This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Welcome to those who are interested in the Hinayana article, especially if you are new to wikipedia. Please remember to strive for a Neutral Point of View, and that we are writing an encylopedia (see What Wikipedia is not). Please read the archives above, as there are many issues which have been covered in some manner or another.
This article tends to swing from an anti-mahayana to a pro-mahayana stance. However we are attempting to find a fair NPOV for the article, which remains informative and encyclopaedic. If you wish to help, please do more than to criticise the current copy. Show good reasons, cite sources, and provide evidence - this way your arguments can be accomodated into the article. ( 20040302)
In general, this article is just not readable for someone who has no clue about Hinayana, please stay on topic. -- Solitude 19:17, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
Well, I've been away. When 20040302 start to add section on top of my edit, I was quite sure he was going to change article back to his Tibetan (Hinayana was never projetive) line eventually. I came back and that pretty much seems to be the case. Distinction of Tibetan Vijrayana and Chinese(Oriental)Mahayanan is gone, obviously on this person's belif that Mahayanan tradition undestood by Tibetan is the correct one. I will again make it clear that Hinayana being projetive is a Tibetan viewpoint in accordance with this site policy to promote correct "attribution" of view. One can certainly express "Tibetan" interpretation of the term as long as it is attributed as such. Just don't try to censor other interpretation or for that matter try to present one view point (Tibetan)as the representation of entire category of philosopy (Mahayana) FWBOarticle
Just one point about the edits you made: You are claiming that the PTS states that "Hina" is derogatory - yet, you do not cite from them. I have no problem with keeping the definition of the term, yet your claim is an interpretation, or maybe just poor Engrish.
The other issue that I interpret from your edit is that I gather you feel the article under-represents the position that -if- the term Hinayana was meant to be categorative, -then- the Mahayanists would have coined the term "ksudrayana" instead. However, I'm not sure about that: Kshudra: "minute, diminuitive, tiny, very small, little, trifling, mean, low, vile, wicked, niggardly, avaricious, cruel, poor, indigent" (Monier-Williams) - so it appears that Kshudra has the same connotations that one finds with 'Hina'. Moreover, the Maha/Kshudra pair (not mentioned as apposite in MW) would indicate size rather than quality, which I doubt was the purpose of the authors of the term 'Hinayana'. It appears that the argument you use is not particularly strong. However, if you can show some literary or 3rd person documented support for the argument, then I am sure we can reflect the discussion in the article. ( 20040302 09:42, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC))
Pali text soc. dictionary is here. The claim made in the article checks out OK.
All Pali/Sanskrit diminutives I'm aware of (khudda, appa, thoka) have the potential to connote something disparaging--e.g., a trifle. However, khudda is apparently used as an unambiguously neutral, non-disparaging diminutive in the Pali canon (e.g. see Khuddakapatha). In contrast, I am not aware of the use of hina as a neutral, non-disparaging term in Pali or Sanskrit texts. If there is such a comparable, unambiguously neutral, non-disparaging use of hina in such texts, by all means, let's cite it.
One doesn't have to search long for uses of hina that imply inferior quality. Two examples pop up if you search on hina at accesstoinsight.org, and two more are found in the index of Nanananda's book Concept and Reality. To me, that line of reasoning alone justifies the link to Kare Lie's article, although he makes many other good points. If he is not correct on every point, "never let the perfect stand in the way of the good".
If there is a comparably good link somewhere that justifies the position that Hinayana is after all an innocuous term, by all means, let's link to that, too.
user:munge 09:12 UTC 22 Dec 03
One might wish that sectarianism and equivocation was exceptional. But if Robert Thurman's translation is to be believed, the Vimalakirti Sutra manages to take a swipe at the Hinayana after having expressed "reverence" to the sravaka. In contrast, the translation by Ven. Guo-go Bhikshu of the Perfect Enlightenment denies the sravaka can reach nirvana; the student in search of a teacher vows not to take instruction from a sravaka; apparently, that's because sravakas are inadequate as teachers, and implies that because the sravaka is so attached to quiescence that it is probably beyond the sravaka's ability to understand the subtlety of what is and isn't quiescent about meditation. If a certain version of the Lankavatara--said to be translated by D. T. Suzuki and Dwight Goddard--is trustworthy, the sravaka are "well meaning but" they have various defects and can't fully get over their egos (although they do get credit for not being entangled in theism, materialism, and atman).
