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The current text reads: "The findings concluded that 164 witness statements had been altered. Of those statements, 116 were amended to remove or change negative comments about South Yorkshire Police."
This is somewhat misleading. It is clear from the full report that all draft witness statements made by police officers were read through by the force's solicitors who recommended a number of revisions to many of them. Far from there being some sort of conspiracy however the full report points to perfectly reasonable explanations for the textual changes (some very minor) - not least that professional witness statements quite properly required officers simply to describe what they had personally seen and done, and not gratuitously add in what they felt, or what they thought about Liverpool fans or about their own senior managers. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassandrathesceptic ( talk • contribs) 10:48, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
I certainly don't want to push a personal POV. Quite the contrary. I simply make the observation that when one compares the above mentioned report summary with the media reporting of same that the media appears to have inflated the significance of the amendments to the original police statements. So I would have thought it better (NPOV) to quote the report rather than newspaper reports of the report. Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassandrathesceptic ( talk • contribs) 09:50, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
The first paragraph was recently reworked and, while it introduced some content that I think is critical, it has what I think are some shortcomings. Below is a proposal. References are omitted as they don't work well on talk pages.
This incorporates content from the new first para and the old one. I think the older (before 10 May) paragraph focused more on the events of 15 April 1989 while the new one was primarily about the events that followed. The story of the disaster demands both, but in my evaluation the first para has to present what happened on the day. There is much else it has to present.
I admit the version above (and this talk page comment) is long. The comment is longer than the paragraph. I think the first paragraph should include everything you would want somebody to know if they will read that paragraph and nothing else -- ever. So I considered these things:
I decided to post the proposal here so others can comment. I hope we can come to a consensus that communicates all the absolutely critical points about Hillborough in one paragraph.
All editors are invited to make changes to the text below. I've used the citation needed flag{{cn}} as a placeholder for where refs would be placed; feel free to the same, and if you add a reference comment it out so it doesn't cause problems with the discussion page.
The Hillsborough disaster was a human crush that caused the deaths of 96 people and injured 766 others at a football match between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest at Hillsborough Stadium, Sheffield, England, on 15 April 1989. The match was the 1988–89 FA Cup semi-final, with Hillsborough, home ground of Sheffield Wednesday Football Club (SWFC), selected as a neutral venue. The fatal crush occurred in the minutes before and after the 2:58 pm kick-off time, in the Leppings Lane terrace at the western end of the pitch, a standing area allocated to Liverpool supporters.
Entry was possible via a limited number of turnstiles, a restriction that led to dangerous overcrowding outside the ground before kick-off. Neither the police nor SWFC postponed kickoff to ensure the safe passage of supporters into the ground; instead, at 2:52 pm, a gate was opened on the orders of senior police officers, admitting about 2,000 people. Most headed through a prominently signed tunnel leading to the standing areas behind the goal, known as Pen 3 and Pen 4. The influx of people created lethal conditions towards the front of the crowd and, shortly thereafter, a safety barrier collapsed. Steel perimeter fencing, intended to prevent pitch invasions, prevented escape onto the pitch, while lateral fencing, intended to keep too many supporters from congregating behind the goal, trapped people in Pens 3 and 4.
The 1989–90 official inquiry headed by Lord Taylor concluded that "the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control" by South Yorkshire Police (SYP). Lord Taylor's recommendations resulted in the removal of steel perimeter fences and the abolition of standing-room terraces at top-level British football stadiums. A separate coroner's inquest by Stephan Popper ruled that the 96 victims had died of traumatic asphyxia before 3:15 pm, and the jury returned a verdict of accidental death. Relatives of the victims welcomed the Taylor Report but were opposed to the coroner's ruling. They were outraged by the revelation that police witness statements had been altered, and they were vehemently opposed to media coverage, largely based on falsehoods, that was critical of Liverpool supporters' behaviour.
For years, survivors and bereaved demanded a new investigation, until, in 2009, the Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) was formed. HIP delivered its report in 2012; consequently, the verdict of accidental death was quashed. A new coroner's inquest was established. In April 2016 the jury, satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that the 96 deaths were the result of a criminal offence, returned a verdict of unlawful killing.
Please leave any comments after this line. Original version:
Roches (
talk) 23:15, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
@
CarryOnCharlie,
Anthony Appleyard, and
ThePowerofX: Although the above is very long, the three of you have edited the article recently and so you may be interested. This is just a request for collaboration, no changes were made to the article.
