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I just re-wrote the article. Herodias was not the wife of Philip, as this quote from Josephus (vol 18,5,1) will show: "ABOUT this time Aretas (the king of Arabia Petres) and Herod had a quarrel on the account following: Herod the tetrarch had, married the daughter of Aretas, and had lived with her a great while; but when he was once at Rome, he lodged with Herod, who was his brother indeed, but not by the same mother; for this Herod was the son of the high priest Sireoh's daughter. However, he fell in love with Herodias, this last Herod's wife, who was the daughter of Aristobulus their brother, and the sister of Agrippa the Great".
/Martin Hagstrøm, Denmark
Herod, the son of Mariamne II, was called Herod Philip. So there is no conflict between the Gospel accounts and Josephus.
How does it come that Herod the great (Herod I) named his child by his third wife Mariamne II to Herod Philip II, and then his child by his fifth wife Clepatra of Jerusalem to Herod Philip I?
/Malin Klangeryd, Sweden
I haver just posted the following on the talk page for Herod Philip, the disambiguation page:
I question the whole existence of these three pages (Herod Philip [disambiguation], Herod Philip I and Herod Philip II). Philip the Tetrarch (born in c 26 BCE to Herod the Great and Cleopatra, of Jerusalem), the founder (or re-namer) of Caesarea Philippi, is (was) not known as Herod Philip. I can find no reference outside wikipedia to two Herod Philips. The use of references on these pages is cavalier.
The pages on Herod Philip might be rephrased to say something like
The Cambridge Ancient History [3] Vol.10, says that Philip the Tetrarch, “unlike his brothers, did not use Herod as a dynastic name”, and refers to him throughout as Philip, or Philip the Tetrarch. The predecessor CAH [4] had already stated that Philip’s half-brothers Archelaus and Antipas had adopted the name of Herod, "presumably" for a dynastic claim from Herod the Great.
In a further example of the difficulty of naming individuals at this timer, particularly in the family of Herod the Great, , Kokkinos goes to some length to point out that Philip the Tetrarch married NOT Salome, but her mother Herodias, who may have been known as Herodias-Salome. The Salome often claimed to be the wife of Philip was the daughter of this Herodias-Salome, born about 1 BCE, the fruit of her marriage to Herod III, and therefore step-daughter as well as niece of Philip the Tetrarch. Herodias-Salome had divorced Herod III, the son of Herod the Great by Mariamme II (therefore the half-brother of Philip); after Philip’s death in 33 CE, she married a third half-brother, Antipas, the son of Herod the Great by Malthace. (Herod the Great’s sister was also called Salome, born c. 50 BCE.) The ‘Salome’ who asked for Jon the Baptist’s head is not named in the Bible: Matthew (14, 6) says “the daughter of Herodias danced before them”, but does not name her; and Mark (6. 22) similarly calls her “the daughter of the said Herodias”. It appears possible, at least, that the cause of Herod’s rage against John is that the latter was preaching not against him, but against his wife - who had divorced his half-brother, and therefore was not a permissible wife for him.
I am submitting this to the talk pages rather than editing the pages fully, as this appears to me, an outsider to the field (minefield?) of nomenclature around the time of Christ, to be contentious ground. MacAuslan ( talk) 13:22, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: moves were already done while us admin sat around and pondered. Fences& Windows 00:49, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Herod Philip I → Herod II — Needs to override a redirect; the sources in the discussion here clearly indicate that the subject was known as Herod, and in scholarly literature is usually referred to as Herod II.Relisted again. Fences& Windows 22:29, 2 July 2010 (UTC) Relisted. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 21:24, 15 June 2010 (UTC) -- Rbreen ( talk) 20:09, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Difficult. The scholarly literature referred to appears to be by those specialising in history rather than theology. The names Herod Philip I and Herod Philip II seem more common overall than any of the names by which these two men were known during their lifetmes, but stem from a relatively recent convention among theologians. Our problem is that far more people are aquainted with these two men through popular theology than through scholarly history, so in terms of common names, the Herod Philip convention should prevail. But I tend towards invoking WP:IAR and going for the scholarly rather than the common names here. Andrewa ( talk) 02:49, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
I still think this is a difficult one. I ask myself, if a layman is looking or information on this particular man, under what title will they be most likely to find the correct article? And it's a difficult call. I'm still tending to the history scholars rather than the popular theologians, but it's an interesting question, and will set an interesting precedent if it's well argued. Andrewa ( talk) 04:26, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Fences& Windows 22:29, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- or similar. MacAuslan ( talk) 17:03, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
References
Says Herodias was married to Philip not Herod Beothus. Other things different in the Slavonic Josephus however are NOT consistent with changes one would make for the purpose of reconciling it with The Gospels. http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/gno/gjb/gjb-3.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.29.233.157 ( talk) 23:28, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Herod II 2400:AC40:70B:7B14:75FA:429C:F3D0:BD84 ( talk) 08:25, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
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I just re-wrote the article. Herodias was not the wife of Philip, as this quote from Josephus (vol 18,5,1) will show: "ABOUT this time Aretas (the king of Arabia Petres) and Herod had a quarrel on the account following: Herod the tetrarch had, married the daughter of Aretas, and had lived with her a great while; but when he was once at Rome, he lodged with Herod, who was his brother indeed, but not by the same mother; for this Herod was the son of the high priest Sireoh's daughter. However, he fell in love with Herodias, this last Herod's wife, who was the daughter of Aristobulus their brother, and the sister of Agrippa the Great".
