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The "criticism" section of this page, IMHO is well written, well documented, and deserves to be there. But I gotta say that it is so long, and there is so little on the other side, that it seems unbalanced to me. I'm not a von Karajan fan and I'm not enough of a classical music cognoscenti to write any balancing paragraphs, but isn't there anyone who could speak with sincere and well-informed conviction of von Karajan's status as clearly the towering figure in orchestral music in the closing decades of the twentieth century?
I knew an old friend of my parents, now deceased, who was Jewish and escaped from Nazi Germany during the war... who nevertheless loved music and believed firmly that von Karajan was head and shoulders above all other contemporary conductors and truly set the musical standard. Dpbsmith 14:18, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Certainly way too long and reads a little hysterical. Gingermint ( talk) 04:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
75.138.255.225 ( talk) 05:51, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Just as a piece of trivia, the "von" and "kara" particles in his name are contrasting one to other:
(I'm not sure whether this is encyclopedic enough to be included in the article).
The article currently says that "he was born /.../ in a Aromanian family /.../". I've read an article on Karajan in the Slovenian leading newspaper Delo that says that Herbert's mother Marta Kosmač was indeed Slovene by nationality. Because this is the first time I hear this and because of the general style of that particular article, I didn't want to correct the info in the wiki-article, but I wonder if anyone knows anything more on this issue? -- romanm (talk) 11:26, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
They were all mixed up in the old KUK Austro-Hung. Empire weren' they? According to Karl-Markus Gauß he was really a Vlach/ Aromanian see article if you understand a bit of Hungarian . The article was originally published in the Austrian paper Der Standard Abject 11:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm... To say this is really going very far out on a limb, I think, given all the negative things critics have said about Karajan's conducting.
If my anonymous colleague really wants to put this in the article, perhaps it might be best say that there are lots of individual people who think he was the greatest (see for instance Dpbsmith's remarks above), but not imply that this is a consensus. Opus33 05:21, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Herbert von Karajan (Karayan) had ARMENIAN origin - not Slavic.
There are many references (books) published in the Soviet era about it and it's almost common knowledge. He conducted Aram Khatchaturian's work including Spartacus, Gayane ballet etc.. And for a legend like him this written 'gossip' on this same page about his personal relationships are totally irrelevant and whoever wrote it has very poor taste, poor knowledge and no understanding of Karajan's greatness. Taline —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taline Temizian ( talk • contribs) 02:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Regarding him being one of the best of the 20th Century, I don't think it is much of a thing for intelligent people to bother with. It is easily said he was one of the best conductors of all time. Time has held this out. We can't say he was the best (certainly to some) but there is no serious doubt one of the very best. As for critics... well everyone's gotten all sorts of bad reviews. That doesn't mean anything Gingermint ( talk) 04:50, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Oh, and the Armenian thing is really interesting. Gingermint ( talk) 04:52, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Oh, and as for the Armenian
Very surprised to not see this included. Is that purposely? In any case it did cause alot hype in the mid 80s as Karajan showed excessive favouritism to a young female clarinetist by the name of Sabine Meyer. Not sure what happened, but another point is that any young performer that Karajan pointed to would be sure of immediate fame overnight. Any takers out there on Sabine Meyer?
She was a young clarinetist who was placed on a probationary position for the Berlin Philharmonic around 1984 (she played in the orchestra on their US tour at that time). If approved, she would have been the first female member of the orchestra. While the players respected her talent- which is enormous- they felt she didn't "blend" well with them and ultimately turned her down for full membership. Needless to say, this caused a furor with outside observers due to its sexist overtones. For whatever reason, Karajan had staked a lot of his personal influence with the orchestra on getting her approved and when it did not happen, there was an immediate feud that exploded between him and the Berliners. He canceled tours, reduced his conducting responsibilities, canceled an engagement with them only to hire the Vienna Philharmonic- their arch rivals-for the engagement and ultimately resigned his position as Conductor for Life. Some who knew him, like the conductor Erich Leinsdorf felt the stress of this ultimately contributed to his fatal heart attack. Whatever the truth of that, it was a sad ending to a tremendous career. As for Sabine Meyer, she went on to a very successful career as one of the most respected solo clarinetists. Perhaps that is an indication that she wouldn't have fit well with an orchestra but of course, many orchestra players do have solo careers. Lfkl ( talk) 04:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)lfkl
Deleted reference to Karajan conducting the Orchestre de Paris in the 1948-53 time period as it did not yet exist. Grover cleveland 20:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I have moved the following section from the main article.