Roches (
talk)
02:03, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
Here is another amendment I wish to see made: "Instead of delaying the start of the game to ensure the safe passage of supporters into the ground, at 2:52 pm, a gate was opened on the orders of senior police officers, admitting about 2,000 people." It is important to summarise the main errors as briefly as possible, including the failure to close the gate. — TPX 22:14, 14 May 2016 (UTC) @ ThePowerofX:
The lead already suffers from extreme bloat due to the influx of edits since the end of the last inquiry and this proposal only adds to the problem. In particular it has become a dumping ground for what each editor feels was the central cause of the disaster. These problems are too complicated to be addressed within the lead. There are also a number of causes that remain omitted such as the failure to close the central tunnel. Perhaps the bigger problem is that it means that the only direct cause is lost in the middle of the paragraph. It would suggest that the whole section from "The fatal crush occurred..." to "...pens 3 and 4." Should be replaced with a paraphrasing of what the jury agreed were the basic facts of the disaster
...[The disaster was] due to crushing in the central pens of the Leppings Lane terrace, following the admission of a large number of supporters to the stadium through exit gates.
In addition, the paragraph contains peripheral details such as the fact that it was held at a neutral venue. The final sentence does not need to explain the intricacies of English law and can be shortened to "The jury found that the 96 deaths were the verdict of Unlawful Killing". Also the discussion of subsequent inquests represents a change in subject so therefore be given their own paragraph. Eckerslike ( talk) 07:30, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
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I only came to this article for the first time yesterday, and don't want to 'step on anyone's toes', however I am suggesting putting all inquests, official enquiries, legal reviews into chronological order (after the present description of the events and victims sections). At present the two inquests are tucked into 'Charges against officials', at the tail of the article, which appears to me to be incorrect factually and in terms of importance. I also propose to rename "Charges against officials" to "Criminal and civil cases". I also noticed that there is no section or text about the role of West Midlands Police, which is fairly important for understanding the whole legal story. Thoughts? Pincrete ( talk) 16:06, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
I've also copied ALL the Taylor report section to Taylor Report, as a prelude to 'paring' down the section on this article to its essentials. Pincrete ( talk) 17:46, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
I notice that each coroner's 'inquest', was actually technically 'inquests' (ie covering each of many deaths), sources seem to alternate between singular and plural and IMO it would be confusing to refer to each in plural. Pincrete ( talk) 21:54, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
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I wish to edit the site so that I can include the latest charges brought by the CPS. 109.148.252.196 ( talk) 10:19, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
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Please change:
"Of those who died, 78 were aged 30 or younger. 38 of the victims were children or teenagers, and all but three of them were aged under 50.[71]"
To: "Of those who died, 78 were aged 30 or younger. 38 of the victims were children or teenagers, and all but three of the victims were aged under 50.[71]"
Or some such.
-- 2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:BE ( talk) 14:32, 5 July 2017 (UTC) 2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:BE ( talk) 14:32, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
In editing a section of the article under the 'Crush' subheading, I noticed a point of confusion re: SYMAS's response (South Yorkshire Metropolitan Ambulance Service). It states that police kept ambulances from "entering the stadium" (the pitch) but according to TROFHIP's findings the area behind the gymnasium was an already-agreed-upon loading point for SYMAS. [1] How it's worded now, it implies that ambulances ought to have been brought onto the pitch -- and yet that was never meant to be part of the disaster protocol (e.g., ambulances inside the stadium as opposed to parked outside the gymnasium).
References
2.4.124: "There are sound operational reasons for avoiding taking vehicles into confined areas where they may easily become blocked in, causing significant disruption to the evacuation of casualties." 2.4.125: "The previously mentioned objectives were not achieved because of the failure to implement the major incident procedure and not because more ambulances were not brought onto the pitch."
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User:Limhey, [1] why do you prefer to describe doctors as "medically qualified fans" (St John's Ambulance men?), why do you prefer to remove the information that they were actually INSIDE the stadium on the day? Why do you remove a ref which links to detailed testimony both gave in 2016 and which is quite forensic in its criticism of the emergency response? Most importantly of all, why is it better to put their testimony in a section about an inquiry which they did not attend and with text which refers to a second inquest which the reader has not even yet been informed of?
The whole Hillsborough story, including that of these two men, is a story of evidence coming fully to light, or acquiring further ramifications, or being fully endorsed, many years after the event. If we 'fast-forward' every time an event has repercussions further down the line, the chronology (which is already fiendishly complicated), will be completely lost. I cannot see any advantage except to discredit Popper at the first opportunity, as opposed to advancing the whole narrative in sequence, which - at the very least - has the effect of questioning how thorough/neutral Popper was.
