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I copy from el:Συζήτηση:Ελληνικό αλφάβητο#Heta
Let me summarize my findings and try to clarify the issue. The english article is inaccurate and in that sense wrong. It should be merged with eta, they are the same letter.
This article should either change its name or be merged to Eta (letter). Heta and Eta are the same letter pronounced differently. The name of the developed form of heta (half heta) used as a diacritic for spiritus asper is unknown to me, so I propose merge. A page about unicode signs is not a good source, as accurate as it might be, because it deals with the issue from a different perspective.-- Archidamus ( talk) 22:04, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The funny thing is that, even if they are different letters (which I doubt), they share the same name. Heta is namely the form of the word Eta in all dialects which didn't undergo "psilosis" (loss of initial spiritus asper).-- Archidamus ( talk) 23:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Merge to Eta. The only proof so far for the existence of "heta" as a letter on its own right is the Unicode codepoint adopted recently. Unicode is not an authority on language. Unicode is just trying to render two different characters, not two different letters (thus the "h"-eta erroneously transliterated to a non existant "χήτα"), also as per the linguist's homepage that's given as a source. I'd also suggest removing the "Heta" from Template:Greek alphabet and Template:Table Greekletters.- Badseed ( talk) 23:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
On some reflection, I have un-merged this article after all. My main reason is that I now found there is substantially more modern scholarly usage of both the name "Heta" and the tack symbol than I was previously aware of. Most crucially, Jeffery, in her fundamental 1961 book on archaic scripts, seems to be not just talking about the tack glyph, but using it as part of her own analytic vocabulary, i.e. as her own conventional modern label to group together whatever different glyphs are used in the function of denoting /h/ in any of the epichoric alphabets she analyses. Here [1], her website uses the name "heta" but the symbol Latin h in this function, but in the 1961 book you actually find the Ͱ thingie in this role. For instance, she does tables like the following (partially reproduced here), and then in her following text refers to "H" as "Ͱ2".
Letter | ϝ | ζ | η | Ͱ | θ |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | – | ||||
2 | |||||
Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:35, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
[For further use:]
"Μετὰ δὲ τὸ ζ τὸ η, πολλὴν γὰρ συγγένειαν ἔχει πρὸς τὸ α καὶ τὸ ε· καὶ μαρτυρεῖ ὁ παρατατικὸς πῇ μὲν τὸ ἐν τῷ ἐνεστῶτι α εἰς η τρέ- (30) πων, πῇ δὲ τὸ ε εἰς η· ἐπεὶ οὖν συγγένειαν ἔχει μετὰ τοῦ α καὶ ε, εὐλόγως μετ’ αὐτὰ τέτακται. —Διὰ τί τὸ η πρὸ τοῦ τ ψιλοῦται, ἐν δὲ τῷ ἧτα τῷ ὀνόματι τοῦ στοιχείου δασύνεται; Ἐπειδὴ παρὰ τοῖς ἀρ- χαίοις ὁ τύπος τοῦ Η ἐν τύπῳ δασείας ἔκειτο, ὥσπερ καὶ νῦν <παρὰ> τοῖς Ῥωμαίοις." (Commentaria in Dionysii Thracis Artem Grammaticam. Scholia Londinensia (partim excerpta ex Heliodoro). In: A. Hilgard, Grammatici Graeci, vol. 1.3. Leipzig: Teubner, 1901. p.486)
"Διὰ τί δὲ πάντων τῶν φωνηέντων ψιλουμένων, μόνου τοῦ υ φυσικὴν δασεῖαν ἔχοντος, τὸ ἧτα δασύνεται; Ὅτι πάλαι τὸ Η χαρακτὴρ ἦν τῆς δασείας· τοῦ Η τοίνυν χαρακτῆρα τῆς δασείας ἔχοντος, εὐλόγως καὶ τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ δασύνεται· καὶ γὰρ ἄτοπον ἦν ἄλλοις χορηγοῦν τὴν πρόσπνευσιν τῆς δασείας αὐτὸ ταύτης στερεῖσθαι." (ibid. p.494)
