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I have removed the tag as no justification has been given anywhere for it. Neuer is the head of a major organization and featured in a remarkably ironic incident. If you want to restore the tag, give a reason. Mangoe 02:37, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
No justification for notability. UN Watch appears to have only one small offfice and does not seem to be a major organization. Jeanratelle 00:42, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
When I created this page I offered what I think was a pretty unbiased presentation of the two main reasons why anyone would have heard of Hillel Neuer, to wit: his firebrand speech to the UN Human Rights Council and his arrest in Needham, Massachusetts. Since then, a couple of Mr. Neuer's supporters have gotten hold of this page and turned it into what comes across as campaign literature. The original two items in the article are now presented as evidence of Mr. Neuer's martyrdom. I read it and wonder to myself, who was mightier: Hillel Neuer or Mohandas Gandhi? Based on their Wikipedia entries, it's tough to tell.
So, there are now too many hyperbolic statements in this article to list; it would be nice if the article were presented in a toned-down, slightly more balanced way. I might try editing this myself...the next time I have a couple of hours on my hands!
Many critics of Mr. Neuer might observe that his strong human-rights record is marred by his unwavering support for the Israeli government and its countless violations of UN resolutions and, ironically, his defense of that country's violation of Palestinian human rights. It would be nice if something about this were presented in a balanced way; I'll try to write something myself but it's amazing how the defenders of Israel's weapons industry (and their political proxies) are quick to censor anything that makes them look bad. Hopefully, though, the editors here are all reasonable people (fingers crossed). Seinfeld1966 04:57, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
The facts show that Seinfeld1966 is interested to score partisan political points against a certain country (Israel) rather than to objectively describe a certain individual (Neuer). Seinfeld1966 claims that Neuer was essentially unknown before his March 23, 2007 speech to the UN. In fact, a quick search of the data shows that long before that testimony, Neuer was publishing books, confronting dictatorships at the UN, testifying before the U.S. Congress, being interviewed on CNN, and lecturing at major universities around the world. In September 2006, the chair of the US congressional sub-committee on UN and international affairs described Neuer as "a leading commentator on UN human rights reform, appearing on CNN and the BBC. As a former international lawyer, the U.S. District Court of New York cited Mr. Neuer for his superb work in human rights advocacy." [1] The McGill Law School's human rights program elaborates on the same. [2]
But Seinfeld1966 shows himself entirely oblivious to and uninterested in facts, authoritative citations, or dates. He's looking for an ad hominem smear. Hence he plays up the Nov. 2 pizza lady's report that was quickly proven false by the Massachusetts state court, Boston's leading newspapers, and for which the police themselves expressed regret. Seinfeld1966's main motive is to attack Neuer for his support of a UN Human Rights Council that does something other than criticize Israel, a simple point shared by UN secretaries-general Kofi Annan, Ban Ki-moon, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Seinfeld1966 can disagree, but that does not entitle him to distort a biography out of a biased political agenda.
"A pretty unbiased presentation" indeed!
Jeanratelle 12:41, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
The reference shows up in legal databases in the US district court ruling of Reynolds v. Goord, No. 98 Civ. 6722 (DLC), 2001 WL 118564, at *3 (S.D.N.Y. Feb 13, 2001). Jeanratelle 16:14, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I have added a link to the top of the talk page describing the discretionary sanctions that cover this article. Compliance is mandatory. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
It is quite clear Hillel Neuer is yet another Zionist who hides behind some phoney partisan human rights group to promote his views. A section should be added.
Why are there five references in the lead concerning the subject being the executive director of UN Watch? I do not see where this has been a concern so more than one relevant reliable source (References are usually found in the body of the article as the lead is just a summary) is citation overkill. Otr500 ( talk) 09:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Shalom11111, the problem with your edit is that indeed it's a resume entry unless you provide secondary sources. For appearing before the UN you link to YouTube which has, I suppose, footage of it--but beside the fact that using YouTube on Wikipedia and especially in BLPs is strongly discouraged if not forbidden (there are many good reasons for it), it is primary. We should not be using primary sourcing, because if we did, and if we considered that primary sourcing is sufficient, we can basically cite every single life event--"sourced" to Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, the family photo album, someone's resume at some file service, a scan of someone's syllabus (I have seen the latter being used in that way). Something similar applies to "is regularly quoted by major media outlets including the Jerusalem Post"--sourced to, of course, the Jerusalem Post. If a secondary source said this, and you would cite that, I wouldn't have a problem with it, and my problem is not that it is somehow doubtful that the JP quoted him if the link proves it, but that we shouldn't be making the judgment that this is worth listing in the article--again, are you listing everything? And "regularly", isn't that really original research? What is regularly? So what you have reinstated is indeed a resume, reciting facts from someone's life that are not substantiated (or given weight) by secondary sources, and thus essentially you are promoting the subject. Especially in BLPs that is just a real serious problem. I will not revert right now though I think it is serious enough--it's not even a content dispute, since it touches on matters of policy. Drmies ( talk) 16:56, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 6 January 2018. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hillel Neuer article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that a photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality.