/Martin Hagstrøm, Denmark
Herod, the son of Mariamne II, was called Herod Philip. So there is no conflict between the Gospel accounts and Josephus.
How does it come that Herod the great (Herod I) named his child by his third wife Mariamne II to Herod Philip II, and then his child by his fifth wife Clepatra of Jerusalem to Herod Philip I?
/Malin Klangeryd, Sweden
I haver just posted the following on the talk page for Herod Philip, the disambiguation page:
I question the whole existence of these three pages (Herod Philip [disambiguation], Herod Philip I and Herod Philip II). Philip the Tetrarch (born in c 26 BCE to Herod the Great and Cleopatra, of Jerusalem), the founder (or re-namer) of Caesarea Philippi, is (was) not known as Herod Philip. I can find no reference outside wikipedia to two Herod Philips. The use of references on these pages is cavalier.
The pages on Herod Philip might be rephrased to say something like
The Cambridge Ancient History [3] Vol.10, says that Philip the Tetrarch, “unlike his brothers, did not use Herod as a dynastic name”, and refers to him throughout as Philip, or Philip the Tetrarch. The predecessor CAH [4] had already stated that Philip’s half-brothers Archelaus and Antipas had adopted the name of Herod, "presumably" for a dynastic claim from Herod the Great.
In a further example of the difficulty of naming individuals at this timer, particularly in the family of Herod the Great, , Kokkinos goes to some length to point out that Philip the Tetrarch married NOT Salome, but her mother Herodias, who may have been known as Herodias-Salome. The Salome often claimed to be the wife of Philip was the daughter of this Herodias-Salome, born about 1 BCE, the fruit of her marriage to Herod III, and therefore step-daughter as well as niece of Philip the Tetrarch. Herodias-Salome had divorced Herod III, the son of Herod the Great by Mariamme II (therefore the half-brother of Philip); after Philip’s death in 33 CE, she married a third half-brother, Antipas, the son of Herod the Great by Malthace. (Herod the Great’s sister was also called Salome, born c. 50 BCE.) The ‘Salome’ who asked for Jon the Baptist’s head is not named in the Bible: Matthew (14, 6) says “the daughter of Herodias danced before them”, but does not name her; and Mark (6. 22) similarly calls her “the daughter of the said Herodias”. It appears possible, at least, that the cause of Herod’s rage against John is that the latter was preaching not against him, but against his wife - who had divorced his half-brother, and therefore was not a permissible wife for him.
I am submitting this to the talk pages rather than editing the pages fully, as this appears to me, an outsider to the field (minefield?) of nomenclature around the time of Christ, to be contentious ground. MacAuslan ( talk) 13:22, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: moves were already done while us admin sat around and pondered. Fences& Windows 00:49, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Herod Philip I → Herod II — Needs to override a redirect; the sources in the discussion here clearly indicate that the subject was known as Herod, and in scholarly literature is usually referred to as Herod II.Relisted again. Fences& Windows 22:29, 2 July 2010 (UTC) Relisted. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 21:24, 15 June 2010 (UTC) -- Rbreen ( talk) 20:09, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Difficult. The scholarly literature referred to appears to be by those specialising in history rather than theology. The names Herod Philip I and Herod Philip II seem more common overall than any of the names by which these two men were known during their lifetmes, but stem from a relatively recent convention among theologians. Our problem is that far more people are aquainted with these two men through popular theology than through scholarly history, so in terms of common names, the Herod Philip convention should prevail. But I tend towards invoking WP:IAR and going for the scholarly rather than the common names here. Andrewa ( talk) 02:49, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
I still think this is a difficult one. I ask myself, if a layman is looking or information on this particular man, under what title will they be most likely to find the correct article? And it's a difficult call. I'm still tending to the history scholars rather than the popular theologians, but it's an interesting question, and will set an interesting precedent if it's well argued. Andrewa ( talk) 04:26, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Fences& Windows 22:29, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- or similar. MacAuslan ( talk) 17:03, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
References
Says Herodias was married to Philip not Herod Beothus. Other things different in the Slavonic Josephus however are NOT consistent with changes one would make for the purpose of reconciling it with The Gospels. http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/gno/gjb/gjb-3.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.29.233.157 ( talk) 23:28, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Herod II 2400:AC40:70B:7B14:75FA:429C:F3D0:BD84 ( talk) 08:25, 28 April 2022 (UTC)