Herbert von Karajan's ancestors came from Greek-Macedonia, Kozani specifically and arrived in Vienna via the electorate of Saxony - the family's original name was "Karajannis". From the Greek "Karajannis," it became the noble "von" Karajan
It is the only edit by an anon user, and has no references. Besides, it contradicts an older version of the text, which states that his family originated in Ioannina in the Greek province of Epirus. If somebody has a good reference for which story is correct, feel free to update the article. -- Valentinian 00:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The material about Bruckner's 5th and 8th symphonies makes no sense. The editor speculates that the length of a CD was chosen to be 74 minutes so they could fit on two CDs instead of three. That would be true even if the length of a CD was 40 minutes! In fact, many recordings of Bruckner 5 and 8 fit on one CD - but not Karajan's.
I propose that this material be removed. Grover cleveland 02:00, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
The current material about Karajan's alleged role in setting the length of the CD is totally unsupported by references. Please could someone fix this: otherwise I propose we delete this whole topic under WP:Verifiability. Grover cleveland 10:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following material from the article until it can be verified:
Grover cleveland 05:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
The NYTimes August 15, 2006 "The Nazis and the Salzburg Festival: A Disputed Film History", article is primarily about the Salzburg Festival. But it contains this quote:
Seems there are facts here which can be verified (which the NYTimes generally does) and added to the politics section. There seems to be more room for ambiguity than the article currently allows for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.0.188.159 ( talk • contribs) 11:47, 15 August 2006
It appears that the Times (and perhaps Steinberg) were wrong on both counts. HvK filed a preliminary application only in 1933 from Salzburg, but joined for real in 1935, before the Annexation but after he is commonly supposed to have joined. (Oct 2007) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Concordia88 (
talk •
contribs)
22:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
You can find an article of John Tagliabue in NYT: March 17, 1983 (
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50716F63E5D0C748DDDAA0894DB484D81&scp=2&sq=Karajan+Nazi&st=nyt), which is citated by Fred K. Prieberg "Handbuch Deutsche Musiker": Karajan's agent forbid the NYT to publish anything in connection to his Nazi past. Perhaps there is something other interesting in: (
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70B10F7395D0C748EDDAA0894DB484D81&scp=3&sq=Karajan+Nazi&st=nyt). --
Andrea 1903 (
talk)
03:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
The Nazi part of the article was incredibly long. Gingermint ( talk) 04:56, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be a nice addition if someone could dig up some of Karajan's favorite pieces of music? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Melnicki ( talk • contribs) 20:28, 5 January 2007
Does anyone else think that James Wierzbicki article is a bit much? I think it's important to note that Karajan had his admirers and critcs, but this is one of only 4 external links and it's pretty much a tirade against the man.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.127.79.8 ( talk • contribs) 15:23, 31 May 2007
I couldn't think of anywhere to ask that question: is there ANY performance of Karajan conducting a Rachmaninoff piece other than Piano Concerto No.2 with Alexis Weissenberg? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightspirit ( talk • contribs) 19:56, 2 June 2007
Was Karajan a sexist? Because, as far as i know, there had been no female in his orchestra other than Sabine Meyer.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightspirit ( talk • contribs) 20:33, 2 June 2007
The Meyer story is correct - he wanted her, the orchestra didn't. It pretty much lead to him quitting in the end, although officially it was for health reasons. Since the Berlin Phil had never had a woman up until that point, her inclusion actually suggests that if anything he was anti-sexist. The Vienna Phil didn't have any women until 2001 I believe, when they were pretty much told that by law they had to stop excluding female players. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.127.79.8 ( talk • contribs) 17:47, 11 August 2007