The Amithaba seems to be kindlier toward the sound-hearers, at least in the version said to be translated by Dr. Ron Epstein of the Buddhist Text Translation Society. Multitudes of them have no trouble entering the "Buddhaland". I hope you will forgive me for wondering, however, whether the intent of the Pure Land Sutra was to admit all the sound-hearers, or only those who converted.
My point is not that the Mahayana are evil and the Theravada are innocent victims, patiently tolerating this abuse in accordance with Dhammapada I:3. Here's a quote from John McRae that I find helpul: "...the term Hinayana is legitimately used when working solely within the context of Mahayana doctrines, but not in reference to actual Buddhists of either ancient India or modern Southeast Asia." (cf Seeing Through Zen, p76. (Unfortunately, that quote leaves much to be explained re the Vajrayana tradition.) Frankly I'm not sure of the point because...
...namely 小乘 (log in as "guest") is only one of several Chinese renderings given by Charles Muller in the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism, notably including 劣乘 but also including 下乘, 下劣乘, and 小乘佛教.
Notably, the only Chinese characters that Muller actually cites to a primary source is 劣乘, which (unlike 小乘) clearly carries the stigma of inferior, not just small, and which he cites to the Yogacara-bhumi sastra. Based on that cite, I suppose that when Asanga used the term hinayana, Xuanzang translated it into Chinese as equivalent to "inferior journey" or similar.
In other words, the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism as currently composed supports the idea that there was not a one-to-one correspondence between "hinayana" and the pair of Chinese characters given in the article. Hinayana was a more multivalent phrase than the current article allows. Very regrettably, citing only the two characters as given reflects a particular POV, and does not reflect the various POVs even of all Mahayanists. Specifically it apparently omits Xuanzang's interpretation, and as I showed several messages ago, it whitewashes the POV of Asanga. Not to mention the perspective of Nikaya Buddhists. And not to mention the scholarly perspective that holds (paraphrasing John McRae) that statements that use the term hinayana are statements of Mahayana doctrine. They presuppose belief in that doctrine. It's like saying that Bubba Free John is a necessary intermediary between people and enlightenment. Devotees hold that to be true. That's different from saying that it is true. This is an encyclopedia, not an evangelistic tract.
Notably, I have yet to see evidence one can always rely on the equation hinayana = sravakayana + pratekyabuddhayana. There seem to be too many variant uses by Mahayanists to support that claim, which the current article seems to assert. I note with interest Dogen's apparent use of hinayana to simply mean deluded practitioner, including deluded Mahayanists, including deluded Soto Zen Mahayanists; (see Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation, Bieldefelt, p114; see also Hee-Jin Kim's book on Dogen).
Even within Tibetan Buddhism, perhaps there is not unanimity: I also note with great interest that one Ngak'chang Rinpoche is quoted as saying that "...Hinayana simply exists according to the Tibetan analysis of the range of Buddhist teaching...one should never confuse Hinayana with Theravada. No one practices Hinayana...No one practises Shravakabuddhayana and Pratyekabuddhayana these days in Tibet, or elsewhere for that matter...". It is still possible that I am making a mistake, but these notes and those at Talk:Hinayana/Article Sandbox should make it clear that a wide range of POVs do exist and have existed, and that the current article is a particular POV.
-- Munge 09:57, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Please note that Talk:Hinayana/Article Sandbox now contains an extended quote from the Perfection of Wisdom in 8000 Verses, said to be the "earliest sutra" in the Perfection of Wisdom texts. The 8000 Verses clearly slams those who "prefer an inferior vehicle" and identifies them as those who "prefer the Sutras associated with the level of Sravaka, the Disciple or Pratyekabuddha". Talk:Hinayana/Article Sandbox now also contains quotes from the Brahma Net Sutra, which clearly predates and prefigures Asanga, and explains why Bodhisattvas are not to insult people, even those who follow the teachings of the so-called "Two Vehicles". -- Munge 06:16, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Welcome to those who are interested in the Hinayana article, especially if you are new to wikipedia. Please remember to strive for a Neutral Point of View, and that we are writing an encylopedia (see What Wikipedia is not). Please read the archives above, as there are many issues which have been covered in some manner or another.
