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Work on the new article is being done at Talk:Herero and Namaqua Wars/temp
There is a tendency of giving the most dramatic figures and expressions possible in order to gain public interest or compensation. But I don´t think that the term "concentration camp" should be used in this context because in the connection with Germany it inavoidably reminiscens to the nazi-style concentration camps in Poland. And to equate the camps of a German colonial army to camps like Auschwitz would be definitely misleading.
Britain and Imperial Germany were colonial competitors in Africa and Britain had an interest of accusing German governing as being brutal and incompetent. Finally the German colonies were handed to the allies after WW1.
In case the anonymous editor 84.12.173.135 comes back - your changes were reverted as you've removed valid parts of the article, and inserted POV copy. There are some valuable insights, but please don't just come in and change the article, removing mention of German deaths etc as you wish. NPOV means expressing all points of view. I agree the article comes across too much from a German perspective, and needs improvement, but your changes just reverse the problem. Greenman 08:47, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I have added information regarding the conflict citing Deutsche Welle articles. I deleted "The German troops, however, were badly infected with Typhus and Cholera and were unable to pursue them", as I could not find any evidence of that. Changed "volunteers" to 'soldiers".
Both articles deal with the same historic events, so they are duplicate. The difference is, of course, in the name. I don't want to elude the controversy, if there is one, but I believe that duplicates articles have no place in Wikipedia and, that if there is a controversy, it should be addressed on the same page. Lapaz 17:10, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The former version of this article was basically rant and trash, written from an extreme anti-German POV, and is really not worth commenting on (everyone can read it themselves, but the ridiculous links to "Lebensraum", "Concentration camp" and statements like "Shark Island was the precursor to the Nazi death camps that were to become an integral part of the Third Reich thirty years later" reveal the intention of the author). Everyone who wants to participate here must make themselves familiar with our Wikipedia:NPOV policy. I invite you to start working on an encyclopedic and NPOV article worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. Most of the former article is unusable, but some material from the former POV version [1] may possibly be used if substantially reworded. Maria Stella 13:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Note: Please do not reinstate POV content until concensus to include it is achieved, or move it to the POV "Genocide" title. The widely accepted as well as neutral name is the Herero Uprising. See for example the German Wikipedia. Maria Stella 14:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted again to the longer "genocide version" so the text can be fixed. Here are the POV issues with the long version, as I see them:
Suggested edits of above, with further editing for grammar. This also needs to be sourced.
I am assuming that Lapaz put this in. In my opinion, it should have a source.
This is blatantly POV and somewhat offtopic as currently written. Consider deleting this. At the very least it needs a source. The term "historical revisionist" should be avoided.
Again, this is not an article about the Nazis. Unless there is some direct and verifiable link between the Final Solution and the Herero Uprising, consider taking this out.
Says who? We can't just declare it a genocide, but we can cite others who have.
These are just my preliminary thoughts, but what do you all think?-- Birdmessenger 17:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Just a comparison: This summer Arabs took 3 Israeli soldiers POW. In revenge, Israel has to this date killed appromimately 1,000 Lebanese civilians. What if the Arabs had murdered 123 Israeli civilians, what had Israel done? In any event, a number of people would protest calling the "Israel-Lebenese conflict" the "Israeli genocide on the Lebanese". The uprising in the German colony and the methods used to suppress it were in no way unique. There are dozens of examples of worse British, French or Belgian behaviour. But we don't have articles on all the British "genocides" around the world. The British editors would protest and call it POV. Just like the Israeli/Jewish editors always demand that Israeli actions are explained from the Israeli point of view and no "non-neutral" words are used. However, bashing Germans seems to be allowed. Some people want to make special rules for Germans. That is called racism and explained in the article Anti-German sentiment. We cannot allow that. As may be seen, other Wikipedias, including the German, use the accepted and neutral term "uprising", which is not the POV of either side, just factual. As long as the article is not moved to the POV title, I shall leave the text as it is while we work on it to remove all POV. I suggest instantly removing all "Nazi" and "Genocide" references and other Anti-German statements, although it is going to be a real mess with section titles like "1 Before the genocide", "2 The genocide" and "3 Recognition, denial and compensation". Maria Stella 18:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I have now tried to remove the worst POV while keeping the original problematic text. Please share your thoughts, and please discuss changes rather than reverting. Maria Stella 18:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I am assuming that Lapaz put [ref to skulls] in. In my opinion, it should have a source.
Historical revisionists prefer the terms "Herero Wars" while acknowledging massacres. They deem the evidence insufficient to call it a genocide and deride comparisons to Auschwitz as sensationalism.
Just to add something to the discussion here. The Whitaker report (1985) classifies the Herero-German war of 1904 as genocide. For me it is difficult to understand why Maria Stella changes this accepted point of view (by both the German government and the UN) with her own. -- Bries 13:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Instead of an edit war, let's have a discussion. My suggestion is that we conduct a poll on the title of the article, solicit some input from others, maybe even come to some consensus and then move on to how the issue of genocide should be addressed in the article.
Add *Support or *Oppose below each possible title followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~ Or add an alternative nomination.
I could go with Herero Wars, probably the most common English-language name, or Herero and Namaqua Genocide (which seems to me to be the most accurate for what occurred). - Jmabel | Talk 02:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Of course vandalism is in the eye of the beholder, but the only vandal I can see is Maria Stella who happily renamed the article to her version (the only option in the poll without any support) and rewrote the article with her whitewash. Sadly it looks like she doesn't want to reach consensus, or acknowledge any wrongdoings from her heroes, rather just push her POV. I'll help in reverting her vandalism, while hopefully everyone more involved can work on improving the article. It does come across with perhaps too little of the German perspective, but the way to improve it is not to deny the genocide. Greenman 14:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The persistent vandals are Lapaz and Greenman who should be blocked from Wikipedia before they make more damage. I will happily revert all vandalism they make while we work on improving the article. The only one who has stated (and showed) that he is not interested in discussing his edits and reach consensus, only push his racist POV, is Lapaz. Maria Stella 15:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The vandalism of User:Lapaz seems to persist. He has clearly showed that he ignores our NPOV and consensus policy, and is not interested in discussing his edits. I think time has come to ban him indefinitely. After months he continues to vandalize the article. His recent (September 12) garbage include "The infamous Shark Island was the precursor to the Nazi death camps that were to become an integral part of the Third Reich thirty years later" and adding "see also" links to "Lebensraum". We have to realize that this person is simply a troll and a vandal, and to revert his changes until he goes away or he is blocked. We cannot accept this racist POV pushing and attempt to rewrite history by certain nationalist activists at Wikipedia. Maria Stella 21:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
![]() | The examples and perspective in this article may not represent a
worldwide view of the subject. (December 2010) |
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First...I would like to say "Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its a duck..." On Wikipedia, you may have to verify it and CITE it.
All Genocides occur during War conflicts. A genocide is a war attrocity/crime committed during a war. War is a combination of empire expansion, political and economic reasons. Unless genocide was the entire focus of this campaign,(which I doubt), then there needs to be an Article "Herero (and Namaqua) War" with a significant section on genocide. Perhaps the Genocide merits a seperate article, such as Genocide during Herero War or the like.
In current form, using sections like "before the genocide" and "after genocide" is POV pushing, borderline weasel word use. Let the reader decide, I think they can come to obvious conclusions. This section should be a significant part of Herero War.
Framework:
Secondary Sources ( WP:RS) by the ton please.
Keep to one to three.
Atrocities should probably be touched briefly in chronology, but expanded in later sections.
In short, this should give a proper NPOV article without trivializing the genocide that occured. Language and Prose is important, especially in article titling. It is a fact a war occured. That a genocide occured is a factual opinion, probably even prevalent opinion. Lets just deal with absolute facts in the lead summary paragraph, include factual opinions in other places in the article.
Historians are allowed to changed their mind. Are they not human? "Historical Revisionists" is a POV, specfically termed with holocaust denial. Its use in the article is way out of context, and should be removed.
Conclusion: Genocide occurs during War. Expand this article using the above framework, stop edit warring. Good Luck. Electrawn 22:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
My version is largely based upon the ideas described by Electrawn above, and the draft may be seen at [3] (not completely up to date). I've always stated my willingness to discuss every aspect of the article to reach a consensus version which is neutral and factual, and does not use POV language, in short: a version everyone who edit in accordance with the NPOV principles can agree on. Maria Stella 22:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Having a separate article as well to broadly discuss the controversy around the alleged genocide is a good idea. I'm planning to write a separate article on Herero massacres on German civilians as well. If everyone cooperates, this may in time become a good article. Maria Stella 22:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
If you want to contribute to the new article, the work will be done here: Talk:Herero and Namaqua Wars/temp. Maria Stella 09:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I've protected this article due to an ongoing content dispute. I see there are already attempts to resolve the issues on this talk page, so please do it here, not via an edit war. Thank you. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
This comment might or might not end up affecting the name of the article. However that matter is resolved, the wars should be called the German-Herero War and the German-Namaqua War and the combined form should be the German-Herero and -Namaqua Wars. The terms Herero and Namaqua Wars are German POV (earlier discussion of other wars involving Herero & Namaqua but not Germans reflect this fact). Compare e.g. to U.S. Vietnam War vs. Vietnamese American War.
I advocate putting German first because the initial aggression here, setting up the situation for all further forms of conflict of the African peoples with Germans, was German colonial occupation.
