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I moved the common sense of "hermetic" and "hermeticism" (#2) to the disamb page. If that sense is not explained there, the reader will have no way of guessing which article to read. Jorge Stolfi 23:09, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
As I see the article it links to, he was involved in the occult and mysticism, but nothing says he was a Hermetic. I'm mainly leaving this here as a note to check up on that, and delete the link if found out otherwise. Feel free to hand me the proof.
KV( Talk) 17:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC) KV 18:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Please add in your sources when possible when you add in information. I would like to make this a featured article, and we need everything cited for that.
KV 17:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
After we have put as much information as we can, from our current contributors, and have this fully cited, I intend to convert the harvard notation to endnotes to increase readability. It is too difficult to do mess with numbering before we have a working version. I felt that I should say this so no one is taken by surprise.
KV 19:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
About the Operations, the Puritans called astrology the Operation of the Moon. I'm not entirely sure if that would actually be the Hermetic Operation of astrology, which is why I haven't edited it. It does seem plausible and will leave that up to KV here, since it is a bit of an assumption and I only ran across it on a site about the Puritan view of astrology.
I do find the article a good read and I will see if I can find the other operations. If I do I will post back here with the information.
Stratus Fireborne 11:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
KV 18:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I seriouisly hope that the "Operation of the Earth" is not Theurgy. As far as I know, Theurgy is magic concerning God, in the Judeo/Christian scense. Basing it on that, operation of the earth would be wrong, since it would be paganistic at best. Unless you can conclude that God is nature itself, and how this relates to Theurgy, as well as other Theurgy texts on magic.
I realized after seriously looking at the section, that much of the section has nothing to do with magic and repeats things said elsewhere. This has to be (by me or others) be weeded out, the nonrepeated information that doesn't belong there moved, and rewritten.
KV 19:17, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm also thinking that we might want to change the Thoth pic, amongst searching in Wikimedia commons...... under HERMES.... I found the attached image. It seems to be easier to see, but smaller. Does anyone have an opinion on this?
KV 06:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
First, your "spelling" change was not a valid change, there is both Hermetism and its offshoot Hermeticism. Then you removed cited information without reason, such "speculation" is done by experts in the field, and so is perfectly valid. Then you simply deleted a large block of text, which though I may agree wasn't worded perfectly was also changed on me once before. We can change the wording..... but before you go make any other major changes that aren't additions, but rather radically changing already existing text...... how about if we discuss it here first.
KV 15:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The past doesnt' change, and neither did you show any more recent discoveries that refute them. And the Corpus Hermeticum is dealt very specifically in the article, and the range of dates, based on the Greek linguistic style, push from 500 BCE to 200 CE, not necessarily the 1st century CE. Of course, the earliest version we have found of the Corpus Hermeticum dates to that era, but if we listen to prized Egyptologist E.A. Wallis Budge, who is still seen as such despite his death nearly a century ago, just because the earliest text you found dates to that era, it doesnt' mean that it is the earliest text that existed. There is no surprise that the linguistic style may date to that era if it was translated from Egyptian to Greek at that period. Imagine someone dating the New King James Version Bible, based on linguistics, and by not having any other versions of the Bible, dating the creation of the Bible in the 1970's or 80's.
He was part of part of the Order of Freemasons which he implies though seemingly for reasons of secrecy surrounding the order in which he achieved the honorary degree of 33rd, has come from the Egyptian Mystery schools, and which taught Hermeticism. The ideas in the Corpus Hermeticism surely come from Ancient Egypt, and not Greece, as the translators of the translation I keep citing, have stated. It is certainly likely that the Corpus Hermeticum is quite ancient, despite the greek translation.
Adding evidence that is contrary to what I have said will certainly bring this article closer to NPOV, but what you had changed didn't only add more on that POV (uncited of course) but made it more POV, by eliminating the POV of Hall and the Three Initiates, which was already balanced out somewhat. You add information to bring about NPOV, not delete it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tom harrison ( talk • contribs) .
In my recent editting of the History section, and pulling it out into it's own section...... I have removed some of the text that you didn't like, and currently it is only found in Hermetism currently. We still need expansion on the History section, and removing the text that is unneeded elsewhere now that it's in the History section. When I originally started the History section I struggled to find out about Hermetism, and broke through in my 40th or so hour of research, in finding mention to it in Hall's book. So, I traced Hermeticism back to Ancient Egypt rather than Hermetism. I'm unsure if there should be a section on Hermes Trismegistus specifically in this article, where we expand on him, or if we should simply leave that to the Hermes Trismegistus article, which is where I am leaning. Hopefully you're a bit happier with the current version.
KV 19:30, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
The subtitle in the first picture uses the very general and convoluted designation of "African" for the hypothetical features of an Egyptian person, contrasting it with Caucasian features. Though the point is well taken, the emphasis seems to be rather misplaced. African is not a phenotype, however, the common educated populace understands its connotation as lying in the proximity of Negroid. To use this designation for an Egyptian is rather misleading. Consideration of the majority scholarly opinion based on the convergence of the various fields of Genetics, Anthropology, and Archeology, as well as the detailed visual aid of the non-Pharaonic Egyptian sculptures, leads us to a different conclusion. Nubian presence can be seen--in sculptures--but the distinct features seem to be emphesized. Yet, ancient traditions refer to peoples more commonly associated with the "Caucasian" features you referred to as having much population and culture exchange with Egypt--modern Archeology seems to claim that these movements were actually more prominent than would have been thought from the sources alone. Egyptian myths reflect interaction with Syrian kings. The use of cedar would suggests interaction with the peoples of Lebanon, perhaps Phoenicians. Syrian and Near Eastern records show a great and immediate awareness of Egypt and its processes. Greek tragedies are set in Thebes. Greek architecture can be analyzed as in continuum with Egyptian. And, let us not forget the various Biblical references to migrations into and out of Egypt by such non-African peoples.
While I am fully aware of the concern that might arise--that everything African and external to the European heritage tends to be "exotified" or "orientalized"--it seems more appropriate to accuse the ancient Egyptians and their self-conceived setting of this than to defend them from it. But what was their self-conceived setting? What did they identify as "us"? Who did they conceive of as a credible participants in their international arena--whether they be enemies or allies? Who, on the other hand, was devalued in their eyes to the extent that they were considered unworthy of consideration or condenscion from a civilized nation--especially one such as themselves?
Any answer to all these questions is is complex, difficult, and sure to induce well-meaning academic debate. However, it seems to be that the ancient sense of civilization (in reference to Egypt's self-classification) revolved around the Mediteranean basin most prominently, though perhaps not exclusively. The sense of identity was different throughout ancient and classical times. While an ancient Greek might have mourned his child's marraige to a "Northern Barbarian", the average Victorian may have seen marriage to "some Arab" of average or low standing as undesirable. However, no "European" and especially not one from the British isles, would have considering treating Augustine as some sort of foreign, exotified breed of North African. This is not to exclude the peculiar insularities and claims to a peculiar glory of every nation, Babylonians, Greeks, and Egyptians alike. However, it is worth recognizing that the paradigm of civilization and the archetypal conception of self to which Egypt seems to have subscribed in the ancient times (and anthropological studies of North Africa today will reveal similar trends, though no evidence can be drawn from this due to possible confounding factors such as the interaction of divergeant civilizations) was the Mediteranean. It would be wrong to ignore Egypt's overwhelming ethnic and civilizational heritage as a contributing and receptive member of the conception of the ancient mediteranean civilization.
Just from perusing this page, I'd like to make a couple of observations. First, it would be a lot easier for a newcomer to the discussion to figure out the conversation if everyone would take the time to sign their posts. This is just one of the suggestions for good wikipedia etiquette. Next, when it comes to dating things, I had always thought that the established date of the oldest fragment meant that the text in question was at least that old. The oldest fragment of something that we have might be the oldest there is, or might just be the oldest fragment that survived, or that we have found so far. It seems reasonable to say something like "the oldest known fragment has been dated to year X, but some (scholars/philosophers/whoever) suspect it may be a (a bit/much) older, perhaps as old as year Y. Citations, and reasons for thinking it older could then follow. Wesley \
Regarding whether Thoth or anyone else was a god or a man, the obvious thing to do is to list who thought he was what, and when. If the earliest known time anyone suggested he was human was the 19th century, then go ahead and say whatever 19th century writers suggested he was human, but also say this is the first documented time this was suggested. Might have been suggested earlier of course, but if we don't have evidence of it, it's just speculation, right? Or if more than that, list reasons for thinking it's more than speculation. (shrug). Wesley 17:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Someone I had look at this argument posted on my user page.... User talk:King_Vegita#Thank_you_for_calling_me_in_on_Hermes_Tris
I also had this comment placed under User talk:King_Vegita#Hermeticism which made it hard for me to see at first: "For what it's worth, I think that the article on Hermes Trismegistus is the proper place for mentioning any theories about the figure being based on a real person. It is quite peripheral to the main subject of Hermeticism. Myopic Bookworm 12:44, 2 March 2006 (UTC)"
So, what I have gathered from others so far is:
A) we need more statements to follow the theory B) we should probably put a blanket statement in this and fix up Hermes Trismegistus.
Perhaps that is best, but Hermes Trismegistus still needs a lot of work yet. I'll try to do something about it soon.
All who are interested are asked to join.
Would an editor familiar with this particular religion please give a quick synopsis of the view of Hermeticism on the origin belief page? Thanks! -- ScienceApologist 20:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
The text below one of the illustrations say: "However, if Hermes was from Ancient Egypt, he is unlikely to be Caucasian." But the ancient egyptians, like the current ones, were mainly caucasians so this POV captions should be moderated.
In the article on Hermeticism, under the section "Enter the Corpus Hermeticum", the statement is made : " ... in 391 CE when the Romans burnt the library down." Later, under "Religious and Philosophical Texts" this is repeated: "...in 391 CE when the Romans burnt down the Library of Alexandria." This is misleading. The riots in 391 were specifically 'Christian vs. Pagan' in nature, instigated by Bishop Theophilus. He and others may have thought of themselves as 'Roman' citizens, acting with the blessing of the Emperor in Constantinople, but from our point of view today, the phrase should be " .. in 391 when Christians looted/burned the Library ..." Jrathe 17:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
In some articles, especially Hermetica, it is Poemandres. Here it is Poimandres. So??-- Connection 19:49, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I intend on reinserting the text:
"This is very similar to what one would come up with if they conjoined the quantum mechanics principles of wave-particle duality and nonlocality. Everything being (when not observed for location) a wave and in the same place, we have a wave without dimensions, best described as a vibration" once I have citations, and can reword it to be more NPOV.