This article tends to swing from an anti-mahayana to a pro-mahayana stance. However we are attempting to find a fair NPOV for the article, which remains informative and encyclopaedic. If you wish to help, please do more than to criticise the current copy. Show good reasons, cite sources, and provide evidence - this way your arguments can be accomodated into the article. ( 20040302)
In general, this article is just not readable for someone who has no clue about Hinayana, please stay on topic. -- Solitude 19:17, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
Well, I've been away. When 20040302 start to add section on top of my edit, I was quite sure he was going to change article back to his Tibetan (Hinayana was never projetive) line eventually. I came back and that pretty much seems to be the case. Distinction of Tibetan Vijrayana and Chinese(Oriental)Mahayanan is gone, obviously on this person's belif that Mahayanan tradition undestood by Tibetan is the correct one. I will again make it clear that Hinayana being projetive is a Tibetan viewpoint in accordance with this site policy to promote correct "attribution" of view. One can certainly express "Tibetan" interpretation of the term as long as it is attributed as such. Just don't try to censor other interpretation or for that matter try to present one view point (Tibetan)as the representation of entire category of philosopy (Mahayana) FWBOarticle
Just one point about the edits you made: You are claiming that the PTS states that "Hina" is derogatory - yet, you do not cite from them. I have no problem with keeping the definition of the term, yet your claim is an interpretation, or maybe just poor Engrish.
The other issue that I interpret from your edit is that I gather you feel the article under-represents the position that -if- the term Hinayana was meant to be categorative, -then- the Mahayanists would have coined the term "ksudrayana" instead. However, I'm not sure about that: Kshudra: "minute, diminuitive, tiny, very small, little, trifling, mean, low, vile, wicked, niggardly, avaricious, cruel, poor, indigent" (Monier-Williams) - so it appears that Kshudra has the same connotations that one finds with 'Hina'. Moreover, the Maha/Kshudra pair (not mentioned as apposite in MW) would indicate size rather than quality, which I doubt was the purpose of the authors of the term 'Hinayana'. It appears that the argument you use is not particularly strong. However, if you can show some literary or 3rd person documented support for the argument, then I am sure we can reflect the discussion in the article. ( 20040302 09:42, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC))
Pali text soc. dictionary is here. The claim made in the article checks out OK.
All Pali/Sanskrit diminutives I'm aware of (khudda, appa, thoka) have the potential to connote something disparaging--e.g., a trifle. However, khudda is apparently used as an unambiguously neutral, non-disparaging diminutive in the Pali canon (e.g. see Khuddakapatha). In contrast, I am not aware of the use of hina as a neutral, non-disparaging term in Pali or Sanskrit texts. If there is such a comparable, unambiguously neutral, non-disparaging use of hina in such texts, by all means, let's cite it.
One doesn't have to search long for uses of hina that imply inferior quality. Two examples pop up if you search on hina at accesstoinsight.org, and two more are found in the index of Nanananda's book Concept and Reality. To me, that line of reasoning alone justifies the link to Kare Lie's article, although he makes many other good points. If he is not correct on every point, "never let the perfect stand in the way of the good".
If there is a comparably good link somewhere that justifies the position that Hinayana is after all an innocuous term, by all means, let's link to that, too.
user:munge 09:12 UTC 22 Dec 03
One might wish that sectarianism and equivocation was exceptional. But if Robert Thurman's translation is to be believed, the Vimalakirti Sutra manages to take a swipe at the Hinayana after having expressed "reverence" to the sravaka. In contrast, the translation by Ven. Guo-go Bhikshu of the Perfect Enlightenment denies the sravaka can reach nirvana; the student in search of a teacher vows not to take instruction from a sravaka; apparently, that's because sravakas are inadequate as teachers, and implies that because the sravaka is so attached to quiescence that it is probably beyond the sravaka's ability to understand the subtlety of what is and isn't quiescent about meditation. If a certain version of the Lankavatara--said to be translated by D. T. Suzuki and Dwight Goddard--is trustworthy, the sravaka are "well meaning but" they have various defects and can't fully get over their egos (although they do get credit for not being entangled in theism, materialism, and atman).
