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I think that the translation is not correct. At school I learned a different meaning of the words:
I heard tell That warriors met in single combat Hildebrand and Hadubrand with two armies (that means: each of them had an army behind him) son and father prepared their armour made ready their battle garments girded on their swords the warriors, over their plate armour (made of rings) when they rode to battle.
-- 195.37.69.10 09:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
The strange dialect mixture of the text is not Old High German and Old Saxon, but Old Bavarian and Old Saxon. If you make a difference between Old German and Old Saxon, you have the be consequent. As some of you understand modern High German, take a look at what the German wikipedia says:
The only "strange" thing about that is, that it doesn't fit into the standard concept of a unified Old German language in early medieval times, that only had some minor regional pecularities.
A scientific source mentioning the same classification is: "University of Innsbruck, Köbler Gerhard, Old High German dictionary, (4th edition) 1993"; See the "Vorwort" (PDF) and the classification of primary sources there: Althochdeutsches Wörterbuch - Universiät Innsbruck (hochdaidsch)
Note that the text you can see in the German Wikisource is already slightly altered from the original and a little bit standardized to make it fit more in the unified Old High German concept.
Greetings ... -- El bes 21:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
1.: Sabrina Prinzen, Universität Trier: Die phonologische Beschreibung des Vokalismus im Hildebrandslied, Zitat:
Which means: A bavarian writer tried to write a text in old Saxon, but couldn't really do it, because his first language (Old Bavarian) already had finished the consonant shift and he was not able to reconstruct pre-sound-shift words correctly. -- El bes 19:47, 24. Okt. 2007 (CEST)
2.: Bibliotheca Augustiana Website, Das Hildebrandslied:
Also interesting: The text says, that the Lay of Hildebrand is "the only heroic lay in a germanic idiome ... " This is a very careful choice of words, because todays scholars don't dare to just call the language "Old High German" like 19th century scholars did and also those of the first half of the 20th century. But the Bibliotheca Augustiana still doesn't go so far as to admit that the Lay of Hildebrand is in reality one of the oldest examples of Bavarian, in a time when no German existed. -- El bes 20:11, 24. Okt. 2007 (CEST)
3.: Meyers Lexikon Online, Kategorien: Nationalliteraturen | Alte deutsche Literatur bis ca.1918, Hildebrandslied (sic!)
Addition: Why could it happen, that a bavarian writer tried to write a text in Old Saxon, but only managed to do it poorely?
The monastry of Fulda was founded by Saint Sturm in the year 744. Sturmi came from the Bavarian speaking area and was most probably born in Lauriacum, which is in today's Enns in Upper Austria. With him came also other bavarian monks and also relatives to the north. The monastry of Fulda mainly engaged in missionary work among the neighbouring Saxon areas, a tribe that was still mostly pagan. They needed texts in the Saxon language, to preach to them and therefor translated mostly Latin texts into Old Saxon, most of them being of clergic origin. One of the only exemptions is the Lay of Hildebrand, which was of Bavarian origin and was only slightly "Saxonized". Even after Sturmi's death the monastry had links to Bavaria, like Eigil of Fulda, the 4th bishop, who was the nephew of Sturmi and therefor also from Bavarian origin. Note that this is a theory and no commonly accepted fact, never the less that the theory is very plausible and also the content of the Lay of Hildebrand indicates to the southern region and most likely took place somewhere along the Danube (which was Bavarian speaking area from the 6th century on).
A source on the misleading concept of a calling the language of the Lay of Hildebrand "Old High German":
Quote from the canadian linguist Chirstoph Lorey, University of New Brunswick, about the book of Cyril Edwards "The Beginnings of German Literature: Comparative and Interdisciplinary Approaches to Old High German. Rochester: Camden House, 2002", which is cited in the article:
and for those of you who still believe in the concept of "Old High German", one especially interesting quote from Professor Otto Kronsteiner, University of Salzburg (also in German):
Translation: "The only thing real about the term Old High German is the word "old". During this era there was no German, nor a High German and also no Middle High German. There were sporadic attempts, in various regions (along Lake Constance, around Salzburg) to form a written language from dialects, but they all were later extinct and discontinued, while the underlying dialects (like Alemannic or Bavarian) still exist today."