Possibly however putting the African peoples' names first (Herero-German War, Namaqua-German War etc.) would be better, because the result is closer to the POV name familiar to many people. Either option would be reasonable and acceptable to me.
This proposal fits general historical practice in southern African history in the last 35 or 40 years -- e.g. convention now is either Anglo-Boer War or South African War for "the war formerly known as Boer" ;-> , and likewise Anglo-Zulu War is conventional for the 1879 conflict, replacing Zulu War, precisely because the older names reflected British POV. I believe the placement of Anglo- first reflects British initiation of both conflicts, but it may have been an aesthetic choice based on perception of euphony. Ngwe 18:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Maria Stella has repeatedly asserted that German atrocities committed against the Herero and Namaqua peoples did not rise to the level of genocide, and also that putatively worse atrocities by the French, Belgians and British are not called genocides, so that to place that label on German atrocities in Südwestafrika amounts to anti-German "racism"; since Germans aren't a race, let me say ethnocentric anti-German prejudice. She has not provided any more detail or evidence. I believe she is mistaken on the whole on both counts.
The question of which European colonial actions constituted genocides needs to be separated from which ones, if genocides, are adequately recognized as such. If German actions in Südwestafrika were genocide, and actions by others were worse but not called genocide, the proper course of action would be to call those genocides by their proper name, not deny German genocide.
As to the application of the term genocide, it has been growing in application to a number of European and Euro-diaspora situations. For instance, far and away the best-known and widest-read book on early Belgian colonialism in the Congo, Adam Hochschild's King Leopold's Ghost clearly labels Belgian actions in the first decade of the 20th century & maybe a bit earlier as genocide. Likewise there is wide recognition of specific U.S. actions against specific Native American peoples as having a genocidal character, and of 19th century U.S.-American culture as having a broadly genocidal view of American Indians and their future. Those interpretations are contested by some scholars, debated by others, but recognized as scholarly and intellectually serious. Also a number of post-colonial inter-African conflicts have clearly been called genocides, including Burundi in the 1970s, Rwanda in 1994 and Darfur (more contestedly) at present; Sudanese government actions in the south in the long civil war have also been characterized as genocidal. So the idea that Germans are being singled out is not persuasive. Rather, the German government's recognition of its predecessors' actions in Südwestafrika as genocide actually fits a pattern of reflection and reinterpretation within post-colonialist societies of historical acts and their contemporaneous justifications.
As to whether other powers' actions were "worse" than those of Germany in Südwestafrika, it would be helpful to know Maria Stella's referents. Deaths in the Congo Free State were certainly many times more numerous, but as noted that situation also has been called a genocide. Michael Watts in Silent Violence documented massive devastation and death in colonial northern Nigeria in famines caused by British economic policy and ecological practices; on the other hand Hans Kjekshus has done something similar for German Ostafrika. Probably in both cases the element of destructive intention aimed at a specific people or religious group needed for genocide was missing. For sheer numbers of deaths, the consequences of German reactions to the Maji-Maji rebellion in Ostafrika in 1903 were larger than those in Südwestafrika -- 200,000 deaths, mostly due to displacement & consequent famine & disease is a common estimate, but they are not usually treated as genocidal. Certainly of British and French atrocities there is no shortage. In the 1906-07 African rebellion in Natal, South Africa ("Bhambhatha's Rebellion"), Africans suffered about 3000 deaths and no injured i.e. the British & settler forces took no prisoners and killed the wounded. Zulu communities certainly also suffered excess deaths in those years and a few after as a result of scorched earth policies in some areas. Timothy Weiskel in his history of the Baulé people of Cote d'Ivoire has a frontispiece of French officers in white uniforms and pith helmets holding up a severed African man's head; Bhambhatha's head was made a trophy in Natal as the Xhosa king Hintsa's head had been in the Cape Colony in the 1830s. European colonialism everywhere in Africa was ugly and violent, and in the period between about 1895 and the early 1920s (esp. French West Africa for the later dates) often involved mass resistance and mass violent repression. It is possible that numbers of those actions should be reinterpreted as genocidal under the "in whole or in part" section of the definition of genocide.
Yet Südwestafrika in 1904-07 stands out as distinctive. I would be very interested to have Maria Stella cite another case involving a comparably high degree of ethnic specificity and extremely high proportion of population mortality involved in the genocide against the Herero.
Ngwe 19:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Kevin Shillington's History of Africa is a standard, widely used and respected English-language survey textbook published by Macmillan/Palgrave Macmillan, a highly reputable publisher. The 2005 second revised edition at page 341 quotes H. Bley, South-West Africa under German Rule, Heinemann, 1971, pp. 163-4 with the following translation of what Shillington calls the "notorious 'extermination' proclamation" of 1904 by General von Trotha, as follows:
Heinemann until recently was a distinguished publisher of scholarly African history, with high editorial standards, and absent contrary evidence I accept that this is an accurate translation. General von Trotha appears to have taken pains to make his meaning and intentions graphically clear. Those expressed intentions very precisely fit many of the defining characteristics of genocide under the later Convention against it (indeed to the point that I wonder if the proclamation might have been a reference document in the formulation of the Convention, though I have no evidence or knowledge of that). As we further know, von Trotha executed those intentions with brutal and savage efficiency. The fact that other human beings are and have been brutal, savage and efficiently so does not make it POV to recognize these facts about the actions by von Trotha and those under his command. The Herero suffered a genocide at the hands of the German government and its army.
My only question is about nesting: should there three articles, one on German colonialism (and perhaps post World War I settlers under South African rule), one on the Herero- and Namaqua-German Wars (which actually date back to the 1880s), and one on the genocide; or should there be two, with the wars nested in the colonialism article and the genocide separate; or should there be two with the general colonialism article separate, and the genocide nested within the wars? Ngwe 20:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Maria Stella has repeatedly emphasized the murders of 123 German civilian settlers by Herero people rebelling against German rule in Südwestafrika in 1904. Insofar as there may be dispute over including that fact in an account of the genocide, she undoubtedly is right to say that it should be included as an important context for the German administration's and army's actions. To the bare fact should be included information about who was killed if possible and some indication of the size of the settler population (this must have been a relatively large proportion who were killed, I'd guess more than 1% and less than 10%).
By the same token, the Herero actions also should be put in context. The German civilians in question had taken Herero lands with the backing of German military force, and the Herero violence in 1904 was not the first violence in the processes of colonial conflict. Moreover the civilians were part of a colonial effort that was systematically depriving the Herero of their means of livelihood, in which the settlers stood to benefit and aimed to benefit from African impoverishment not only in gaining African land, water etc., but their labor on exploitative and coercive terms. Nothing particularly unusual about that in any of the European colonies of settlement of course -- similar things were happening across British & Afrikaner southern Africa, and white settlers were extremely nervous about the possibility of African rebellion right across the region.
In any case, the context of those killings and of the wider political rebellion does not make the German response any less genocide. It does not justify genocide, or violence on the scale and of the form perpetrated under any other name Maria Stella might wish to give it. It does not even really explain the extremity of the German adminstration's reaction -- certainly it was a contributing element, but it is not sufficient in itself.
To get at explanation one would need to understand first of all whether von Trotha saw his actions as necessary to maintain German rule, and then consider what that means about European colonialism in Africa and more specifically German colonialism in Südwestafrika, if it required genocide to be maintained. Or did von Trotha see the actions as the most desirable among several options (extreme violence combined with leaving most of the population in place and vulnerable to exploitation, such as occurred in Natal or Southern Rhodesia, would seem to have been a possibility, for example), in which case the reasons for his choice need explication. Was it personal psychopathology? Or, more likely, was it an extreme variant of widely shared European racial and social evolutionary ideologies? In this respect I think Maria Stella's comparative observations have more merit -- if the form and relatively encompassing scope of the anti-Herero genocide were distinctive (though not unique certainly if one includes Native Americans in the picture), many of the ideas enabling it were not, at the date in question.
But, to repeat, the murders of 123 settlers do not in themselves make even explicable the genocidal actions of von Trotha, the German army and settler militia in killing or driving to their deaths tens of thousands of equally civilian Herero people, much less justify those actions.
Ngwe 00:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move to Herero and Namaqua Genocide. — Khoi khoi 04:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Herero and Namaqua Wars → Herero and Namaqua Genocide – Was listed on WP:RQM with multiple choices, Herero and Namaqua Genocide got the most supports, now relisting it with only one option to see if it really has support Dijxtra 11:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Add any additional comments
Those colonial germans were the most uncivilised barbarians to walk the planet.There was no decency or civility or humaness in their actions - I can clearly see who the sub-humans were.I only find it interesting given that the various germanic tribes within the ancient world were considered barbarians by the greco-roman world and yet here they are having finally become literate and having lost their tribal affinities and ways over hundreds of years only to end up acting like barbarians as they did thousands of years ago. 202.67.73.62 ( talk) 10:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
The article could probably afford to be longer, as every article can. Also, I wonder about the neutrality of the language used here; it being a "genocide", and colonialism having left a rather bad feeling, I am sure it is difficult to be 100% neutral. Nevertheless, I am simply saying that my B ranking here is based on length, details, pictures, references, and not on my judgement for or against the degree of neutrality here. LordAmeth 09:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Almost all the sources for this POV-laced wiki come from BBC. Additonally, I'm not sure that this can be called genocide outright, though it could be "debtably" so. I plan to research further. Additionally, I don't see that the Boer wars are called "Boer genocide" or anything similar, yet here this article uses it. More anti-German/pto-British bias/bigotry on wikipedia. Gee, what a shock. Ernham 17:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Alright, so far, it's not a genocide. It was more of an expulsion/forced relocation/massacre. Additionally, only men were killed, women and children were not. The Namaqua was also not a genocide, though suffered similarly.
