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User:Fowler&fowler has mass reverted several of my edits (which included sourced and cited content, addition of better quality image, and expansion of already existing citations) thrice now: 1, 2 (also implied the edits were "trash" here), 3; all without explaining why. Here are my edits, each containing a detailed explanation in the edit summary. -- UnpetitproleX ( talk) 00:37, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
These are the edits they keep mass reverting:
UnpetitproleX ( talk) 00:54, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
It restricts tourism – the trekking and mountaineering season is limited to either before the monsoon in April/May or after the monsoon in October/November (autumn). In Nepal and Sikkim, there are often considered to be five seasons: summer, monsoon, autumn, (or post-monsoon), winter, and spring.you have plonked down the incoherent addition,
Additionally, the western disturbance brings winter precipitation, causing high rainfall and heavy snow in the west.What does it have to do with either sentence? We are talking about a lack of narrative coherence. What am I supposed to do with it, when I come to examine your edits?
The intensity of the monsoon generally recedes from the east to the west.
At some point, the edits are not worth salvaging as it is not clear how they should be salvaged. As this is a vital article in which there is a reasonable text in place, not perfect but reasonable, and coherent, your edits cannot stay with unsightly inline stages querying this or that. Further, I don't have to time to do that. I have no option but to revert. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:09, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
The regional climate of the Himalayas is predominated by the southwest monsoons and the western disturbances. The uplift of the Pir Panjal to its present height is believed to restrict the southwest monsoons from entering into the Kashmir Valley in the western Himalayas. [1]
The uplift of the Pir Panjal mountain range (3–4 Ma ago) to its present height has blocked south-west monsoons from entering into the valleyand cites it further to two sources. This assertion is further repeated several times in the source. It is also present (but not cited to this particular source) in the climate section of the Kashmir and Jammu and Kashmir articles.
Higher intercept signifies the dominant contribution of precipitation from western disturbances (70 % of precipitation to the valley) than the south-west monsoon (30%).
In the furthest west of the Himalayas, in the west of the Kashmir valley and the Indus valley, the South Asian monsoon is no longer a dominant factor and most precipitation falls in the spring. Srinagar receives around 723 mm (28 in) around half the rainfall of locations such as Shimla and Kathmandu, with the wettest months being March and April.” This doesn’t reflect what the source itself says. The claim that it is the westerly location of Kashmir valley and Srinagar that is responsible for the diminished monsoon and not the Pir Panjal’s rain shadow effect, is wholly unfounded.
the Pir Panjal range acts as a barrier to the monsoon winds reaching the Kashmir valley, resulting in the monsoon no longer being a dominant factor there, and the monsoon season accounts for less than one-third of Srinagar's total annual precipitation” reflecting what the source actually says. I moved the text to the paragraph about local topography overriding monsoons, since this is clearly an example of that.
For much of the Himalayas – that on the south side of the high mountains, except in the furthest west, the most characteristic feature of the climate is the monsoon”. But Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistan-administered AJK, receives around 70% of its precipitation due to the monsoon (and over 45% of it in just the two months of July and August), Murree—the westernmost British-era Himalayan hill station—receives 60% (40% in just July and August), Rawalakot gets 66% (50% in July and August), Balakot about 55% (40% in July-August). These are all located in the furthest west of the Himalayas, on the south side. They are all located at a location that is more westerly than the Kashmir valley, btw, and a great example of how the Pir Panjal block the monsoons from lashing the Kashmir valley (these towns are all located on the windward side of the range, unlike the valley which is on the leeward side). So how is the monsoon not the most dominant climatic feature on the south side in the furthest west? This was removed by me with an edit summary that is as condensed a form of this paragraph as it could possibly be. UnpetitproleX ( talk) 15:58, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
I apologize, @ UnpetitproleX:, you had not originally made one long edit comprising many small edits in different sections. I erroneously assumed that when I was looking at the diff between two reverts, in which all your edits appeared at once. Again, I apologize.
.
Now to the issues at hand. When tertiary sources, such as textbooks, suggest that the primary determinants of climate in the Himalayas are latitude, longitude, and the monsoon, they are talking about the vicinity of the backbone of the range, the Great Himalayas, which determines the speed with which the monsoon moves along the Himalayas and up them. That Tibet, or Mustang, lies leeward of the moisture-laden monsoon winds, or in their rain shadow, is a reference to the backbone, the very highest. In addition, there are also local weather changes in the Himalayas.
What was in place before you made your edits, summarized the above with reasonable generality and eloquence, The vast size, huge altitude range, and complex topography of the Himalayas mean they experience a wide range of climates, from humid subtropical in the foothills to cold and dry desert conditions on the Tibetan side of the range.
The text went on to say, For much of the Himalayas – that on the south side of the high mountains, except in the furthest west, the most characteristic feature of the climate is the monsoon. Heavy rain arrives during the southwest monsoon in June and persists until September.
This, in my view, you attempted to qualify with exceptions of undue weight. In fact, I won't be surprised most WP:TERTIARY sources, eg textbooks state that the monsoon decreases in intensity as one proceeds west below the Himalayas, and in addition it the rain associated with it increases with height up to 6,000 feet, after which it drops off. (There are other factors as well. I will have to look for a textbook but I'm sure I'll find one.)
The pre-existing text subsequently went from the general to the particular by adding some vignette-like sentences: The monsoon can seriously impact transport and cause major landslides. It restricts tourism – the trekking and mountaineering season is limited to either before the monsoon in April/May or after the monsoon in October/November (autumn). In Nepal and Sikkim, there are often considered to be five seasons: summer, monsoon, autumn, (or post-monsoon), winter, and spring.
Even these were quite general; at least the first sentence was. As I've explained before, between the last two sentences, you added the sentence, "Additionally, the
western disturbance brings winter precipitation, causing high rainfall and heavy snow in the west,"
which you then cited to Britannica, which is winter disturbances bringing snow to the high mountains.
Later, after the article discusses the rain-shadow regions of the Great Himalayas—not dissimilar to my second paragraph above—you add the sentences, Similarly, the
Pir Panjal range acts as a barrier to the monsoon winds reaching the Kashmir valley, resulting in the monsoon no longer being a dominant factor there, and the monsoon season accounts for less than one-third of Srinagar's total annual precipitation.
.
This may be true in some specialist sense, factoring in some local weather anomalies, but it will be a mystery to most people, as the Pir Panjal range lies to the southwest of Srinagar, which you may observe in the high-res map of Kashmir I recently uploaded on WP, File:Kashmir region. LOC 2003626427 - showing sub-regions administered by different countries.jpg. We also know that the southwest monsoon paradoxically (for its name) moves along the Himalayas from the southeast to the northwest. What moisture-laden monsoon winds blowing in the Himalayan latitudes from the southeast will be stopped by the Pir Panjal from reaching Srinagar? Srinagar lies to the northwest of the Pir Panjal.
