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This article is alarmingly misleading. The last two lines of the introduction manipulate information to convey what is incorrect. For example, the footnote for "intermarriage between Hindus and Sikhs has been considered acceptable" cites the quote "A Sikh's daughter must be married to a Sikh." Also, the last line's reference sources are not valid! The 2nd source for it, a page about a Hindu shrine, mentions one important Sikh visitor. Nothing on the sources even imply that Hindus and Sikhs both visit each site proportionally. I will clarify the inaccuracies here; if you have a reason to change then respond first please. Mar de Sin Speak up! 01:56, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I have restored this version all the way now because the recent expansion done by the 2 of the users, [1] [2] completely ignores WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. If there is some information like "Hinduism opposes XYZ" and "Sikhism supports XYZ" then the comparison of these 2 views should be made by the cited reliable source, not Wikipedia editors per WP:OR. I am seeing the recent edits [3] [4] to be clearly violating that norm. Finally the WP:QUOTEFARM and dependence on unreliable sources (douban.com/group/, hindujagruti.org) and primary sources (Guru granth sahib) has been also very heavy. For these reasons, the last stable version has been restored by me. Azuredivay ( talk) 11:43, 15 June 2020 (UTC)1
Some of the recent edits made by Otinflewer seems to be wrong in the following ways:
1. He has mentioned that Hinduism has prehistoric origins and has replaced the actual date with this text. Similar kind of belief is held by many orthodox Hindus that their religion is eternal and has "always" been there which is not worth accepting from an encyclopedia point of view. Secondly the source given by him doesn't say the same. Please see p544 of the book that he has been used as a reference: https://archive.org/details/surveyofhinduism00klos/page/544/mode/2up . It doesn't say anything like that. It is WP:FICTREF
2. He has rewritten the Idol Worship section by giving reference of Idolatry in Sikhism article. He writes: "Prior to 1905, idols were a part of Sikh gurdwaras, including the Harimandir Sahib (Golden Temple, Amritsar)." which indirectly suggests that idol worship was there in Sikhism even at the time of Sikh Gurus. This is not the Idolatry in Sikhism article says. If one reads the entire article, it outlines three phases in Sikhism wrt Idol Worship i.e. first phase is when as per teachings of Sikh Gurus, idol worship was not present in Sikh institutions. Second phase came when mahants, who gained control of Gurudwaras after Mughal persecution forced Khalsa Sikhs to relinquish the control of Gurudwaras, institutionalized idol worship. Third phase is when Khalsa Sikhs re-established institutional control over Gurudwaras and removed the idols installed during the preceding period. But, he has picked between the lines and therefore violates WP:NPOV. Moreover, two of the sources cited by him for these lines have citation error.
3. He has removed some sections under Differences citing WP:OR but discussion on this has already taken place on this talk page under Original Research subject where Azuredivay failed to prove how sections removed by him violate WP:OR and sections left in the version (which he was referred to as good version) doesn't violate WP:OR. Just to reiterate WP:OR says that you can't draw a conclusion C if a source says conclusion A and another source says conclusion B. My question is where are we drawing the conclusion C? For eg: Hinduism source says what Hinduism says Heaven & Hell and Sikh source says what Sikhism says about Heaven & Hell. So, where is the conclusion drawn from these two points?
So, I am reverting his changes for now. We can discuss further on this talk page if there is disagreement with my analysis. Jasksingh ( talk) 11:57, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
The user Azuredivay had raised objections that many sections under Differences are ignoring WP:OR. The reason given by him was that these sections don't contain common sources which mentions the stance of both religions on various points like Pilgrimage, Fasting, Idol worship etc. He had removed some of the sections because of that. So, I will keep on adding such sources in various sections so that they no longer ignore WP:OR guideline. I will also keeping on mentioning those sources in this section of talk page so that any other user, who has the same concerns, can refer to this section.