Ernham
17:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
We need valid cites for actual casualties. The "whitaker report" is complete grabage. It's an op-ed piece and nothing more. The figures cited in it are from a guy that neither documents his sources nor his methodology in arriving at his figures. Worse yet, he does not appear to have any credibility to determine such matters. There are different numbers on this version of the wiki, which I'd also like to determine the validity of. Given hwo well the deaths were documented, it should be easy to find a governmental source for accurate casualties.
The entire article needs to be rewritten, much as Stella's version has been done, except for her lead in, which needs changing and perhaps a few other things. This article is as far removed as NPOV as you can get. It is digusting to see the wiki editors in here continue to abuse this wiki with complete lies/bogus cites. I knew wikipedia was bad, but this is just downright disturbing. Ernham 09:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Continually BBC is cited, while BBC has completely misrepresnted facts, omited important parts of cites, etc. For instance, a guy here keeps claiming that "germany called it genoce". Wrong. Germany had never officially recognized the actions there are genocide. One figure of the government cannot speak for the whole nation and an official recognition comes via the government proper(from berlin) NOT the words of one aid minister. Further, she never called it genocide, another thing the BBC gets wrong. She stated that her belief was that had those actons been carried out today it would be considered genocide." Similar issues are found throught this flawed article, mostly stemming from the use of essentially bogsus BBC cites and in some cases complete lies that are not cited/sourced. Ernham 09:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
the BBC are a reputable source, thats why they're the most respected broadcaster in the world
Instead of going into a continual edit war and throwing around insults, let's try focus on improving the article. One of the points of contention is whether Germany officially recognises the events as genocide. It does not. According to the BBC article, after the speech, Herero Paramount Chief Kuaima Riruako said "I once again invite the German government to accept the genocide of my people and engage in a dialogue with the Herero to iron out issues of mutual interest". Germany does not officially recognise it as genocide, and refuses to pay reparations. The aid minister who gave the speech seems to understand the magnitude of the atrocities, saying "We Germans recognize our historical, political, moral and ethical responsibility and guilt," and "Blinded by colonial delusion [Germans brought] violence, discrimination, racism and destruction" to the country. She also pointed out that it would be genocide today, a carefully ambiguous phrase. So on the point of whether Germany officially recognises it as a genocide, I agree with Ernham.
Now official recognition by governments, and use of the term by historians are two different things. There's little doubt the scale of the atrocities warrant the term genocide. The controversy seems to come from governments being unwilling to use the term for fear of reparations and other legal complexities, and revisionists wanting to deny the scale of events.
Ernham, where does your rewritten version of the von Trotha speech come from? Certainly not the BBC article that is listed as the citation for the speech! Please supply the correct source. Greenman 10:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
This is argumentative with the context of the article. This thype of comment, particularly as unsourced/ uncited, belongs on an article talk page or AfD, but not in the article itself. If you can cite a notable source as saying it, then that's a different matter. Jerry lavoie 22:37, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Sigh. This is a call for help to all interested editors to please help monitor the constant removal of cited references, in both this and the Lothar von Trotha articles, by a particular editor, and general attempts to force his own POV. The editor in question is abusive and not-responsive to constructive criticism, and has simply decided to opt out of discussions, and continually revert. Please see the relevant histories for the full discussions, and record of this users lack of constructive engagement. Greenman 17:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
On the point of fact, I'm not disputing that no country recognises the events as genocide. But perhaps there's a context to that? But when you include that fact and at the same time remove sources you don't like, it's simply easier to revert. Greenman 21:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
While Maria Stella and Ernham have been accused of revisionism, and whether this accusation is warranted or not is another discussion, but they DO have a point. Namely, that there has been an awful lot of Germanophobia in connection with the tragic events which befell the Namaqua and Herero. Therefore, I strongly advise aproaching sources on the topic with cautious skepticism and a grain of salt; avoid using obviously outrageous, sensationalist, or slanderous sources. Specifically, by Anti-German trash I do not refer to the contributions of any particular user or to anything in the article as is per se. I am referring to a slanderous, libelious book titled Germany's Black Holocaust, 1890-1945: The Untold Truth by Firpo W. Carr. For those who do not know, Dr. Carr is a fundamentalist Jehovah's Witness scholar. He is also a bigot, being a known homophobe (consider his homophobic rag, Are Gays Really 'Gay'? A Sociological, Scientific, and Theological Analysis essentially a rehash of reactionary anti-gay propaganda), but also an anti-white racist, albeit a covert one. As with far right-wingers and reactionaries of all races, ethnicities, and nationalities, who typically have prejudices for foreign groups, in America at least, far right-wing blacks generally come in two varieties: self-hating black people such as Clarence Thomas and Alan Keyes or rabidly anti-white such as Lois Farrakhan and many of his fellow Nation of Islam members. It may not be clear, but Firpo Carr fits in that latter category. I think it should be fairly obvious that Firpo W. Carr hates white people, but unlike Farrakhan and NoI who are honest enough to admit, Dr. Carr is too much of a coward to upset white Americans and whites in general so he plays the Uncle Tom role and directs all his hatred towards Germans (the easy scapegoat of the twentieth century) in this very Anglo-friendly anti-German rag. But why do I consider this work to be virulently anti-German? The answer lies in the title, "Germany's Black Holocaust, 1890-1945". From the period 1890-1945, Germany was under three different governments: the "Second Reich" under Kaiser Wilhelm II (until 1918), the Weimar Republic (1919-1933), and the Third Reich (Nazi Germany) under Adolf Hitler (1933-1945). Therefore, if as the sensationalistic title suggesting a continuous half century genocide of Black Africans by Germans took place and under no less than three different regimes, then the implication of blame rests, not with evil individuals or groups such as Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party or with any particular government, but with the German people, because the one continuity over that time period is that Germany was populated by essentially the same people speaking the same language. Thus, the message is clear. Firpo Carr really hates white people, but being too cowardly to express said hate rides the tide of Anti-German sentiment instead.
To be fair, I have not actually read the book (except for selections), the slanderous content should be apparent in the review. "In the 1890s Blacks were tortured in German concentration camps in Southwest Africa (now called Namibia)..." A blatant lie. There were no such camps before 1904, and despite unsupported allegations, there is no evidence that torture was employed in the camps (though undoubtedly prisoners suffered). Right off the bat, the author alleges sadism so as to warrant comparisons of the tragedy in Namibia with the Holocaust. "...when Adolph Hitler was only a child." Seeing as the atrocities did not start until 1904, Hitler would have been 15 at the time. Calling him a child is a stretch. "Colonial German doctors conducted unspeakable medical experiments on these emaciated helpless Africans decades before such atrocities were ever visited upon the Jews." Note that even the article Imperialism and Genocide in Namibia from Socialist Action, which compares the Herero and Namaqua Genocide to the Holocaust never mentions unspeakable medical experiments. They even mention Eugen Fischer, a teacher of Josef Mengele: "How did Adolph Hitler acquire many of his racist ideas? Strangely enough they came out of Africa in the form of a book written by Eugen Fischer, a prominent German scientist, who went to Namibia (South West Africa) in 1904 and made a study of the mixed ethnic children of German men and Herero women. The resulting book, "The Principles of Human Heredity of Race Hygiene," attempted to show that these children were mentally and physically inferior to German children. Hitler, while writing "Mein Kampf" in prison years later, read the book. By the time Hitler came to power, Fischer was chancellor at the University of Berlin and taught select Nazi physicians in medical school. One of his pupils was the later notorious Josef Mengele, a doctor at the Auschwitz concentration camp. This "scientific" racist study concerned the first genocide of the 20th century, that of the Herero people." But notice, not one mention in the article about any medical experiments performed on prisoners is to be found! Even so, I did not read the book (just excerpts), so although there are outright lies and fabrications about the incident in the editorial review on Amazon.com, admittedly none of these lies may have been produced by the author. The book ironically titled, "Germany's Black Holocaust, 1890-1945: The Untold Truth" should be retitled with "The Untold Truth" read "Mostly A Blatant Lie I Fabricated with Some True But Little Known (though mostly not connected) Facts Throughout". Even so, it should be obvious by the author's title, the context (his inappropriate connection between the massacres in Namibia and the Holocaust), and his overall bias that the author has a hatred for Germans (and probably whites in general).