On the other hand, if the monsoon winds approach the valley from the southwest or the south, then you need to explain why that might be the case. If it is the case, then it is not a surprise that it sheds most of its moisture before it reaches 6,000 feet, the end of the height gradient after which the rain diminishes with further height. I have no idea how reliable your source is, what context and with what nuance it stated what it did, but its paraphrased inclusion, in the manner in which you have attempted to do, serves no encyclopedic purpose unless you are able to explain in simple language in the article why the monsoon winds in Kashmir blow from the southwest or the south, and not the southeast or east. Without a clearly understood proviso, written in simple prose, the text does not promote easily comprehensible knowledge. It is recondite content in the midst of the widely known and accepted. These sorts of errors are not easily sorted, let alone corrected. I have already pointed out errors of coherence and usage earlier.
In the past, I have suggested in all sincerity and good faith to others who make similar errors of coherence and cohesion, not to mention inadequately summarized source content, on vital Wikipedia articles to cut their teeth first on simple, small articles, where the scales of description are narrower and less tiered. It takes a long time to master this.
All the best, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:52, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
And here is an extended quote from a textbook that I just ordered on Kindle. First the quote, and then I'll cite it.
One of the most influential factors affecting the Himalayan climate is the Asian monsoon. The monsoon is not a rain but a wind that carries rain in the summer months. The wind is triggered by enormous air pressure differences between Central and South Asia, which occur as a result of the differential heating and cooling of the inner continent and the surrounding oceans. In the winter, a high-pressure system hovers above Central Asia, forcing air to flow southward across the Himalaya. Because there is no significant source of moisture, the winter winds are dry. In the summer, however, a low-pressure system forms over Central Asia and pulls moisture-laden air northward. The wet summer winds cause precipitation in India and along the tiered, southern slopes of the Himalaya. The water-laden monsoon air flowing north over the Himalaya is forced to ascend the mountains, where it cools, condensing and releasing its moisture as rain. This forced lifting of air over the mountains is called the orographic effect, and it creates a concentrated pattern of precipitation in the Himalaya.
The monsoon begins in the eastern sector of the range, in Arunachal Pradesh and Bhutan, at around the end of May. It then slowly moves westward, reaching Kashmir in the western Himalaya by late June or early July. As it moves westward, the monsoon also becomes drier. In the eastern region, the famous weather station at Cherrapunji in Assam records an annual rainfall of 10,871 millimeters, with a single-day record of 1,041 millimeters. This spot is the second-wettest place in the world, following Mount Waialeale in Hawaii, which receives an average annual rainfall of 12,344 millimeters. But whereas the rainfall on Mount Waialeale occurs throughout the year, Cherrapunji receives almost all its annual precipitation during the few monsoon months.
The monsoon precipitation drops progressively as one proceeds west, with annual receipts in Darjeeling of 3,122 millimeters; Kathmandu, 1,688 millimeters; and Jammu, 1,096 millimeters. There is a vertical gradient in rainfall amounts in addition to the longitudinal shift. An increase in rainfall occurs with altitude up to a maximum precipitation zone, which in the Himalaya occurs around 2,000 meters, after which it begins to drop again. The precise measurement of this gradient is difficult, in part because of the absence of recording stations at high elevations, but also because so many other factors, such as wind and solar direction, play critical roles in local temperature and precipitation accounts. In certain circumstances, however, the elevation factor actually supersedes the east to west longitudinal gradient.
When the wet wind from the south is carried over the High Himalaya, it has already lost much of its moisture, and the amount that remains is locked up as vapor when the air subtly warms as it descends onto the Tibetan Plateau. Consequently, the trans-Himalayan zone, in the lee of the high peaks, is dry. This is the so-called rain shadow effect. The barrier of the Himalaya results in startling contrasts. Precipitation in Nepal, for example, diminishes from 5,202 millimeters in Lumle, located on the southern side of Annapurna in central Nepal, to 174 millimeters on the north side of the same mountain. In Leh in Ladakh, which is located north of the main central thrust of the western Himalaya, annual precipitation is only 76 millimeters. In the eastern and central regions, it is possible to walk in only a few days from lush, wet forests to stark, cold, high deserts. Such transects make it clear that regional patterns of climate are often less important than local ones, which can vary in extreme ways over short distances.
It is from Illustrated Atlas of the Himalya by David Zurick & Julsun Pacheco With Basanta Shrestha & Birendra Bajracharya, University Press of Kentucky Lexington, 2006. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 00:21, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
As it moves westward, the monsoon also becomes drier” and “
The monsoon precipitation drops progressively as one proceeds west, with annual receipts in Darjeeling of 3,122 millimeters; Kathmandu, 1,688 millimeters; and Jammu, 1,096 millimeters”, both of which is to say that the monsoon diminishes in its intensity as it moves westward. Also note that Jammu, which lies on the windward side of the Pir Panjal, is used as an example, not Srinagar. UnpetitproleX ( talk) 03:49, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
As you will see from the book, what I was stating from memory is pretty much the case, including the vertical gradients of 2000 m = 6000 feet. I have to run now to buy some medicine for our last cat whose litter-mate of 16 years died recently. His gentle spirit for which she is mourning keeps me from speaking my mind about this shameful waste of my time. Utterly shameful. Utterly, utterly, shameful. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 00:27, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
Until you explain in lucid encyclopedic language why the Pir Panjal, which lies to the southwest of the Kashmir Valley acts as a barrier to the monsoon entering the valley, which is to say, why the monsoon winds blow from the southwest into the valley and not the southeast or east as they move progressively northwestward in the shadow of the Great Himalayas, this conversation will not proceed. I need a clear statement cited to a widely used textbook (per WP:SOURCETYPES and WP:TERTIARY such as the one I produced). This is a vital article, not something to which we can add some obscure details that without ancillary explanations strain the intuition. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 09:16, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
Similarly, the Pir Panjal range acts as a barrier to the monsoon winds reaching the Kashmir valley, resulting in the monsoon no longer being a dominant factor there, and the monsoon season accounts for less than one-third of Srinagar's total annual precipitation.[45]
I have read your explanation of Pir Panjal in the section somewhere above. Here is my sense of what is happening (i.e. my understanding and speculation):
The monsoon does decrease from the west to the east, but as I've explained before it is dependent both on longitude and elevation. The rain increases up to 2,000 m (6,000 ft) after which it decreases. If Dharmsala receives more SW monsoon rain than Darjeeling, then I bet, and I haven't checked, it is quite a bit lower than Darjeeling (nearly 7,000 ft), which I know from the FAR. So it is not a counter-example to the general proposition that the monsoon decreases in strength from east to west. That is because:
There is a general principle here. Central Asia has a low-pressure system in the summer. It pulls moisture-laden air from the Indian ocean below. This air current is the definition of the monsoon. The Indian summer monsoon splits into two branches—the first moves across the Western Ghats. The second does over the Bay of Bengal. This second branch encounters the Himalayas and is simultaneously lifted to release its moisture and deflected northwestwards. The segment that gets over the Himalayas has shed practically all its moisture and what is there is locked up as vapor, as the textbook says, and there is no rain in Tibet, the rain shadow.