BTW Phillips, does not quite say "the exclusion of their evidence demonstrated that the original inquest was 'coloured and flawed' from the outset", what he actually says is "I cannot fathom why he didn’t call us, other than he specifically did not want to hear our evidence, in which case the first inquests were coloured and flawed before they even started.” ie IF he just didn't want to hear the evidence - the inquest was flawed from the start. Also the coroner's letter does not say that the doctor's were 'specifically excluded', it says Popper did not intend to call them. It's bad enough that Popper failed to call two highly knowledgable key witnesses, we don't have to 'beef it up'. Pincrete ( talk) 21:52, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
The term 'medically qualified' is entirely appropriate as it means medical practitioners registered with the GMC. 'Doctors' is a more generic term and could describe someone with a PhD, or these days a dentist. Being a St Johns ambulance man does not describe being a medical practitioner - far from it; unless of course he/she was additionally registered with the GMC. Ironic that you mention St Johns ambulance men. If you read all the documents they show that Taylor rejected Phillips's claim about an empty oxygen cylinder on the basis of the statement and testimony of Peter Wells, the StJ divisional officer. At Warrington, Phillips, with video evidence (not presented at the Taylor inquiry), successfully refuted Wells's false claims. Additionally he stated that he disagreed with almost everything Wells had stated including his untrue claim that he had assisted Phillips.
Pincrete I do think we can state the Taylor was wrong regarding his ruling against their criticism of the emergency services. They were the only two 'qualified doctors' to go publicly on the record immediately after the event criticising the emergency services response. Taylor exonerated the services. The outcome of the HIP report and the Warrington inquests - authoritative sources, the latter carrying superseding legal precedence over Taylor's ruling - demonstrated clearly that his judgment on that matter had been wrong and their views were in the main vindicated. I think any version of Phillips's quote should include the clear implications that he felt Popper's decision was a 'serious error of judgement' and the inquests were 'coloured and flawed'.
Which details do you disagree with? What is not neutral? ( Limhey ( talk) 20:07, 8 May 2018 (UTC))
Pincrete I too do not wish to enter an edit war; however I disagree with your removal of the fact that both Drs Ashton and Phillips were Liverpool fans. I feel you demonstrate that you have possibly not yet grasped the enormity of the antipathy of the various Sheffield authorities towards Liverpool fans in the aftermath. If so you are missing the very important 'us and them' mood of the time and for many years that followed. It is likely that their being from Merseyside contributed to their exclusion but we cannot prove it. In the news at the time and after the verdicts, in papers, TV, and radio, emphasis was placed on them being Liverpool fans. As a compromise I shall add that they were 'Merseyside doctors' as in the cited article.( Limhey ( talk) 23:20, 8 May 2018 (UTC))
Taylor made no mention of them being 'too emotionally involved'. Taylor was subsequently proven wrong about his criticism and dismissal of Ashton's opinions. In the cited Liverpool Echo 'vindication' article we read how damaging that criticism was to him personally and his career in public health. Taylor disagreed with Phillips on the matter of defibrillators. This was a matter of opinion rather than fact. The immediate growth in availability and use of such equipment in public places tends to suggest that Taylor was wrong. In an organised speedy response they may have been useful. In fact some were used unsuccessfully (other than as 'paddle checks') by ambulance crews outside the stadium. Taylor perversely rules that they would have been dangerous in the 'chaos' of the response but then excuses that chaos in his emergency service no fault ruling. On the subject of Phillips's claim that he was provided with an empty oxygen cylinder, Taylor ruled against him entirely upon the statements and testimony (later totally disproved at Warrington) of St J Amb Div. Officer Wells; he also remarked that Phillips 'may have been mistaken as to the cylinder of which he complains being empty. He agreed he was under great pressure, in an awkward situation; his head was injured and he became very angry at what he regarded then as wholly the fault of the police'. For 'may' read 'may not'.
Thanks for your continuing interest in and contributions to this important topic ( Limhey ( talk) 13:30, 9 May 2018 (UTC))
It is astonishing even now that Popper only called ONE of the many Drs present that day to his resumed inquests - the SWFC club doctor. [2]
There were many more Drs present including a Professor of Surgery, Tim Cooke (another Liverpool fan) [3] who also made criticisms of the response in their statements to Taylor. Why would a medically qualified coroner not want to hear all of the medical witness testimony available? What possible motive would he have for excluding such important and valid evidence? Ashton and Phillips were not mavericks - they concurred with the majority view of their profession. His witness list is a disgrace. Part of the cover up? Little (no) doubt here. ( Limhey ( talk) 22:54, 9 May 2018 (UTC))
Popper was aware in June 1989 that Dr Ashton had phoned his office requesting to be called to the inquests. [4] ( Limhey ( talk) 10:08, 11 May 2018 (UTC))
References
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Under Prosecutions add in information from 29/6/2018 about a judge lifting the historical stay on further prosecutions. The result of this is that David Duckenfield - the Hillsborough Match Commander at the disaster - is to face troel for the manslaughter by gross negligence of 95 Liverpool supporters.