Essentially, the author wrote about the Holocaust and included rather uncontroversial FACTS about the Black African victims of the Holocaust, who were clearly victims of a genocide with known motives, together with an account of genocidal activity against Herero and Namaqua in Namibia, which is factually based, in that these tribes were massacred in the tens of thousands (estimates of 60,000 to 75,000 killed from 1904-1907), but the exact nature of the genocide (including debatability of whether it qualifies, motives, etc.) is uncertain, albeit the author presents this later account with less factual data. The author then attempts to connect the tragedy in 1904-1907 Namibia with the Holocaust! (Lying through manipulation.) And he additionally deliberately fabricates dates (why 1890? Obviously to pad the length of this alleged continuous holocaust to over 50 years!) and if the editorial review is correct, invents fictitious accounts of torture committed for its own sake and medical experiments in colonial Namibia. (Outright lies!) If one wishes to read about the black African victims of the Holocaust and their experiences living in Nazi-controlled Europe, then there are plenty of great books to read, including... Destined to Witness: Growing Up Black in Nazi Germany by Hans J. Massaquoi, Hitler's Black Victims: The Historical Experience of Afro-Germans, European Blacks, Africans and African Americans in the Nazi Era by Clarence Lusane, The Other Victims: First-Person Stories of Non-Jews Persecuted by the Nazis by Ina R. Friedman, Other Germans: Black Germans and the Politics of Race, Gender, and Memory in the Third Reich (Social History, Popular Culture, and Politics in Germany) by Tina Marie Campt, Invisible Woman: Growing Up Black in Germany by Ika Hugel-Marshall, and Showing Our Colors: Afro-German Women Speak Out by Katharina Oguntoye. All of the aforementioned books are excellent in their own merits, certainly FAR better than Firpo Carr's BS! And they all have one thing in common, although many of the books detail the injustices and atrocities suffered by black Africans under the Nazis, not one mentions the 1904 massacres or the subsequent encampments. Why? Because the atrocious orders of General Lothar von Trotha and those commanded by Adolf Hitler have NOTHING IN COMMON! (Hint: There were no Nazis in 1904!)
One two-star reviewer said, "If one were to stick to the atrocities committed by colonial Germany in Namibia alone, it would have been enough to fill a book." Personally I disagree, because the massacre was but one 3-year event, not sure if it could fill a book. I suppose if somebody were to write a book that was well-researched, high in factual content, truthful, credible, and with a genuine sympathy for the victims (as opposed to mere finger-pointing), then maybe someone could write a book. Of course, such a book should not be quick to label the event a holocaust and connect it with Nazism. If an author agrees that the massacres and encampment qualifies as genocide, then s/he should provide reasons, including a definition of genocide. Also if one wished to write a book devoted to actions committed by the German general in colonial Namibia, s/he should attempt to understand the motives behind such atrocities. In either case, the tragedy of the Herero and Namaqua certainly deserves an entire chapter on its own, but that chapter should be in a book about the Scramble for Africa. It does not belong in a book about the Holocaust! The fate of the Herero and Nama peoples is but one sad event in the European colonization Africa. Were the author in question to devote a book entirely to the events here specified, then he would no doubt fill it with libel, slander, fabrication, and lies. No wonder why, as the reviewer complained, the author covered other topics in such a way that was "very difficult to follow and digest." Even the reviewer agreed that, "[The book] deserves a re-write with more facts, less emotion and a more organized approach. All of these stories must be told but not in one book." But I would not expect that from the author. Consider this example of Mr. Carr's agenda: "Germany controlled a large part of the African continent before World War I. This included territories in South West Africa, East Africa, and the territories of Togoland and Cameroon. The German Empire had expansionist plans in Africa during the beginning of the century. Documents discovered in 1918 showed plans for all African territories south of the equator as a greater German Empire. Germany lost its empire to Great Britain, France, and the Union of South Africa following the 1918 Peace Treaty." Notice how the author mentions the expansionism of the German Empire but neglects to mention the imperialism of ALL European powers. I agree that all forms of imperialism are bad, but how is German imperialism inherently worse than that of the British, French, Dutch, Belgians, Spanish, Portuguese, or Russians? The author never equates Anglo-French expansion in Africa with "lebensraum" nor does he mention the genocide committed by the Belgians in the Congo (equaling just over 100 Herero Namaqua Genocides) or the atrocities commited against African natives by the British in the Boer Wars or the fact that it were the Anglo-Dutch settlers of the Commonwealth of South Africa who were responsible for Apartheid?
Riding the bandwagon of Germanophobia, Firpo W. Carr produces a rag of Anglophillic Uncle Tom-ery and focuses his anti-white agenda on the Germans. (Due to the universal scapegoat role of Germany, when upset minorities point at whites, whites point ar Germans.) It should be pointed out that it were the Spanish and Portuguese (not blonde-haired, blue-eyed Germans) who were entirely responsible for the trans-Atlantic slave trade, the British who were slow to condemn slavery (and the Anglophone US maintaining it until 1865, about 89 years since the Revolution). The French also maintained slavery and oppression in the Carribean. But the Germans were relative late comers to the scene, having no presense until the turn of the last century. It is understandable why many people of Black African descent would be angry at whites for injustices and atrocities commited against their ancestors. (And Firpo W. Carr strikes me as a particularly angry black man, albeit in a more discreet manner. If not for the fact that Firpo Carr is a Christian fundamentalist, and Farrakhan a Muslim one, and that fanatics of different creeds generally do not get along, they would otherwise make great allies.) Why then single out Germany? For a rebuttal to Mr. Carr's rediculous conclusion, I recommend the essay "The Germans and History" by the brilliant Thomas Sowell (who just so happens to be African-American). You can find it in his book Black Rednecks and White Liberals. So what is the point of this rather long-winded rant? Basically, my point is (a) watch out for sensationalistic sources, often with an agenda, occasionally containing fabrications and downright lies, remaining skeptical and taking information with a grain of salt as required so as to ensure credibility of facts or that data is reliable and not exaggerated, (b) be careful not to spread unreliable information which could be used as a source for slander, like Firpo Carr's hateful book.
What, then are my suggestions for improvement?
Me thinks that's another German myth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.2.124.254 ( talk) 21:41, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Me thinks you have your head in the sand.Those colonial germans were the most uncivilised barbarians to walk the planet.There was no decency or civility or humaness in their actions - I can clearly see who the sub-humans were.I only find it interesting given that the various germanic tribes within the ancient world were considered barbarians by the greco-roman world and yet here they were having finally become literate and having lost their tribal affinities and ways over hundreds of years only to end up acting like barbarians as they did thousands of years ago. 202.67.73.62 ( talk) 10:50, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Read up on "Shepherd Stuurman" for the resistance efforts made against the namaqua genocide which was instigated following the genocide and massacre of the Herero.I have Herero and Nama ancestry as well as anglo saxon,dutch,welsh,irish and unfortunately german ancestry.The "prophet" stuurman tried to liberate his entire country with the little power he had from the onslaught of invading armed germans and died in name of that cause he is one of my ancestors. 58.178.18.221 ( talk) 13:20, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Genocide appears to be an on-going tactic by many countries in the colonial era. In fact, the United States could be responsible for a genocide starting earlier than the 1904-1907 period … where the Philippine Pacification program was started in 1902 (it went from 1902-1913), the war itself (possibly along with civilian reduction) started in 1899 (based on evidence I see, it appears to what happened in the Philippines clearly constitutes genocide as defined clearly by the U.N.). Making calls one who is first or second, sounds more like finger pointing than actual stating of NPOV fact. Nonprof. Frinkus ( talk) 21:36, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
The genocide allegation is bullshit, since there is no evidence for it. -- 41.15.7.218 ( talk) 23:47, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
A genocide requires government plans, and with the German government countermanding that order very quickly, it seems that "genocide" might be the wrong word, despite the Whitaker Report. UN Reports are not biblical injunctions (remember the old Zionism is Racism thingy, not withdrawn?). Anyway, I appreciate the hard work of editors in trying to maintain a scholarly angle, but feel that here, as in so many Wikipedia articles, the foam-at-the-mouth zealots have won, and wikipedia starts becoming increasingly like the Great Soviet Encyclopedia, with a lot of useful data, but since you never know where it is, and what's P.C. bullshit, it's best to avoid citing it in your college essays. There should be a rule that no matter what the issue, at least TWO interpretations should be presented, so readers can form their own opinion. Karpaten1 ( talk) 19:26, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
<- (edit conflict) No, that's not the way me (and probably not Greenman) are using the term "reliable sources". Nobody said anything about tv or newspapers. The link I provided is to numerous academic works. You keep on putting words in people's mouths and constructing strawman after strawman.
And sure, to the extent "context" is discussed in sources, it may be included in the article - though I think you'll find that most of the sources are pretty unequivocal in calling what this article describes "genocide".
And WP:RS and WP:V ARE in fact fundamental Wikipedia policies (rather than simply guidelines) and as such DO constitute an established and uncontested "orthodoxy".
As far as your last paragraph goes - the whole point here is that I am NOT defining "genocide" according to my "own ad hoc ideas and prejudices". In fact, I haven't even defined it at all. I have merely pointed out that the term "genocide" is widely used in reliable sources (not just tv, newspaper etc.). If you have a reliable source that states explicitly that these events do not meet the Nuremberg or Hague definition of the term then that of course can be included - though I think the only thing you'll find is that the German government has been unwilling to recognize them as such. But so far it seems like the only person trying to define genocide according to their own ad hoc ideas and prejudices is you, in order to avoid including the term in the article - despite what reliable sources actually say. radek ( talk) 06:45, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I find it unbelievable that there are still people, and apparently no small number of people, who think that the German colonial empire is worth defending. Lord knows that Britain is cursed with empire-apologists, even though its empire expired about 50 years ago. The Germans' empire collapsed over 90 years ago!