The moisture is limited. The monsoon does not pick up any further moisture over India. Therefore the segment that is deflected northwestward has less moisture as it has already shed some.
It continues to press against the Himalayas, albeit at smaller angles of inclination. The component of the force that draws it over the mountains consequently is smaller (it being the cosine of the complementary angle; as the latter becomes progressively larger, its cosine progressively smaller).
Regardless, the monsoon soldiers on. When it reaches the Indian western Himalayas, i.e. the Kumaon Himalayas, say the Pithoragarh region, the mountain range itself begins to turn northwestward, i.e. WNW to NW. The component of the northern monsoon which rises (i.e. encounters the Himalayas head-on) is smaller. Again this is because less monsoon wind is being forced up and it has less moisture. The rain it creates will be less.
The Himalayas moreover spilt into several ranges in Kashmir, the Ladakh range, the Central Range, and the Lesser Himalayas on the west. Each one creates a rain shadow effect. Aksai Chin is in the rain shadow of the Ladakh range; Leh is in the rain shadow of the Central range, and ??? is in the rain shadow of the Lesser Himalayas, of which Pir Panjal is a part. Your edit suggested that it was all of the Kashmir Valley. That is the part I do not understand.
Speculating now: it can be if the monsoon winds are blowing from the southwest, encountering the range at right angles, which I asked above; or it can simply be if there is no gap between the Central Range and the Pir Panjal in the south, i.e. in this intermontane valley, and the monsoon keeps being deflected westward as it has been by the Ladakh and Central ranges, and indeed by all the earlier ranges of the Great Himalayas.
If the latter is the case, it needs to be stated with clarity and all three examples need to be given: the valley, Leh, and Aksai Chin. That is the way to do it. I will now check if there is a gap between the PP and the Central Himalayas in Kashmir. I will also check the Dharamsala bit. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:22, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
I've asked this twice above, both times to no reply, so I'm making this subsection specifically for this. Are you saying, and please state clearly without ambiguity, that the Pir Panjal is not responsible for the diminished monsoon in Kashmir valley? Is that your assertion? UnpetitproleX ( talk) 19:13, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
how can the southwest monsoon which moves across the himalayas from the southeast be stopped by the pir panjal?”
What moisture-laden monsoon winds blowing in the Himalayan latitudes from the southeast will be stopped by the Pir Panjal from reaching Srinagar? Srinagar lies to the northwest of the Pir Panjal.”
Until you explain . . . why the Pir Panjal, which lies to the southwest of the Kashmir Valley acts as a barrier to the monsoon entering the valley, . . . this conversation will not proceed” (full text in the “A note” subsection above). UnpetitproleX ( talk) 10:11, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
And finally, I am stating this here clearly that I will not be participating in their "you write your version I write mine" game, since I don't think we need to throw away the whole climate section amd begin from scratch, but only that it needs to be fixed. I will, however, be reinstating every edit that they have not individually objected to with statement of which WP policy such objection stems from. They have mass reverted several edits, but so far only objected to the Pir Panjal bit, the wording of the "east-west" gradient bit and the placement (not content) of the western disturbance bit. For these I will either open new talk page discussions or take to dispute resolution. UnpetitproleX ( talk) 10:24, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 10:37, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
In addition to Zurick and Pecheco's Illustrated Atlas of the Himalaya mentioned above, I have now examined a dozen other broad scale books on the Monsoon, Mountain Climate, and General Climate. Among them are the classics: Roger G. Barry and Richard Chorley's Atmosphere, Weather, and Climate, 9th edition, Routledge, 2010; Peter Clift and R. Alan Plumb's The Asian Monsoon: Causes, History and Effects, Cambridge, and Barry's Mountain Weather and Climate, Cambridge. None of these four books nor the ten others had any mention of Pir Panjal in the context of the summer monsoon.
Several however did mention Ladakh being in the rain shadow of the NW Great Himalayas, in addition to Tibet of the Central Himalayas (the whole range really). All this gave me pause. I then examined the journal articles (i.e. the specialist literature). Some journal articles published by Indian meteorologists (quite a few from Kashmir) did make that claim but without any real explanation. There was one article that did use " orographic effect" which is what I was looking for, but it was about flora and fauna (or some similar topic) and this fact was mentioned in the commonplace verities of the introduction. Barry and others have said several times that the gradient of the orographic rainfall depends not only on monsoon airflow and altitude but also on slope orientation.
I went back to Zurick and Pecheco's atlas and found the accompanying map of the SW monsoon rainfall in centimeters. It has equipotential lines, i.e. lines of equal display strength, in this instance summer rain. They run right through the bottom right of the valley, an intermontane valley between the Pir Panjal to the bottom left and the Great Himalayas to the top right. I then checked the altitude of the Pir Panjal range at the bottom right. It was in the range of 6500 ft = little above 2000 m where the orographic rainfall stops increasing but certainly does not die out. This explains why the lines run through. There is a more well-defined break and that is between the red and yellow lines between which I suspect the Great Himalayas run, ending at their western anchor the
Nanga Parbat. This is mentioned in the map caption above the map on page 52: "Precipitation (shown in centimeters) in the form of summer rain and winter snow has a pronounced seasonal and regional distribution, corresponding to the northward penetration of the summer monsoon and the rain shadow effect produced by the High Himalayas.