KV( Talk) 16:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
File:Standing wave.JPG Will this do for an illustration? Byrgenwulf 07:43, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I found this somewhere in the lead/intro. It strike me as OR and weasel words are being used. It can be added back in once sources are found, and weasel words are dropped. SynergeticMaggot 16:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Removed more. Uncited, seemingly POV or OR, plus there is an issue of section title wording (possible perversion by Christianity, not sure? OR). SynergeticMaggot 16:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I think I fact tagged this a long time ago. Same as the rest, its more like speculation and has no citation. It can be readded in, once this is found and done. SynergeticMaggot 16:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The presumed Egyptian origin of the Hermetica of Bruno and Ficini has been roundly refuted and disproven yet mention of it still abounds, possibly due to the predeliction of such in occult groups. If Hermes Trismagistos was a syncretistic deity comprising Hermes and Thoth his name would be 'Hermes-Thoth' just as Zeus-Ammon was a syncretism of Zeus and Amon. At best Hermes assimilated Thoth but certainly not he reverse. In any case Thoth appears as the son of Hermes and Trismagistos doesn't even feature as anything like a deity in the actual text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.248.192 ( talk) 13:00, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
Deleted as Factually incorrect;
Hellenistic Egyptian who is the representation of the conflation of the Egyptian god Thoth with the Greek Hermes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.137.36.230 ( talk) 12:18, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
The following quoted section has been reworked and the obscurantism deleted. All Gnostic religions are monotheistic in a unitarian and deistic understanding of the term.
"In Hermeticism, the Supreme Deity is referred to variously as God, the All, or the One. The Absolute is the central focus of Hermeticism, and therefore it is difficult to assign it a position among traditional theistic religions, or along the monotheistic–polytheistic spectrum.
Hermeticism transcends both monotheism and polytheism, as well as deism and pantheism. Its philosophy teaches that there is a transcendent God, or Absolute, in which we and the entire universe participate. It also subscribes to the idea that other beings, such as gods, angels and elementals, exist within the universe." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.197 ( talk) 13:24, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
I recall passages from the fifth text of the Corpus Hermeticum that speak of God in very pantheistic and/or transtheistic senses. I could just as easily quote those passages and say that Hermeticism or Hermetism is profoundly pantheistic or transtheistic. We must remember that neither Gnosticism nor Hermeticism were consistent schools of thought. The varied Gnostic and Hermetic texts had varying authors not necessarily agreeing with each other. We must also remember that this article will be read by those not familiar with a "unitarian and deistic understanding" of monotheism; what that is, I must admit to not knowing. I must bluntly state that I believe the removed passages from the article were more appropriate. I must contend this change. -- 75.190.245.39 ( talk) 05:48, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
"I recall passages from the fifth text of the Corpus Hermeticum that speak of God in very pantheistic and/or transtheistic senses." Theres no pantheism in the Hermetica, God is absolutely transcendent. The Fifth Book "Though Unmanifest God Is Most Manifest" teaches that God is manifest by virtue of his creation of the cosmos and not as the universe istelf. As such its an affirmation of deism and a complete rejection of pantheism.
____________
Doubtless that there are schools of Hermetic thought in which God is understood as transcendent and no more; doubtless also is that pantheism is explicitly shown in some Hermetic texts (not only in the fifth text of the CH). To list a few pantheistic\panentheistic expressions:
"Naught is there which he is not. For all are He and He is all." CH V.10
"For that Thou art whatever I may be; Thou art whatever I may do; Thou art whatever I may speak." CH V.11
"And in the All is naught that is not God. Wherefore nor <i.e., neither> size, nor space, nor quality, nor form, nor time, surroundeth God; for He is All, and All surroundeth all, and permeateth all." CH XII.23
Explicitly read, these are expressing dynamic pantheism\panentheism. Id est, immanence is expressed. That the Hermetica express the idea that God can be seen through the cosmos as its creator is not rejected.
What is to be said is that it must be understood that Hermeticism is not a monolithic and coherent school of thought, which I believe is what you are implying. The Hermetica are not a coherent whole, but much like the Bible, is a collection of various texts authored by various authors; eclecticism and incoherence are accepted features of the Hermetica . One will find different and contradictory ideas expressed: Transcendence, Immanence, Evil Cosmos, Good Cosmos, Nous is God, God is not Nous, et cetera. -- 174.110.214.156 ( talk) 15:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
"To list a few pantheistic\panentheistic expressions:" None of those can be said to be anything more than expressing God's omnipresence, substantial pantheism is expllicitly ruled out be the underlying concept of Gods transcendence. In the Hermetica God is absolutely transcendent not identical with the cosmos, that cannot be reconciled with pantheism in any way ahape or form.
You are obscurring the plain reading with modern relativism and forcing a pantheist reading where one really doessn't fit.
"That the Hermetica express the idea that God can be seen through the cosmos as its creator is not rejected."
Thats
Deism not pantheism and yes thats fine, God is seen through his works not because he actually is the cosmos, as in pantheism. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
62.25.109.197 (
talk)
08:04, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
I must disagree. There is no fine line between omnipresence and "omnibeing." The quoted passages and more explicitly read that God is "omnibeing," not omnipresent. That the Hermetica express God as being transcendent is not rejected; however, they also express God as being immanent. That there is contradiction and incoherence to be found in the Hermetica is accepted and well-established. Different schools of thought can be found in the Hermetica and Hermeticism: This is also well-established.
The idea that the observation of the natural world points to a creator deity alone is not deism. This is a fundamental principle and key feature in deism, but it naturally encompasses more ideas than such, such as deity's non-interference and the rejection of special revelation. -- 174.110.214.156 ( talk) 15:18, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
M: Of course there is and thats a perfect example of your obscurantism!
"God alone, unmanifest, who hath made all things by His Will?" CORPUS HERMETICUM V. (VI.) Thats buries pantheism for good, any assertion of pantheism can be measured against it.
M: God certainly doesnt intervene in nature, according to the Hermetica. Theres no divine incarnation therefore revelation is not intervention, its a case of illumination.
"God is All" is not the same as "God is all-present." The former is identifying God while the latter is locating God. Both expressions are found in the Hermetica. The crux is that it must be expressed that there are different schools of thought as well as inconsistency and incoherence to be found in the Hermetica and in Hermeticism: Id est, there is no single Hermetic philosophy or school of thought. Saying otherwise would be contradictory to scholarly opinion and analysis of the Hermetica and of Hermeticism, as well as explicit readings of the Hermetic texts. --
174.110.214.156 (
talk)
15:13, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
In my opinion, the Philosophy section is in need of improvement. It does not express the diversity that is to be found in Hermetic thought. --
174.110.214.156 (
talk)
15:25, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
M: The philosophy section needs cleaning up and not obscurring further.
I think the philosophy section is perhaps taking too much liberty in assuming the character of God in Hermeticism in general and the Hermetic texts in particular, at least in the opening paragraph. There appears to be more subjective interpretation than objective information. For example, "Hermetism is therefore profoundly monotheistic although in a deistic and unitarian understanding of the term." What does this even mean, and can anything in the opening paragraph be supported outside of an ostensibly subjective interpretation of a single passage from a single text of the body of Hermetic literature? 2606:A000:1504:29C:653:8C77:AC0A:11A2 ( talk) 04:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
2606:A000:1504:29C:653:8C77:AC0A:11A2 ( talk) 04:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
As in Hermetism, I propose that all information that comes from Manly P. Hall's works be removed unless it is verified by a reputable third party. - 999 ( Talk) 16:38, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
WikiProject Ancient Egypt (or KV) keeps trying to add this post-Egyptian subject to their project. Please respond as to whether you support or oppose this. Please make a decision below, and discuss in the discussion section.
This is a tricky one as many Hermeticists and Occultists believe that although the texts of the Hermetica are definitely post Ancient Egypt the wisdom is not. The theory goes that the substance of the Hermetica dates back to ancient Pharaonic Egyptian religious ideas. Some commentators claim that similar concepts and images can be found in Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs. I for one have no idea. We know the Hermetica was written in Greek but we also know that there was a lot of intellectual/spiritual traffic between Ancient Greece and Egypt. Pythagoras was supposed to have spent 22 years in Egypt learning his theories. I leave it to the experts - if there are such - to decide. :-) ThePeg 17:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
WP:V states:
It is not for you to decide whether or not he is correct. He is a prominent figure, prominent enough that you have a view on him, which WP:NPOV states:
You need to find something to balance it out if you find him in any way wrong. You cannot simply go through indiscriminately deleting views because you do not like Manly P. Hall.
I'm not sure why this paragraph is in here. I thought that the Corpus Hermeticum was being discussed, not the Book of the Dead. Does Budge mention the Corpus Hermeticum at all? If not, this simply appears to be a speculative attempt to make the C.H. seem older than it is...based on speculation about a completely different book. No thanks, that's not encyclopedic. — Hanuman Das 10:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
The Church has not always been opposed to Hermeticism has it? The article says it has. The Wikipedia has an image of Hermes on a mosaic floor in Sienna Cathedral which suggests integration rather than opposition. The Renaissance was hugely influenced by Hermetic reading. People like Pico, Ficino and many artists and religious figures of their day saw Hermes' words as confirming the message of Christianity. Most Renaissance religious art was inspired by Hermetic ideas as much as Scripture. Milton read and admired and lifted imagery from Hermes. It would be useful to know when the Church cracked down on the Hermetica. Could someone elaborate on this? I suppose one of the fascinating things about the Hermetica is that although it echoes or presages vast amounts of Christian and Judaic ideas and imagery it was never turned into a religion and thus has no dogma attached to it. This means it can be read without prejudice. I'm reading it now and find it extraordinary. One element no-one has talked about is how close to Quantum Theory it is. It is perhaps no surprise that the Coat Of Arms of nuclear scientist Ernest Rutherford has Hermes on it! ThePeg 17:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
At one time most scholars thought that the Hermetica was written by early members of the Christian cult. There are a lot of similarities between ideas expressed in the Hermetica, and ideas expressed by Gnostic Christians. I don't think it was until Coptic versions of the Hermetic texts started to appear, suggesting that they might have pre-dated Christianity, that this idea was even seriously challenged. I'm no scholar, but my studies of the subject lead me to think that early Christianity was a polyglot of different ideas and belief systems-- and there is no reason to think that Hermeticism was singled out until about the same time that the Gnostics were suppressed by Rome. Light lvx 18:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)light_lvx
Can anybody start a stub article on Magical idealism? Thanks. -- 201.51.221.66 15:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I am a devout hermeticist and if I where to inform my friend that I was a hermeticist and they tried to learn more about it by going to this article. I don't think they would even get the slightest idea of what hermeticism is. The main problem I see in this article is that it tries to include and treat material originated in the last few hundreds of years as the same as tracible ancient documents. Lets face it, The corpus hermeticum can be traced thousands of years ago. The Kybalion can not. Trying to suggest that the early hermetic authors believed in the theories in the Kybalion before the Kybalion was published you would have to accept that the early hermetic authors somehow got ahold of this document without public knowledge. The kybalion was published in 1912. Which means that unless this is a mass conspiracy. All hermetic authors before 1912 has no knowledge of the kybalion. Using the Kybalion as a source for the majority of this article without specifying which theories come from which document is needless and confusing. Thusly, I will try to rewrite this article, I will outline which document expresses which theories by quoting the document and expounding it by sourcing the interpretations and I will try to keep as much of the objective information already provided in this article as much intact as possible. This will be quite a project for me, so it will take some time and please express any problems you may have with this and I will try to be as complient as possible. JaynusofSinope 13:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
As a Hermetist I wholeheartedly agree with JaynusofSinope above and would like it on record here that genuine Hermetists wouldnt go anywhere near the Kybalion, Kabbalah or Rosicrucianism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.197 ( talk) 08:33, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
"These beliefs have influenced magic traditions and further, the impact of serving as a set of religious beliefs."