Cheers -- El bes ( talk) 19:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I would like to move the information on the Jüngeres Hildebrandslied from Legends about Theoderic the Great to this page. Does anyone have any suggestions for where it might fit? Ermenrich ( talk) 13:36, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I think that the translation is not correct. At school I learned a different meaning of the words:
I heard tell That warriors met in single combat Hildebrand and Hadubrand with two armies (that means: each of them had an army behind him) son and father prepared their armour made ready their battle garments girded on their swords the warriors, over their plate armour (made of rings) when they rode to battle.
-- 195.37.69.10 09:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
The strange dialect mixture of the text is not Old High German and Old Saxon, but Old Bavarian and Old Saxon. If you make a difference between Old German and Old Saxon, you have the be consequent. As some of you understand modern High German, take a look at what the German wikipedia says:
The only "strange" thing about that is, that it doesn't fit into the standard concept of a unified Old German language in early medieval times, that only had some minor regional pecularities.
A scientific source mentioning the same classification is: "University of Innsbruck, Köbler Gerhard, Old High German dictionary, (4th edition) 1993"; See the "Vorwort" (PDF) and the classification of primary sources there: Althochdeutsches Wörterbuch - Universiät Innsbruck (hochdaidsch)
Note that the text you can see in the German Wikisource is already slightly altered from the original and a little bit standardized to make it fit more in the unified Old High German concept.
Greetings ... -- El bes 21:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
1.: Sabrina Prinzen, Universität Trier: Die phonologische Beschreibung des Vokalismus im Hildebrandslied, Zitat:
Which means: A bavarian writer tried to write a text in old Saxon, but couldn't really do it, because his first language (Old Bavarian) already had finished the consonant shift and he was not able to reconstruct pre-sound-shift words correctly. -- El bes 19:47, 24. Okt. 2007 (CEST)
2.: Bibliotheca Augustiana Website, Das Hildebrandslied:
Also interesting: The text says, that the Lay of Hildebrand is "the only heroic lay in a germanic idiome ... " This is a very careful choice of words, because todays scholars don't dare to just call the language "Old High German" like 19th century scholars did and also those of the first half of the 20th century. But the Bibliotheca Augustiana still doesn't go so far as to admit that the Lay of Hildebrand is in reality one of the oldest examples of Bavarian, in a time when no German existed. -- El bes 20:11, 24. Okt. 2007 (CEST)
3.: Meyers Lexikon Online, Kategorien: Nationalliteraturen | Alte deutsche Literatur bis ca.1918, Hildebrandslied (sic!)
Addition: Why could it happen, that a bavarian writer tried to write a text in Old Saxon, but only managed to do it poorely?
The monastry of Fulda was founded by Saint Sturm in the year 744. Sturmi came from the Bavarian speaking area and was most probably born in Lauriacum, which is in today's Enns in Upper Austria. With him came also other bavarian monks and also relatives to the north. The monastry of Fulda mainly engaged in missionary work among the neighbouring Saxon areas, a tribe that was still mostly pagan. They needed texts in the Saxon language, to preach to them and therefor translated mostly Latin texts into Old Saxon, most of them being of clergic origin. One of the only exemptions is the Lay of Hildebrand, which was of Bavarian origin and was only slightly "Saxonized". Even after Sturmi's death the monastry had links to Bavaria, like Eigil of Fulda, the 4th bishop, who was the nephew of Sturmi and therefor also from Bavarian origin. Note that this is a theory and no commonly accepted fact, never the less that the theory is very plausible and also the content of the Lay of Hildebrand indicates to the southern region and most likely took place somewhere along the Danube (which was Bavarian speaking area from the 6th century on).
A source on the misleading concept of a calling the language of the Lay of Hildebrand "Old High German":
Quote from the canadian linguist Chirstoph Lorey, University of New Brunswick, about the book of Cyril Edwards "The Beginnings of German Literature: Comparative and Interdisciplinary Approaches to Old High German. Rochester: Camden House, 2002", which is cited in the article:
and for those of you who still believe in the concept of "Old High German", one especially interesting quote from Professor Otto Kronsteiner, University of Salzburg (also in German):
Translation: "The only thing real about the term Old High German is the word "old". During this era there was no German, nor a High German and also no Middle High German. There were sporadic attempts, in various regions (along Lake Constance, around Salzburg) to form a written language from dialects, but they all were later extinct and discontinued, while the underlying dialects (like Alemannic or Bavarian) still exist today."
Cheers -- El bes ( talk) 19:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I would like to move the information on the Jüngeres Hildebrandslied from Legends about Theoderic the Great to this page. Does anyone have any suggestions for where it might fit? Ermenrich ( talk) 13:36, 1 April 2018 (UTC)