The excreble attempt to deny this genocide has no place on wikipedia. If you disagree with wikipedia's RS policy, go ahead and try to get it repealed. You won't be able to, of course, and that's why you're complaining about it here. But that won't work either, so you might as well give up. BillMasen ( talk) 10:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Work on the new article is being done at Talk:Herero and Namaqua Wars/temp
There is a tendency of giving the most dramatic figures and expressions possible in order to gain public interest or compensation. But I don´t think that the term "concentration camp" should be used in this context because in the connection with Germany it inavoidably reminiscens to the nazi-style concentration camps in Poland. And to equate the camps of a German colonial army to camps like Auschwitz would be definitely misleading.
Britain and Imperial Germany were colonial competitors in Africa and Britain had an interest of accusing German governing as being brutal and incompetent. Finally the German colonies were handed to the allies after WW1.
In case the anonymous editor 84.12.173.135 comes back - your changes were reverted as you've removed valid parts of the article, and inserted POV copy. There are some valuable insights, but please don't just come in and change the article, removing mention of German deaths etc as you wish. NPOV means expressing all points of view. I agree the article comes across too much from a German perspective, and needs improvement, but your changes just reverse the problem. Greenman 08:47, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I have added information regarding the conflict citing Deutsche Welle articles. I deleted "The German troops, however, were badly infected with Typhus and Cholera and were unable to pursue them", as I could not find any evidence of that. Changed "volunteers" to 'soldiers".
Both articles deal with the same historic events, so they are duplicate. The difference is, of course, in the name. I don't want to elude the controversy, if there is one, but I believe that duplicates articles have no place in Wikipedia and, that if there is a controversy, it should be addressed on the same page. Lapaz 17:10, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The former version of this article was basically rant and trash, written from an extreme anti-German POV, and is really not worth commenting on (everyone can read it themselves, but the ridiculous links to "Lebensraum", "Concentration camp" and statements like "Shark Island was the precursor to the Nazi death camps that were to become an integral part of the Third Reich thirty years later" reveal the intention of the author). Everyone who wants to participate here must make themselves familiar with our Wikipedia:NPOV policy. I invite you to start working on an encyclopedic and NPOV article worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. Most of the former article is unusable, but some material from the former POV version [1] may possibly be used if substantially reworded. Maria Stella 13:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Note: Please do not reinstate POV content until concensus to include it is achieved, or move it to the POV "Genocide" title. The widely accepted as well as neutral name is the Herero Uprising. See for example the German Wikipedia. Maria Stella 14:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted again to the longer "genocide version" so the text can be fixed. Here are the POV issues with the long version, as I see them:
Suggested edits of above, with further editing for grammar. This also needs to be sourced.
I am assuming that Lapaz put this in. In my opinion, it should have a source.
This is blatantly POV and somewhat offtopic as currently written. Consider deleting this. At the very least it needs a source. The term "historical revisionist" should be avoided.
Again, this is not an article about the Nazis. Unless there is some direct and verifiable link between the Final Solution and the Herero Uprising, consider taking this out.
Says who? We can't just declare it a genocide, but we can cite others who have.
These are just my preliminary thoughts, but what do you all think?-- Birdmessenger 17:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Just a comparison: This summer Arabs took 3 Israeli soldiers POW. In revenge, Israel has to this date killed appromimately 1,000 Lebanese civilians. What if the Arabs had murdered 123 Israeli civilians, what had Israel done? In any event, a number of people would protest calling the "Israel-Lebenese conflict" the "Israeli genocide on the Lebanese". The uprising in the German colony and the methods used to suppress it were in no way unique. There are dozens of examples of worse British, French or Belgian behaviour. But we don't have articles on all the British "genocides" around the world. The British editors would protest and call it POV. Just like the Israeli/Jewish editors always demand that Israeli actions are explained from the Israeli point of view and no "non-neutral" words are used. However, bashing Germans seems to be allowed. Some people want to make special rules for Germans. That is called racism and explained in the article Anti-German sentiment. We cannot allow that. As may be seen, other Wikipedias, including the German, use the accepted and neutral term "uprising", which is not the POV of either side, just factual. As long as the article is not moved to the POV title, I shall leave the text as it is while we work on it to remove all POV. I suggest instantly removing all "Nazi" and "Genocide" references and other Anti-German statements, although it is going to be a real mess with section titles like "1 Before the genocide", "2 The genocide" and "3 Recognition, denial and compensation". Maria Stella 18:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I have now tried to remove the worst POV while keeping the original problematic text. Please share your thoughts, and please discuss changes rather than reverting. Maria Stella 18:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I am assuming that Lapaz put [ref to skulls] in. In my opinion, it should have a source.
Historical revisionists prefer the terms "Herero Wars" while acknowledging massacres. They deem the evidence insufficient to call it a genocide and deride comparisons to Auschwitz as sensationalism.
Just to add something to the discussion here. The Whitaker report (1985) classifies the Herero-German war of 1904 as genocide. For me it is difficult to understand why Maria Stella changes this accepted point of view (by both the German government and the UN) with her own. -- Bries 13:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Instead of an edit war, let's have a discussion. My suggestion is that we conduct a poll on the title of the article, solicit some input from others, maybe even come to some consensus and then move on to how the issue of genocide should be addressed in the article.
Add *Support or *Oppose below each possible title followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~ Or add an alternative nomination.
I could go with Herero Wars, probably the most common English-language name, or Herero and Namaqua Genocide (which seems to me to be the most accurate for what occurred). - Jmabel | Talk 02:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Of course vandalism is in the eye of the beholder, but the only vandal I can see is Maria Stella who happily renamed the article to her version (the only option in the poll without any support) and rewrote the article with her whitewash. Sadly it looks like she doesn't want to reach consensus, or acknowledge any wrongdoings from her heroes, rather just push her POV. I'll help in reverting her vandalism, while hopefully everyone more involved can work on improving the article. It does come across with perhaps too little of the German perspective, but the way to improve it is not to deny the genocide. Greenman 14:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The persistent vandals are Lapaz and Greenman who should be blocked from Wikipedia before they make more damage. I will happily revert all vandalism they make while we work on improving the article. The only one who has stated (and showed) that he is not interested in discussing his edits and reach consensus, only push his racist POV, is Lapaz. Maria Stella 15:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The vandalism of User:Lapaz seems to persist. He has clearly showed that he ignores our NPOV and consensus policy, and is not interested in discussing his edits. I think time has come to ban him indefinitely. After months he continues to vandalize the article. His recent (September 12) garbage include "The infamous Shark Island was the precursor to the Nazi death camps that were to become an integral part of the Third Reich thirty years later" and adding "see also" links to "Lebensraum". We have to realize that this person is simply a troll and a vandal, and to revert his changes until he goes away or he is blocked. We cannot accept this racist POV pushing and attempt to rewrite history by certain nationalist activists at Wikipedia. Maria Stella 21:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
![]() | The examples and perspective in this article may not represent a
worldwide view of the subject. (December 2010) |
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First...I would like to say "Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its a duck..." On Wikipedia, you may have to verify it and CITE it.
All Genocides occur during War conflicts. A genocide is a war attrocity/crime committed during a war. War is a combination of empire expansion, political and economic reasons. Unless genocide was the entire focus of this campaign,(which I doubt), then there needs to be an Article "Herero (and Namaqua) War" with a significant section on genocide. Perhaps the Genocide merits a seperate article, such as Genocide during Herero War or the like.
In current form, using sections like "before the genocide" and "after genocide" is POV pushing, borderline weasel word use. Let the reader decide, I think they can come to obvious conclusions. This section should be a significant part of Herero War.
Framework:
Secondary Sources ( WP:RS) by the ton please.
Keep to one to three.
Atrocities should probably be touched briefly in chronology, but expanded in later sections.
In short, this should give a proper NPOV article without trivializing the genocide that occured. Language and Prose is important, especially in article titling. It is a fact a war occured. That a genocide occured is a factual opinion, probably even prevalent opinion. Lets just deal with absolute facts in the lead summary paragraph, include factual opinions in other places in the article.
Historians are allowed to changed their mind. Are they not human? "Historical Revisionists" is a POV, specfically termed with holocaust denial. Its use in the article is way out of context, and should be removed.
Conclusion: Genocide occurs during War. Expand this article using the above framework, stop edit warring. Good Luck. Electrawn 22:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
My version is largely based upon the ideas described by Electrawn above, and the draft may be seen at [3] (not completely up to date). I've always stated my willingness to discuss every aspect of the article to reach a consensus version which is neutral and factual, and does not use POV language, in short: a version everyone who edit in accordance with the NPOV principles can agree on. Maria Stella 22:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Having a separate article as well to broadly discuss the controversy around the alleged genocide is a good idea. I'm planning to write a separate article on Herero massacres on German civilians as well. If everyone cooperates, this may in time become a good article. Maria Stella 22:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
If you want to contribute to the new article, the work will be done here: Talk:Herero and Namaqua Wars/temp. Maria Stella 09:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I've protected this article due to an ongoing content dispute. I see there are already attempts to resolve the issues on this talk page, so please do it here, not via an edit war. Thank you. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
This comment might or might not end up affecting the name of the article. However that matter is resolved, the wars should be called the German-Herero War and the German-Namaqua War and the combined form should be the German-Herero and -Namaqua Wars. The terms Herero and Namaqua Wars are German POV (earlier discussion of other wars involving Herero & Namaqua but not Germans reflect this fact). Compare e.g. to U.S. Vietnam War vs. Vietnamese American War.
I advocate putting German first because the initial aggression here, setting up the situation for all further forms of conflict of the African peoples with Germans, was German colonial occupation.