In the infobox on the right it states in the list of orchestras, etc, that von Karajan was associated with the Berlin Phil, etc, and the Vienna Symphony Orchestra, not the Vienna Philharmonic. I'd always known about the Vienna Phil connection but have never heard about him ever being connected with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra. Am I missing something or is this a mistake, i.e. someone's put symphony instead of philharmonic. ? Mickthefish 18:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Karajan was indeed conductor of the Vienna Symphony Orchestra in the late 40's and early 50's. That was when his arch-rival Furtwangler was still conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic and kept Karajan out until his death in 1954. As for the Vienna Philharmonic, though Karajan performed with them often, he never held a position there as the VPO did not (and does not) have a 'permanent/principal conductor'. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Tonyhung (
talk •
contribs) 02:51, 31 July 2007
There is an excellent free online discography at the Herbert von Karajan Centrum's website, which currently offers details of over 1200 recordings featuring the conductor. Given this, the discography in this article, containing two CDs and four videos, seems a little embarrassing. I'm going to be bold and delete the current discography section and replace it with a link to the complete online discography. Grover cleveland 17:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
"Karajan’s Heldensonate, composed shortly after the German invasion of Austria, and which he had originally titled Anschluß Sonate, was performed in 1938 at one of the Wahnfried receptions Hitler attended annually. That work's only published recording was an April Fool's Day selection for the MusicWeb reviewing site. Its provenance is unclear, and it is not even clear that this disc has ever actually been auditioned." Heh
I find this article very biased against Karajan. Had I not known who Karajan was, upon concluding this article I would be under the impression that not only was Karajan a voluntary and supportive Nazi, he is egotistical and very self-serving. I believe that the author of this article has a very negative take on Karajan and is voicing their negative opinion in the article. Often most of the negative claims are not backed by citations.
Particularly in the Professional Behaviour section, it is very demeaning. There are only two citations used in the entirety of the section and it is not even in regards to major personality-defining trait. For example, the negative connotation to Karajan saying that there is no time for another take of Beethoven's Triple Concerto because of the need for their photographs to be taken could very well be biased. There very well could have been no time for another take, especially if their photographs were pre-paid; furthermore, there is no citation verifying this claim. The following paragraph begins with "Finally, Karajan was held by some[attribution needed] to be excessively egotistical." Who were these people? How many of these people are there? I am willing to say that there are just as many people who refute this claim. I could find just as many people who would say that he was not egotistical. The author continues the negative, un-cited, generalisations with quoting unknown critics by saying that neither he nor Leonard Bernstein are "unequaled in their mastery of podium histrionics". Once more: who are these critics, when did they say it? For that to be an accurate quote, the pluralisation of critic suggests that multiple critics said that exact statement; I would like to see this properly cited. I also fail to understand how Karajan may be considered as egotistical because of his tendency to conduct with his eyes closed. I suppose that the author may not understand passion. It does not make a singer egotistical because they sing with their eyes closed. When concentrating on particular things such as when the religious pray or meditate it does not make them egotistical; it is them making a connection with their emotions or whatever it is that they are trying to concentrate on.