Reference: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hillsborough-police-manslaughter-charges-david-duckenfield-liverpool-fans-death-preston-court-a8422666.html Adampr89 ( talk) 15:31, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Shouldn't a link to this BBC Reunion programme from 2009 be included (I suggest changing the current televison and theatre section to "radio, television and theatre"):
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jlxjp — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.236.40.77 ( talk) 04:39, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
It can be found near Brown was about to become a father. ( 78.17.100.83 ( talk) 19:33, 29 November 2019 (UTC))
Requests for change, since the article is protected: First, I think the last sentence of the introduction (about 6 people being charged in June 2017) should be cut or replaced. Since all the prosecutions have now been resolved, the article should reflect this. Second, the "sub judice" tag on the talk page should be removed, since the court cases have now been resolved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.183.163.6 ( talk) 18:12, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
The diagram image of the area of the incident in citation 30 is both an incorrect rendering of the scene and not actually a proper citation of the source. The source cited is not an image, but a video. Upon further examination, said video does not contain the cited image. Rather, the image included in this article is a poor rendering of the diagram seen at 3:03 in the video. Furthermore, the diagram seen in the video is intended to show the flow of foot traffic. It is clearly not intended to be a fully accurate rendering of the scene of the incident. As such, the reproduced image show in this article is misrepresenting itself as an accurate diagram of the scene. This may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but the accurate rendering of the scene is crucial in this instance; a reader cannot properly understand the dynamics of a large human crush without a clear diagram of the scene.
The main reason this is such an important issue is that the Hillsborough Disaster was subject to cover ups and public misinformation in the decades following it. The image in this article would lead a reader to believe that one could not walk directly from "turnstiles A-G" to "Pens 1&2" when there is in fact a clear path. As seen at 5:16 in this video, which is video evidence of the scene provided to inquest jurors. At that time mark, you can clearly see a path along the Gate C wall leading to Pens 1 & 2.
I recommend removing this image in favor of a better rendering. Alternatively, the creator could update the image to accurately reflect the scene. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:146:300:9A30:9009:FB27:8BB3:3E7 ( talk) 04:43, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I disagree that the article is either too long, or difficult to navigate. Yes, it is long, but that is the nature of these things. It is not hard to navigate, as the TOC allows for easy navigation. The editor who placed the template did not bother to set out their reasons for adding it. I propose that it is removed. Mjroots ( talk) 05:05, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
Mjroots, regarding this addition, I cannot find anywhere any reference to documents not being destroyed being part of the judges logic for acquittal. Gdn and BBC simply state that because the inquiry wasn't a court of law, there could not possibly be any perversion of justice - implying therefore that ANY misrepresentation of evidence, regardless of how intentional it had been, would not have been an offence. I attempted to read the judgement as well, which contains defences of 'misrepresentations' by solicitors and others, but I could not find it explicitly said that the survival of the original documents was part of the judge's logic for acquittal. I don't doubt that if the three, or anyone, HAD physically destroyed evidence, the accusation MIGHT have been different - but I simply don't see where it is part of the judge's reason for acquittal in THIS instance - which is strongly implied by "The original statements had not been destroyed. Consequently a course of public justice could not have been perverted". Pincrete ( talk) 17:09, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
The references to altered police statements manage to imply something sinister in this fact. The investigations however revealed the reasons for all the changes made to the draft police witness statements. The originals were littered with bad language and personal opinion rather than being professionally-worded direct accounts of what officers had personally done and what they had personally seen. It was these surprisingly-amateurish first attempts at writing witness statements which seems to have led to 'editing' being advised. The fact that so many officers didn't know how to write a proper witness statement is of course in itself quite damning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.38.110 ( talk) 14:02, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I see that the article talks about the 10th and 20th anniversary, but has anything happened on the 30th anniversary (2019)?
Here are some sources that talk about it: The Guardian - https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/apr/15/liverpool-remembers-hillsborough-victims-on-30th-anniversary-of-disaster CNN - https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/15/sport/hillsborough-liverpool-stadium-30th-anniversary-gbr-spt-intl/index.html BBC - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-47933911 (and https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-47912890) Liverpool FC - https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/announcements/345294-lfc-to-mark-30th-anniversary-of-hillsborough
And goes on...
So, is there going to be a mention of this in the article? RandomEditorAAA ( talk) 02:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Talk:Hillsborough disaster and The Sun § Information flow. —
Bilorv (
talk)
20:03, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
I think Steven Cohen (soccer) should be merged into this article on the grounds of WP:BLP1E. There is very little verifiable information about the subject and any sources that indicate any level of notability are dedicated to his comments concerning this single event. TipsyElephant ( talk) 18:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't even think it's worth merging, unless we're going to include every vaguely prominent figure to have made stupid comments about the disaster. Would favour deletion of the Cohen article rather than merging. -- OGBC1992 ( talk) 13:54, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Oppose: I think the same as OGBC1992 to be honest. It'd clutter the article to non end, and he isn't worth mentioning in this article. -- MattBinYYC ( talk) 20:42, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
Oppose: Agreed, nothing worth merging. Pincrete ( talk) 07:27, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
The current text reads: "The findings concluded that 164 witness statements had been altered. Of those statements, 116 were amended to remove or change negative comments about South Yorkshire Police."