Possibly however putting the African peoples' names first (Herero-German War, Namaqua-German War etc.) would be better, because the result is closer to the POV name familiar to many people. Either option would be reasonable and acceptable to me.
This proposal fits general historical practice in southern African history in the last 35 or 40 years -- e.g. convention now is either Anglo-Boer War or South African War for "the war formerly known as Boer" ;-> , and likewise Anglo-Zulu War is conventional for the 1879 conflict, replacing Zulu War, precisely because the older names reflected British POV. I believe the placement of Anglo- first reflects British initiation of both conflicts, but it may have been an aesthetic choice based on perception of euphony. Ngwe 18:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Maria Stella has repeatedly asserted that German atrocities committed against the Herero and Namaqua peoples did not rise to the level of genocide, and also that putatively worse atrocities by the French, Belgians and British are not called genocides, so that to place that label on German atrocities in Südwestafrika amounts to anti-German "racism"; since Germans aren't a race, let me say ethnocentric anti-German prejudice. She has not provided any more detail or evidence. I believe she is mistaken on the whole on both counts.
The question of which European colonial actions constituted genocides needs to be separated from which ones, if genocides, are adequately recognized as such. If German actions in Südwestafrika were genocide, and actions by others were worse but not called genocide, the proper course of action would be to call those genocides by their proper name, not deny German genocide.
As to the application of the term genocide, it has been growing in application to a number of European and Euro-diaspora situations. For instance, far and away the best-known and widest-read book on early Belgian colonialism in the Congo, Adam Hochschild's King Leopold's Ghost clearly labels Belgian actions in the first decade of the 20th century & maybe a bit earlier as genocide. Likewise there is wide recognition of specific U.S. actions against specific Native American peoples as having a genocidal character, and of 19th century U.S.-American culture as having a broadly genocidal view of American Indians and their future. Those interpretations are contested by some scholars, debated by others, but recognized as scholarly and intellectually serious. Also a number of post-colonial inter-African conflicts have clearly been called genocides, including Burundi in the 1970s, Rwanda in 1994 and Darfur (more contestedly) at present; Sudanese government actions in the south in the long civil war have also been characterized as genocidal. So the idea that Germans are being singled out is not persuasive. Rather, the German government's recognition of its predecessors' actions in Südwestafrika as genocide actually fits a pattern of reflection and reinterpretation within post-colonialist societies of historical acts and their contemporaneous justifications.
As to whether other powers' actions were "worse" than those of Germany in Südwestafrika, it would be helpful to know Maria Stella's referents. Deaths in the Congo Free State were certainly many times more numerous, but as noted that situation also has been called a genocide. Michael Watts in Silent Violence documented massive devastation and death in colonial northern Nigeria in famines caused by British economic policy and ecological practices; on the other hand Hans Kjekshus has done something similar for German Ostafrika. Probably in both cases the element of destructive intention aimed at a specific people or religious group needed for genocide was missing. For sheer numbers of deaths, the consequences of German reactions to the Maji-Maji rebellion in Ostafrika in 1903 were larger than those in Südwestafrika -- 200,000 deaths, mostly due to displacement & consequent famine & disease is a common estimate, but they are not usually treated as genocidal. Certainly of British and French atrocities there is no shortage. In the 1906-07 African rebellion in Natal, South Africa ("Bhambhatha's Rebellion"), Africans suffered about 3000 deaths and no injured i.e. the British & settler forces took no prisoners and killed the wounded. Zulu communities certainly also suffered excess deaths in those years and a few after as a result of scorched earth policies in some areas. Timothy Weiskel in his history of the Baulé people of Cote d'Ivoire has a frontispiece of French officers in white uniforms and pith helmets holding up a severed African man's head; Bhambhatha's head was made a trophy in Natal as the Xhosa king Hintsa's head had been in the Cape Colony in the 1830s. European colonialism everywhere in Africa was ugly and violent, and in the period between about 1895 and the early 1920s (esp. French West Africa for the later dates) often involved mass resistance and mass violent repression. It is possible that numbers of those actions should be reinterpreted as genocidal under the "in whole or in part" section of the definition of genocide.
Yet Südwestafrika in 1904-07 stands out as distinctive. I would be very interested to have Maria Stella cite another case involving a comparably high degree of ethnic specificity and extremely high proportion of population mortality involved in the genocide against the Herero.
Ngwe 19:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Kevin Shillington's History of Africa is a standard, widely used and respected English-language survey textbook published by Macmillan/Palgrave Macmillan, a highly reputable publisher. The 2005 second revised edition at page 341 quotes H. Bley, South-West Africa under German Rule, Heinemann, 1971, pp. 163-4 with the following translation of what Shillington calls the "notorious 'extermination' proclamation" of 1904 by General von Trotha, as follows:
Heinemann until recently was a distinguished publisher of scholarly African history, with high editorial standards, and absent contrary evidence I accept that this is an accurate translation. General von Trotha appears to have taken pains to make his meaning and intentions graphically clear. Those expressed intentions very precisely fit many of the defining characteristics of genocide under the later Convention against it (indeed to the point that I wonder if the proclamation might have been a reference document in the formulation of the Convention, though I have no evidence or knowledge of that). As we further know, von Trotha executed those intentions with brutal and savage efficiency. The fact that other human beings are and have been brutal, savage and efficiently so does not make it POV to recognize these facts about the actions by von Trotha and those under his command. The Herero suffered a genocide at the hands of the German government and its army.
My only question is about nesting: should there three articles, one on German colonialism (and perhaps post World War I settlers under South African rule), one on the Herero- and Namaqua-German Wars (which actually date back to the 1880s), and one on the genocide; or should there be two, with the wars nested in the colonialism article and the genocide separate; or should there be two with the general colonialism article separate, and the genocide nested within the wars? Ngwe 20:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Maria Stella has repeatedly emphasized the murders of 123 German civilian settlers by Herero people rebelling against German rule in Südwestafrika in 1904. Insofar as there may be dispute over including that fact in an account of the genocide, she undoubtedly is right to say that it should be included as an important context for the German administration's and army's actions. To the bare fact should be included information about who was killed if possible and some indication of the size of the settler population (this must have been a relatively large proportion who were killed, I'd guess more than 1% and less than 10%).
By the same token, the Herero actions also should be put in context. The German civilians in question had taken Herero lands with the backing of German military force, and the Herero violence in 1904 was not the first violence in the processes of colonial conflict. Moreover the civilians were part of a colonial effort that was systematically depriving the Herero of their means of livelihood, in which the settlers stood to benefit and aimed to benefit from African impoverishment not only in gaining African land, water etc., but their labor on exploitative and coercive terms. Nothing particularly unusual about that in any of the European colonies of settlement of course -- similar things were happening across British & Afrikaner southern Africa, and white settlers were extremely nervous about the possibility of African rebellion right across the region.
In any case, the context of those killings and of the wider political rebellion does not make the German response any less genocide. It does not justify genocide, or violence on the scale and of the form perpetrated under any other name Maria Stella might wish to give it. It does not even really explain the extremity of the German adminstration's reaction -- certainly it was a contributing element, but it is not sufficient in itself.
To get at explanation one would need to understand first of all whether von Trotha saw his actions as necessary to maintain German rule, and then consider what that means about European colonialism in Africa and more specifically German colonialism in Südwestafrika, if it required genocide to be maintained. Or did von Trotha see the actions as the most desirable among several options (extreme violence combined with leaving most of the population in place and vulnerable to exploitation, such as occurred in Natal or Southern Rhodesia, would seem to have been a possibility, for example), in which case the reasons for his choice need explication. Was it personal psychopathology? Or, more likely, was it an extreme variant of widely shared European racial and social evolutionary ideologies? In this respect I think Maria Stella's comparative observations have more merit -- if the form and relatively encompassing scope of the anti-Herero genocide were distinctive (though not unique certainly if one includes Native Americans in the picture), many of the ideas enabling it were not, at the date in question.
But, to repeat, the murders of 123 settlers do not in themselves make even explicable the genocidal actions of von Trotha, the German army and settler militia in killing or driving to their deaths tens of thousands of equally civilian Herero people, much less justify those actions.
Ngwe 00:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move to Herero and Namaqua Genocide. — Khoi khoi 04:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Herero and Namaqua Wars → Herero and Namaqua Genocide – Was listed on WP:RQM with multiple choices, Herero and Namaqua Genocide got the most supports, now relisting it with only one option to see if it really has support Dijxtra 11:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Add any additional comments
Those colonial germans were the most uncivilised barbarians to walk the planet.There was no decency or civility or humaness in their actions - I can clearly see who the sub-humans were.I only find it interesting given that the various germanic tribes within the ancient world were considered barbarians by the greco-roman world and yet here they are having finally become literate and having lost their tribal affinities and ways over hundreds of years only to end up acting like barbarians as they did thousands of years ago. 202.67.73.62 ( talk) 10:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
The article could probably afford to be longer, as every article can. Also, I wonder about the neutrality of the language used here; it being a "genocide", and colonialism having left a rather bad feeling, I am sure it is difficult to be 100% neutral. Nevertheless, I am simply saying that my B ranking here is based on length, details, pictures, references, and not on my judgement for or against the degree of neutrality here. LordAmeth 09:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Almost all the sources for this POV-laced wiki come from BBC. Additonally, I'm not sure that this can be called genocide outright, though it could be "debtably" so. I plan to research further. Additionally, I don't see that the Boer wars are called "Boer genocide" or anything similar, yet here this article uses it. More anti-German/pto-British bias/bigotry on wikipedia. Gee, what a shock. Ernham 17:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Alright, so far, it's not a genocide. It was more of an expulsion/forced relocation/massacre. Additionally, only men were killed, women and children were not. The Namaqua was also not a genocide, though suffered similarly.