This doesn't make sense. What is "These beliefs have influenced... the impact of serving as a set of beliefs" supposed to mean? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aussietiger ( talk • contribs) 05:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
haha. that bot is fast. realised i forgot to sign, tried to edit to sign, couldn't 'cause the bot was editing it already. aussietiger 05:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I can explain the first part - Hermeticism was a massive influence on the Renaissance and the idea of the Magus as something to aspire to. Champions of Hermeticism included Pico, Ficino, Bruno and a host of others all of whom influenced the development of European culture through their spreading of Hermetic ideas (Leonardo, Michelangelo, Marlowe, Dee, Shakespeare etc all read their work). Some of the non-philosophical elements of the Hermetica include Astrology, the conjuring of spirits into statues and the hierarchy of the universe. Along with Kaballah, the Hermetica set a lot of people off on the search for how one could use the forces of the universe magically - in this sense I mean the word literally ie not tricks but the manipulation of reality, the conjuring of angels and demons (Dee did a lot of this, or believed he did), healing illnesses, achieving immortality etc. Practitioners such as Crowley and the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn all persued this course.
The second half of the sentence doesn't make any sense. Looks like a bit of grammatical error to me. ThePeg 11:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Maybe you could edit it so it makes sense. aussietiger 13:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Which bit? The first bit? I think it makes sense. I can't edit the second bit as I don't know what it should mean. ThePeg 21:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The intro of an article is supposed to function as an abstract, but this introduction only vaguely talks about beliefs and philosophy, and doesn't go into detail about what they are. Hermeticism seems to be distillable into key concepts, and yet the article does not do this at all. If it does, it's so buried in unclear writing that it is indistinguishable. Could someone who knows something about this rewrite the intro so it works? MSJapan 05:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The comment about the Sabians/Sabeans is not quite true. What happened was there was a community of people the Muslims encountered who practised Hermeticism as their religion. When they were told that because they were not mentioned in the Koran as one of the acceptable religions (Judiasm, Christianity, Islam) they were given a period of time to decide what to do - convert or die. They paid an Islamic Scholar a great deal of money for advice. He scoured the Koran and found a reference to a people known as the Sabeans who were also deemed acceptable and advised them to name themselves that. This they did, so when the authorities returned they let them live. The source for this story I found in the book Hermetica: the Lost Wisdom of the Pharoahs. ThePeg 21:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The "medieval rendering" at the top of the page is by Jean-Jacques Boissard, from De Divinatione et Magicis Praestigiis (1605). I wasn't sure how much (if any) of that should go into the caption, but probably at least a link to the artist is appropriate? Strumphs 15:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I have suggested that the As Above, So Below article be merged into this one. There is very little in that article that is not already covered here (other than some examples of rock music lyrics that make use of the term), so there is not much to merge. I simply see no reason for such a short article on a concept that is inseperable from Hermeticism, and which is already covered fairly well here. --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 19:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Any further comment on this matter? It has been more than a month now since I suggested the merger. If there is no further comment, I will go ahead. --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 23:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
We recently had a brief edit flurry, with one editor replacing all dates with "AD/BC" dating... and another editor reverting back to the "CE/BCE" designation. I don't think the dating system has actually been discussed ... so it may be a good idea to get a record of consensus on file in case this becomes an issue. I approve of using CE. Since the article establishes that Hermeticism has non-Christian elements to it, and can even be thought of as a non-Christian religion, I think it is appropriate to use a non-Christian dating system. I am sure there are other reasons. Please express them for the record. Blueboar 14:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
An Episcopalian died and went to Heaven. As St. Peter was escorting him around his new surroundings, he came across a group of people who were suffering terrible tortures. He queried Peter, "Who are those people, and why are they being punished so terribly?" St Peter replied, "Oh, those are Jews who ate pork."
They continued with their journey, wherupon the man spied another group of people, suffering even greater trials, and he again asked St Peter, "Who are these people, and why are they being punished so terribly?" And St. Peter replied, "Oh, those are Catholics, and they ate meat on Fridays."
They continued on their way, and they came across a third group of people, who were suffering even greater tortures. The man was extremely curious, and he asked St. Peter, "Well, who are these unfortunate souls, and what did they do to warrant these horrible sufferings?' "Oh," St. Peter replied, "Those are Episcopalians, and they were caught eating their steak with a salad knife."
I hope this provided you with a welcome break from your esoteric researches into the Hermetic Corpus.
207.237.89.3 (
talk)
15:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC) Allen Roth
For Hermeticism, Alchemy is not the changing of physical lead into physical gold.[15] Rather, one attempts to turn themselves from a base person (symbolized by lead) into an adept master (symbolized by gold). The various stages of chemical distillation and fermentation, among them, are metaphors for the Magnum Opus (Latin for Great Work) performed on the soul.[16]
I am so thoroughly tired of this modern, psychological, new-age reductionist misinterpretation of alchemy. It is just as false as the misinterpretation of alchemy by the hands of modern, scientific materialism and dogma. If anyone looks into the actual history of the ancient alchemists, they will prove to themselves the utter ignorance and falsity of this statement. Horror of horrors, many great alchemists, and not just greedy puffers worked in their labs. The laboratory work is not just merely a metaphor for the internal work. The inner and the outer work are in harmony. It is an investigation of God and Spirit in Nature, not just human nature, as the anthropocentric new agers might proselytize! I will make a commitment to myself to reword this as best as I can, in alignment with actual fact, and not new age, psychological garbage! If anyone contends my position, I would be very interested in their well-informed judgments. Thank you-- 75.155.209.69 ( talk) 00:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, that is much, much better.--
207.81.94.148 (
talk)
19:29, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
The article Hermetism, Hermeticism and other thought systems has been proposed for merger into this article. There is currently a section of the article already dealing with the subject, and the most relevant information can be merged into it. I would personally support such a merger, as having an entirely separate article dealing with the alleged impact of one belief system, which is in several ways difficult to differentiate with Gnosticism, seems to me to be giving undue weight to those particular sources who do make such differentiation. While the interrelationships of religions is important, and there is already an Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion/Interfaith work group to deal with such matters, lumping all this material together into an article which deals primarily with the idea from the viewpoint of what is probably the least significant of the faith traditions mentioned seems counterproductive and possibly POV pushing. I would support such a merger. John Carter ( talk) 20:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
"Hermetism, Hermeticism and other thought systems" is not an arguable title. Perhaps something sensible could be produced under "History of Hermeticism" or similar, organized as a {{ main}} article branching off this one. KV first needs to understand basic Wikipedia rules such as WP:SYN. If you want to discuss the cult of Hermes in classical antiquity (i.e. before Hellenism), you'll need another title. Try Hermes or Ancient Greek religion to begin with. "Hermetism" is used synonymously with "Hermeticism" and refers to the tradition of Late Antiquity ( Hermetica) revived in the Renaissance. Discussion of an older cult is welcome, but will need excellent sources. Esotericist blather about Ancient Egypt isn't going to cut it. dab (𒁳) 06:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I've just moved the comparative article to Hermetism and other religions (that seems to be standard). The article is still awful but at least the title isn't quite so painfully bad. I've also deleted some of the more outstanding claims - that the entire Pentateuch is a Hermetic text, and that Marx's theories were Hermeticism-inspired. I mean, WTF? Moreschi2 ( talk) 14:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I placed a flag on the "Rosicrucianism" section because these comments not only are unsourced but seem virtually impossible to source as they are. Why is the graded system of Rosicrucianism more like the graded system of Freemasonry than the graded system of the American public school system? Besides, Rosicrucianism is older than Masonry by at least a century. Etc etc. Section needs attention. Yonderboy ( talk) 22:29, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I've added a citation for The Rosicrucian Enlightenment (Frances Yates), which documents the publication of the three German pamphlets in the 17th century. This reference does not cover any of the other material in the section in question, however. AdamFunk ( talk) 19:29, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
This is not a direct edit, but something that needs to be discussed by everyone who has been editing this article!
Hermetics is not a static system of beliefs or texts, but is a source of knowledge for students to continue the work of developing the knowledge of Hermetic Science and Philosophy.
The first thing missing from this article is a definition of Hermetics. I define it as follows: "Hermetic Science is the study of human consciousness and how the individual uses their consciousness to understand and to function in their environment." This definition and others should be a topic of serious discussion.
If you have read and studied the texts over the period of time already given in the various parts of this entry you will see that this Science and Philosophy has continued to develop from the time of the first documents to the present day.
Start as far back in the history of the documents as you care to go. For example: "Iamblichus' Exhortation to the Study of Philosophy" is a far better explanation of the basic concepts of Hermetics than any work that precedes it. This improvement in the knowledge and the basic principles and concepts of Hermetics shows a clear line of development all the way from Classical Greece to the present day. A still more recent example is the work of Mary Anne Atwood “A Suggestive Inquiry into the Hermetic Mystery;” originally published anomymously in 1850. It was later reprinted by Isobel de Steiger. However, it is known that the reprint is accurate because an additional copies of the original work are available. I am unsure if any of the editors of this article are even aware of this text or have ever read it. I note that it has not been mentioned anywhere in this article nor do any of the numerous works cited in her work appear in this article. (I have a copy of this book that I scanned and formmated into an e-text and would be happy to pass that to anyone who would like to read it. E-mail to Hermotimus@aol.com.)
It is known that this book found its way into the hands of a number of students of Hermetics who continued to carry on with the work of developing and improving the understanding of Hermetic Science and Philosophy. Among those students are the authors: Waite Arthur Edward (note his Hermetic Museum work); as well as numerous members of the Golden Dawn through the influence of both Waite and de Steiger; Atkinson, William, Walker, who is the likely author or co-author of the Kybalion, which is considered one of the modren texts which defines Hermetics; and Case, Paul Foster, who founded the Builders of the Adytum in 1932, and through its offices over the past 76 years, have taught by means of mail order lessons, what he knew of Hermetics and what he developed in terms of new knowledge on the subject during his lifetime. Hermotimus ( talk) 03:47, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
To put in all the citations needed for this discussion would bring this discussion up to at least 15,000 words. and if the discussion would be later placed in the article it would overshadow everything else in the article. I am willing to take on explaining the process of the development of Hermetics step by step from its first known documents to the modern day, citing each document and citing the changes from one document to its predeccor, but to do so would require a full length book and I am sure that this does not belong in wikipedia.