This is somewhat misleading. It is clear from the full report that all draft witness statements made by police officers were read through by the force's solicitors who recommended a number of revisions to many of them. Far from there being some sort of conspiracy however the full report points to perfectly reasonable explanations for the textual changes (some very minor) - not least that professional witness statements quite properly required officers simply to describe what they had personally seen and done, and not gratuitously add in what they felt, or what they thought about Liverpool fans or about their own senior managers. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassandrathesceptic ( talk • contribs) 10:48, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
I certainly don't want to push a personal POV. Quite the contrary. I simply make the observation that when one compares the above mentioned report summary with the media reporting of same that the media appears to have inflated the significance of the amendments to the original police statements. So I would have thought it better (NPOV) to quote the report rather than newspaper reports of the report. Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassandrathesceptic ( talk • contribs) 09:50, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
The first paragraph was recently reworked and, while it introduced some content that I think is critical, it has what I think are some shortcomings. Below is a proposal. References are omitted as they don't work well on talk pages.
This incorporates content from the new first para and the old one. I think the older (before 10 May) paragraph focused more on the events of 15 April 1989 while the new one was primarily about the events that followed. The story of the disaster demands both, but in my evaluation the first para has to present what happened on the day. There is much else it has to present.
I admit the version above (and this talk page comment) is long. The comment is longer than the paragraph. I think the first paragraph should include everything you would want somebody to know if they will read that paragraph and nothing else -- ever. So I considered these things:
I decided to post the proposal here so others can comment. I hope we can come to a consensus that communicates all the absolutely critical points about Hillborough in one paragraph.
All editors are invited to make changes to the text below. I've used the citation needed flag{{cn}} as a placeholder for where refs would be placed; feel free to the same, and if you add a reference comment it out so it doesn't cause problems with the discussion page.
The Hillsborough disaster was a human crush that caused the deaths of 96 people and injured 766 others at a football match between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest at Hillsborough Stadium, Sheffield, England, on 15 April 1989. The match was the 1988–89 FA Cup semi-final, with Hillsborough, home ground of Sheffield Wednesday Football Club (SWFC), selected as a neutral venue. The fatal crush occurred in the minutes before and after the 2:58 pm kick-off time, in the Leppings Lane terrace at the western end of the pitch, a standing area allocated to Liverpool supporters.
Entry was possible via a limited number of turnstiles, a restriction that led to dangerous overcrowding outside the ground before kick-off. Neither the police nor SWFC postponed kickoff to ensure the safe passage of supporters into the ground; instead, at 2:52 pm, a gate was opened on the orders of senior police officers, admitting about 2,000 people. Most headed through a prominently signed tunnel leading to the standing areas behind the goal, known as Pen 3 and Pen 4. The influx of people created lethal conditions towards the front of the crowd and, shortly thereafter, a safety barrier collapsed. Steel perimeter fencing, intended to prevent pitch invasions, prevented escape onto the pitch, while lateral fencing, intended to keep too many supporters from congregating behind the goal, trapped people in Pens 3 and 4.
The 1989–90 official inquiry headed by Lord Taylor concluded that "the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control" by South Yorkshire Police (SYP). Lord Taylor's recommendations resulted in the removal of steel perimeter fences and the abolition of standing-room terraces at top-level British football stadiums. A separate coroner's inquest by Stephan Popper ruled that the 96 victims had died of traumatic asphyxia before 3:15 pm, and the jury returned a verdict of accidental death. Relatives of the victims welcomed the Taylor Report but were opposed to the coroner's ruling. They were outraged by the revelation that police witness statements had been altered, and they were vehemently opposed to media coverage, largely based on falsehoods, that was critical of Liverpool supporters' behaviour.
For years, survivors and bereaved demanded a new investigation, until, in 2009, the Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) was formed. HIP delivered its report in 2012; consequently, the verdict of accidental death was quashed. A new coroner's inquest was established. In April 2016 the jury, satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that the 96 deaths were the result of a criminal offence, returned a verdict of unlawful killing.
Please leave any comments after this line. Original version:
Roches (
talk) 23:15, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
@
CarryOnCharlie,
Anthony Appleyard, and
ThePowerofX: Although the above is very long, the three of you have edited the article recently and so you may be interested. This is just a request for collaboration, no changes were made to the article.
