This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
I removed all content of the discussion page as of 2.June 2004 here, although a few paragraphs will remain on the discussion page itself. -- AlexR 01:33, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
" Transgender people offer another challenge to the assumption of an unambiguously male or female human beings. Transgender people always violate the assumption of an unambiguous male or female identity. Many also seek to change the sexual characteristics of their body, and this is seen as violation of the assumption of unambiguous anatomy, and also of gender roles and sexuality." is now " Transgender people offer another challenge to the assumption that sex, gender identity, gender roles, and sexual orientation correspond to one another and must all either be male or female."
"basically confirms" to "reinforces"
"include" to "can include"
As one of the recently debated sections shows, the article has a very bis problem - the basic heteronormative assumption of sex = gender identity = gender role = sexual orientation is not defined anywhere anymore; it must have gotten lost during the edit wars. Consequently, the article is very likely somewhat confusing; that should go back to the very beginning of the article. I am however to tired to do so right away, so do we have a volunteer here? -- AlexR 04:20, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
My personal feeling is that Alex tends to be a little autocratic when it comes to the articles s/he cares about. I don't see the problem with the box really, though I've agreed with a few of Alex's comments here. Whatever the case, it's time to take a break from reverting this article. You're already at 6 reverts in the last day. Exploding Boy 13:41, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
Hi! No, I am usually not, on the contrary. However, this particular article has seen 3 1/2 edit wars in the last week or two, I think there was exactly one day of rest in between. Consequently, my patience is a bit thin right now. I don't mind a link to the list, I put it in myself. But that box is far too big, it hijacks the whole article as being part of critical theory only, which is what snowspinner tried for days now. Obviously, this is not acceptable. Numerous other project just put in links, and why should this one be different. As for the LGBT box - I am rather surprised by it, one person is throwing it into many articles now. In this case, it is not really needed, in my personal opinion, since all topics it links to are in the List of transgender-related topics, too. A link would be OK, but I am not particularly sad about trading it in for no Critical Theory box. -- AlexR 13:55, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
As another note, I'm out of town for the weekend. If AlexR reverts the box again and I don't do anything until Monday, it should not be taken as my giving up on the matter - it's just that I wasn't near a computer where I could do anything. =)
Snowspinner 06:05, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I heartilly object to the removal of the objections section. Sam Spade 06:35, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I moved {{msg:CriticalTheory}} to this talk page. Every other Wikiproject links only from the talk pages, never from the articles. I don't want to get involved in whatever fights are going on with this article, but please retain the conventions of the other projects in keeping this out of the main namespace. Angela . 11:12, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia:NPOV dispute, Wikipedia:Accuracy dispute. Read the policies, and try not to be so silly. Sam Spade 21:37, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
These are mostly for Sam's benefit. Hyacinth 00:39, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
What for? Do you seriously expect him to actually come forward with an argument? Check his history, he is a well know troll. He will take those quotes only as further proof that society indeed need protection against these "horrors". Check his remark from 9 Apr 2004 20:32 (UTC) in /Archive 2004 2, that should tell you all about his attitude you'll ever need to know. -- AlexR 01:08, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Wow, when a page draws the most recent three entries on RfC, it's hard to tell whether an outside participant weighing in will cool tempers or fuel the fire. Anyway...
Boxes. What function do these boxes serve that is not served by the See also or Related articles on many pages? Here, it seems that the box is a collection of articles that while somewhat related to the issue at hand, are more broadly related than the articles listed under "See also," which raises the question of why those articles less directly related are given emphasis through highlighting? I think the "List of transgender-related topics" link is the right idea ... one of the "See also" links is a link to a list of the broadly related topics. Shimmin 02:02, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Bleh. The See also list is now ridiculously long, and contains entries that are indirectly linked to Heteronormativity at best. On top of that, the entry would become totaly unmanagable were I to add in the Critical Theory articles that the CT box would provide reference to. One of the things that the boxes allow is for a different kind of link. The See Also category should contain topics that directly relate to the content of the article. Boxes, on the other hand, give topics that are more related "in spirit" if you will - topics that may not address the same exact subject matter, but that instead reflect a similar viewpoint. For instance, an article on Evolution will have a see also to Puncuated Equilibrium, Creationism, and Biology. But it's not necessarily going to have something to memes, to social Darwinism, etc. I think, though, that there's a promising approach to reading the articles that way. In that regard, a series box might be justifiable.
