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Some decent history of philosophy would really help clean up this article. There is a large conflation between "experience" used in The Western sense through thinkers like Locke and Jefferson that does not correspond and cannot be an accurate translation of the Heschasm tradition. The spiritualization of this term "experience" is traceable to the First Great Awakening in the 1740's in Colonial America. The mystical visions and contemplations spoken of here are philosophically a different thing. Knowledge begins in the senses and transcends them by abstracting concepts within the Platonic-Aristotelian-Cappadocian tradition. But "experience" is a question of objects, perceptions, and interpretations of said objects that the Enlightenment West asked about. Hesychasm purports to be a way of being that gets beyond mere experience into mystical unity. Whatever that union is, it is mystical precisely to the degree that it is NOT an experience. God qua Being is not another object of experience like others in the cosmos. If He were, then this would be a Demiurge, not the God that is The Holy Trinity.
There are some serious theological and philosophical problems with the useage of this term, "experience" to translate a tradition MUCH older than The Enlightenment, and especially when applied to religion, to The Great Awakening. From 1 AD to about 1500 "experience" in the West and East was a forger or blacksmith's term. The image was of dirt being burnt up around a lump of gold or silver. Experience then meant to be tried in fire, tested, and proved true, with all impurities melted away. It did not mean "holding an object in one's vision." The allegorical use of "experience" then should only be used to refer to the period of purgation and illumination, but cannot be applied to the unitive state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zadokum ( talk • contribs) 12:02, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
I have started a new WikiProject - Wikipedia: WikiProject Mysticism. This article would surely be of interest to this WikiProject. Vorbee ( talk) 20:58, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Metalune: it's obvious that there are similarities between hesychasm and Indian meditation traditions, but the sources you used seem too speculative. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:41, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
At second thought:
Due to their similarities, hesychasm may have been influenced by Hindu and Buddhist meditation, [1] [2] possibly transmitted to the Sinai peninsula by influence of Sufism. [1] [3] Presence of Indian monks and yogis was noted in Mesopotamia, Syria, Iran and Central Asia since the 9th century, likely influencing Sufism and practices such as dhikr. [1] Sufi Abu Madyan also attests the influence of yoga-like practices in North Africa in the 12th century. [3]
References
En el siglo XIV los monjes de Sinai trajeron una nueva forma de orar a los del Monte Athos, donde se desarrollo el hesicasmo athonico.
In the 14th century, the monks of Sinai brought a new way of praying to those on Mount Athos, where the athonic hesychasm developed.
None of these sources refer to Buddhist monks; it's all about yoga-influences via the Sufi's. See also here (KW) and JD. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 20:35, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
I've added diff the possible Sufi-influences, with a direct reference to Kallistos Ware. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 10:15, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Daask proposed deleting this but also suggested it could be redirected here. I've deprodded so options can be discussed. ~ Kvng ( talk) 20:05, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
Sorry for writing it here. I just wanted to correct a typo ("Sufi's" in note 2 should be "Sufis") but can't see any text when I click "edit". Same for the References section. For your information. 176.88.31.43 ( talk) 15:41, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hesychasm article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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1Auto-archiving period: 30 days
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![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Some decent history of philosophy would really help clean up this article. There is a large conflation between "experience" used in The Western sense through thinkers like Locke and Jefferson that does not correspond and cannot be an accurate translation of the Heschasm tradition. The spiritualization of this term "experience" is traceable to the First Great Awakening in the 1740's in Colonial America. The mystical visions and contemplations spoken of here are philosophically a different thing. Knowledge begins in the senses and transcends them by abstracting concepts within the Platonic-Aristotelian-Cappadocian tradition. But "experience" is a question of objects, perceptions, and interpretations of said objects that the Enlightenment West asked about. Hesychasm purports to be a way of being that gets beyond mere experience into mystical unity. Whatever that union is, it is mystical precisely to the degree that it is NOT an experience. God qua Being is not another object of experience like others in the cosmos. If He were, then this would be a Demiurge, not the God that is The Holy Trinity.
There are some serious theological and philosophical problems with the useage of this term, "experience" to translate a tradition MUCH older than The Enlightenment, and especially when applied to religion, to The Great Awakening. From 1 AD to about 1500 "experience" in the West and East was a forger or blacksmith's term. The image was of dirt being burnt up around a lump of gold or silver. Experience then meant to be tried in fire, tested, and proved true, with all impurities melted away. It did not mean "holding an object in one's vision." The allegorical use of "experience" then should only be used to refer to the period of purgation and illumination, but cannot be applied to the unitive state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zadokum ( talk • contribs) 12:02, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
I have started a new WikiProject - Wikipedia: WikiProject Mysticism. This article would surely be of interest to this WikiProject. Vorbee ( talk) 20:58, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Metalune: it's obvious that there are similarities between hesychasm and Indian meditation traditions, but the sources you used seem too speculative. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:41, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
At second thought:
Due to their similarities, hesychasm may have been influenced by Hindu and Buddhist meditation, [1] [2] possibly transmitted to the Sinai peninsula by influence of Sufism. [1] [3] Presence of Indian monks and yogis was noted in Mesopotamia, Syria, Iran and Central Asia since the 9th century, likely influencing Sufism and practices such as dhikr. [1] Sufi Abu Madyan also attests the influence of yoga-like practices in North Africa in the 12th century. [3]
References
En el siglo XIV los monjes de Sinai trajeron una nueva forma de orar a los del Monte Athos, donde se desarrollo el hesicasmo athonico.
In the 14th century, the monks of Sinai brought a new way of praying to those on Mount Athos, where the athonic hesychasm developed.
None of these sources refer to Buddhist monks; it's all about yoga-influences via the Sufi's. See also here (KW) and JD. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 20:35, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
I've added diff the possible Sufi-influences, with a direct reference to Kallistos Ware. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 10:15, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Daask proposed deleting this but also suggested it could be redirected here. I've deprodded so options can be discussed. ~ Kvng ( talk) 20:05, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
Sorry for writing it here. I just wanted to correct a typo ("Sufi's" in note 2 should be "Sufis") but can't see any text when I click "edit". Same for the References section. For your information. 176.88.31.43 ( talk) 15:41, 18 February 2024 (UTC)