Roches (
talk)
02:03, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
Here is another amendment I wish to see made: "Instead of delaying the start of the game to ensure the safe passage of supporters into the ground, at 2:52 pm, a gate was opened on the orders of senior police officers, admitting about 2,000 people." It is important to summarise the main errors as briefly as possible, including the failure to close the gate. — TPX 22:14, 14 May 2016 (UTC) @ ThePowerofX:
The lead already suffers from extreme bloat due to the influx of edits since the end of the last inquiry and this proposal only adds to the problem. In particular it has become a dumping ground for what each editor feels was the central cause of the disaster. These problems are too complicated to be addressed within the lead. There are also a number of causes that remain omitted such as the failure to close the central tunnel. Perhaps the bigger problem is that it means that the only direct cause is lost in the middle of the paragraph. It would suggest that the whole section from "The fatal crush occurred..." to "...pens 3 and 4." Should be replaced with a paraphrasing of what the jury agreed were the basic facts of the disaster
...[The disaster was] due to crushing in the central pens of the Leppings Lane terrace, following the admission of a large number of supporters to the stadium through exit gates.
In addition, the paragraph contains peripheral details such as the fact that it was held at a neutral venue. The final sentence does not need to explain the intricacies of English law and can be shortened to "The jury found that the 96 deaths were the verdict of Unlawful Killing". Also the discussion of subsequent inquests represents a change in subject so therefore be given their own paragraph. Eckerslike ( talk) 07:30, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 12:19, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
I only came to this article for the first time yesterday, and don't want to 'step on anyone's toes', however I am suggesting putting all inquests, official enquiries, legal reviews into chronological order (after the present description of the events and victims sections). At present the two inquests are tucked into 'Charges against officials', at the tail of the article, which appears to me to be incorrect factually and in terms of importance. I also propose to rename "Charges against officials" to "Criminal and civil cases". I also noticed that there is no section or text about the role of West Midlands Police, which is fairly important for understanding the whole legal story. Thoughts? Pincrete ( talk) 16:06, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
I've also copied ALL the Taylor report section to Taylor Report, as a prelude to 'paring' down the section on this article to its essentials. Pincrete ( talk) 17:46, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
I notice that each coroner's 'inquest', was actually technically 'inquests' (ie covering each of many deaths), sources seem to alternate between singular and plural and IMO it would be confusing to refer to each in plural. Pincrete ( talk) 21:54, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
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I wish to edit the site so that I can include the latest charges brought by the CPS. 109.148.252.196 ( talk) 10:19, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
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Please change:
"Of those who died, 78 were aged 30 or younger. 38 of the victims were children or teenagers, and all but three of them were aged under 50.[71]"
To: "Of those who died, 78 were aged 30 or younger. 38 of the victims were children or teenagers, and all but three of the victims were aged under 50.[71]"
Or some such.
-- 2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:BE ( talk) 14:32, 5 July 2017 (UTC) 2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:BE ( talk) 14:32, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
In editing a section of the article under the 'Crush' subheading, I noticed a point of confusion re: SYMAS's response (South Yorkshire Metropolitan Ambulance Service). It states that police kept ambulances from "entering the stadium" (the pitch) but according to TROFHIP's findings the area behind the gymnasium was an already-agreed-upon loading point for SYMAS. [1] How it's worded now, it implies that ambulances ought to have been brought onto the pitch -- and yet that was never meant to be part of the disaster protocol (e.g., ambulances inside the stadium as opposed to parked outside the gymnasium).
References
2.4.124: "There are sound operational reasons for avoiding taking vehicles into confined areas where they may easily become blocked in, causing significant disruption to the evacuation of casualties." 2.4.125: "The previously mentioned objectives were not achieved because of the failure to implement the major incident procedure and not because more ambulances were not brought onto the pitch."
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User:Limhey, [1] why do you prefer to describe doctors as "medically qualified fans" (St John's Ambulance men?), why do you prefer to remove the information that they were actually INSIDE the stadium on the day? Why do you remove a ref which links to detailed testimony both gave in 2016 and which is quite forensic in its criticism of the emergency response? Most importantly of all, why is it better to put their testimony in a section about an inquiry which they did not attend and with text which refers to a second inquest which the reader has not even yet been informed of?
The whole Hillsborough story, including that of these two men, is a story of evidence coming fully to light, or acquiring further ramifications, or being fully endorsed, many years after the event. If we 'fast-forward' every time an event has repercussions further down the line, the chronology (which is already fiendishly complicated), will be completely lost. I cannot see any advantage except to discredit Popper at the first opportunity, as opposed to advancing the whole narrative in sequence, which - at the very least - has the effect of questioning how thorough/neutral Popper was.