For eg: today I have made changes in Idol Worship section so that it no longer ignores WP:OR. The common source for that is the following book:
https://archive.org/stream/ACompleteGuideToSikhism/#page/n109
Other supporting sources have also been kept as just common source is sometimes not enough to mention all the details. For eg: the above common source doesn't mentions that all Hindus don't worship idols so other sources have to be used to clarify that. Jasksingh ( talk) 18:53, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
For Pilgrimage section, following source has been added as a common source for both the religions:
https://archive.org/details/IntroductionToSikhism/page/n57 Jasksingh ( talk) 12:26, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
For Heaven and Hell section, following source has been added as a common source for both the religions:
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=TxP5Ww_JO64C&pg=PA188 Jasksingh ( talk) 02:23, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
For Fasting section, following source has been added as a common source comparing both religions w.r.t fasting:
https://books.google.ie/books?id=gqIbJz7vMn0C&pg=PA71 Jasksingh ( talk) 02:24, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
For Caste System section, following source has been added as a common source:
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=H9jKt0dLz1IC&pg=PP56 Jasksingh ( talk) 07:00, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
For Asceticism section, following source has been added as a common source:
https://books.google.ie/books?id=gqIbJz7vMn0C&pg=PA22 Jasksingh ( talk) 16:37, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
For Shrādh section, following source has been added as a common source:
https://archive.org/details/encyclopaediaofs0000dogr/page/433 Jasksingh ( talk) 06:32, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
For Menstruation section, following source has been added as a common source:
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=boI8DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA125 Jasksingh ( talk) 14:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
For Auspicious Day section, following source has been added as a common source:
https://archive.org/stream/ACompleteGuideToSikhism/#page/n120 Jasksingh ( talk) 04:36, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
For Animal Sacrifice section, following source has been added as a common source:
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=FYxRDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA117 Jasksingh ( talk) 05:07, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
For concept of God, following source has been added as a common source:
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=FYxRDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA105 Jasksingh ( talk) 13:02, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
This is very poorly sourced and almost all of the sources are about the target. TrangaBellam ( talk) 13:57, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Delete It is a bunch of unreliable sources and seem to be pushing only one view point CanadianSingh1469 ( talk) 16:06, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
The first paragraph of "Historical links" & opening lines of "Beliefs" are mentioning about the same thing i.e. historical links. So, it would be better to merge them and keep it under "Links" section. Links section can have two subsections - "Ideological" and "Struggle against Mughals". Beliefs section can straightaway start from "Concept of God". Others please suggest. If anybody has objection then we can discuss it on this talk page otherwise I will make the changes after few days. Jasksingh ( talk) 13:40, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hinduism and Sikhism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is alarmingly misleading. The last two lines of the introduction manipulate information to convey what is incorrect. For example, the footnote for "intermarriage between Hindus and Sikhs has been considered acceptable" cites the quote "A Sikh's daughter must be married to a Sikh." Also, the last line's reference sources are not valid! The 2nd source for it, a page about a Hindu shrine, mentions one important Sikh visitor. Nothing on the sources even imply that Hindus and Sikhs both visit each site proportionally. I will clarify the inaccuracies here; if you have a reason to change then respond first please. Mar de Sin Speak up! 01:56, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I have restored this version all the way now because the recent expansion done by the 2 of the users, [1] [2] completely ignores WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. If there is some information like "Hinduism opposes XYZ" and "Sikhism supports XYZ" then the comparison of these 2 views should be made by the cited reliable source, not Wikipedia editors per WP:OR. I am seeing the recent edits [3] [4] to be clearly violating that norm. Finally the WP:QUOTEFARM and dependence on unreliable sources (douban.com/group/, hindujagruti.org) and primary sources (Guru granth sahib) has been also very heavy. For these reasons, the last stable version has been restored by me. Azuredivay ( talk) 11:43, 15 June 2020 (UTC)1
Some of the recent edits made by Otinflewer seems to be wrong in the following ways:
1. He has mentioned that Hinduism has prehistoric origins and has replaced the actual date with this text. Similar kind of belief is held by many orthodox Hindus that their religion is eternal and has "always" been there which is not worth accepting from an encyclopedia point of view. Secondly the source given by him doesn't say the same. Please see p544 of the book that he has been used as a reference: https://archive.org/details/surveyofhinduism00klos/page/544/mode/2up . It doesn't say anything like that. It is WP:FICTREF
2. He has rewritten the Idol Worship section by giving reference of Idolatry in Sikhism article. He writes: "Prior to 1905, idols were a part of Sikh gurdwaras, including the Harimandir Sahib (Golden Temple, Amritsar)." which indirectly suggests that idol worship was there in Sikhism even at the time of Sikh Gurus. This is not the Idolatry in Sikhism article says. If one reads the entire article, it outlines three phases in Sikhism wrt Idol Worship i.e. first phase is when as per teachings of Sikh Gurus, idol worship was not present in Sikh institutions. Second phase came when mahants, who gained control of Gurudwaras after Mughal persecution forced Khalsa Sikhs to relinquish the control of Gurudwaras, institutionalized idol worship. Third phase is when Khalsa Sikhs re-established institutional control over Gurudwaras and removed the idols installed during the preceding period. But, he has picked between the lines and therefore violates WP:NPOV. Moreover, two of the sources cited by him for these lines have citation error.