In the Musicianship section of the article we find negative connotations as well:
"There is widespread agreement that Herbert von Karajan had a special gift for extracting beautiful sounds from an orchestra. Opinion varies concerning the greater aesthetic ends to which The Karajan Sound was applied. The American critic Harvey Sachs criticized the Karajan approach as follows:
Karajan seemed to have opted instead for an all-purpose, highly refined, lacquered, calculatedly voluptuous sound that could be applied, with the stylistic modifications he deemed appropriate, to Bach and Puccini, Mozart and Mahler, Beethoven and Wagner, Schumann and Stravinsky... many of his performances had a prefabricated, artificial quality that those of Toscanini, Furtwängler, and others never had... most of Karajan's records are exaggeratedly polished, a sort of sonic counterpart to the films and photographs of Leni Riefenstahl.[citation needed]
However, it has been argued by commentator Jim Svejda and others that Karajan's pre-1970 manner did not seem as calculatedly polished as it is later alleged to have become.[citation needed]"
Again we see that the author seems to be anti-Karajan. What are the varying opinions concerning the "greater aesthetic ends to which the Karajan Sound was applied"? The author then focuses the rest of Karajan's musicianship as being one that is artificial and exaggerated by quoting un-cited critics and using weasel wording. There are just as many arguments that could counter these claims.
Last time I checked, weasel words are not accepted on Wikipedia - especially without citations.
I've done some to correct grammar and to fix matters of anti Karajan bias.
Gingermint (
talk)
04:59, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
The recording of the introduction to Thus Spake Zarathustra normally given in connection with the 2001 film is the Deutsche Grammophon 1959 recording of the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Karl Bohm, not the later one on Decca by Karajan. Hence the "Popular Culture" entry in the main article is wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.12.115.16 ( talk) 04:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
The Karajan Decca recording was used in the film, but the Bohm one featured on the soundtrack LPs because Decca didn't want their recordings associated with science fiction. So the info here is correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.127.79.8 ( talk) 22:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I find no reference to this composer in the entry on Karajan, although he does have an entry for himself on Wikipedia. Maybe the link to the Wikipedia entry on Banfield in the "See Also" section should be removed? 76.243.124.20 ( talk) 01:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
How is Karajan pronounced? can someone add that? Thanks. -- Rajah ( talk) 16:38, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Ka-ra-jan; all "a" like "hut" and "but", short and clipped; "j" like "y" (yes, yellow)-- Andrea 1903 ( talk) 02:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
The part on professional behavior is heavily biased and highly selective. The section is a collection of one-sided, negative aspects of professional behavior and does not reflect the professional achievements of this conductor. The critical portions are given undue attention and all other aspects are dropped.
Similarly, the article is about a conductor and not about a politician. It is highly questionable, if the section on party membership has the same length as the section on musicianship. Moreover, the former section (party membership) lacks many citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.139.199.30 ( talk) 19:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
The article was childishly slanted. I've fixed some things but I am sufficiently displeased with the article to suggest a thorough rewrite.
Gingermint (
talk)
05:04, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
According to [2], [3] and [4] Herbert's mother was a Slovene. Do you have any sources disproving the research by Branka Lapajne and others that have led you to claim she was possibly Slovene? I also don't see why Hugo Wolf would not be notable. If you think he is not notable, I invite you to nominate his article for deletion. I also invite you to list at least some of the hundreds of notable musicians or even other notable people that Karajan's family has been related to as you claim. -- Eleassar my talk 19:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Raborg ( talk) 19:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Another source is given in the very article: "Towards the end of 2005, I learnt of an article by prof. Dr. Heinz Schöny, long-time custodian and advisor in the history museum in Vienna, who wrote about Karajan’s Slovenian origins in that same daily [ Delo], March 20, 1985."
In addition, there is no good reason to assume his mother was of Serbian or Slovak descent. His great grandfather was Mihael Kosmač, which is a Slovene name and surname. The family originates from Mojstrana that does not have either Serbian or Slovak minority.