There are two maps there, one for the summer rain, the other for the winter snow. It doesn't mean that there are no pockets of decreased rain in the valley caused by the Pir Panjal, but because of a number of factors (a. the monsoon current is weak by then and unable to proceed up a mountain with the same force; b. the orientation of the PP in the west is roughly in the same direction as the SW monsoon airflow; c. the PPs are not that high in the south where they more transversally intersect the monsoon airflow, to have the optimum orographic effect needed for a rain shadow (as stated, they are approx 2500 m in the south, which is the point at which the orographic rainfall stops increasing but does not cease entirely) and finally d. because the PPs and the valley would need to be much better and more thickly instrumented (than the scattered measuring stations in the map on page 2 of the paper cited below) to record similar but more subtle claims of some rain-shadow-like effects in the Kashmir valley), a statement about PP in this article in the context of the summer monsoon in the Himalayas would be undue. This is my considered view at this point and this state of my knowledge. Had the valley been a rain shadow, the equipotential lines would not have run through so decisively into the lower Ladakh and upper Indian regions. I will continue to try to understand the problem and will keep writing a version of the climate section beginning after I am done with the Darjeeling FAR. Best, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 21:55, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
The Pir Panjal range prevents much of the summer rainfall associated with the southwest monsoon from reaching Kashmir. The mean annual precipitation at Srinagar, in Kashmir basin, is 659 mm, of which 24 per cent falls during summer. This compares with Jammu, to the south of the Pir Panjal, where 67 per cent of the mean annual precipitation (1116 mm) falls during the summer monsoon (July–September). Abundant meteorological data, mainly from basin-floor stations, show that annual precipitation in Kashmir ranges from 584 to 1229 mm, although there is no clear spatial pattern.” UnpetitproleX ( talk) 10:03, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
The mountain flanks are cooler and wetter than the basin floor, although few data are available to quantify the differences,” he’s talking about the spatial differences within (or inside) the Kashmir valley, not about orographic rainfall on the southern slopes of the Pir Panjal. He is not doubting the barrier effect of the Pir Panjal range, which he states almost as a fact. The Pir Panjal are simply too tall for significant infiltration of rain-carrying monsoon winds into the Kashmir valley. Some does still pierce through the small gaps in the south and monsoon brings enough rain for the monsoon season to be called “Vuhraat” (rainy season) in the Kashmiri language. Regardless, spring remains the wettest season in Kashmir, more than twice as wet as monsoon. UnpetitproleX ( talk) 05:11, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Abundant meteorological data, mainly from basin-floor stations, show that annual precipitation in Kashmir ranges from 584 to 1229 mm, although there is no clear spatial pattern. Temperature is measured at few sites. At Srinagar, mean monthly maximum ranges from 9.7 °C (January) to 35.5 °C (July); mean monthly minimum ranges from –6.7 °C (January) to 14.5 °C (July). The mountain flanks are cooler and wetter than the basin floor, although few data are available to quantify the differences.” He is most definitely talking about differences within (or inside) Kashmir valley. It is not my interpretation, it is what the source says. UnpetitproleX ( talk) 15:32, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Holmes on glaciation thresholds (GTs) in the NW Himalayas
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Modern glaciers were investigated using information from Survey of India 1:63,360 scale maps produced before independence in 1947. These maps depict relief, drainage and glacier cover with acceptable accuracy. Although all altitudes and distances on the maps are in imperial units, these have been converted to metric units for this study. GTs were determined for each 5′ east × 5′ north quadrangle using the method of Østrem (1961). The value for the GT was plotted at the quadrangle centre and isoglacihypses (lines of equal GT) were drawn. A height method was used to determine the ELA for each glacier, since the area of each glacier as depicted on the maps is quite generalized. Toe and headwall altitudes are shown clearly for many glaciers. Previous work on the glaciers of Kashmir has not provided sufficient detail for a value of the THAR to be calculated, so a value of 0.4 (Meierding, 1982) was employed. Mean values of ELAs for north�facing (N ± 30 °) glaciers in each 5′×5′ quadrangle were calculated and isoglacihypses of equal ELA drawn. Calculations of the GT yielded 40 data points. There is a clear distinction in the height of the GT between the Pir Panjal range and the Great Himalayan range. Broadly, the GT rises from 4100–4500 m in the Pir Panjal range to 4600– 4700 m in the Great Himalayan range. The GT was also determined for several quadrangles further to the east, beyond the Kashmir watershed, where it is generally higher than 4700 m (Figure 3.2). This general pattern is best explained by the existence of a precipitation gradient. There are two major sources of precipitation received in Kashmir: one from the south and southeast, associated with summer monsoon disturbances; the other from the west, associated with winter westerly depressions. In either case, the glacierized part of the Pir Panjal range would receive more precipitation than the Great Himalayan range. The aridity of Ladakh, for example, is well shown by the abrupt change in vegetation seen when crossing the watershed from Kashmir. The pattern of isoglacihypses also shows topographic control. The glacierized part of Kashmir runs broadly in a southwest�northeast direction and this follows the axis of high mountains. Thus, although other parts of Kashmir may have the climatic potential to support glaciers, the mountains are too low. Therefore, the apparent rise in GTs from southwest to northeast reflects control by both precipitation and topography. The gradient of the GTs is indicated by the spacing of the isoglacihypses. The gradient of the GT is consistently high on the Pir Panjal flank, ranging from 20 to 68 m km−1. On the Himalayan flank, the gradient varies from 5 to 68 m km−1. Whereas the lower values of the GT gradient are well within the range of figures quoted for other areas, the higher gradients exceed published values by a factor of two (e.g. Porter, 1977). It is possible that the values for Kashmir are incorrect, owing to errors in the topographic information on the maps. However, the highest gradients are, in most cases, constrained by several data points and are a feature of both mountain flanks, Therefore, some reason other than data error is required to explain the large GT gradient. The gradients quoted by Porter (1977) refer to mid- to high latitude, maritime mountain ranges. The highest gradient, ~25 m km−1, occurs in mid-latitude ranges, in areas of high precipitation. In these maritime regions, precipitation is high on the coast and declines inland, leading to a sharp GT gradient. Locally, precipitation often interacts with topography. For example, low GT gradients are frequently found in association with cols in maritime ranges which are oriented broadly perpendicular to the direction of airflow. This is because the cols allow greater inland penetration of moist, maritime air masses (e.g. Porter, 1977). The effect of this is to produce bulges in the isoglacihypses. On the Pir Panjal flank, the isoglacihypses follow the topography quite closely, although they show two quite pronounced bulges which are associated with two cols in the headwater regions of the Rembiara and Vishav valleys (Figure 3.2). These cols presumably allow greater penetration of moist air over the Pir Panjal crest. However, the steepness of the GT gradient indicates a marked decrease in precipitation north and northeastward, suggesting that the rainshadow effect of the Pir Panjal range must be very strong. The pattern of isoglacihypses on the Himalayan flank is more difficult to explain. The presence of pronounced bulges suggests that precipitation and topography may be controlling the GT, especially since the bulges coincide partially with the two major valleys that drain the Himalayan flank. The steepest GT gradient occurs close to the watershed with Ladakh. This is to be expected, since the watershed marks a very narrow zone of pronounced precipitation decline. In summary, the rainshadow effect of the Pir Panjal range and the location of the high altitude mountains appear to have produced a southwest-northeast rise in the GT, with local variations, including very high GT gradients in some areas. Although this may in part be a product of poor-quality data, topographic variations appear to produce local, steep, precipitation gradients which, in turn, affect the GT. |
I do not wish to keep going around in circles, and the need and pattern of your reverts can be discussed later, so here's a proposal:
I've made the above edits, and out of courtesy I'm also pinging you (though I surely don't need to) @ Fowler&fowler: about the images that I've added to the climate section. You can see them here on the right side, with the captions that I've added them with. Have dug the depths of commons for these images (because apparently people simply do not properly categorise pictures). Both are QIs, both taken roughly the same time of the year (Sep-Oct). I think the rainshadow effect of the great Himalayan range is beautifully conveyed through these, let me know if you think otherwise. UnpetitproleX ( talk) 09:02, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
User:Fowler&fowler has mass reverted several of my edits (which included sourced and cited content, addition of better quality image, and expansion of already existing citations) thrice now: 1, 2 (also implied the edits were "trash" here), 3; all without explaining why. Here are my edits, each containing a detailed explanation in the edit summary. -- UnpetitproleX ( talk) 00:37, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
These are the edits they keep mass reverting:
UnpetitproleX ( talk) 00:54, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
It restricts tourism – the trekking and mountaineering season is limited to either before the monsoon in April/May or after the monsoon in October/November (autumn). In Nepal and Sikkim, there are often considered to be five seasons: summer, monsoon, autumn, (or post-monsoon), winter, and spring.you have plonked down the incoherent addition,
Additionally, the western disturbance brings winter precipitation, causing high rainfall and heavy snow in the west.What does it have to do with either sentence? We are talking about a lack of narrative coherence. What am I supposed to do with it, when I come to examine your edits?