BTW Phillips, does not quite say "the exclusion of their evidence demonstrated that the original inquest was 'coloured and flawed' from the outset", what he actually says is "I cannot fathom why he didn’t call us, other than he specifically did not want to hear our evidence, in which case the first inquests were coloured and flawed before they even started.” ie IF he just didn't want to hear the evidence - the inquest was flawed from the start. Also the coroner's letter does not say that the doctor's were 'specifically excluded', it says Popper did not intend to call them. It's bad enough that Popper failed to call two highly knowledgable key witnesses, we don't have to 'beef it up'. Pincrete ( talk) 21:52, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
The term 'medically qualified' is entirely appropriate as it means medical practitioners registered with the GMC. 'Doctors' is a more generic term and could describe someone with a PhD, or these days a dentist. Being a St Johns ambulance man does not describe being a medical practitioner - far from it; unless of course he/she was additionally registered with the GMC. Ironic that you mention St Johns ambulance men. If you read all the documents they show that Taylor rejected Phillips's claim about an empty oxygen cylinder on the basis of the statement and testimony of Peter Wells, the StJ divisional officer. At Warrington, Phillips, with video evidence (not presented at the Taylor inquiry), successfully refuted Wells's false claims. Additionally he stated that he disagreed with almost everything Wells had stated including his untrue claim that he had assisted Phillips.
Pincrete I do think we can state the Taylor was wrong regarding his ruling against their criticism of the emergency services. They were the only two 'qualified doctors' to go publicly on the record immediately after the event criticising the emergency services response. Taylor exonerated the services. The outcome of the HIP report and the Warrington inquests - authoritative sources, the latter carrying superseding legal precedence over Taylor's ruling - demonstrated clearly that his judgment on that matter had been wrong and their views were in the main vindicated. I think any version of Phillips's quote should include the clear implications that he felt Popper's decision was a 'serious error of judgement' and the inquests were 'coloured and flawed'.
Which details do you disagree with? What is not neutral? ( Limhey ( talk) 20:07, 8 May 2018 (UTC))
Pincrete I too do not wish to enter an edit war; however I disagree with your removal of the fact that both Drs Ashton and Phillips were Liverpool fans. I feel you demonstrate that you have possibly not yet grasped the enormity of the antipathy of the various Sheffield authorities towards Liverpool fans in the aftermath. If so you are missing the very important 'us and them' mood of the time and for many years that followed. It is likely that their being from Merseyside contributed to their exclusion but we cannot prove it. In the news at the time and after the verdicts, in papers, TV, and radio, emphasis was placed on them being Liverpool fans. As a compromise I shall add that they were 'Merseyside doctors' as in the cited article.( Limhey ( talk) 23:20, 8 May 2018 (UTC))
Taylor made no mention of them being 'too emotionally involved'. Taylor was subsequently proven wrong about his criticism and dismissal of Ashton's opinions. In the cited Liverpool Echo 'vindication' article we read how damaging that criticism was to him personally and his career in public health. Taylor disagreed with Phillips on the matter of defibrillators. This was a matter of opinion rather than fact. The immediate growth in availability and use of such equipment in public places tends to suggest that Taylor was wrong. In an organised speedy response they may have been useful. In fact some were used unsuccessfully (other than as 'paddle checks') by ambulance crews outside the stadium. Taylor perversely rules that they would have been dangerous in the 'chaos' of the response but then excuses that chaos in his emergency service no fault ruling. On the subject of Phillips's claim that he was provided with an empty oxygen cylinder, Taylor ruled against him entirely upon the statements and testimony (later totally disproved at Warrington) of St J Amb Div. Officer Wells; he also remarked that Phillips 'may have been mistaken as to the cylinder of which he complains being empty. He agreed he was under great pressure, in an awkward situation; his head was injured and he became very angry at what he regarded then as wholly the fault of the police'. For 'may' read 'may not'.
Thanks for your continuing interest in and contributions to this important topic ( Limhey ( talk) 13:30, 9 May 2018 (UTC))
It is astonishing even now that Popper only called ONE of the many Drs present that day to his resumed inquests - the SWFC club doctor. [2]
There were many more Drs present including a Professor of Surgery, Tim Cooke (another Liverpool fan) [3] who also made criticisms of the response in their statements to Taylor. Why would a medically qualified coroner not want to hear all of the medical witness testimony available? What possible motive would he have for excluding such important and valid evidence? Ashton and Phillips were not mavericks - they concurred with the majority view of their profession. His witness list is a disgrace. Part of the cover up? Little (no) doubt here. ( Limhey ( talk) 22:54, 9 May 2018 (UTC))
Popper was aware in June 1989 that Dr Ashton had phoned his office requesting to be called to the inquests. [4] ( Limhey ( talk) 10:08, 11 May 2018 (UTC))
References
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Under Prosecutions add in information from 29/6/2018 about a judge lifting the historical stay on further prosecutions. The result of this is that David Duckenfield - the Hillsborough Match Commander at the disaster - is to face troel for the manslaughter by gross negligence of 95 Liverpool supporters.