Put another way, Wikipedia is hyperlinked, which allows for a wealth of threads and insights. One of the biggest advantages of it is the way in which it allows threads to be traced beyond the most obvious and most universally accepted ones. Series boxes are an essential part of that. Snowspinner 21:01, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Hey yall, maybe a third persepctive is needed. It seems to me there are two questions:
I find very enticing Snowspinner's arguments that boxes are just one of many ways to link to things. They would never be central to, but could be a part of, wikipedias pluralism. I think that they could be a quicker and more clear way of grouping articles than to do so in the text of the articles, which may then be given over to explaining how it differs from or partially falls outside of any groups.
I find very convincing AlexR's arguments that boxes easily interfere with understanding articles and how those articles connect to other subjects, and how they may POV an article or group of articles.
I would suggest to Snowspinner that you create clear guidelines for writing and placing boxes, in that way you can ensure their quality and at least partially meet the objections against them (by incorporating those objections in your guidelines). I would suggest to AlexR that, if not completely opposed to ALL boxes, you create guidelines yourself, or at least a description of which boxes, where and when, you find acceptable. Ideally, you would collaborate. Things to consider:
If this doesn't alleviate the tone of the dispute, it will at least bring more clarity. If this is already taking place, my apologizes, please point me to it.
Hyacinth 02:56, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I removed both boxes - the LGBT-Links had been added to the link section, and you can link your List of CT-articles to the links, too, as everybody else does. Did you hope it won't be noticed, or are you seriously convinced that a list of articles on critical theory has more rights than other topics or lists? -- AlexR 20:55, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
Moving to the left again for reasons of readability.
I don't know what makes you think that you adapted the box according to my comments - my comment on this box is that it should not be a box at all, but a link, like the "List of transgender-related subjects".
And I did mention taking the debate elsewhere - "Just check the debates about them; not just this one. The mailing list is one place, the IRC another, and how about Wikipedia talk:Article series (...) AlexR 01:00, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)"
And I have already noticed that you don't consider intersex and transgender people to be particular relevant - I guess they just did not turn up in sufficient numbers in your academic journals to be noticed. (LGB people not, either, I guess, but they already put in their own box), I already mentioned that more than once, too. Both don't have boxes yet, because they did what was adequate, making a list. Actually, at them moment they are still on the same list. But you know, that might change quickly. And those are particularly the ones that you currently drown with the box. You have not mentionend a single reason why the link of the article to Critical Theory is so much more important than for example the one to the List of transgender-related subjects. (Except your personal bias towards it, of course.)
The link, as it is now, is perfectly OK with me, and that is what I suggested in the first place. Now please give me one reason what you consider to be wrong with that.
And don't exaggerate, either. I never suggested simply reverting the article, nor would I object at all if you could put something more about the academical part of the subject in -- preferably without deleting other stuff as you did in the beginning. It is merely this box we have been talking about for ages now; time both of us could have spent in a much more productive way, I am sure.
--
AlexR
22:11, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
After much debate on the subject, Hyacinth suggested creating clear guidelines for writing and placing boxes in Talk:Heteronormativity, which is a good idea, in my opinion. Here, therefore, my attempt can be found: User:AlexR/Article series boxes -- AlexR 16:48, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
Shall we edit racism, sexism, homophobia, marxism, pacifism, socialism, communism, evil, bad..... to include a link to pejorative in their first sentence?
For starters I made a number of edits of what I could see no reasonable person arguing in favor of (excesses of POV). The folowing are either more debatable, or more often, difficult for me to replace.
All in all, the person really to blame here is not any of you, nor any editor of the wikipedia, but rather the hack prof. who came up w this confounded assault upon intelligible discourse. Sam Spade 04:42, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Wow, I think you might want to substitute your gang member example for something less distressing! I happen to have been close friends w a large number of gang members, and they didn't rape anybody to my knowledge, gang style or otherwise. As far as critical theory, I know absolutely nothing of it outside of what I have seen here, so you might expect a bit of differences in our perceptions on it. I suppose I'll have to take a look at Critical Theory. I notice you made no mention of the issues regarding poorly documented allegations, and thus assume you are in general agreement w me on these particulars? Sam Spade 05:07, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
"It is a rather amazing fact that, of the very many dimensions along which the genital activity of one person can be differentiated from that of another (dimensions that include preference for certain acts, certain zones or sensations, certain physical types, a certain frequency, certain symbolic investments, certain relations of age or power, a certain species, a certain number of participants, etc. etc. etc.), precisely one, the gender of object choice, emerged from the turn of the century, and has remained as the dimension denoted by the now ubiquitous category of 'sexual orientation'" - Eve Sedgwick, Epistemology of the Closet, page 8.