The intensity of the monsoon generally recedes from the east to the west.
At some point, the edits are not worth salvaging as it is not clear how they should be salvaged. As this is a vital article in which there is a reasonable text in place, not perfect but reasonable, and coherent, your edits cannot stay with unsightly inline stages querying this or that. Further, I don't have to time to do that. I have no option but to revert. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:09, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
The regional climate of the Himalayas is predominated by the southwest monsoons and the western disturbances. The uplift of the Pir Panjal to its present height is believed to restrict the southwest monsoons from entering into the Kashmir Valley in the western Himalayas. [1]
The uplift of the Pir Panjal mountain range (3–4 Ma ago) to its present height has blocked south-west monsoons from entering into the valleyand cites it further to two sources. This assertion is further repeated several times in the source. It is also present (but not cited to this particular source) in the climate section of the Kashmir and Jammu and Kashmir articles.
Higher intercept signifies the dominant contribution of precipitation from western disturbances (70 % of precipitation to the valley) than the south-west monsoon (30%).
In the furthest west of the Himalayas, in the west of the Kashmir valley and the Indus valley, the South Asian monsoon is no longer a dominant factor and most precipitation falls in the spring. Srinagar receives around 723 mm (28 in) around half the rainfall of locations such as Shimla and Kathmandu, with the wettest months being March and April.” This doesn’t reflect what the source itself says. The claim that it is the westerly location of Kashmir valley and Srinagar that is responsible for the diminished monsoon and not the Pir Panjal’s rain shadow effect, is wholly unfounded.
the Pir Panjal range acts as a barrier to the monsoon winds reaching the Kashmir valley, resulting in the monsoon no longer being a dominant factor there, and the monsoon season accounts for less than one-third of Srinagar's total annual precipitation” reflecting what the source actually says. I moved the text to the paragraph about local topography overriding monsoons, since this is clearly an example of that.
For much of the Himalayas – that on the south side of the high mountains, except in the furthest west, the most characteristic feature of the climate is the monsoon”. But Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistan-administered AJK, receives around 70% of its precipitation due to the monsoon (and over 45% of it in just the two months of July and August), Murree—the westernmost British-era Himalayan hill station—receives 60% (40% in just July and August), Rawalakot gets 66% (50% in July and August), Balakot about 55% (40% in July-August). These are all located in the furthest west of the Himalayas, on the south side. They are all located at a location that is more westerly than the Kashmir valley, btw, and a great example of how the Pir Panjal block the monsoons from lashing the Kashmir valley (these towns are all located on the windward side of the range, unlike the valley which is on the leeward side). So how is the monsoon not the most dominant climatic feature on the south side in the furthest west? This was removed by me with an edit summary that is as condensed a form of this paragraph as it could possibly be. UnpetitproleX ( talk) 15:58, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
I apologize, @ UnpetitproleX:, you had not originally made one long edit comprising many small edits in different sections. I erroneously assumed that when I was looking at the diff between two reverts, in which all your edits appeared at once. Again, I apologize.
.
Now to the issues at hand. When tertiary sources, such as textbooks, suggest that the primary determinants of climate in the Himalayas are latitude, longitude, and the monsoon, they are talking about the vicinity of the backbone of the range, the Great Himalayas, which determines the speed with which the monsoon moves along the Himalayas and up them. That Tibet, or Mustang, lies leeward of the moisture-laden monsoon winds, or in their rain shadow, is a reference to the backbone, the very highest. In addition, there are also local weather changes in the Himalayas.
What was in place before you made your edits, summarized the above with reasonable generality and eloquence, The vast size, huge altitude range, and complex topography of the Himalayas mean they experience a wide range of climates, from humid subtropical in the foothills to cold and dry desert conditions on the Tibetan side of the range.
The text went on to say, For much of the Himalayas – that on the south side of the high mountains, except in the furthest west, the most characteristic feature of the climate is the monsoon. Heavy rain arrives during the southwest monsoon in June and persists until September.
This, in my view, you attempted to qualify with exceptions of undue weight. In fact, I won't be surprised most WP:TERTIARY sources, eg textbooks state that the monsoon decreases in intensity as one proceeds west below the Himalayas, and in addition it the rain associated with it increases with height up to 6,000 feet, after which it drops off. (There are other factors as well. I will have to look for a textbook but I'm sure I'll find one.)
The pre-existing text subsequently went from the general to the particular by adding some vignette-like sentences: The monsoon can seriously impact transport and cause major landslides. It restricts tourism – the trekking and mountaineering season is limited to either before the monsoon in April/May or after the monsoon in October/November (autumn). In Nepal and Sikkim, there are often considered to be five seasons: summer, monsoon, autumn, (or post-monsoon), winter, and spring.
Even these were quite general; at least the first sentence was. As I've explained before, between the last two sentences, you added the sentence, "Additionally, the
western disturbance brings winter precipitation, causing high rainfall and heavy snow in the west,"
which you then cited to Britannica, which is winter disturbances bringing snow to the high mountains.
Later, after the article discusses the rain-shadow regions of the Great Himalayas—not dissimilar to my second paragraph above—you add the sentences, Similarly, the
Pir Panjal range acts as a barrier to the monsoon winds reaching the Kashmir valley, resulting in the monsoon no longer being a dominant factor there, and the monsoon season accounts for less than one-third of Srinagar's total annual precipitation.
.
This may be true in some specialist sense, factoring in some local weather anomalies, but it will be a mystery to most people, as the Pir Panjal range lies to the southwest of Srinagar, which you may observe in the high-res map of Kashmir I recently uploaded on WP, File:Kashmir region. LOC 2003626427 - showing sub-regions administered by different countries.jpg. We also know that the southwest monsoon paradoxically (for its name) moves along the Himalayas from the southeast to the northwest. What moisture-laden monsoon winds blowing in the Himalayan latitudes from the southeast will be stopped by the Pir Panjal from reaching Srinagar? Srinagar lies to the northwest of the Pir Panjal.