Reference: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hillsborough-police-manslaughter-charges-david-duckenfield-liverpool-fans-death-preston-court-a8422666.html Adampr89 ( talk) 15:31, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Shouldn't a link to this BBC Reunion programme from 2009 be included (I suggest changing the current televison and theatre section to "radio, television and theatre"):
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jlxjp — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.236.40.77 ( talk) 04:39, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
It can be found near Brown was about to become a father. ( 78.17.100.83 ( talk) 19:33, 29 November 2019 (UTC))
Requests for change, since the article is protected: First, I think the last sentence of the introduction (about 6 people being charged in June 2017) should be cut or replaced. Since all the prosecutions have now been resolved, the article should reflect this. Second, the "sub judice" tag on the talk page should be removed, since the court cases have now been resolved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.183.163.6 ( talk) 18:12, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
The diagram image of the area of the incident in citation 30 is both an incorrect rendering of the scene and not actually a proper citation of the source. The source cited is not an image, but a video. Upon further examination, said video does not contain the cited image. Rather, the image included in this article is a poor rendering of the diagram seen at 3:03 in the video. Furthermore, the diagram seen in the video is intended to show the flow of foot traffic. It is clearly not intended to be a fully accurate rendering of the scene of the incident. As such, the reproduced image show in this article is misrepresenting itself as an accurate diagram of the scene. This may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but the accurate rendering of the scene is crucial in this instance; a reader cannot properly understand the dynamics of a large human crush without a clear diagram of the scene.
The main reason this is such an important issue is that the Hillsborough Disaster was subject to cover ups and public misinformation in the decades following it. The image in this article would lead a reader to believe that one could not walk directly from "turnstiles A-G" to "Pens 1&2" when there is in fact a clear path. As seen at 5:16 in this video, which is video evidence of the scene provided to inquest jurors. At that time mark, you can clearly see a path along the Gate C wall leading to Pens 1 & 2.
I recommend removing this image in favor of a better rendering. Alternatively, the creator could update the image to accurately reflect the scene. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:146:300:9A30:9009:FB27:8BB3:3E7 ( talk) 04:43, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I disagree that the article is either too long, or difficult to navigate. Yes, it is long, but that is the nature of these things. It is not hard to navigate, as the TOC allows for easy navigation. The editor who placed the template did not bother to set out their reasons for adding it. I propose that it is removed. Mjroots ( talk) 05:05, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
Mjroots, regarding this addition, I cannot find anywhere any reference to documents not being destroyed being part of the judges logic for acquittal. Gdn and BBC simply state that because the inquiry wasn't a court of law, there could not possibly be any perversion of justice - implying therefore that ANY misrepresentation of evidence, regardless of how intentional it had been, would not have been an offence. I attempted to read the judgement as well, which contains defences of 'misrepresentations' by solicitors and others, but I could not find it explicitly said that the survival of the original documents was part of the judge's logic for acquittal. I don't doubt that if the three, or anyone, HAD physically destroyed evidence, the accusation MIGHT have been different - but I simply don't see where it is part of the judge's reason for acquittal in THIS instance - which is strongly implied by "The original statements had not been destroyed. Consequently a course of public justice could not have been perverted". Pincrete ( talk) 17:09, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
The references to altered police statements manage to imply something sinister in this fact. The investigations however revealed the reasons for all the changes made to the draft police witness statements. The originals were littered with bad language and personal opinion rather than being professionally-worded direct accounts of what officers had personally done and what they had personally seen. It was these surprisingly-amateurish first attempts at writing witness statements which seems to have led to 'editing' being advised. The fact that so many officers didn't know how to write a proper witness statement is of course in itself quite damning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.38.110 ( talk) 14:02, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I see that the article talks about the 10th and 20th anniversary, but has anything happened on the 30th anniversary (2019)?
Here are some sources that talk about it: The Guardian - https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/apr/15/liverpool-remembers-hillsborough-victims-on-30th-anniversary-of-disaster CNN - https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/15/sport/hillsborough-liverpool-stadium-30th-anniversary-gbr-spt-intl/index.html BBC - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-47933911 (and https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-47912890) Liverpool FC - https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/announcements/345294-lfc-to-mark-30th-anniversary-of-hillsborough
And goes on...
So, is there going to be a mention of this in the article? RandomEditorAAA ( talk) 02:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Talk:Hillsborough disaster and The Sun § Information flow. —
Bilorv (
talk)
20:03, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
I think Steven Cohen (soccer) should be merged into this article on the grounds of WP:BLP1E. There is very little verifiable information about the subject and any sources that indicate any level of notability are dedicated to his comments concerning this single event. TipsyElephant ( talk) 18:56, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't even think it's worth merging, unless we're going to include every vaguely prominent figure to have made stupid comments about the disaster. Would favour deletion of the Cohen article rather than merging. -- OGBC1992 ( talk) 13:54, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Oppose: I think the same as OGBC1992 to be honest. It'd clutter the article to non end, and he isn't worth mentioning in this article. -- MattBinYYC ( talk) 20:42, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
Oppose: Agreed, nothing worth merging. Pincrete ( talk) 07:27, 26 August 2021 (UTC)