As for the language, the cited article says "today it is evident that Karajan knew Slovenian, a fact confirmed by his very good friend and conductor Carlos Kleiber." Such claims can be verified. -- Eleassar my talk 20:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, I've modified the article. You're still not satisfied? What's wrong with the current Herbert's family from the maternal side, through his grandfather who was born in the village of Mojstrana, Duchy of Carinthia (today in Slovenia), had Slovenian origins according to one modern genealogical research, thus contrasting with the traditional view which expressed a Serbian or simply a Slavic origin of his mother.? Raborg ( talk) 20:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Isn't this section a bit short? His nazi membership that lasted for six years is more important than fourty years when he was regarded as most influential conductor alive? Anyway, here is example of much better written biograpy: http://www.enotes.com/music-encyclopedia/karajan-herbert-von —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.143.114.163 ( talk) 02:01, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Sections of this article are way too long and a rewrite is needed. Gingermint ( talk) 05:05, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
(The Blue Danube waltz) was used by director Stanley Kubrick in his science-fiction film 2001: A Space Odyssey (with Kubrick animating the sequence to match the prerecorded music, the opposite of the usual practice for soundtracks).
This is not nearly as uncommon as this quote implies. It is true only for music specifically commissioned for a soundtrack, where the music is usually not finished until the picture editing is nearing completion.
But in cases like this, where an existing track is licensed for use, it's very common to cut your picture to the audio, particularly when you're shooting animation. Hairhorn ( talk) 18:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
There are many weasel words, especially in the Nazi membership section. "Critics", "supporters", "many people" all need to be defined or simply removed. 69.245.89.129 ( talk) 05:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Kudos to whoever that added the Karajan/Beethoven 5th video - it shows Karajan at the peak of his career with all of the famed intensity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.123.183.100 ( talk • contribs) 01:26, 26 September 2006
Gossips
Some critics, particularly British critic Norman Lebrecht, charged Karajan with initiating a devastating inflationary spiral in performance fees. During his tenure as director of publicly-funded performing organizations such as the Vienna Philharmonic, the Berlin Philharmonic, and the Salzburg Festival, he started paying guest stars exorbitantly, as well as ratcheting up his own remuneration:
- Once he possessed orchestras he could have them produce discs, taking the vulture's share of royalties for himself and rerecording favorite pieces for every new technology: digital LPs, CD, videotape, laserdisc. In addition to making it difficult for other conductors to record with his orchestras, von Karajan also drove up the prices that he would be paid and thus other conductors wanted. [1]
During a recording session of the Beethoven Triple Concerto with David Oistrakh, Sviatoslav Richter and Mstislav Rostropovich, pianist Richter demanded an extra take, to which Karajan replied "No, no, we haven't got time, we've still got to do the photographs." [2] This did not prevent violinist Oistrakh from saying, when Karajan turned 65, that he was "the greatest living conductor, a master in every style." citation needed
I removed the above section and have placed it here for discussion and potential improvement. There's certainly a place in the article for a discussion of Karajan's role in fee inflation, but there isn't enough balance or sourcing here to stop it from being POV. In particular the anecdote about the photographs seems like disconnected sniping. Too, "Gossips" seems like a bad section title. Perhaps if there IS more info on this topic, the section could be titled 'Performance Fees' or something like that. Leoniceno ( talk) 01:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The "criticism" section of this page, IMHO is well written, well documented, and deserves to be there. But I gotta say that it is so long, and there is so little on the other side, that it seems unbalanced to me. I'm not a von Karajan fan and I'm not enough of a classical music cognoscenti to write any balancing paragraphs, but isn't there anyone who could speak with sincere and well-informed conviction of von Karajan's status as clearly the towering figure in orchestral music in the closing decades of the twentieth century?
I knew an old friend of my parents, now deceased, who was Jewish and escaped from Nazi Germany during the war... who nevertheless loved music and believed firmly that von Karajan was head and shoulders above all other contemporary conductors and truly set the musical standard. Dpbsmith 14:18, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Certainly way too long and reads a little hysterical. Gingermint ( talk) 04:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
75.138.255.225 ( talk) 05:51, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Just as a piece of trivia, the "von" and "kara" particles in his name are contrasting one to other:
(I'm not sure whether this is encyclopedic enough to be included in the article).