As far as the definition of Hermetics, I will dig out the needed citations. I know of at least 12 books that contain solid references to that definition and will post it here for further discussion, But, this will take me a couple of weeks to sort through all of the material. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hermotimus ( talk • contribs) 13:48, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I would like to break this into two separate topics. Here to continue the modern history of Hermetics and a new topic on the Definition of Hermetics Hermotimus ( talk) 22:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
"Simply stated, Hermetism, or its synonym Alchemy, was in its primary intention and office the philosophic and exact science of the regeneration of the human soul from its present sense-immersed state into the perfection and nobility of that divine condition in which it was originally created. Secondarily and incidentally, as will presently appear, it carried with it a knowledge of the way in which the life-essence of things belonging to the subhuman kingdoms - the metallic genera in particular and, correspondingly, be intensified and raised to a nobler form than that in which it exists in its present natural state. It is to this secondary aspect only that the popular mind turns when Alchemy is mentioned, unaware of the subject's larger and primary intention, and it is desirable, therefore, to treat of the science here first from the larger aspect, and subsequently from its lesser and subsidiary one." A SUGGESTIVE INQUIRY INTO HERMETIC PHILOSOPHY AND ALCHEMY by Mary Anne Atwood (1850)(reissue with intro by de Steiger) LONDON: J. M. WATKINS, 21 Cecil Court, W.C. pg 26 Hermotimus ( talk) 23:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
It seems this definitions / Etimology needed some improvement and the talk page even has more information that need to be reincorproated IMHO for only correct citations were needed and article can be well expanded. Atlantisfoundation ( talk) 15:26, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
I removed this statement: "This last is an example of how Hermes Trismegistus was adopted by Christianity to serve its own particular purposes." The example, which I left in, was sourced and it stated: "Another explanation, in the Suda (10th century), is that "He was called Trismegistos on account of his praise of the trinity, saying there is one divine nature in the trinity.""
So the statement should be removed or properly sourced by reliable scholarship. Sweetmoose6 ( talk) 21:20, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I realize that wiki rules dictate that all entries are capitalized, but the author Jan Vijg in his/her book " Aging of the Genome" uses the term un-capitalized. re: Can modern science succeed where hermeticism failed?
The wiktionary has no entry and so, I wonder if capitalization is a mistake or that some kind of notation should be applied in the definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.174.73.124 ( talk) 02:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Didn't know where else to put this, so here goes. Isn't it said somewhere that the reason HT possesses three parts of the wisdom is because he is actually a pseudonym of three composite authors, or traditions, namely those of Europe, Asia and Egypt? Can't cite a source, does anyone else know of this?
This is speculative but perhaps a better interpretation of three parts of the wisdom could represent the development of Hermetism from it's Hellenic roots. The three parts being the civic religion, the mystery religions and philosophy. Hermetism subsumes and completes all three. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.137.36.230 ( talk) 10:08, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Nuttyskin ( talk) 18:17, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm generally well-read and considered fairly intelligent, as well, one of my interests is Philosophy. So it was with some eagerness that I clicked the Hermeticism link in another article (Paracelsus) looking to learn a little something more. Well, from the intro paragraph on, I simply can not decipher anything that this article is trying saying. In that regard, all your work here is useless. What's the point of writing in a way that only those who already understand can get anything from it? Clearly you put a lot of effort into this article. Pls take that passion and re-write at least the intro paragraph so that a reasonably informed lay person can understand something about Hermeticism.
Ronewolf ( talk) 20:06, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
The following insert is being placed into the article. There is no references and the said user has inserted statements trying to connect an "Occult" link to the Christian Message Bible. I will oppose until a real source is found. Good luck in finding it.
In the Message Bible translation, created by Eugene Peterson, the well known sentence in the Lord's prayer translated from New Testament Greek manuscripts usually as, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven", is rendered "Do what's best — as above, so below."
Basileias ( talk) 02:41, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
Hello Basileias, I have not stated that there is a link between The Message Bible and the occult. I have simply inserted a piece of factual relevant information into the Wikipedia entry on the expression "As above; so below". Had I asserted that the Message Bible was occultic I would have needed a reference. However, the only reference required for my entry is one linking the expression "As above so below" to The Message Bible for Matt 6:10. In the original Greek of Matt 6:10 the words for "heaven" and "earth" and God's "will" occur. Eugene Petersen did not translate any of these words but made the fascinating choice of what is well known as an occult expression and translated "Your will be done on earth as in heaven" as simply "As above, so below". In a best selling Bible translation this fact is not insignificant and I suggest it deserves a mention in Wikipedia. I have no particular preference as to where it appears. You did not like it on the Message Bible page, so I moved it to this article here. This fact about the Message Bible is somewhat embarrassing I know. Either Eugene Petersen, a man of letters, is ignorant about this well known occult expression - which makes it very strange that he would just "invent" it (since the Greek behind it would not throw up this rendering) - or he is aware of it, which makes its insertion even stranger. I am not charging him or his translation with anything. I am stating a curious and fascinating fact in an encyclopedia. I will hold off on editing in anticipation of your response Journalist492 ( talk) 20:33, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
This article (or at least its introduction) fails to answer that question. The intro says hermeticism is a set of beliefs, but it doesn't say anything about what those beliefs are. Can someone please fix that? 46.194.129.179 ( talk) 13:54, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Hermeticism is a set of beliefs and practices whose aim is the influencing of the world through contact with the heavenly forces. It claims descent from a prisca theologica, an original untainted, pure set of doctrines, secretive, which allegedly were compiled in ancient times, in Egypt, and whose undiluted purity guarantees their veracity and efficacy. Much of the importance of Hermeticism is due to its connection with the devlopment of science in the Renaissance and 17th century, because the prominence given to the idea of influencing or controlling nature, led many of the newe scientists to look to magic and its allied arts (astrology, etc.) in celebrating the idea of experiment--of putting Nature "to the test." Consequently, it is the practical aspect of the Hermetic writings that attracted attention after the Renaissance. Isaac Newton placed great faith in this idea of a "pure tradition," an unadulterated pure ancient doctrine which he studied vigorously, attempting (believe it or not) to aid in his understanding of the physical world. I hope this helps. 207.237.89.3 ( talk) 15:47, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Allen Roth
What's with the opening paragraph? I do not see any references or sources for most of the information. To be honest, it looks to me like someone giving their own interpretation of what Hermeticism is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.190.245.39 ( talk) 01:48, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
"Much of the importance of Hermeticism arises from its connection with the development of science during the time from 1300 to 1600 A.D. ..."
The points of this entire paragraph clearly derive from the work of Frances Yates, specifically Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition.
This book was controversial within the history of science, claiming that Renaissance occultism, specifically magic, was influential over the development of science in ways not previously appreciated. The general response by historians seems to have acknowledged the general point in a moderate way, but Yates' works are not considered sound scholarship. I think the claim, that this is where much of Hermeticism's importance derives from, is too strong. Hermeticism specifically is not generally acknowledged by historians of science as being an especially significant influence.
I think the entire paragraph should properly be deleted. If it must remain, it should be prefaced by saying that it is a statement of the claims of Frances Yates (and possibly that those claims aren't taken especially seriously).
I contend that falsely attributed is not a suitable replacement for pseudepigraphical. False is derived from fallō (“deceive”), which implies intentional wrong doing to gain advantage. The intention when ascribing pseudepigraphical writings to Hermes was not to deceive, but rather to indicate that, at it's most basic reduction, Thoth was the god of writing. So rather than having an intention to deceive, its actual purpose was to remind the reader of the divine derivation of knowledge. Plus by removing it we are curtailing opportunities for people to learn new words, which is bogus. Morgan Leigh | Talk 09:10, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
The end of the first paragraph states, "..true theology exists which is present in all religions and was given by God to man in antiquity."
My understanding is that Hermeticists believe that "God" may or may not be a self-conscience entity. However, by using the term "God" seems to exclude the belief that this force could be a non-conscience entity. Am I correct? If so, is there another term that could be used instead of "God". Perhaps there should be a section on the Hermetic idea of what "God" is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.251.145.104 ( talk) 04:03, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
@ Diannaa: have a look at this edit, and then Google for the sentence [ https://www.google.nl/search?q=who+argued+that+Casaubon%27s+allegation+of+forgery&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=CdMYV7qvMsaXsgGL6JyoCA "who argued that Casaubon's allegation of forgery". Lulu.com seems to be doing good business with Wiki-texts. The info in question comes from Ralph Cudworth, The True Intellectual System of the Universe. First American Edition by Thomas Birch, 1837 ( Hermes Trismegistus, Hermetica). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:24, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
The user notes in his edit summaries that he copy-pasted from Hermes Trismegistus and Hermetica. — Diannaa ( talk) 13:33, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
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In the second-to-last paragraph in the section Hermeticism#Renaissance is the following sentence:
I'd like to put an English translation of the Latin terms in parentheses after each one, but my knowledge of Latin is limited. When I used Google translate, I got "boundary at which" for "terminus ad quem" and "where" for "quo". While those may be accurate translations, I don't think they make enough sense for the reader who does not know Latin because they are too close in meaning. This sentence must be understood in context, and, in particular, in relation to the sentence that precedes it. Besides "boundary", perhaps "terminus" could be understood as meaning "ending," or "end point". Perhaps an editor who knows Latin could help with coming up with precise, nuanced translations for these two terms that would make sense in relation to the previous sentence and make clear what the important difference is between the two terms. – Corinne ( talk) 15:50, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Many writers, including Lactantius, Cyprian of Carthage,[8] Augustine of Hippo,[9] Marsilio Ficino, Giovanni Pico della Mirandola, Giordano Bruno, Tommaso Campanella, Sir Thomas Browne, and Ralph Waldo Emerson, considered Hermes Trismegistus to be a wise pagan prophet who foresaw the coming of Christianity.[10][11]
Where's Newton? People are very uncomfortable WRT to his involvement in subjects such as this. 108.200.234.93 ( talk) 17:17, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
Hermetism refers specifically to the philosophy of the Hermetic Corpus, whereas Hermeticism encompasses all of the Hermetic Sciences (The Way of Hermes, Inner Traditions International, 2000, Pg. 9):
This manuscript contained the nucleus of the Corpus Hermeticum, also falsely called Pimander, after the first treatise, Poimandres. Along with some astrological and alchemical works, also named after Hermes, these tracts became the fundamental writings of the Renaissance, together called Hermeticism, whereas the doctrine of the Corpus Hermeticum is called hermetism.
I have removed the reference to Augustine in the introduction. Unlike Cyprian, Lactantius and most Renaissance hermeticists, Augustine of Hippo did not believe Hermes to be a wise prophet. In City of God, VIII.23-4, he characterises Hermes as being inspired by demons rather than the Holy Spirit and replacing an old form of idolatry by a new one, even though, inspired by demons, he would mourn a future abolition of this very system. For a secondary source, this view is expressed in the very beginning of Frances A. Yates's "Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition", specifically in the pages 9-11 of Routledge's 1964 edition. Leefeni aures audiendi audiat 00:55, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I moved the common sense of "hermetic" and "hermeticism" (#2) to the disamb page. If that sense is not explained there, the reader will have no way of guessing which article to read. Jorge Stolfi 23:09, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
As I see the article it links to, he was involved in the occult and mysticism, but nothing says he was a Hermetic. I'm mainly leaving this here as a note to check up on that, and delete the link if found out otherwise. Feel free to hand me the proof.