That is why that sentence is there. Because it is clearly Sedgwick's point. Snowspinner 05:44, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
I removed all content of the discussion page as of 2.June 2004 here, although a few paragraphs will remain on the discussion page itself. -- AlexR 01:33, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
" Transgender people offer another challenge to the assumption of an unambiguously male or female human beings. Transgender people always violate the assumption of an unambiguous male or female identity. Many also seek to change the sexual characteristics of their body, and this is seen as violation of the assumption of unambiguous anatomy, and also of gender roles and sexuality." is now " Transgender people offer another challenge to the assumption that sex, gender identity, gender roles, and sexual orientation correspond to one another and must all either be male or female."
"basically confirms" to "reinforces"
"include" to "can include"
As one of the recently debated sections shows, the article has a very bis problem - the basic heteronormative assumption of sex = gender identity = gender role = sexual orientation is not defined anywhere anymore; it must have gotten lost during the edit wars. Consequently, the article is very likely somewhat confusing; that should go back to the very beginning of the article. I am however to tired to do so right away, so do we have a volunteer here? -- AlexR 04:20, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
My personal feeling is that Alex tends to be a little autocratic when it comes to the articles s/he cares about. I don't see the problem with the box really, though I've agreed with a few of Alex's comments here. Whatever the case, it's time to take a break from reverting this article. You're already at 6 reverts in the last day. Exploding Boy 13:41, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
Hi! No, I am usually not, on the contrary. However, this particular article has seen 3 1/2 edit wars in the last week or two, I think there was exactly one day of rest in between. Consequently, my patience is a bit thin right now. I don't mind a link to the list, I put it in myself. But that box is far too big, it hijacks the whole article as being part of critical theory only, which is what snowspinner tried for days now. Obviously, this is not acceptable. Numerous other project just put in links, and why should this one be different. As for the LGBT box - I am rather surprised by it, one person is throwing it into many articles now. In this case, it is not really needed, in my personal opinion, since all topics it links to are in the List of transgender-related topics, too. A link would be OK, but I am not particularly sad about trading it in for no Critical Theory box. -- AlexR 13:55, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
As another note, I'm out of town for the weekend. If AlexR reverts the box again and I don't do anything until Monday, it should not be taken as my giving up on the matter - it's just that I wasn't near a computer where I could do anything. =)
Snowspinner 06:05, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I heartilly object to the removal of the objections section. Sam Spade 06:35, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I moved {{msg:CriticalTheory}} to this talk page. Every other Wikiproject links only from the talk pages, never from the articles. I don't want to get involved in whatever fights are going on with this article, but please retain the conventions of the other projects in keeping this out of the main namespace. Angela . 11:12, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia:NPOV dispute, Wikipedia:Accuracy dispute. Read the policies, and try not to be so silly. Sam Spade 21:37, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
These are mostly for Sam's benefit. Hyacinth 00:39, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
What for? Do you seriously expect him to actually come forward with an argument? Check his history, he is a well know troll. He will take those quotes only as further proof that society indeed need protection against these "horrors". Check his remark from 9 Apr 2004 20:32 (UTC) in /Archive 2004 2, that should tell you all about his attitude you'll ever need to know. -- AlexR 01:08, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Wow, when a page draws the most recent three entries on RfC, it's hard to tell whether an outside participant weighing in will cool tempers or fuel the fire. Anyway...
Boxes. What function do these boxes serve that is not served by the See also or Related articles on many pages? Here, it seems that the box is a collection of articles that while somewhat related to the issue at hand, are more broadly related than the articles listed under "See also," which raises the question of why those articles less directly related are given emphasis through highlighting? I think the "List of transgender-related topics" link is the right idea ... one of the "See also" links is a link to a list of the broadly related topics. Shimmin 02:02, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Bleh. The See also list is now ridiculously long, and contains entries that are indirectly linked to Heteronormativity at best. On top of that, the entry would become totaly unmanagable were I to add in the Critical Theory articles that the CT box would provide reference to. One of the things that the boxes allow is for a different kind of link. The See Also category should contain topics that directly relate to the content of the article. Boxes, on the other hand, give topics that are more related "in spirit" if you will - topics that may not address the same exact subject matter, but that instead reflect a similar viewpoint. For instance, an article on Evolution will have a see also to Puncuated Equilibrium, Creationism, and Biology. But it's not necessarily going to have something to memes, to social Darwinism, etc. I think, though, that there's a promising approach to reading the articles that way. In that regard, a series box might be justifiable.