The article currently says that "he was born /.../ in a Aromanian family /.../". I've read an article on Karajan in the Slovenian leading newspaper Delo that says that Herbert's mother Marta Kosmač was indeed Slovene by nationality. Because this is the first time I hear this and because of the general style of that particular article, I didn't want to correct the info in the wiki-article, but I wonder if anyone knows anything more on this issue? -- romanm (talk) 11:26, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
They were all mixed up in the old KUK Austro-Hung. Empire weren' they? According to Karl-Markus Gauß he was really a Vlach/ Aromanian see article if you understand a bit of Hungarian . The article was originally published in the Austrian paper Der Standard Abject 11:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm... To say this is really going very far out on a limb, I think, given all the negative things critics have said about Karajan's conducting.
If my anonymous colleague really wants to put this in the article, perhaps it might be best say that there are lots of individual people who think he was the greatest (see for instance Dpbsmith's remarks above), but not imply that this is a consensus. Opus33 05:21, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Herbert von Karajan (Karayan) had ARMENIAN origin - not Slavic.
There are many references (books) published in the Soviet era about it and it's almost common knowledge. He conducted Aram Khatchaturian's work including Spartacus, Gayane ballet etc.. And for a legend like him this written 'gossip' on this same page about his personal relationships are totally irrelevant and whoever wrote it has very poor taste, poor knowledge and no understanding of Karajan's greatness. Taline —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taline Temizian ( talk • contribs) 02:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Regarding him being one of the best of the 20th Century, I don't think it is much of a thing for intelligent people to bother with. It is easily said he was one of the best conductors of all time. Time has held this out. We can't say he was the best (certainly to some) but there is no serious doubt one of the very best. As for critics... well everyone's gotten all sorts of bad reviews. That doesn't mean anything Gingermint ( talk) 04:50, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Oh, and the Armenian thing is really interesting. Gingermint ( talk) 04:52, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Oh, and as for the Armenian
Very surprised to not see this included. Is that purposely? In any case it did cause alot hype in the mid 80s as Karajan showed excessive favouritism to a young female clarinetist by the name of Sabine Meyer. Not sure what happened, but another point is that any young performer that Karajan pointed to would be sure of immediate fame overnight. Any takers out there on Sabine Meyer?
She was a young clarinetist who was placed on a probationary position for the Berlin Philharmonic around 1984 (she played in the orchestra on their US tour at that time). If approved, she would have been the first female member of the orchestra. While the players respected her talent- which is enormous- they felt she didn't "blend" well with them and ultimately turned her down for full membership. Needless to say, this caused a furor with outside observers due to its sexist overtones. For whatever reason, Karajan had staked a lot of his personal influence with the orchestra on getting her approved and when it did not happen, there was an immediate feud that exploded between him and the Berliners. He canceled tours, reduced his conducting responsibilities, canceled an engagement with them only to hire the Vienna Philharmonic- their arch rivals-for the engagement and ultimately resigned his position as Conductor for Life. Some who knew him, like the conductor Erich Leinsdorf felt the stress of this ultimately contributed to his fatal heart attack. Whatever the truth of that, it was a sad ending to a tremendous career. As for Sabine Meyer, she went on to a very successful career as one of the most respected solo clarinetists. Perhaps that is an indication that she wouldn't have fit well with an orchestra but of course, many orchestra players do have solo careers. Lfkl ( talk) 04:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)lfkl
Deleted reference to Karajan conducting the Orchestre de Paris in the 1948-53 time period as it did not yet exist. Grover cleveland 20:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I have moved the following section from the main article.