The Amithaba seems to be kindlier toward the sound-hearers, at least in the version said to be translated by Dr. Ron Epstein of the Buddhist Text Translation Society. Multitudes of them have no trouble entering the "Buddhaland". I hope you will forgive me for wondering, however, whether the intent of the Pure Land Sutra was to admit all the sound-hearers, or only those who converted.
My point is not that the Mahayana are evil and the Theravada are innocent victims, patiently tolerating this abuse in accordance with Dhammapada I:3. Here's a quote from John McRae that I find helpul: "...the term Hinayana is legitimately used when working solely within the context of Mahayana doctrines, but not in reference to actual Buddhists of either ancient India or modern Southeast Asia." (cf Seeing Through Zen, p76. (Unfortunately, that quote leaves much to be explained re the Vajrayana tradition.) Frankly I'm not sure of the point because...
...namely 小乘 (log in as "guest") is only one of several Chinese renderings given by Charles Muller in the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism, notably including 劣乘 but also including 下乘, 下劣乘, and 小乘佛教.
Notably, the only Chinese characters that Muller actually cites to a primary source is 劣乘, which (unlike 小乘) clearly carries the stigma of inferior, not just small, and which he cites to the Yogacara-bhumi sastra. Based on that cite, I suppose that when Asanga used the term hinayana, Xuanzang translated it into Chinese as equivalent to "inferior journey" or similar.
In other words, the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism as currently composed supports the idea that there was not a one-to-one correspondence between "hinayana" and the pair of Chinese characters given in the article. Hinayana was a more multivalent phrase than the current article allows. Very regrettably, citing only the two characters as given reflects a particular POV, and does not reflect the various POVs even of all Mahayanists. Specifically it apparently omits Xuanzang's interpretation, and as I showed several messages ago, it whitewashes the POV of Asanga. Not to mention the perspective of Nikaya Buddhists. And not to mention the scholarly perspective that holds (paraphrasing John McRae) that statements that use the term hinayana are statements of Mahayana doctrine. They presuppose belief in that doctrine. It's like saying that Bubba Free John is a necessary intermediary between people and enlightenment. Devotees hold that to be true. That's different from saying that it is true. This is an encyclopedia, not an evangelistic tract.
Notably, I have yet to see evidence one can always rely on the equation hinayana = sravakayana + pratekyabuddhayana. There seem to be too many variant uses by Mahayanists to support that claim, which the current article seems to assert. I note with interest Dogen's apparent use of hinayana to simply mean deluded practitioner, including deluded Mahayanists, including deluded Soto Zen Mahayanists; (see Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation, Bieldefelt, p114; see also Hee-Jin Kim's book on Dogen).
Even within Tibetan Buddhism, perhaps there is not unanimity: I also note with great interest that one Ngak'chang Rinpoche is quoted as saying that "...Hinayana simply exists according to the Tibetan analysis of the range of Buddhist teaching...one should never confuse Hinayana with Theravada. No one practices Hinayana...No one practises Shravakabuddhayana and Pratyekabuddhayana these days in Tibet, or elsewhere for that matter...". It is still possible that I am making a mistake, but these notes and those at Talk:Hinayana/Article Sandbox should make it clear that a wide range of POVs do exist and have existed, and that the current article is a particular POV.
-- Munge 09:57, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Please note that Talk:Hinayana/Article Sandbox now contains an extended quote from the Perfection of Wisdom in 8000 Verses, said to be the "earliest sutra" in the Perfection of Wisdom texts. The 8000 Verses clearly slams those who "prefer an inferior vehicle" and identifies them as those who "prefer the Sutras associated with the level of Sravaka, the Disciple or Pratyekabuddha". Talk:Hinayana/Article Sandbox now also contains quotes from the Brahma Net Sutra, which clearly predates and prefigures Asanga, and explains why Bodhisattvas are not to insult people, even those who follow the teachings of the so-called "Two Vehicles". -- Munge 06:16, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)