Put another way, Wikipedia is hyperlinked, which allows for a wealth of threads and insights. One of the biggest advantages of it is the way in which it allows threads to be traced beyond the most obvious and most universally accepted ones. Series boxes are an essential part of that. Snowspinner 21:01, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Hey yall, maybe a third persepctive is needed. It seems to me there are two questions:
I find very enticing Snowspinner's arguments that boxes are just one of many ways to link to things. They would never be central to, but could be a part of, wikipedias pluralism. I think that they could be a quicker and more clear way of grouping articles than to do so in the text of the articles, which may then be given over to explaining how it differs from or partially falls outside of any groups.
I find very convincing AlexR's arguments that boxes easily interfere with understanding articles and how those articles connect to other subjects, and how they may POV an article or group of articles.
I would suggest to Snowspinner that you create clear guidelines for writing and placing boxes, in that way you can ensure their quality and at least partially meet the objections against them (by incorporating those objections in your guidelines). I would suggest to AlexR that, if not completely opposed to ALL boxes, you create guidelines yourself, or at least a description of which boxes, where and when, you find acceptable. Ideally, you would collaborate. Things to consider:
If this doesn't alleviate the tone of the dispute, it will at least bring more clarity. If this is already taking place, my apologizes, please point me to it.
Hyacinth 02:56, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I removed both boxes - the LGBT-Links had been added to the link section, and you can link your List of CT-articles to the links, too, as everybody else does. Did you hope it won't be noticed, or are you seriously convinced that a list of articles on critical theory has more rights than other topics or lists? -- AlexR 20:55, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
Moving to the left again for reasons of readability.
I don't know what makes you think that you adapted the box according to my comments - my comment on this box is that it should not be a box at all, but a link, like the "List of transgender-related subjects".
And I did mention taking the debate elsewhere - "Just check the debates about them; not just this one. The mailing list is one place, the IRC another, and how about Wikipedia talk:Article series (...) AlexR 01:00, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)"
And I have already noticed that you don't consider intersex and transgender people to be particular relevant - I guess they just did not turn up in sufficient numbers in your academic journals to be noticed. (LGB people not, either, I guess, but they already put in their own box), I already mentioned that more than once, too. Both don't have boxes yet, because they did what was adequate, making a list. Actually, at them moment they are still on the same list. But you know, that might change quickly. And those are particularly the ones that you currently drown with the box. You have not mentionend a single reason why the link of the article to Critical Theory is so much more important than for example the one to the List of transgender-related subjects. (Except your personal bias towards it, of course.)
The link, as it is now, is perfectly OK with me, and that is what I suggested in the first place. Now please give me one reason what you consider to be wrong with that.
And don't exaggerate, either. I never suggested simply reverting the article, nor would I object at all if you could put something more about the academical part of the subject in -- preferably without deleting other stuff as you did in the beginning. It is merely this box we have been talking about for ages now; time both of us could have spent in a much more productive way, I am sure.
--
AlexR
22:11, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
After much debate on the subject, Hyacinth suggested creating clear guidelines for writing and placing boxes in Talk:Heteronormativity, which is a good idea, in my opinion. Here, therefore, my attempt can be found: User:AlexR/Article series boxes -- AlexR 16:48, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
Shall we edit racism, sexism, homophobia, marxism, pacifism, socialism, communism, evil, bad..... to include a link to pejorative in their first sentence?
For starters I made a number of edits of what I could see no reasonable person arguing in favor of (excesses of POV). The folowing are either more debatable, or more often, difficult for me to replace.
All in all, the person really to blame here is not any of you, nor any editor of the wikipedia, but rather the hack prof. who came up w this confounded assault upon intelligible discourse. Sam Spade 04:42, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Wow, I think you might want to substitute your gang member example for something less distressing! I happen to have been close friends w a large number of gang members, and they didn't rape anybody to my knowledge, gang style or otherwise. As far as critical theory, I know absolutely nothing of it outside of what I have seen here, so you might expect a bit of differences in our perceptions on it. I suppose I'll have to take a look at Critical Theory. I notice you made no mention of the issues regarding poorly documented allegations, and thus assume you are in general agreement w me on these particulars? Sam Spade 05:07, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
"It is a rather amazing fact that, of the very many dimensions along which the genital activity of one person can be differentiated from that of another (dimensions that include preference for certain acts, certain zones or sensations, certain physical types, a certain frequency, certain symbolic investments, certain relations of age or power, a certain species, a certain number of participants, etc. etc. etc.), precisely one, the gender of object choice, emerged from the turn of the century, and has remained as the dimension denoted by the now ubiquitous category of 'sexual orientation'" - Eve Sedgwick, Epistemology of the Closet, page 8.
That is why that sentence is there. Because it is clearly Sedgwick's point. Snowspinner 05:44, 12 May 2004 (UTC)