Ernham
17:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
We need valid cites for actual casualties. The "whitaker report" is complete grabage. It's an op-ed piece and nothing more. The figures cited in it are from a guy that neither documents his sources nor his methodology in arriving at his figures. Worse yet, he does not appear to have any credibility to determine such matters. There are different numbers on this version of the wiki, which I'd also like to determine the validity of. Given hwo well the deaths were documented, it should be easy to find a governmental source for accurate casualties.
The entire article needs to be rewritten, much as Stella's version has been done, except for her lead in, which needs changing and perhaps a few other things. This article is as far removed as NPOV as you can get. It is digusting to see the wiki editors in here continue to abuse this wiki with complete lies/bogus cites. I knew wikipedia was bad, but this is just downright disturbing. Ernham 09:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Continually BBC is cited, while BBC has completely misrepresnted facts, omited important parts of cites, etc. For instance, a guy here keeps claiming that "germany called it genoce". Wrong. Germany had never officially recognized the actions there are genocide. One figure of the government cannot speak for the whole nation and an official recognition comes via the government proper(from berlin) NOT the words of one aid minister. Further, she never called it genocide, another thing the BBC gets wrong. She stated that her belief was that had those actons been carried out today it would be considered genocide." Similar issues are found throught this flawed article, mostly stemming from the use of essentially bogsus BBC cites and in some cases complete lies that are not cited/sourced. Ernham 09:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
the BBC are a reputable source, thats why they're the most respected broadcaster in the world
Instead of going into a continual edit war and throwing around insults, let's try focus on improving the article. One of the points of contention is whether Germany officially recognises the events as genocide. It does not. According to the BBC article, after the speech, Herero Paramount Chief Kuaima Riruako said "I once again invite the German government to accept the genocide of my people and engage in a dialogue with the Herero to iron out issues of mutual interest". Germany does not officially recognise it as genocide, and refuses to pay reparations. The aid minister who gave the speech seems to understand the magnitude of the atrocities, saying "We Germans recognize our historical, political, moral and ethical responsibility and guilt," and "Blinded by colonial delusion [Germans brought] violence, discrimination, racism and destruction" to the country. She also pointed out that it would be genocide today, a carefully ambiguous phrase. So on the point of whether Germany officially recognises it as a genocide, I agree with Ernham.
Now official recognition by governments, and use of the term by historians are two different things. There's little doubt the scale of the atrocities warrant the term genocide. The controversy seems to come from governments being unwilling to use the term for fear of reparations and other legal complexities, and revisionists wanting to deny the scale of events.
Ernham, where does your rewritten version of the von Trotha speech come from? Certainly not the BBC article that is listed as the citation for the speech! Please supply the correct source. Greenman 10:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
This is argumentative with the context of the article. This thype of comment, particularly as unsourced/ uncited, belongs on an article talk page or AfD, but not in the article itself. If you can cite a notable source as saying it, then that's a different matter. Jerry lavoie 22:37, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Sigh. This is a call for help to all interested editors to please help monitor the constant removal of cited references, in both this and the Lothar von Trotha articles, by a particular editor, and general attempts to force his own POV. The editor in question is abusive and not-responsive to constructive criticism, and has simply decided to opt out of discussions, and continually revert. Please see the relevant histories for the full discussions, and record of this users lack of constructive engagement. Greenman 17:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
On the point of fact, I'm not disputing that no country recognises the events as genocide. But perhaps there's a context to that? But when you include that fact and at the same time remove sources you don't like, it's simply easier to revert. Greenman 21:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
While Maria Stella and Ernham have been accused of revisionism, and whether this accusation is warranted or not is another discussion, but they DO have a point. Namely, that there has been an awful lot of Germanophobia in connection with the tragic events which befell the Namaqua and Herero. Therefore, I strongly advise aproaching sources on the topic with cautious skepticism and a grain of salt; avoid using obviously outrageous, sensationalist, or slanderous sources. Specifically, by Anti-German trash I do not refer to the contributions of any particular user or to anything in the article as is per se. I am referring to a slanderous, libelious book titled Germany's Black Holocaust, 1890-1945: The Untold Truth by Firpo W. Carr. For those who do not know, Dr. Carr is a fundamentalist Jehovah's Witness scholar. He is also a bigot, being a known homophobe (consider his homophobic rag, Are Gays Really 'Gay'? A Sociological, Scientific, and Theological Analysis essentially a rehash of reactionary anti-gay propaganda), but also an anti-white racist, albeit a covert one. As with far right-wingers and reactionaries of all races, ethnicities, and nationalities, who typically have prejudices for foreign groups, in America at least, far right-wing blacks generally come in two varieties: self-hating black people such as Clarence Thomas and Alan Keyes or rabidly anti-white such as Lois Farrakhan and many of his fellow Nation of Islam members. It may not be clear, but Firpo Carr fits in that latter category. I think it should be fairly obvious that Firpo W. Carr hates white people, but unlike Farrakhan and NoI who are honest enough to admit, Dr. Carr is too much of a coward to upset white Americans and whites in general so he plays the Uncle Tom role and directs all his hatred towards Germans (the easy scapegoat of the twentieth century) in this very Anglo-friendly anti-German rag. But why do I consider this work to be virulently anti-German? The answer lies in the title, "Germany's Black Holocaust, 1890-1945". From the period 1890-1945, Germany was under three different governments: the "Second Reich" under Kaiser Wilhelm II (until 1918), the Weimar Republic (1919-1933), and the Third Reich (Nazi Germany) under Adolf Hitler (1933-1945). Therefore, if as the sensationalistic title suggesting a continuous half century genocide of Black Africans by Germans took place and under no less than three different regimes, then the implication of blame rests, not with evil individuals or groups such as Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party or with any particular government, but with the German people, because the one continuity over that time period is that Germany was populated by essentially the same people speaking the same language. Thus, the message is clear. Firpo Carr really hates white people, but being too cowardly to express said hate rides the tide of Anti-German sentiment instead.
To be fair, I have not actually read the book (except for selections), the slanderous content should be apparent in the review. "In the 1890s Blacks were tortured in German concentration camps in Southwest Africa (now called Namibia)..." A blatant lie. There were no such camps before 1904, and despite unsupported allegations, there is no evidence that torture was employed in the camps (though undoubtedly prisoners suffered). Right off the bat, the author alleges sadism so as to warrant comparisons of the tragedy in Namibia with the Holocaust. "...when Adolph Hitler was only a child." Seeing as the atrocities did not start until 1904, Hitler would have been 15 at the time. Calling him a child is a stretch. "Colonial German doctors conducted unspeakable medical experiments on these emaciated helpless Africans decades before such atrocities were ever visited upon the Jews." Note that even the article Imperialism and Genocide in Namibia from Socialist Action, which compares the Herero and Namaqua Genocide to the Holocaust never mentions unspeakable medical experiments. They even mention Eugen Fischer, a teacher of Josef Mengele: "How did Adolph Hitler acquire many of his racist ideas? Strangely enough they came out of Africa in the form of a book written by Eugen Fischer, a prominent German scientist, who went to Namibia (South West Africa) in 1904 and made a study of the mixed ethnic children of German men and Herero women. The resulting book, "The Principles of Human Heredity of Race Hygiene," attempted to show that these children were mentally and physically inferior to German children. Hitler, while writing "Mein Kampf" in prison years later, read the book. By the time Hitler came to power, Fischer was chancellor at the University of Berlin and taught select Nazi physicians in medical school. One of his pupils was the later notorious Josef Mengele, a doctor at the Auschwitz concentration camp. This "scientific" racist study concerned the first genocide of the 20th century, that of the Herero people." But notice, not one mention in the article about any medical experiments performed on prisoners is to be found! Even so, I did not read the book (just excerpts), so although there are outright lies and fabrications about the incident in the editorial review on Amazon.com, admittedly none of these lies may have been produced by the author. The book ironically titled, "Germany's Black Holocaust, 1890-1945: The Untold Truth" should be retitled with "The Untold Truth" read "Mostly A Blatant Lie I Fabricated with Some True But Little Known (though mostly not connected) Facts Throughout". Even so, it should be obvious by the author's title, the context (his inappropriate connection between the massacres in Namibia and the Holocaust), and his overall bias that the author has a hatred for Germans (and probably whites in general).