The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
I have removed the tag as no justification has been given anywhere for it. Neuer is the head of a major organization and featured in a remarkably ironic incident. If you want to restore the tag, give a reason. Mangoe 02:37, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
No justification for notability. UN Watch appears to have only one small offfice and does not seem to be a major organization. Jeanratelle 00:42, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
When I created this page I offered what I think was a pretty unbiased presentation of the two main reasons why anyone would have heard of Hillel Neuer, to wit: his firebrand speech to the UN Human Rights Council and his arrest in Needham, Massachusetts. Since then, a couple of Mr. Neuer's supporters have gotten hold of this page and turned it into what comes across as campaign literature. The original two items in the article are now presented as evidence of Mr. Neuer's martyrdom. I read it and wonder to myself, who was mightier: Hillel Neuer or Mohandas Gandhi? Based on their Wikipedia entries, it's tough to tell.
So, there are now too many hyperbolic statements in this article to list; it would be nice if the article were presented in a toned-down, slightly more balanced way. I might try editing this myself...the next time I have a couple of hours on my hands!
Many critics of Mr. Neuer might observe that his strong human-rights record is marred by his unwavering support for the Israeli government and its countless violations of UN resolutions and, ironically, his defense of that country's violation of Palestinian human rights. It would be nice if something about this were presented in a balanced way; I'll try to write something myself but it's amazing how the defenders of Israel's weapons industry (and their political proxies) are quick to censor anything that makes them look bad. Hopefully, though, the editors here are all reasonable people (fingers crossed). Seinfeld1966 04:57, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
The facts show that Seinfeld1966 is interested to score partisan political points against a certain country (Israel) rather than to objectively describe a certain individual (Neuer). Seinfeld1966 claims that Neuer was essentially unknown before his March 23, 2007 speech to the UN. In fact, a quick search of the data shows that long before that testimony, Neuer was publishing books, confronting dictatorships at the UN, testifying before the U.S. Congress, being interviewed on CNN, and lecturing at major universities around the world. In September 2006, the chair of the US congressional sub-committee on UN and international affairs described Neuer as "a leading commentator on UN human rights reform, appearing on CNN and the BBC. As a former international lawyer, the U.S. District Court of New York cited Mr. Neuer for his superb work in human rights advocacy." [1] The McGill Law School's human rights program elaborates on the same. [2]
But Seinfeld1966 shows himself entirely oblivious to and uninterested in facts, authoritative citations, or dates. He's looking for an ad hominem smear. Hence he plays up the Nov. 2 pizza lady's report that was quickly proven false by the Massachusetts state court, Boston's leading newspapers, and for which the police themselves expressed regret. Seinfeld1966's main motive is to attack Neuer for his support of a UN Human Rights Council that does something other than criticize Israel, a simple point shared by UN secretaries-general Kofi Annan, Ban Ki-moon, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Seinfeld1966 can disagree, but that does not entitle him to distort a biography out of a biased political agenda.
"A pretty unbiased presentation" indeed!
Jeanratelle 12:41, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
The reference shows up in legal databases in the US district court ruling of Reynolds v. Goord, No. 98 Civ. 6722 (DLC), 2001 WL 118564, at *3 (S.D.N.Y. Feb 13, 2001). Jeanratelle 16:14, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I have added a link to the top of the talk page describing the discretionary sanctions that cover this article. Compliance is mandatory. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
It is quite clear Hillel Neuer is yet another Zionist who hides behind some phoney partisan human rights group to promote his views. A section should be added.
Why are there five references in the lead concerning the subject being the executive director of UN Watch? I do not see where this has been a concern so more than one relevant reliable source (References are usually found in the body of the article as the lead is just a summary) is citation overkill. Otr500 ( talk) 09:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Shalom11111, the problem with your edit is that indeed it's a resume entry unless you provide secondary sources. For appearing before the UN you link to YouTube which has, I suppose, footage of it--but beside the fact that using YouTube on Wikipedia and especially in BLPs is strongly discouraged if not forbidden (there are many good reasons for it), it is primary. We should not be using primary sourcing, because if we did, and if we considered that primary sourcing is sufficient, we can basically cite every single life event--"sourced" to Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, the family photo album, someone's resume at some file service, a scan of someone's syllabus (I have seen the latter being used in that way). Something similar applies to "is regularly quoted by major media outlets including the Jerusalem Post"--sourced to, of course, the Jerusalem Post. If a secondary source said this, and you would cite that, I wouldn't have a problem with it, and my problem is not that it is somehow doubtful that the JP quoted him if the link proves it, but that we shouldn't be making the judgment that this is worth listing in the article--again, are you listing everything? And "regularly", isn't that really original research? What is regularly? So what you have reinstated is indeed a resume, reciting facts from someone's life that are not substantiated (or given weight) by secondary sources, and thus essentially you are promoting the subject. Especially in BLPs that is just a real serious problem. I will not revert right now though I think it is serious enough--it's not even a content dispute, since it touches on matters of policy. Drmies ( talk) 16:56, 10 January 2018 (UTC)