KV( Talk) 17:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC) KV 18:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Please add in your sources when possible when you add in information. I would like to make this a featured article, and we need everything cited for that.
KV 17:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
After we have put as much information as we can, from our current contributors, and have this fully cited, I intend to convert the harvard notation to endnotes to increase readability. It is too difficult to do mess with numbering before we have a working version. I felt that I should say this so no one is taken by surprise.
KV 19:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
About the Operations, the Puritans called astrology the Operation of the Moon. I'm not entirely sure if that would actually be the Hermetic Operation of astrology, which is why I haven't edited it. It does seem plausible and will leave that up to KV here, since it is a bit of an assumption and I only ran across it on a site about the Puritan view of astrology.
I do find the article a good read and I will see if I can find the other operations. If I do I will post back here with the information.
Stratus Fireborne 11:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
KV 18:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I seriouisly hope that the "Operation of the Earth" is not Theurgy. As far as I know, Theurgy is magic concerning God, in the Judeo/Christian scense. Basing it on that, operation of the earth would be wrong, since it would be paganistic at best. Unless you can conclude that God is nature itself, and how this relates to Theurgy, as well as other Theurgy texts on magic.
I realized after seriously looking at the section, that much of the section has nothing to do with magic and repeats things said elsewhere. This has to be (by me or others) be weeded out, the nonrepeated information that doesn't belong there moved, and rewritten.
KV 19:17, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm also thinking that we might want to change the Thoth pic, amongst searching in Wikimedia commons...... under HERMES.... I found the attached image. It seems to be easier to see, but smaller. Does anyone have an opinion on this?
KV 06:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
First, your "spelling" change was not a valid change, there is both Hermetism and its offshoot Hermeticism. Then you removed cited information without reason, such "speculation" is done by experts in the field, and so is perfectly valid. Then you simply deleted a large block of text, which though I may agree wasn't worded perfectly was also changed on me once before. We can change the wording..... but before you go make any other major changes that aren't additions, but rather radically changing already existing text...... how about if we discuss it here first.
KV 15:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The past doesnt' change, and neither did you show any more recent discoveries that refute them. And the Corpus Hermeticum is dealt very specifically in the article, and the range of dates, based on the Greek linguistic style, push from 500 BCE to 200 CE, not necessarily the 1st century CE. Of course, the earliest version we have found of the Corpus Hermeticum dates to that era, but if we listen to prized Egyptologist E.A. Wallis Budge, who is still seen as such despite his death nearly a century ago, just because the earliest text you found dates to that era, it doesnt' mean that it is the earliest text that existed. There is no surprise that the linguistic style may date to that era if it was translated from Egyptian to Greek at that period. Imagine someone dating the New King James Version Bible, based on linguistics, and by not having any other versions of the Bible, dating the creation of the Bible in the 1970's or 80's.
He was part of part of the Order of Freemasons which he implies though seemingly for reasons of secrecy surrounding the order in which he achieved the honorary degree of 33rd, has come from the Egyptian Mystery schools, and which taught Hermeticism. The ideas in the Corpus Hermeticism surely come from Ancient Egypt, and not Greece, as the translators of the translation I keep citing, have stated. It is certainly likely that the Corpus Hermeticum is quite ancient, despite the greek translation.
Adding evidence that is contrary to what I have said will certainly bring this article closer to NPOV, but what you had changed didn't only add more on that POV (uncited of course) but made it more POV, by eliminating the POV of Hall and the Three Initiates, which was already balanced out somewhat. You add information to bring about NPOV, not delete it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tom harrison ( talk • contribs) .
In my recent editting of the History section, and pulling it out into it's own section...... I have removed some of the text that you didn't like, and currently it is only found in Hermetism currently. We still need expansion on the History section, and removing the text that is unneeded elsewhere now that it's in the History section. When I originally started the History section I struggled to find out about Hermetism, and broke through in my 40th or so hour of research, in finding mention to it in Hall's book. So, I traced Hermeticism back to Ancient Egypt rather than Hermetism. I'm unsure if there should be a section on Hermes Trismegistus specifically in this article, where we expand on him, or if we should simply leave that to the Hermes Trismegistus article, which is where I am leaning. Hopefully you're a bit happier with the current version.
KV 19:30, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
The subtitle in the first picture uses the very general and convoluted designation of "African" for the hypothetical features of an Egyptian person, contrasting it with Caucasian features. Though the point is well taken, the emphasis seems to be rather misplaced. African is not a phenotype, however, the common educated populace understands its connotation as lying in the proximity of Negroid. To use this designation for an Egyptian is rather misleading. Consideration of the majority scholarly opinion based on the convergence of the various fields of Genetics, Anthropology, and Archeology, as well as the detailed visual aid of the non-Pharaonic Egyptian sculptures, leads us to a different conclusion. Nubian presence can be seen--in sculptures--but the distinct features seem to be emphesized. Yet, ancient traditions refer to peoples more commonly associated with the "Caucasian" features you referred to as having much population and culture exchange with Egypt--modern Archeology seems to claim that these movements were actually more prominent than would have been thought from the sources alone. Egyptian myths reflect interaction with Syrian kings. The use of cedar would suggests interaction with the peoples of Lebanon, perhaps Phoenicians. Syrian and Near Eastern records show a great and immediate awareness of Egypt and its processes. Greek tragedies are set in Thebes. Greek architecture can be analyzed as in continuum with Egyptian. And, let us not forget the various Biblical references to migrations into and out of Egypt by such non-African peoples.
While I am fully aware of the concern that might arise--that everything African and external to the European heritage tends to be "exotified" or "orientalized"--it seems more appropriate to accuse the ancient Egyptians and their self-conceived setting of this than to defend them from it. But what was their self-conceived setting? What did they identify as "us"? Who did they conceive of as a credible participants in their international arena--whether they be enemies or allies? Who, on the other hand, was devalued in their eyes to the extent that they were considered unworthy of consideration or condenscion from a civilized nation--especially one such as themselves?
Any answer to all these questions is is complex, difficult, and sure to induce well-meaning academic debate. However, it seems to be that the ancient sense of civilization (in reference to Egypt's self-classification) revolved around the Mediteranean basin most prominently, though perhaps not exclusively. The sense of identity was different throughout ancient and classical times. While an ancient Greek might have mourned his child's marraige to a "Northern Barbarian", the average Victorian may have seen marriage to "some Arab" of average or low standing as undesirable. However, no "European" and especially not one from the British isles, would have considering treating Augustine as some sort of foreign, exotified breed of North African. This is not to exclude the peculiar insularities and claims to a peculiar glory of every nation, Babylonians, Greeks, and Egyptians alike. However, it is worth recognizing that the paradigm of civilization and the archetypal conception of self to which Egypt seems to have subscribed in the ancient times (and anthropological studies of North Africa today will reveal similar trends, though no evidence can be drawn from this due to possible confounding factors such as the interaction of divergeant civilizations) was the Mediteranean. It would be wrong to ignore Egypt's overwhelming ethnic and civilizational heritage as a contributing and receptive member of the conception of the ancient mediteranean civilization.
Just from perusing this page, I'd like to make a couple of observations. First, it would be a lot easier for a newcomer to the discussion to figure out the conversation if everyone would take the time to sign their posts. This is just one of the suggestions for good wikipedia etiquette. Next, when it comes to dating things, I had always thought that the established date of the oldest fragment meant that the text in question was at least that old. The oldest fragment of something that we have might be the oldest there is, or might just be the oldest fragment that survived, or that we have found so far. It seems reasonable to say something like "the oldest known fragment has been dated to year X, but some (scholars/philosophers/whoever) suspect it may be a (a bit/much) older, perhaps as old as year Y. Citations, and reasons for thinking it older could then follow. Wesley \
Regarding whether Thoth or anyone else was a god or a man, the obvious thing to do is to list who thought he was what, and when. If the earliest known time anyone suggested he was human was the 19th century, then go ahead and say whatever 19th century writers suggested he was human, but also say this is the first documented time this was suggested. Might have been suggested earlier of course, but if we don't have evidence of it, it's just speculation, right? Or if more than that, list reasons for thinking it's more than speculation. (shrug). Wesley 17:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Someone I had look at this argument posted on my user page.... User talk:King_Vegita#Thank_you_for_calling_me_in_on_Hermes_Tris
I also had this comment placed under User talk:King_Vegita#Hermeticism which made it hard for me to see at first: "For what it's worth, I think that the article on Hermes Trismegistus is the proper place for mentioning any theories about the figure being based on a real person. It is quite peripheral to the main subject of Hermeticism. Myopic Bookworm 12:44, 2 March 2006 (UTC)"
So, what I have gathered from others so far is:
A) we need more statements to follow the theory B) we should probably put a blanket statement in this and fix up Hermes Trismegistus.
Perhaps that is best, but Hermes Trismegistus still needs a lot of work yet. I'll try to do something about it soon.
All who are interested are asked to join.
Would an editor familiar with this particular religion please give a quick synopsis of the view of Hermeticism on the origin belief page? Thanks! -- ScienceApologist 20:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
The text below one of the illustrations say: "However, if Hermes was from Ancient Egypt, he is unlikely to be Caucasian." But the ancient egyptians, like the current ones, were mainly caucasians so this POV captions should be moderated.
In the article on Hermeticism, under the section "Enter the Corpus Hermeticum", the statement is made : " ... in 391 CE when the Romans burnt the library down." Later, under "Religious and Philosophical Texts" this is repeated: "...in 391 CE when the Romans burnt down the Library of Alexandria." This is misleading. The riots in 391 were specifically 'Christian vs. Pagan' in nature, instigated by Bishop Theophilus. He and others may have thought of themselves as 'Roman' citizens, acting with the blessing of the Emperor in Constantinople, but from our point of view today, the phrase should be " .. in 391 when Christians looted/burned the Library ..." Jrathe 17:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
In some articles, especially Hermetica, it is Poemandres. Here it is Poimandres. So??-- Connection 19:49, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I intend on reinserting the text:
"This is very similar to what one would come up with if they conjoined the quantum mechanics principles of wave-particle duality and nonlocality. Everything being (when not observed for location) a wave and in the same place, we have a wave without dimensions, best described as a vibration" once I have citations, and can reword it to be more NPOV.