Essentially, the author wrote about the Holocaust and included rather uncontroversial FACTS about the Black African victims of the Holocaust, who were clearly victims of a genocide with known motives, together with an account of genocidal activity against Herero and Namaqua in Namibia, which is factually based, in that these tribes were massacred in the tens of thousands (estimates of 60,000 to 75,000 killed from 1904-1907), but the exact nature of the genocide (including debatability of whether it qualifies, motives, etc.) is uncertain, albeit the author presents this later account with less factual data. The author then attempts to connect the tragedy in 1904-1907 Namibia with the Holocaust! (Lying through manipulation.) And he additionally deliberately fabricates dates (why 1890? Obviously to pad the length of this alleged continuous holocaust to over 50 years!) and if the editorial review is correct, invents fictitious accounts of torture committed for its own sake and medical experiments in colonial Namibia. (Outright lies!) If one wishes to read about the black African victims of the Holocaust and their experiences living in Nazi-controlled Europe, then there are plenty of great books to read, including... Destined to Witness: Growing Up Black in Nazi Germany by Hans J. Massaquoi, Hitler's Black Victims: The Historical Experience of Afro-Germans, European Blacks, Africans and African Americans in the Nazi Era by Clarence Lusane, The Other Victims: First-Person Stories of Non-Jews Persecuted by the Nazis by Ina R. Friedman, Other Germans: Black Germans and the Politics of Race, Gender, and Memory in the Third Reich (Social History, Popular Culture, and Politics in Germany) by Tina Marie Campt, Invisible Woman: Growing Up Black in Germany by Ika Hugel-Marshall, and Showing Our Colors: Afro-German Women Speak Out by Katharina Oguntoye. All of the aforementioned books are excellent in their own merits, certainly FAR better than Firpo Carr's BS! And they all have one thing in common, although many of the books detail the injustices and atrocities suffered by black Africans under the Nazis, not one mentions the 1904 massacres or the subsequent encampments. Why? Because the atrocious orders of General Lothar von Trotha and those commanded by Adolf Hitler have NOTHING IN COMMON! (Hint: There were no Nazis in 1904!)
One two-star reviewer said, "If one were to stick to the atrocities committed by colonial Germany in Namibia alone, it would have been enough to fill a book." Personally I disagree, because the massacre was but one 3-year event, not sure if it could fill a book. I suppose if somebody were to write a book that was well-researched, high in factual content, truthful, credible, and with a genuine sympathy for the victims (as opposed to mere finger-pointing), then maybe someone could write a book. Of course, such a book should not be quick to label the event a holocaust and connect it with Nazism. If an author agrees that the massacres and encampment qualifies as genocide, then s/he should provide reasons, including a definition of genocide. Also if one wished to write a book devoted to actions committed by the German general in colonial Namibia, s/he should attempt to understand the motives behind such atrocities. In either case, the tragedy of the Herero and Namaqua certainly deserves an entire chapter on its own, but that chapter should be in a book about the Scramble for Africa. It does not belong in a book about the Holocaust! The fate of the Herero and Nama peoples is but one sad event in the European colonization Africa. Were the author in question to devote a book entirely to the events here specified, then he would no doubt fill it with libel, slander, fabrication, and lies. No wonder why, as the reviewer complained, the author covered other topics in such a way that was "very difficult to follow and digest." Even the reviewer agreed that, "[The book] deserves a re-write with more facts, less emotion and a more organized approach. All of these stories must be told but not in one book." But I would not expect that from the author. Consider this example of Mr. Carr's agenda: "Germany controlled a large part of the African continent before World War I. This included territories in South West Africa, East Africa, and the territories of Togoland and Cameroon. The German Empire had expansionist plans in Africa during the beginning of the century. Documents discovered in 1918 showed plans for all African territories south of the equator as a greater German Empire. Germany lost its empire to Great Britain, France, and the Union of South Africa following the 1918 Peace Treaty." Notice how the author mentions the expansionism of the German Empire but neglects to mention the imperialism of ALL European powers. I agree that all forms of imperialism are bad, but how is German imperialism inherently worse than that of the British, French, Dutch, Belgians, Spanish, Portuguese, or Russians? The author never equates Anglo-French expansion in Africa with "lebensraum" nor does he mention the genocide committed by the Belgians in the Congo (equaling just over 100 Herero Namaqua Genocides) or the atrocities commited against African natives by the British in the Boer Wars or the fact that it were the Anglo-Dutch settlers of the Commonwealth of South Africa who were responsible for Apartheid?
Riding the bandwagon of Germanophobia, Firpo W. Carr produces a rag of Anglophillic Uncle Tom-ery and focuses his anti-white agenda on the Germans. (Due to the universal scapegoat role of Germany, when upset minorities point at whites, whites point ar Germans.) It should be pointed out that it were the Spanish and Portuguese (not blonde-haired, blue-eyed Germans) who were entirely responsible for the trans-Atlantic slave trade, the British who were slow to condemn slavery (and the Anglophone US maintaining it until 1865, about 89 years since the Revolution). The French also maintained slavery and oppression in the Carribean. But the Germans were relative late comers to the scene, having no presense until the turn of the last century. It is understandable why many people of Black African descent would be angry at whites for injustices and atrocities commited against their ancestors. (And Firpo W. Carr strikes me as a particularly angry black man, albeit in a more discreet manner. If not for the fact that Firpo Carr is a Christian fundamentalist, and Farrakhan a Muslim one, and that fanatics of different creeds generally do not get along, they would otherwise make great allies.) Why then single out Germany? For a rebuttal to Mr. Carr's rediculous conclusion, I recommend the essay "The Germans and History" by the brilliant Thomas Sowell (who just so happens to be African-American). You can find it in his book Black Rednecks and White Liberals. So what is the point of this rather long-winded rant? Basically, my point is (a) watch out for sensationalistic sources, often with an agenda, occasionally containing fabrications and downright lies, remaining skeptical and taking information with a grain of salt as required so as to ensure credibility of facts or that data is reliable and not exaggerated, (b) be careful not to spread unreliable information which could be used as a source for slander, like Firpo Carr's hateful book.
What, then are my suggestions for improvement?
Me thinks that's another German myth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.2.124.254 ( talk) 21:41, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Me thinks you have your head in the sand.Those colonial germans were the most uncivilised barbarians to walk the planet.There was no decency or civility or humaness in their actions - I can clearly see who the sub-humans were.I only find it interesting given that the various germanic tribes within the ancient world were considered barbarians by the greco-roman world and yet here they were having finally become literate and having lost their tribal affinities and ways over hundreds of years only to end up acting like barbarians as they did thousands of years ago. 202.67.73.62 ( talk) 10:50, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Read up on "Shepherd Stuurman" for the resistance efforts made against the namaqua genocide which was instigated following the genocide and massacre of the Herero.I have Herero and Nama ancestry as well as anglo saxon,dutch,welsh,irish and unfortunately german ancestry.The "prophet" stuurman tried to liberate his entire country with the little power he had from the onslaught of invading armed germans and died in name of that cause he is one of my ancestors. 58.178.18.221 ( talk) 13:20, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Genocide appears to be an on-going tactic by many countries in the colonial era. In fact, the United States could be responsible for a genocide starting earlier than the 1904-1907 period … where the Philippine Pacification program was started in 1902 (it went from 1902-1913), the war itself (possibly along with civilian reduction) started in 1899 (based on evidence I see, it appears to what happened in the Philippines clearly constitutes genocide as defined clearly by the U.N.). Making calls one who is first or second, sounds more like finger pointing than actual stating of NPOV fact. Nonprof. Frinkus ( talk) 21:36, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
The genocide allegation is bullshit, since there is no evidence for it. -- 41.15.7.218 ( talk) 23:47, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
A genocide requires government plans, and with the German government countermanding that order very quickly, it seems that "genocide" might be the wrong word, despite the Whitaker Report. UN Reports are not biblical injunctions (remember the old Zionism is Racism thingy, not withdrawn?). Anyway, I appreciate the hard work of editors in trying to maintain a scholarly angle, but feel that here, as in so many Wikipedia articles, the foam-at-the-mouth zealots have won, and wikipedia starts becoming increasingly like the Great Soviet Encyclopedia, with a lot of useful data, but since you never know where it is, and what's P.C. bullshit, it's best to avoid citing it in your college essays. There should be a rule that no matter what the issue, at least TWO interpretations should be presented, so readers can form their own opinion. Karpaten1 ( talk) 19:26, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
<- (edit conflict) No, that's not the way me (and probably not Greenman) are using the term "reliable sources". Nobody said anything about tv or newspapers. The link I provided is to numerous academic works. You keep on putting words in people's mouths and constructing strawman after strawman.
And sure, to the extent "context" is discussed in sources, it may be included in the article - though I think you'll find that most of the sources are pretty unequivocal in calling what this article describes "genocide".
And WP:RS and WP:V ARE in fact fundamental Wikipedia policies (rather than simply guidelines) and as such DO constitute an established and uncontested "orthodoxy".
As far as your last paragraph goes - the whole point here is that I am NOT defining "genocide" according to my "own ad hoc ideas and prejudices". In fact, I haven't even defined it at all. I have merely pointed out that the term "genocide" is widely used in reliable sources (not just tv, newspaper etc.). If you have a reliable source that states explicitly that these events do not meet the Nuremberg or Hague definition of the term then that of course can be included - though I think the only thing you'll find is that the German government has been unwilling to recognize them as such. But so far it seems like the only person trying to define genocide according to their own ad hoc ideas and prejudices is you, in order to avoid including the term in the article - despite what reliable sources actually say. radek ( talk) 06:45, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I find it unbelievable that there are still people, and apparently no small number of people, who think that the German colonial empire is worth defending. Lord knows that Britain is cursed with empire-apologists, even though its empire expired about 50 years ago. The Germans' empire collapsed over 90 years ago!
The excreble attempt to deny this genocide has no place on wikipedia. If you disagree with wikipedia's RS policy, go ahead and try to get it repealed. You won't be able to, of course, and that's why you're complaining about it here. But that won't work either, so you might as well give up. BillMasen ( talk) 10:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)