3. He has removed some sections under Differences citing WP:OR but discussion on this has already taken place on this talk page under Original Research subject where Azuredivay failed to prove how sections removed by him violate WP:OR and sections left in the version (which he was referred to as good version) doesn't violate WP:OR. Just to reiterate WP:OR says that you can't draw a conclusion C if a source says conclusion A and another source says conclusion B. My question is where are we drawing the conclusion C? For eg: Hinduism source says what Hinduism says Heaven & Hell and Sikh source says what Sikhism says about Heaven & Hell. So, where is the conclusion drawn from these two points?
So, I am reverting his changes for now. We can discuss further on this talk page if there is disagreement with my analysis. Jasksingh ( talk) 11:57, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
The user Azuredivay had raised objections that many sections under Differences are ignoring WP:OR. The reason given by him was that these sections don't contain common sources which mentions the stance of both religions on various points like Pilgrimage, Fasting, Idol worship etc. He had removed some of the sections because of that. So, I will keep on adding such sources in various sections so that they no longer ignore WP:OR guideline. I will also keeping on mentioning those sources in this section of talk page so that any other user, who has the same concerns, can refer to this section.
For eg: today I have made changes in Idol Worship section so that it no longer ignores WP:OR. The common source for that is the following book:
https://archive.org/stream/ACompleteGuideToSikhism/#page/n109
Other supporting sources have also been kept as just common source is sometimes not enough to mention all the details. For eg: the above common source doesn't mentions that all Hindus don't worship idols so other sources have to be used to clarify that. Jasksingh ( talk) 18:53, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
For Pilgrimage section, following source has been added as a common source for both the religions:
https://archive.org/details/IntroductionToSikhism/page/n57 Jasksingh ( talk) 12:26, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
For Heaven and Hell section, following source has been added as a common source for both the religions:
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=TxP5Ww_JO64C&pg=PA188 Jasksingh ( talk) 02:23, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
For Fasting section, following source has been added as a common source comparing both religions w.r.t fasting:
https://books.google.ie/books?id=gqIbJz7vMn0C&pg=PA71 Jasksingh ( talk) 02:24, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
For Caste System section, following source has been added as a common source:
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=H9jKt0dLz1IC&pg=PP56 Jasksingh ( talk) 07:00, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
For Asceticism section, following source has been added as a common source:
https://books.google.ie/books?id=gqIbJz7vMn0C&pg=PA22 Jasksingh ( talk) 16:37, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
For Shrādh section, following source has been added as a common source:
https://archive.org/details/encyclopaediaofs0000dogr/page/433 Jasksingh ( talk) 06:32, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
For Menstruation section, following source has been added as a common source:
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=boI8DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA125 Jasksingh ( talk) 14:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
For Auspicious Day section, following source has been added as a common source:
https://archive.org/stream/ACompleteGuideToSikhism/#page/n120 Jasksingh ( talk) 04:36, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
For Animal Sacrifice section, following source has been added as a common source:
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=FYxRDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA117 Jasksingh ( talk) 05:07, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
For concept of God, following source has been added as a common source:
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=FYxRDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA105 Jasksingh ( talk) 13:02, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
This is very poorly sourced and almost all of the sources are about the target. TrangaBellam ( talk) 13:57, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Delete It is a bunch of unreliable sources and seem to be pushing only one view point CanadianSingh1469 ( talk) 16:06, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
The first paragraph of "Historical links" & opening lines of "Beliefs" are mentioning about the same thing i.e. historical links. So, it would be better to merge them and keep it under "Links" section. Links section can have two subsections - "Ideological" and "Struggle against Mughals". Beliefs section can straightaway start from "Concept of God". Others please suggest. If anybody has objection then we can discuss it on this talk page otherwise I will make the changes after few days. Jasksingh ( talk) 13:40, 1 April 2023 (UTC)