KV( Talk) 16:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
File:Standing wave.JPG Will this do for an illustration? Byrgenwulf 07:43, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I found this somewhere in the lead/intro. It strike me as OR and weasel words are being used. It can be added back in once sources are found, and weasel words are dropped. SynergeticMaggot 16:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Removed more. Uncited, seemingly POV or OR, plus there is an issue of section title wording (possible perversion by Christianity, not sure? OR). SynergeticMaggot 16:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I think I fact tagged this a long time ago. Same as the rest, its more like speculation and has no citation. It can be readded in, once this is found and done. SynergeticMaggot 16:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The presumed Egyptian origin of the Hermetica of Bruno and Ficini has been roundly refuted and disproven yet mention of it still abounds, possibly due to the predeliction of such in occult groups. If Hermes Trismagistos was a syncretistic deity comprising Hermes and Thoth his name would be 'Hermes-Thoth' just as Zeus-Ammon was a syncretism of Zeus and Amon. At best Hermes assimilated Thoth but certainly not he reverse. In any case Thoth appears as the son of Hermes and Trismagistos doesn't even feature as anything like a deity in the actual text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.248.192 ( talk) 13:00, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
Deleted as Factually incorrect;
Hellenistic Egyptian who is the representation of the conflation of the Egyptian god Thoth with the Greek Hermes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.137.36.230 ( talk) 12:18, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
The following quoted section has been reworked and the obscurantism deleted. All Gnostic religions are monotheistic in a unitarian and deistic understanding of the term.
"In Hermeticism, the Supreme Deity is referred to variously as God, the All, or the One. The Absolute is the central focus of Hermeticism, and therefore it is difficult to assign it a position among traditional theistic religions, or along the monotheistic–polytheistic spectrum.
Hermeticism transcends both monotheism and polytheism, as well as deism and pantheism. Its philosophy teaches that there is a transcendent God, or Absolute, in which we and the entire universe participate. It also subscribes to the idea that other beings, such as gods, angels and elementals, exist within the universe." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.197 ( talk) 13:24, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
I recall passages from the fifth text of the Corpus Hermeticum that speak of God in very pantheistic and/or transtheistic senses. I could just as easily quote those passages and say that Hermeticism or Hermetism is profoundly pantheistic or transtheistic. We must remember that neither Gnosticism nor Hermeticism were consistent schools of thought. The varied Gnostic and Hermetic texts had varying authors not necessarily agreeing with each other. We must also remember that this article will be read by those not familiar with a "unitarian and deistic understanding" of monotheism; what that is, I must admit to not knowing. I must bluntly state that I believe the removed passages from the article were more appropriate. I must contend this change. -- 75.190.245.39 ( talk) 05:48, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
"I recall passages from the fifth text of the Corpus Hermeticum that speak of God in very pantheistic and/or transtheistic senses." Theres no pantheism in the Hermetica, God is absolutely transcendent. The Fifth Book "Though Unmanifest God Is Most Manifest" teaches that God is manifest by virtue of his creation of the cosmos and not as the universe istelf. As such its an affirmation of deism and a complete rejection of pantheism.
____________
Doubtless that there are schools of Hermetic thought in which God is understood as transcendent and no more; doubtless also is that pantheism is explicitly shown in some Hermetic texts (not only in the fifth text of the CH). To list a few pantheistic\panentheistic expressions:
"Naught is there which he is not. For all are He and He is all." CH V.10
"For that Thou art whatever I may be; Thou art whatever I may do; Thou art whatever I may speak." CH V.11
"And in the All is naught that is not God. Wherefore nor <i.e., neither> size, nor space, nor quality, nor form, nor time, surroundeth God; for He is All, and All surroundeth all, and permeateth all." CH XII.23
Explicitly read, these are expressing dynamic pantheism\panentheism. Id est, immanence is expressed. That the Hermetica express the idea that God can be seen through the cosmos as its creator is not rejected.
What is to be said is that it must be understood that Hermeticism is not a monolithic and coherent school of thought, which I believe is what you are implying. The Hermetica are not a coherent whole, but much like the Bible, is a collection of various texts authored by various authors; eclecticism and incoherence are accepted features of the Hermetica . One will find different and contradictory ideas expressed: Transcendence, Immanence, Evil Cosmos, Good Cosmos, Nous is God, God is not Nous, et cetera. -- 174.110.214.156 ( talk) 15:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
"To list a few pantheistic\panentheistic expressions:" None of those can be said to be anything more than expressing God's omnipresence, substantial pantheism is expllicitly ruled out be the underlying concept of Gods transcendence. In the Hermetica God is absolutely transcendent not identical with the cosmos, that cannot be reconciled with pantheism in any way ahape or form.
You are obscurring the plain reading with modern relativism and forcing a pantheist reading where one really doessn't fit.
"That the Hermetica express the idea that God can be seen through the cosmos as its creator is not rejected."
Thats
Deism not pantheism and yes thats fine, God is seen through his works not because he actually is the cosmos, as in pantheism. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
62.25.109.197 (
talk)
08:04, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
I must disagree. There is no fine line between omnipresence and "omnibeing." The quoted passages and more explicitly read that God is "omnibeing," not omnipresent. That the Hermetica express God as being transcendent is not rejected; however, they also express God as being immanent. That there is contradiction and incoherence to be found in the Hermetica is accepted and well-established. Different schools of thought can be found in the Hermetica and Hermeticism: This is also well-established.
The idea that the observation of the natural world points to a creator deity alone is not deism. This is a fundamental principle and key feature in deism, but it naturally encompasses more ideas than such, such as deity's non-interference and the rejection of special revelation. -- 174.110.214.156 ( talk) 15:18, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
M: Of course there is and thats a perfect example of your obscurantism!
"God alone, unmanifest, who hath made all things by His Will?" CORPUS HERMETICUM V. (VI.) Thats buries pantheism for good, any assertion of pantheism can be measured against it.
M: God certainly doesnt intervene in nature, according to the Hermetica. Theres no divine incarnation therefore revelation is not intervention, its a case of illumination.
"God is All" is not the same as "God is all-present." The former is identifying God while the latter is locating God. Both expressions are found in the Hermetica. The crux is that it must be expressed that there are different schools of thought as well as inconsistency and incoherence to be found in the Hermetica and in Hermeticism: Id est, there is no single Hermetic philosophy or school of thought. Saying otherwise would be contradictory to scholarly opinion and analysis of the Hermetica and of Hermeticism, as well as explicit readings of the Hermetic texts. --
174.110.214.156 (
talk)
15:13, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
In my opinion, the Philosophy section is in need of improvement. It does not express the diversity that is to be found in Hermetic thought. --
174.110.214.156 (
talk)
15:25, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
M: The philosophy section needs cleaning up and not obscurring further.
I think the philosophy section is perhaps taking too much liberty in assuming the character of God in Hermeticism in general and the Hermetic texts in particular, at least in the opening paragraph. There appears to be more subjective interpretation than objective information. For example, "Hermetism is therefore profoundly monotheistic although in a deistic and unitarian understanding of the term." What does this even mean, and can anything in the opening paragraph be supported outside of an ostensibly subjective interpretation of a single passage from a single text of the body of Hermetic literature? 2606:A000:1504:29C:653:8C77:AC0A:11A2 ( talk) 04:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
2606:A000:1504:29C:653:8C77:AC0A:11A2 ( talk) 04:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
As in Hermetism, I propose that all information that comes from Manly P. Hall's works be removed unless it is verified by a reputable third party. - 999 ( Talk) 16:38, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
WikiProject Ancient Egypt (or KV) keeps trying to add this post-Egyptian subject to their project. Please respond as to whether you support or oppose this. Please make a decision below, and discuss in the discussion section.
This is a tricky one as many Hermeticists and Occultists believe that although the texts of the Hermetica are definitely post Ancient Egypt the wisdom is not. The theory goes that the substance of the Hermetica dates back to ancient Pharaonic Egyptian religious ideas. Some commentators claim that similar concepts and images can be found in Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs. I for one have no idea. We know the Hermetica was written in Greek but we also know that there was a lot of intellectual/spiritual traffic between Ancient Greece and Egypt. Pythagoras was supposed to have spent 22 years in Egypt learning his theories. I leave it to the experts - if there are such - to decide. :-) ThePeg 17:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
WP:V states:
It is not for you to decide whether or not he is correct. He is a prominent figure, prominent enough that you have a view on him, which WP:NPOV states:
You need to find something to balance it out if you find him in any way wrong. You cannot simply go through indiscriminately deleting views because you do not like Manly P. Hall.
I'm not sure why this paragraph is in here. I thought that the Corpus Hermeticum was being discussed, not the Book of the Dead. Does Budge mention the Corpus Hermeticum at all? If not, this simply appears to be a speculative attempt to make the C.H. seem older than it is...based on speculation about a completely different book. No thanks, that's not encyclopedic. — Hanuman Das 10:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
The Church has not always been opposed to Hermeticism has it? The article says it has. The Wikipedia has an image of Hermes on a mosaic floor in Sienna Cathedral which suggests integration rather than opposition. The Renaissance was hugely influenced by Hermetic reading. People like Pico, Ficino and many artists and religious figures of their day saw Hermes' words as confirming the message of Christianity. Most Renaissance religious art was inspired by Hermetic ideas as much as Scripture. Milton read and admired and lifted imagery from Hermes. It would be useful to know when the Church cracked down on the Hermetica. Could someone elaborate on this? I suppose one of the fascinating things about the Hermetica is that although it echoes or presages vast amounts of Christian and Judaic ideas and imagery it was never turned into a religion and thus has no dogma attached to it. This means it can be read without prejudice. I'm reading it now and find it extraordinary. One element no-one has talked about is how close to Quantum Theory it is. It is perhaps no surprise that the Coat Of Arms of nuclear scientist Ernest Rutherford has Hermes on it! ThePeg 17:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
At one time most scholars thought that the Hermetica was written by early members of the Christian cult. There are a lot of similarities between ideas expressed in the Hermetica, and ideas expressed by Gnostic Christians. I don't think it was until Coptic versions of the Hermetic texts started to appear, suggesting that they might have pre-dated Christianity, that this idea was even seriously challenged. I'm no scholar, but my studies of the subject lead me to think that early Christianity was a polyglot of different ideas and belief systems-- and there is no reason to think that Hermeticism was singled out until about the same time that the Gnostics were suppressed by Rome. Light lvx 18:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)light_lvx
Can anybody start a stub article on Magical idealism? Thanks. -- 201.51.221.66 15:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I am a devout hermeticist and if I where to inform my friend that I was a hermeticist and they tried to learn more about it by going to this article. I don't think they would even get the slightest idea of what hermeticism is. The main problem I see in this article is that it tries to include and treat material originated in the last few hundreds of years as the same as tracible ancient documents. Lets face it, The corpus hermeticum can be traced thousands of years ago. The Kybalion can not. Trying to suggest that the early hermetic authors believed in the theories in the Kybalion before the Kybalion was published you would have to accept that the early hermetic authors somehow got ahold of this document without public knowledge. The kybalion was published in 1912. Which means that unless this is a mass conspiracy. All hermetic authors before 1912 has no knowledge of the kybalion. Using the Kybalion as a source for the majority of this article without specifying which theories come from which document is needless and confusing. Thusly, I will try to rewrite this article, I will outline which document expresses which theories by quoting the document and expounding it by sourcing the interpretations and I will try to keep as much of the objective information already provided in this article as much intact as possible. This will be quite a project for me, so it will take some time and please express any problems you may have with this and I will try to be as complient as possible. JaynusofSinope 13:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
As a Hermetist I wholeheartedly agree with JaynusofSinope above and would like it on record here that genuine Hermetists wouldnt go anywhere near the Kybalion, Kabbalah or Rosicrucianism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.197 ( talk) 08:33, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
"These beliefs have influenced magic traditions and further, the impact of serving as a set of religious beliefs."