On the other hand, if the monsoon winds approach the valley from the southwest or the south, then you need to explain why that might be the case. If it is the case, then it is not a surprise that it sheds most of its moisture before it reaches 6,000 feet, the end of the height gradient after which the rain diminishes with further height. I have no idea how reliable your source is, what context and with what nuance it stated what it did, but its paraphrased inclusion, in the manner in which you have attempted to do, serves no encyclopedic purpose unless you are able to explain in simple language in the article why the monsoon winds in Kashmir blow from the southwest or the south, and not the southeast or east. Without a clearly understood proviso, written in simple prose, the text does not promote easily comprehensible knowledge. It is recondite content in the midst of the widely known and accepted. These sorts of errors are not easily sorted, let alone corrected. I have already pointed out errors of coherence and usage earlier.
In the past, I have suggested in all sincerity and good faith to others who make similar errors of coherence and cohesion, not to mention inadequately summarized source content, on vital Wikipedia articles to cut their teeth first on simple, small articles, where the scales of description are narrower and less tiered. It takes a long time to master this.
All the best, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:52, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
And here is an extended quote from a textbook that I just ordered on Kindle. First the quote, and then I'll cite it.
One of the most influential factors affecting the Himalayan climate is the Asian monsoon. The monsoon is not a rain but a wind that carries rain in the summer months. The wind is triggered by enormous air pressure differences between Central and South Asia, which occur as a result of the differential heating and cooling of the inner continent and the surrounding oceans. In the winter, a high-pressure system hovers above Central Asia, forcing air to flow southward across the Himalaya. Because there is no significant source of moisture, the winter winds are dry. In the summer, however, a low-pressure system forms over Central Asia and pulls moisture-laden air northward. The wet summer winds cause precipitation in India and along the tiered, southern slopes of the Himalaya. The water-laden monsoon air flowing north over the Himalaya is forced to ascend the mountains, where it cools, condensing and releasing its moisture as rain. This forced lifting of air over the mountains is called the orographic effect, and it creates a concentrated pattern of precipitation in the Himalaya.
The monsoon begins in the eastern sector of the range, in Arunachal Pradesh and Bhutan, at around the end of May. It then slowly moves westward, reaching Kashmir in the western Himalaya by late June or early July. As it moves westward, the monsoon also becomes drier. In the eastern region, the famous weather station at Cherrapunji in Assam records an annual rainfall of 10,871 millimeters, with a single-day record of 1,041 millimeters. This spot is the second-wettest place in the world, following Mount Waialeale in Hawaii, which receives an average annual rainfall of 12,344 millimeters. But whereas the rainfall on Mount Waialeale occurs throughout the year, Cherrapunji receives almost all its annual precipitation during the few monsoon months.
The monsoon precipitation drops progressively as one proceeds west, with annual receipts in Darjeeling of 3,122 millimeters; Kathmandu, 1,688 millimeters; and Jammu, 1,096 millimeters. There is a vertical gradient in rainfall amounts in addition to the longitudinal shift. An increase in rainfall occurs with altitude up to a maximum precipitation zone, which in the Himalaya occurs around 2,000 meters, after which it begins to drop again. The precise measurement of this gradient is difficult, in part because of the absence of recording stations at high elevations, but also because so many other factors, such as wind and solar direction, play critical roles in local temperature and precipitation accounts. In certain circumstances, however, the elevation factor actually supersedes the east to west longitudinal gradient.
When the wet wind from the south is carried over the High Himalaya, it has already lost much of its moisture, and the amount that remains is locked up as vapor when the air subtly warms as it descends onto the Tibetan Plateau. Consequently, the trans-Himalayan zone, in the lee of the high peaks, is dry. This is the so-called rain shadow effect. The barrier of the Himalaya results in startling contrasts. Precipitation in Nepal, for example, diminishes from 5,202 millimeters in Lumle, located on the southern side of Annapurna in central Nepal, to 174 millimeters on the north side of the same mountain. In Leh in Ladakh, which is located north of the main central thrust of the western Himalaya, annual precipitation is only 76 millimeters. In the eastern and central regions, it is possible to walk in only a few days from lush, wet forests to stark, cold, high deserts. Such transects make it clear that regional patterns of climate are often less important than local ones, which can vary in extreme ways over short distances.
It is from Illustrated Atlas of the Himalya by David Zurick & Julsun Pacheco With Basanta Shrestha & Birendra Bajracharya, University Press of Kentucky Lexington, 2006. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 00:21, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
As it moves westward, the monsoon also becomes drier” and “
The monsoon precipitation drops progressively as one proceeds west, with annual receipts in Darjeeling of 3,122 millimeters; Kathmandu, 1,688 millimeters; and Jammu, 1,096 millimeters”, both of which is to say that the monsoon diminishes in its intensity as it moves westward. Also note that Jammu, which lies on the windward side of the Pir Panjal, is used as an example, not Srinagar. UnpetitproleX ( talk) 03:49, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
As you will see from the book, what I was stating from memory is pretty much the case, including the vertical gradients of 2000 m = 6000 feet. I have to run now to buy some medicine for our last cat whose litter-mate of 16 years died recently. His gentle spirit for which she is mourning keeps me from speaking my mind about this shameful waste of my time. Utterly shameful. Utterly, utterly, shameful. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 00:27, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
Until you explain in lucid encyclopedic language why the Pir Panjal, which lies to the southwest of the Kashmir Valley acts as a barrier to the monsoon entering the valley, which is to say, why the monsoon winds blow from the southwest into the valley and not the southeast or east as they move progressively northwestward in the shadow of the Great Himalayas, this conversation will not proceed. I need a clear statement cited to a widely used textbook (per WP:SOURCETYPES and WP:TERTIARY such as the one I produced). This is a vital article, not something to which we can add some obscure details that without ancillary explanations strain the intuition. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 09:16, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
Similarly, the Pir Panjal range acts as a barrier to the monsoon winds reaching the Kashmir valley, resulting in the monsoon no longer being a dominant factor there, and the monsoon season accounts for less than one-third of Srinagar's total annual precipitation.[45]
I have read your explanation of Pir Panjal in the section somewhere above. Here is my sense of what is happening (i.e. my understanding and speculation):
The monsoon does decrease from the west to the east, but as I've explained before it is dependent both on longitude and elevation. The rain increases up to 2,000 m (6,000 ft) after which it decreases. If Dharmsala receives more SW monsoon rain than Darjeeling, then I bet, and I haven't checked, it is quite a bit lower than Darjeeling (nearly 7,000 ft), which I know from the FAR. So it is not a counter-example to the general proposition that the monsoon decreases in strength from east to west. That is because:
There is a general principle here. Central Asia has a low-pressure system in the summer. It pulls moisture-laden air from the Indian ocean below. This air current is the definition of the monsoon. The Indian summer monsoon splits into two branches—the first moves across the Western Ghats. The second does over the Bay of Bengal. This second branch encounters the Himalayas and is simultaneously lifted to release its moisture and deflected northwestwards. The segment that gets over the Himalayas has shed practically all its moisture and what is there is locked up as vapor, as the textbook says, and there is no rain in Tibet, the rain shadow.
