Science: Critical Essays on Rap Music and Hip Hop Culture goes without the hyphen, but most books I've found about hip-hop use the hyphen (e.g. Can't Stop Won't Stop: A History of the Hip-Hop Generation). A GoogleBooks search for hip hop came up with this list: http://books.google.com/books?client=firefox-a&um=1&q=hip+hop&btnG=Search+Books I don't have any real interest in going through and looking at which usage is preferred (there are 1368 books), but I'd just like to see why we use hip hop over hip-hop. I understand that it may simply be a question of standardization, but, in any case, there we are. Tiger Khan ( talk) 05:11, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
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