This doesn't make sense. What is "These beliefs have influenced... the impact of serving as a set of beliefs" supposed to mean? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aussietiger ( talk • contribs) 05:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
haha. that bot is fast. realised i forgot to sign, tried to edit to sign, couldn't 'cause the bot was editing it already. aussietiger 05:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I can explain the first part - Hermeticism was a massive influence on the Renaissance and the idea of the Magus as something to aspire to. Champions of Hermeticism included Pico, Ficino, Bruno and a host of others all of whom influenced the development of European culture through their spreading of Hermetic ideas (Leonardo, Michelangelo, Marlowe, Dee, Shakespeare etc all read their work). Some of the non-philosophical elements of the Hermetica include Astrology, the conjuring of spirits into statues and the hierarchy of the universe. Along with Kaballah, the Hermetica set a lot of people off on the search for how one could use the forces of the universe magically - in this sense I mean the word literally ie not tricks but the manipulation of reality, the conjuring of angels and demons (Dee did a lot of this, or believed he did), healing illnesses, achieving immortality etc. Practitioners such as Crowley and the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn all persued this course.
The second half of the sentence doesn't make any sense. Looks like a bit of grammatical error to me. ThePeg 11:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Maybe you could edit it so it makes sense. aussietiger 13:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Which bit? The first bit? I think it makes sense. I can't edit the second bit as I don't know what it should mean. ThePeg 21:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The intro of an article is supposed to function as an abstract, but this introduction only vaguely talks about beliefs and philosophy, and doesn't go into detail about what they are. Hermeticism seems to be distillable into key concepts, and yet the article does not do this at all. If it does, it's so buried in unclear writing that it is indistinguishable. Could someone who knows something about this rewrite the intro so it works? MSJapan 05:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The comment about the Sabians/Sabeans is not quite true. What happened was there was a community of people the Muslims encountered who practised Hermeticism as their religion. When they were told that because they were not mentioned in the Koran as one of the acceptable religions (Judiasm, Christianity, Islam) they were given a period of time to decide what to do - convert or die. They paid an Islamic Scholar a great deal of money for advice. He scoured the Koran and found a reference to a people known as the Sabeans who were also deemed acceptable and advised them to name themselves that. This they did, so when the authorities returned they let them live. The source for this story I found in the book Hermetica: the Lost Wisdom of the Pharoahs. ThePeg 21:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The "medieval rendering" at the top of the page is by Jean-Jacques Boissard, from De Divinatione et Magicis Praestigiis (1605). I wasn't sure how much (if any) of that should go into the caption, but probably at least a link to the artist is appropriate? Strumphs 15:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I have suggested that the As Above, So Below article be merged into this one. There is very little in that article that is not already covered here (other than some examples of rock music lyrics that make use of the term), so there is not much to merge. I simply see no reason for such a short article on a concept that is inseperable from Hermeticism, and which is already covered fairly well here. --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 19:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Any further comment on this matter? It has been more than a month now since I suggested the merger. If there is no further comment, I will go ahead. --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 23:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
We recently had a brief edit flurry, with one editor replacing all dates with "AD/BC" dating... and another editor reverting back to the "CE/BCE" designation. I don't think the dating system has actually been discussed ... so it may be a good idea to get a record of consensus on file in case this becomes an issue. I approve of using CE. Since the article establishes that Hermeticism has non-Christian elements to it, and can even be thought of as a non-Christian religion, I think it is appropriate to use a non-Christian dating system. I am sure there are other reasons. Please express them for the record. Blueboar 14:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
An Episcopalian died and went to Heaven. As St. Peter was escorting him around his new surroundings, he came across a group of people who were suffering terrible tortures. He queried Peter, "Who are those people, and why are they being punished so terribly?" St Peter replied, "Oh, those are Jews who ate pork."
They continued with their journey, wherupon the man spied another group of people, suffering even greater trials, and he again asked St Peter, "Who are these people, and why are they being punished so terribly?" And St. Peter replied, "Oh, those are Catholics, and they ate meat on Fridays."
They continued on their way, and they came across a third group of people, who were suffering even greater tortures. The man was extremely curious, and he asked St. Peter, "Well, who are these unfortunate souls, and what did they do to warrant these horrible sufferings?' "Oh," St. Peter replied, "Those are Episcopalians, and they were caught eating their steak with a salad knife."
I hope this provided you with a welcome break from your esoteric researches into the Hermetic Corpus.
207.237.89.3 (
talk)
15:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC) Allen Roth
For Hermeticism, Alchemy is not the changing of physical lead into physical gold.[15] Rather, one attempts to turn themselves from a base person (symbolized by lead) into an adept master (symbolized by gold). The various stages of chemical distillation and fermentation, among them, are metaphors for the Magnum Opus (Latin for Great Work) performed on the soul.[16]
I am so thoroughly tired of this modern, psychological, new-age reductionist misinterpretation of alchemy. It is just as false as the misinterpretation of alchemy by the hands of modern, scientific materialism and dogma. If anyone looks into the actual history of the ancient alchemists, they will prove to themselves the utter ignorance and falsity of this statement. Horror of horrors, many great alchemists, and not just greedy puffers worked in their labs. The laboratory work is not just merely a metaphor for the internal work. The inner and the outer work are in harmony. It is an investigation of God and Spirit in Nature, not just human nature, as the anthropocentric new agers might proselytize! I will make a commitment to myself to reword this as best as I can, in alignment with actual fact, and not new age, psychological garbage! If anyone contends my position, I would be very interested in their well-informed judgments. Thank you-- 75.155.209.69 ( talk) 00:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, that is much, much better.--
207.81.94.148 (
talk)
19:29, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
The article Hermetism, Hermeticism and other thought systems has been proposed for merger into this article. There is currently a section of the article already dealing with the subject, and the most relevant information can be merged into it. I would personally support such a merger, as having an entirely separate article dealing with the alleged impact of one belief system, which is in several ways difficult to differentiate with Gnosticism, seems to me to be giving undue weight to those particular sources who do make such differentiation. While the interrelationships of religions is important, and there is already an Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion/Interfaith work group to deal with such matters, lumping all this material together into an article which deals primarily with the idea from the viewpoint of what is probably the least significant of the faith traditions mentioned seems counterproductive and possibly POV pushing. I would support such a merger. John Carter ( talk) 20:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
"Hermetism, Hermeticism and other thought systems" is not an arguable title. Perhaps something sensible could be produced under "History of Hermeticism" or similar, organized as a {{ main}} article branching off this one. KV first needs to understand basic Wikipedia rules such as WP:SYN. If you want to discuss the cult of Hermes in classical antiquity (i.e. before Hellenism), you'll need another title. Try Hermes or Ancient Greek religion to begin with. "Hermetism" is used synonymously with "Hermeticism" and refers to the tradition of Late Antiquity ( Hermetica) revived in the Renaissance. Discussion of an older cult is welcome, but will need excellent sources. Esotericist blather about Ancient Egypt isn't going to cut it. dab (𒁳) 06:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I've just moved the comparative article to Hermetism and other religions (that seems to be standard). The article is still awful but at least the title isn't quite so painfully bad. I've also deleted some of the more outstanding claims - that the entire Pentateuch is a Hermetic text, and that Marx's theories were Hermeticism-inspired. I mean, WTF? Moreschi2 ( talk) 14:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I placed a flag on the "Rosicrucianism" section because these comments not only are unsourced but seem virtually impossible to source as they are. Why is the graded system of Rosicrucianism more like the graded system of Freemasonry than the graded system of the American public school system? Besides, Rosicrucianism is older than Masonry by at least a century. Etc etc. Section needs attention. Yonderboy ( talk) 22:29, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I've added a citation for The Rosicrucian Enlightenment (Frances Yates), which documents the publication of the three German pamphlets in the 17th century. This reference does not cover any of the other material in the section in question, however. AdamFunk ( talk) 19:29, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
This is not a direct edit, but something that needs to be discussed by everyone who has been editing this article!
Hermetics is not a static system of beliefs or texts, but is a source of knowledge for students to continue the work of developing the knowledge of Hermetic Science and Philosophy.
The first thing missing from this article is a definition of Hermetics. I define it as follows: "Hermetic Science is the study of human consciousness and how the individual uses their consciousness to understand and to function in their environment." This definition and others should be a topic of serious discussion.
If you have read and studied the texts over the period of time already given in the various parts of this entry you will see that this Science and Philosophy has continued to develop from the time of the first documents to the present day.
Start as far back in the history of the documents as you care to go. For example: "Iamblichus' Exhortation to the Study of Philosophy" is a far better explanation of the basic concepts of Hermetics than any work that precedes it. This improvement in the knowledge and the basic principles and concepts of Hermetics shows a clear line of development all the way from Classical Greece to the present day. A still more recent example is the work of Mary Anne Atwood “A Suggestive Inquiry into the Hermetic Mystery;” originally published anomymously in 1850. It was later reprinted by Isobel de Steiger. However, it is known that the reprint is accurate because an additional copies of the original work are available. I am unsure if any of the editors of this article are even aware of this text or have ever read it. I note that it has not been mentioned anywhere in this article nor do any of the numerous works cited in her work appear in this article. (I have a copy of this book that I scanned and formmated into an e-text and would be happy to pass that to anyone who would like to read it. E-mail to Hermotimus@aol.com.)
It is known that this book found its way into the hands of a number of students of Hermetics who continued to carry on with the work of developing and improving the understanding of Hermetic Science and Philosophy. Among those students are the authors: Waite Arthur Edward (note his Hermetic Museum work); as well as numerous members of the Golden Dawn through the influence of both Waite and de Steiger; Atkinson, William, Walker, who is the likely author or co-author of the Kybalion, which is considered one of the modren texts which defines Hermetics; and Case, Paul Foster, who founded the Builders of the Adytum in 1932, and through its offices over the past 76 years, have taught by means of mail order lessons, what he knew of Hermetics and what he developed in terms of new knowledge on the subject during his lifetime. Hermotimus ( talk) 03:47, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
To put in all the citations needed for this discussion would bring this discussion up to at least 15,000 words. and if the discussion would be later placed in the article it would overshadow everything else in the article. I am willing to take on explaining the process of the development of Hermetics step by step from its first known documents to the modern day, citing each document and citing the changes from one document to its predeccor, but to do so would require a full length book and I am sure that this does not belong in wikipedia.