The moisture is limited. The monsoon does not pick up any further moisture over India. Therefore the segment that is deflected northwestward has less moisture as it has already shed some.
It continues to press against the Himalayas, albeit at smaller angles of inclination. The component of the force that draws it over the mountains consequently is smaller (it being the cosine of the complementary angle; as the latter becomes progressively larger, its cosine progressively smaller).
Regardless, the monsoon soldiers on. When it reaches the Indian western Himalayas, i.e. the Kumaon Himalayas, say the Pithoragarh region, the mountain range itself begins to turn northwestward, i.e. WNW to NW. The component of the northern monsoon which rises (i.e. encounters the Himalayas head-on) is smaller. Again this is because less monsoon wind is being forced up and it has less moisture. The rain it creates will be less.
The Himalayas moreover spilt into several ranges in Kashmir, the Ladakh range, the Central Range, and the Lesser Himalayas on the west. Each one creates a rain shadow effect. Aksai Chin is in the rain shadow of the Ladakh range; Leh is in the rain shadow of the Central range, and ??? is in the rain shadow of the Lesser Himalayas, of which Pir Panjal is a part. Your edit suggested that it was all of the Kashmir Valley. That is the part I do not understand.
Speculating now: it can be if the monsoon winds are blowing from the southwest, encountering the range at right angles, which I asked above; or it can simply be if there is no gap between the Central Range and the Pir Panjal in the south, i.e. in this intermontane valley, and the monsoon keeps being deflected westward as it has been by the Ladakh and Central ranges, and indeed by all the earlier ranges of the Great Himalayas.
If the latter is the case, it needs to be stated with clarity and all three examples need to be given: the valley, Leh, and Aksai Chin. That is the way to do it. I will now check if there is a gap between the PP and the Central Himalayas in Kashmir. I will also check the Dharamsala bit. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:22, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
I've asked this twice above, both times to no reply, so I'm making this subsection specifically for this. Are you saying, and please state clearly without ambiguity, that the Pir Panjal is not responsible for the diminished monsoon in Kashmir valley? Is that your assertion? UnpetitproleX ( talk) 19:13, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
how can the southwest monsoon which moves across the himalayas from the southeast be stopped by the pir panjal?”
What moisture-laden monsoon winds blowing in the Himalayan latitudes from the southeast will be stopped by the Pir Panjal from reaching Srinagar? Srinagar lies to the northwest of the Pir Panjal.”
Until you explain . . . why the Pir Panjal, which lies to the southwest of the Kashmir Valley acts as a barrier to the monsoon entering the valley, . . . this conversation will not proceed” (full text in the “A note” subsection above). UnpetitproleX ( talk) 10:11, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
And finally, I am stating this here clearly that I will not be participating in their "you write your version I write mine" game, since I don't think we need to throw away the whole climate section amd begin from scratch, but only that it needs to be fixed. I will, however, be reinstating every edit that they have not individually objected to with statement of which WP policy such objection stems from. They have mass reverted several edits, but so far only objected to the Pir Panjal bit, the wording of the "east-west" gradient bit and the placement (not content) of the western disturbance bit. For these I will either open new talk page discussions or take to dispute resolution. UnpetitproleX ( talk) 10:24, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 10:37, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
In addition to Zurick and Pecheco's Illustrated Atlas of the Himalaya mentioned above, I have now examined a dozen other broad scale books on the Monsoon, Mountain Climate, and General Climate. Among them are the classics: Roger G. Barry and Richard Chorley's Atmosphere, Weather, and Climate, 9th edition, Routledge, 2010; Peter Clift and R. Alan Plumb's The Asian Monsoon: Causes, History and Effects, Cambridge, and Barry's Mountain Weather and Climate, Cambridge. None of these four books nor the ten others had any mention of Pir Panjal in the context of the summer monsoon.
Several however did mention Ladakh being in the rain shadow of the NW Great Himalayas, in addition to Tibet of the Central Himalayas (the whole range really). All this gave me pause. I then examined the journal articles (i.e. the specialist literature). Some journal articles published by Indian meteorologists (quite a few from Kashmir) did make that claim but without any real explanation. There was one article that did use " orographic effect" which is what I was looking for, but it was about flora and fauna (or some similar topic) and this fact was mentioned in the commonplace verities of the introduction. Barry and others have said several times that the gradient of the orographic rainfall depends not only on monsoon airflow and altitude but also on slope orientation.
I went back to Zurick and Pecheco's atlas and found the accompanying map of the SW monsoon rainfall in centimeters. It has equipotential lines, i.e. lines of equal display strength, in this instance summer rain. They run right through the bottom right of the valley, an intermontane valley between the Pir Panjal to the bottom left and the Great Himalayas to the top right. I then checked the altitude of the Pir Panjal range at the bottom right. It was in the range of 6500 ft = little above 2000 m where the orographic rainfall stops increasing but certainly does not die out. This explains why the lines run through. There is a more well-defined break and that is between the red and yellow lines between which I suspect the Great Himalayas run, ending at their western anchor the
Nanga Parbat. This is mentioned in the map caption above the map on page 52: "Precipitation (shown in centimeters) in the form of summer rain and winter snow has a pronounced seasonal and regional distribution, corresponding to the northward penetration of the summer monsoon and the rain shadow effect produced by the High Himalayas.