"Δεῖ δὲ προειδέναι καὶ τοῦτο, ὅτι τὸ παλαιὸν οὐκ ἦν τὰ κδʹ γράμ- ματα, ἀλλὰ ιϛʹ· οὐκ ἦν δὲ τὰ τρία τὰ λεγόμενα διπλᾶ ζ ξ ψ, τὰ τρία δασέα θ φ χ, τὰ δύο μακρὰ η καὶ ω. [...] πάλιν ἂν ἤθελον γράψαι λέξιν ἔχουσαν τὴν ἐκφώνησιν τοῦ θ, ἔγραφον ἀντὶ τοῦ θ τὸ τ καὶ πρὸς τοῦτο ἐτίθεσαν τὸ παρ’ αὐτοῖς τότε σημεῖον τῆς δασείας, ἐνδεικνύμενοι ὅτι τοῦτο τὸ τ οὐκ ἔστι νῦν τ ἀλλὰ θ τῇ ἐκφωνήσει· ἐπὶ δὲ τῆς ἐκφωνήσεως τοῦ φ ἔγρα- φον τὸ π προστιθέντες, ὡς προείρηται, τὸ παρ’ αὐτοῖς σημεῖον τῆς δα- σείας· ἐπὶ δὲ τῆς τοῦ χ ἐκφωνήσεως τὸ κ ἔγραφον τὸ σημεῖον τῆς δα- σείας προστιθέντες. Ἦν δὲ τὸ παλαιὸν σύμβολον τῆς δασείας τὸ παρ’ ἡμῖν νῦν Η· διὸ ὅτε ἐφευρέθη τὰ ὀκτὼ γράμματα, ὧν τὸ ἕν ἐστι καὶ τὸ Η, ἡ τότε δασεῖα ἐτμήθη εἰς δύο κατὰ κάθετον, καὶ τὸ μὲν πρῶτον αὐτῆς μέρος τῆς δασείας ἐστὶ σημεῖον, τὸ δὲ δεύτερον τῆς ψιλῆς" (Commentarius (sub auctore Melampode vel Diomede), in: A. Hilgard, Grammatici Graeci, vol. 1.3. Leipzig: Teubner, 1901, 34f.)
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I copy from el:Συζήτηση:Ελληνικό αλφάβητο#Heta
Let me summarize my findings and try to clarify the issue. The english article is inaccurate and in that sense wrong. It should be merged with eta, they are the same letter.
This article should either change its name or be merged to Eta (letter). Heta and Eta are the same letter pronounced differently. The name of the developed form of heta (half heta) used as a diacritic for spiritus asper is unknown to me, so I propose merge. A page about unicode signs is not a good source, as accurate as it might be, because it deals with the issue from a different perspective.-- Archidamus ( talk) 22:04, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The funny thing is that, even if they are different letters (which I doubt), they share the same name. Heta is namely the form of the word Eta in all dialects which didn't undergo "psilosis" (loss of initial spiritus asper).-- Archidamus ( talk) 23:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Merge to Eta. The only proof so far for the existence of "heta" as a letter on its own right is the Unicode codepoint adopted recently. Unicode is not an authority on language. Unicode is just trying to render two different characters, not two different letters (thus the "h"-eta erroneously transliterated to a non existant "χήτα"), also as per the linguist's homepage that's given as a source. I'd also suggest removing the "Heta" from Template:Greek alphabet and Template:Table Greekletters.- Badseed ( talk) 23:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
On some reflection, I have un-merged this article after all. My main reason is that I now found there is substantially more modern scholarly usage of both the name "Heta" and the tack symbol than I was previously aware of. Most crucially, Jeffery, in her fundamental 1961 book on archaic scripts, seems to be not just talking about the tack glyph, but using it as part of her own analytic vocabulary, i.e. as her own conventional modern label to group together whatever different glyphs are used in the function of denoting /h/ in any of the epichoric alphabets she analyses. Here [1], her website uses the name "heta" but the symbol Latin h in this function, but in the 1961 book you actually find the Ͱ thingie in this role. For instance, she does tables like the following (partially reproduced here), and then in her following text refers to "H" as "Ͱ2".