As far as the definition of Hermetics, I will dig out the needed citations. I know of at least 12 books that contain solid references to that definition and will post it here for further discussion, But, this will take me a couple of weeks to sort through all of the material. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hermotimus ( talk • contribs) 13:48, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I would like to break this into two separate topics. Here to continue the modern history of Hermetics and a new topic on the Definition of Hermetics Hermotimus ( talk) 22:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
"Simply stated, Hermetism, or its synonym Alchemy, was in its primary intention and office the philosophic and exact science of the regeneration of the human soul from its present sense-immersed state into the perfection and nobility of that divine condition in which it was originally created. Secondarily and incidentally, as will presently appear, it carried with it a knowledge of the way in which the life-essence of things belonging to the subhuman kingdoms - the metallic genera in particular and, correspondingly, be intensified and raised to a nobler form than that in which it exists in its present natural state. It is to this secondary aspect only that the popular mind turns when Alchemy is mentioned, unaware of the subject's larger and primary intention, and it is desirable, therefore, to treat of the science here first from the larger aspect, and subsequently from its lesser and subsidiary one." A SUGGESTIVE INQUIRY INTO HERMETIC PHILOSOPHY AND ALCHEMY by Mary Anne Atwood (1850)(reissue with intro by de Steiger) LONDON: J. M. WATKINS, 21 Cecil Court, W.C. pg 26 Hermotimus ( talk) 23:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
It seems this definitions / Etimology needed some improvement and the talk page even has more information that need to be reincorproated IMHO for only correct citations were needed and article can be well expanded. Atlantisfoundation ( talk) 15:26, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
I removed this statement: "This last is an example of how Hermes Trismegistus was adopted by Christianity to serve its own particular purposes." The example, which I left in, was sourced and it stated: "Another explanation, in the Suda (10th century), is that "He was called Trismegistos on account of his praise of the trinity, saying there is one divine nature in the trinity.""
So the statement should be removed or properly sourced by reliable scholarship. Sweetmoose6 ( talk) 21:20, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I realize that wiki rules dictate that all entries are capitalized, but the author Jan Vijg in his/her book " Aging of the Genome" uses the term un-capitalized. re: Can modern science succeed where hermeticism failed?
The wiktionary has no entry and so, I wonder if capitalization is a mistake or that some kind of notation should be applied in the definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.174.73.124 ( talk) 02:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Didn't know where else to put this, so here goes. Isn't it said somewhere that the reason HT possesses three parts of the wisdom is because he is actually a pseudonym of three composite authors, or traditions, namely those of Europe, Asia and Egypt? Can't cite a source, does anyone else know of this?
This is speculative but perhaps a better interpretation of three parts of the wisdom could represent the development of Hermetism from it's Hellenic roots. The three parts being the civic religion, the mystery religions and philosophy. Hermetism subsumes and completes all three. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.137.36.230 ( talk) 10:08, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Nuttyskin ( talk) 18:17, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm generally well-read and considered fairly intelligent, as well, one of my interests is Philosophy. So it was with some eagerness that I clicked the Hermeticism link in another article (Paracelsus) looking to learn a little something more. Well, from the intro paragraph on, I simply can not decipher anything that this article is trying saying. In that regard, all your work here is useless. What's the point of writing in a way that only those who already understand can get anything from it? Clearly you put a lot of effort into this article. Pls take that passion and re-write at least the intro paragraph so that a reasonably informed lay person can understand something about Hermeticism.
Ronewolf ( talk) 20:06, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
The following insert is being placed into the article. There is no references and the said user has inserted statements trying to connect an "Occult" link to the Christian Message Bible. I will oppose until a real source is found. Good luck in finding it.
In the Message Bible translation, created by Eugene Peterson, the well known sentence in the Lord's prayer translated from New Testament Greek manuscripts usually as, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven", is rendered "Do what's best — as above, so below."
Basileias ( talk) 02:41, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
Hello Basileias, I have not stated that there is a link between The Message Bible and the occult. I have simply inserted a piece of factual relevant information into the Wikipedia entry on the expression "As above; so below". Had I asserted that the Message Bible was occultic I would have needed a reference. However, the only reference required for my entry is one linking the expression "As above so below" to The Message Bible for Matt 6:10. In the original Greek of Matt 6:10 the words for "heaven" and "earth" and God's "will" occur. Eugene Petersen did not translate any of these words but made the fascinating choice of what is well known as an occult expression and translated "Your will be done on earth as in heaven" as simply "As above, so below". In a best selling Bible translation this fact is not insignificant and I suggest it deserves a mention in Wikipedia. I have no particular preference as to where it appears. You did not like it on the Message Bible page, so I moved it to this article here. This fact about the Message Bible is somewhat embarrassing I know. Either Eugene Petersen, a man of letters, is ignorant about this well known occult expression - which makes it very strange that he would just "invent" it (since the Greek behind it would not throw up this rendering) - or he is aware of it, which makes its insertion even stranger. I am not charging him or his translation with anything. I am stating a curious and fascinating fact in an encyclopedia. I will hold off on editing in anticipation of your response Journalist492 ( talk) 20:33, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
This article (or at least its introduction) fails to answer that question. The intro says hermeticism is a set of beliefs, but it doesn't say anything about what those beliefs are. Can someone please fix that? 46.194.129.179 ( talk) 13:54, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Hermeticism is a set of beliefs and practices whose aim is the influencing of the world through contact with the heavenly forces. It claims descent from a prisca theologica, an original untainted, pure set of doctrines, secretive, which allegedly were compiled in ancient times, in Egypt, and whose undiluted purity guarantees their veracity and efficacy. Much of the importance of Hermeticism is due to its connection with the devlopment of science in the Renaissance and 17th century, because the prominence given to the idea of influencing or controlling nature, led many of the newe scientists to look to magic and its allied arts (astrology, etc.) in celebrating the idea of experiment--of putting Nature "to the test." Consequently, it is the practical aspect of the Hermetic writings that attracted attention after the Renaissance. Isaac Newton placed great faith in this idea of a "pure tradition," an unadulterated pure ancient doctrine which he studied vigorously, attempting (believe it or not) to aid in his understanding of the physical world. I hope this helps. 207.237.89.3 ( talk) 15:47, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Allen Roth
What's with the opening paragraph? I do not see any references or sources for most of the information. To be honest, it looks to me like someone giving their own interpretation of what Hermeticism is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.190.245.39 ( talk) 01:48, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
"Much of the importance of Hermeticism arises from its connection with the development of science during the time from 1300 to 1600 A.D. ..."
The points of this entire paragraph clearly derive from the work of Frances Yates, specifically Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition.
This book was controversial within the history of science, claiming that Renaissance occultism, specifically magic, was influential over the development of science in ways not previously appreciated. The general response by historians seems to have acknowledged the general point in a moderate way, but Yates' works are not considered sound scholarship. I think the claim, that this is where much of Hermeticism's importance derives from, is too strong. Hermeticism specifically is not generally acknowledged by historians of science as being an especially significant influence.
I think the entire paragraph should properly be deleted. If it must remain, it should be prefaced by saying that it is a statement of the claims of Frances Yates (and possibly that those claims aren't taken especially seriously).
I contend that falsely attributed is not a suitable replacement for pseudepigraphical. False is derived from fallō (“deceive”), which implies intentional wrong doing to gain advantage. The intention when ascribing pseudepigraphical writings to Hermes was not to deceive, but rather to indicate that, at it's most basic reduction, Thoth was the god of writing. So rather than having an intention to deceive, its actual purpose was to remind the reader of the divine derivation of knowledge. Plus by removing it we are curtailing opportunities for people to learn new words, which is bogus. Morgan Leigh | Talk 09:10, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
The end of the first paragraph states, "..true theology exists which is present in all religions and was given by God to man in antiquity."
My understanding is that Hermeticists believe that "God" may or may not be a self-conscience entity. However, by using the term "God" seems to exclude the belief that this force could be a non-conscience entity. Am I correct? If so, is there another term that could be used instead of "God". Perhaps there should be a section on the Hermetic idea of what "God" is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.251.145.104 ( talk) 04:03, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
@ Diannaa: have a look at this edit, and then Google for the sentence [ https://www.google.nl/search?q=who+argued+that+Casaubon%27s+allegation+of+forgery&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=CdMYV7qvMsaXsgGL6JyoCA "who argued that Casaubon's allegation of forgery". Lulu.com seems to be doing good business with Wiki-texts. The info in question comes from Ralph Cudworth, The True Intellectual System of the Universe. First American Edition by Thomas Birch, 1837 ( Hermes Trismegistus, Hermetica). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:24, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
The user notes in his edit summaries that he copy-pasted from Hermes Trismegistus and Hermetica. — Diannaa ( talk) 13:33, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
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In the second-to-last paragraph in the section Hermeticism#Renaissance is the following sentence:
I'd like to put an English translation of the Latin terms in parentheses after each one, but my knowledge of Latin is limited. When I used Google translate, I got "boundary at which" for "terminus ad quem" and "where" for "quo". While those may be accurate translations, I don't think they make enough sense for the reader who does not know Latin because they are too close in meaning. This sentence must be understood in context, and, in particular, in relation to the sentence that precedes it. Besides "boundary", perhaps "terminus" could be understood as meaning "ending," or "end point". Perhaps an editor who knows Latin could help with coming up with precise, nuanced translations for these two terms that would make sense in relation to the previous sentence and make clear what the important difference is between the two terms. – Corinne ( talk) 15:50, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Many writers, including Lactantius, Cyprian of Carthage,[8] Augustine of Hippo,[9] Marsilio Ficino, Giovanni Pico della Mirandola, Giordano Bruno, Tommaso Campanella, Sir Thomas Browne, and Ralph Waldo Emerson, considered Hermes Trismegistus to be a wise pagan prophet who foresaw the coming of Christianity.[10][11]
Where's Newton? People are very uncomfortable WRT to his involvement in subjects such as this. 108.200.234.93 ( talk) 17:17, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
Hermetism refers specifically to the philosophy of the Hermetic Corpus, whereas Hermeticism encompasses all of the Hermetic Sciences (The Way of Hermes, Inner Traditions International, 2000, Pg. 9):
This manuscript contained the nucleus of the Corpus Hermeticum, also falsely called Pimander, after the first treatise, Poimandres. Along with some astrological and alchemical works, also named after Hermes, these tracts became the fundamental writings of the Renaissance, together called Hermeticism, whereas the doctrine of the Corpus Hermeticum is called hermetism.
I have removed the reference to Augustine in the introduction. Unlike Cyprian, Lactantius and most Renaissance hermeticists, Augustine of Hippo did not believe Hermes to be a wise prophet. In City of God, VIII.23-4, he characterises Hermes as being inspired by demons rather than the Holy Spirit and replacing an old form of idolatry by a new one, even though, inspired by demons, he would mourn a future abolition of this very system. For a secondary source, this view is expressed in the very beginning of Frances A. Yates's "Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition", specifically in the pages 9-11 of Routledge's 1964 edition. Leefeni aures audiendi audiat 00:55, 17 May 2020 (UTC)