There are two maps there, one for the summer rain, the other for the winter snow. It doesn't mean that there are no pockets of decreased rain in the valley caused by the Pir Panjal, but because of a number of factors (a. the monsoon current is weak by then and unable to proceed up a mountain with the same force; b. the orientation of the PP in the west is roughly in the same direction as the SW monsoon airflow; c. the PPs are not that high in the south where they more transversally intersect the monsoon airflow, to have the optimum orographic effect needed for a rain shadow (as stated, they are approx 2500 m in the south, which is the point at which the orographic rainfall stops increasing but does not cease entirely) and finally d. because the PPs and the valley would need to be much better and more thickly instrumented (than the scattered measuring stations in the map on page 2 of the paper cited below) to record similar but more subtle claims of some rain-shadow-like effects in the Kashmir valley), a statement about PP in this article in the context of the summer monsoon in the Himalayas would be undue. This is my considered view at this point and this state of my knowledge. Had the valley been a rain shadow, the equipotential lines would not have run through so decisively into the lower Ladakh and upper Indian regions. I will continue to try to understand the problem and will keep writing a version of the climate section beginning after I am done with the Darjeeling FAR. Best, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 21:55, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
The Pir Panjal range prevents much of the summer rainfall associated with the southwest monsoon from reaching Kashmir. The mean annual precipitation at Srinagar, in Kashmir basin, is 659 mm, of which 24 per cent falls during summer. This compares with Jammu, to the south of the Pir Panjal, where 67 per cent of the mean annual precipitation (1116 mm) falls during the summer monsoon (July–September). Abundant meteorological data, mainly from basin-floor stations, show that annual precipitation in Kashmir ranges from 584 to 1229 mm, although there is no clear spatial pattern.” UnpetitproleX ( talk) 10:03, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
The mountain flanks are cooler and wetter than the basin floor, although few data are available to quantify the differences,” he’s talking about the spatial differences within (or inside) the Kashmir valley, not about orographic rainfall on the southern slopes of the Pir Panjal. He is not doubting the barrier effect of the Pir Panjal range, which he states almost as a fact. The Pir Panjal are simply too tall for significant infiltration of rain-carrying monsoon winds into the Kashmir valley. Some does still pierce through the small gaps in the south and monsoon brings enough rain for the monsoon season to be called “Vuhraat” (rainy season) in the Kashmiri language. Regardless, spring remains the wettest season in Kashmir, more than twice as wet as monsoon. UnpetitproleX ( talk) 05:11, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Abundant meteorological data, mainly from basin-floor stations, show that annual precipitation in Kashmir ranges from 584 to 1229 mm, although there is no clear spatial pattern. Temperature is measured at few sites. At Srinagar, mean monthly maximum ranges from 9.7 °C (January) to 35.5 °C (July); mean monthly minimum ranges from –6.7 °C (January) to 14.5 °C (July). The mountain flanks are cooler and wetter than the basin floor, although few data are available to quantify the differences.” He is most definitely talking about differences within (or inside) Kashmir valley. It is not my interpretation, it is what the source says. UnpetitproleX ( talk) 15:32, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Holmes on glaciation thresholds (GTs) in the NW Himalayas
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Modern glaciers were investigated using information from Survey of India 1:63,360 scale maps produced before independence in 1947. These maps depict relief, drainage and glacier cover with acceptable accuracy. Although all altitudes and distances on the maps are in imperial units, these have been converted to metric units for this study. GTs were determined for each 5′ east × 5′ north quadrangle using the method of Østrem (1961). The value for the GT was plotted at the quadrangle centre and isoglacihypses (lines of equal GT) were drawn. A height method was used to determine the ELA for each glacier, since the area of each glacier as depicted on the maps is quite generalized. Toe and headwall altitudes are shown clearly for many glaciers. Previous work on the glaciers of Kashmir has not provided sufficient detail for a value of the THAR to be calculated, so a value of 0.4 (Meierding, 1982) was employed. Mean values of ELAs for north�facing (N ± 30 °) glaciers in each 5′×5′ quadrangle were calculated and isoglacihypses of equal ELA drawn. Calculations of the GT yielded 40 data points. There is a clear distinction in the height of the GT between the Pir Panjal range and the Great Himalayan range. Broadly, the GT rises from 4100–4500 m in the Pir Panjal range to 4600– 4700 m in the Great Himalayan range. The GT was also determined for several quadrangles further to the east, beyond the Kashmir watershed, where it is generally higher than 4700 m (Figure 3.2). This general pattern is best explained by the existence of a precipitation gradient. There are two major sources of precipitation received in Kashmir: one from the south and southeast, associated with summer monsoon disturbances; the other from the west, associated with winter westerly depressions. In either case, the glacierized part of the Pir Panjal range would receive more precipitation than the Great Himalayan range. The aridity of Ladakh, for example, is well shown by the abrupt change in vegetation seen when crossing the watershed from Kashmir. The pattern of isoglacihypses also shows topographic control. The glacierized part of Kashmir runs broadly in a southwest�northeast direction and this follows the axis of high mountains. Thus, although other parts of Kashmir may have the climatic potential to support glaciers, the mountains are too low. Therefore, the apparent rise in GTs from southwest to northeast reflects control by both precipitation and topography. The gradient of the GTs is indicated by the spacing of the isoglacihypses. The gradient of the GT is consistently high on the Pir Panjal flank, ranging from 20 to 68 m km−1. On the Himalayan flank, the gradient varies from 5 to 68 m km−1. Whereas the lower values of the GT gradient are well within the range of figures quoted for other areas, the higher gradients exceed published values by a factor of two (e.g. Porter, 1977). It is possible that the values for Kashmir are incorrect, owing to errors in the topographic information on the maps. However, the highest gradients are, in most cases, constrained by several data points and are a feature of both mountain flanks, Therefore, some reason other than data error is required to explain the large GT gradient. The gradients quoted by Porter (1977) refer to mid- to high latitude, maritime mountain ranges. The highest gradient, ~25 m km−1, occurs in mid-latitude ranges, in areas of high precipitation. In these maritime regions, precipitation is high on the coast and declines inland, leading to a sharp GT gradient. Locally, precipitation often interacts with topography. For example, low GT gradients are frequently found in association with cols in maritime ranges which are oriented broadly perpendicular to the direction of airflow. This is because the cols allow greater inland penetration of moist, maritime air masses (e.g. Porter, 1977). The effect of this is to produce bulges in the isoglacihypses. On the Pir Panjal flank, the isoglacihypses follow the topography quite closely, although they show two quite pronounced bulges which are associated with two cols in the headwater regions of the Rembiara and Vishav valleys (Figure 3.2). These cols presumably allow greater penetration of moist air over the Pir Panjal crest. However, the steepness of the GT gradient indicates a marked decrease in precipitation north and northeastward, suggesting that the rainshadow effect of the Pir Panjal range must be very strong. The pattern of isoglacihypses on the Himalayan flank is more difficult to explain. The presence of pronounced bulges suggests that precipitation and topography may be controlling the GT, especially since the bulges coincide partially with the two major valleys that drain the Himalayan flank. The steepest GT gradient occurs close to the watershed with Ladakh. This is to be expected, since the watershed marks a very narrow zone of pronounced precipitation decline. In summary, the rainshadow effect of the Pir Panjal range and the location of the high altitude mountains appear to have produced a southwest-northeast rise in the GT, with local variations, including very high GT gradients in some areas. Although this may in part be a product of poor-quality data, topographic variations appear to produce local, steep, precipitation gradients which, in turn, affect the GT. |
I do not wish to keep going around in circles, and the need and pattern of your reverts can be discussed later, so here's a proposal:
I've made the above edits, and out of courtesy I'm also pinging you (though I surely don't need to) @ Fowler&fowler: about the images that I've added to the climate section. You can see them here on the right side, with the captions that I've added them with. Have dug the depths of commons for these images (because apparently people simply do not properly categorise pictures). Both are QIs, both taken roughly the same time of the year (Sep-Oct). I think the rainshadow effect of the great Himalayan range is beautifully conveyed through these, let me know if you think otherwise. UnpetitproleX ( talk) 09:02, 28 May 2022 (UTC)