Letter | ϝ | ζ | η | Ͱ | θ |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | – | ||||
2 | |||||
Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:35, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
[For further use:]
"Μετὰ δὲ τὸ ζ τὸ η, πολλὴν γὰρ συγγένειαν ἔχει πρὸς τὸ α καὶ τὸ ε· καὶ μαρτυρεῖ ὁ παρατατικὸς πῇ μὲν τὸ ἐν τῷ ἐνεστῶτι α εἰς η τρέ- (30) πων, πῇ δὲ τὸ ε εἰς η· ἐπεὶ οὖν συγγένειαν ἔχει μετὰ τοῦ α καὶ ε, εὐλόγως μετ’ αὐτὰ τέτακται. —Διὰ τί τὸ η πρὸ τοῦ τ ψιλοῦται, ἐν δὲ τῷ ἧτα τῷ ὀνόματι τοῦ στοιχείου δασύνεται; Ἐπειδὴ παρὰ τοῖς ἀρ- χαίοις ὁ τύπος τοῦ Η ἐν τύπῳ δασείας ἔκειτο, ὥσπερ καὶ νῦν <παρὰ> τοῖς Ῥωμαίοις." (Commentaria in Dionysii Thracis Artem Grammaticam. Scholia Londinensia (partim excerpta ex Heliodoro). In: A. Hilgard, Grammatici Graeci, vol. 1.3. Leipzig: Teubner, 1901. p.486)
"Διὰ τί δὲ πάντων τῶν φωνηέντων ψιλουμένων, μόνου τοῦ υ φυσικὴν δασεῖαν ἔχοντος, τὸ ἧτα δασύνεται; Ὅτι πάλαι τὸ Η χαρακτὴρ ἦν τῆς δασείας· τοῦ Η τοίνυν χαρακτῆρα τῆς δασείας ἔχοντος, εὐλόγως καὶ τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ δασύνεται· καὶ γὰρ ἄτοπον ἦν ἄλλοις χορηγοῦν τὴν πρόσπνευσιν τῆς δασείας αὐτὸ ταύτης στερεῖσθαι." (ibid. p.494)
"Δεῖ δὲ προειδέναι καὶ τοῦτο, ὅτι τὸ παλαιὸν οὐκ ἦν τὰ κδʹ γράμ- ματα, ἀλλὰ ιϛʹ· οὐκ ἦν δὲ τὰ τρία τὰ λεγόμενα διπλᾶ ζ ξ ψ, τὰ τρία δασέα θ φ χ, τὰ δύο μακρὰ η καὶ ω. [...] πάλιν ἂν ἤθελον γράψαι λέξιν ἔχουσαν τὴν ἐκφώνησιν τοῦ θ, ἔγραφον ἀντὶ τοῦ θ τὸ τ καὶ πρὸς τοῦτο ἐτίθεσαν τὸ παρ’ αὐτοῖς τότε σημεῖον τῆς δασείας, ἐνδεικνύμενοι ὅτι τοῦτο τὸ τ οὐκ ἔστι νῦν τ ἀλλὰ θ τῇ ἐκφωνήσει· ἐπὶ δὲ τῆς ἐκφωνήσεως τοῦ φ ἔγρα- φον τὸ π προστιθέντες, ὡς προείρηται, τὸ παρ’ αὐτοῖς σημεῖον τῆς δα- σείας· ἐπὶ δὲ τῆς τοῦ χ ἐκφωνήσεως τὸ κ ἔγραφον τὸ σημεῖον τῆς δα- σείας προστιθέντες. Ἦν δὲ τὸ παλαιὸν σύμβολον τῆς δασείας τὸ παρ’ ἡμῖν νῦν Η· διὸ ὅτε ἐφευρέθη τὰ ὀκτὼ γράμματα, ὧν τὸ ἕν ἐστι καὶ τὸ Η, ἡ τότε δασεῖα ἐτμήθη εἰς δύο κατὰ κάθετον, καὶ τὸ μὲν πρῶτον αὐτῆς μέρος τῆς δασείας ἐστὶ σημεῖον, τὸ δὲ δεύτερον τῆς ψιλῆς" (Commentarius (sub auctore Melampode vel Diomede), in: A. Hilgard, Grammatici Graeci, vol. 1.3. Leipzig: Teubner, 1901, 34f.)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:59, 3 November 2017 (UTC)