Herbert von Karajan's ancestors came from Greek-Macedonia, Kozani specifically and arrived in Vienna via the electorate of Saxony - the family's original name was "Karajannis". From the Greek "Karajannis," it became the noble "von" Karajan
It is the only edit by an anon user, and has no references. Besides, it contradicts an older version of the text, which states that his family originated in Ioannina in the Greek province of Epirus. If somebody has a good reference for which story is correct, feel free to update the article. -- Valentinian 00:23, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The material about Bruckner's 5th and 8th symphonies makes no sense. The editor speculates that the length of a CD was chosen to be 74 minutes so they could fit on two CDs instead of three. That would be true even if the length of a CD was 40 minutes! In fact, many recordings of Bruckner 5 and 8 fit on one CD - but not Karajan's.
I propose that this material be removed. Grover cleveland 02:00, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
The current material about Karajan's alleged role in setting the length of the CD is totally unsupported by references. Please could someone fix this: otherwise I propose we delete this whole topic under WP:Verifiability. Grover cleveland 10:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following material from the article until it can be verified:
Grover cleveland 05:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
The NYTimes August 15, 2006 "The Nazis and the Salzburg Festival: A Disputed Film History", article is primarily about the Salzburg Festival. But it contains this quote:
Seems there are facts here which can be verified (which the NYTimes generally does) and added to the politics section. There seems to be more room for ambiguity than the article currently allows for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.0.188.159 ( talk • contribs) 11:47, 15 August 2006
It appears that the Times (and perhaps Steinberg) were wrong on both counts. HvK filed a preliminary application only in 1933 from Salzburg, but joined for real in 1935, before the Annexation but after he is commonly supposed to have joined. (Oct 2007) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Concordia88 (
talk •
contribs)
22:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
You can find an article of John Tagliabue in NYT: March 17, 1983 (
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50716F63E5D0C748DDDAA0894DB484D81&scp=2&sq=Karajan+Nazi&st=nyt), which is citated by Fred K. Prieberg "Handbuch Deutsche Musiker": Karajan's agent forbid the NYT to publish anything in connection to his Nazi past. Perhaps there is something other interesting in: (
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70B10F7395D0C748EDDAA0894DB484D81&scp=3&sq=Karajan+Nazi&st=nyt). --
Andrea 1903 (
talk)
03:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
The Nazi part of the article was incredibly long. Gingermint ( talk) 04:56, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be a nice addition if someone could dig up some of Karajan's favorite pieces of music? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Melnicki ( talk • contribs) 20:28, 5 January 2007
Does anyone else think that James Wierzbicki article is a bit much? I think it's important to note that Karajan had his admirers and critcs, but this is one of only 4 external links and it's pretty much a tirade against the man.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.127.79.8 ( talk • contribs) 15:23, 31 May 2007
I couldn't think of anywhere to ask that question: is there ANY performance of Karajan conducting a Rachmaninoff piece other than Piano Concerto No.2 with Alexis Weissenberg? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightspirit ( talk • contribs) 19:56, 2 June 2007
Was Karajan a sexist? Because, as far as i know, there had been no female in his orchestra other than Sabine Meyer.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightspirit ( talk • contribs) 20:33, 2 June 2007
The Meyer story is correct - he wanted her, the orchestra didn't. It pretty much lead to him quitting in the end, although officially it was for health reasons. Since the Berlin Phil had never had a woman up until that point, her inclusion actually suggests that if anything he was anti-sexist. The Vienna Phil didn't have any women until 2001 I believe, when they were pretty much told that by law they had to stop excluding female players. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.127.79.8 ( talk • contribs) 17:47, 11 August 2007
In the infobox on the right it states in the list of orchestras, etc, that von Karajan was associated with the Berlin Phil, etc, and the Vienna Symphony Orchestra, not the Vienna Philharmonic. I'd always known about the Vienna Phil connection but have never heard about him ever being connected with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra. Am I missing something or is this a mistake, i.e. someone's put symphony instead of philharmonic. ? Mickthefish 18:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Karajan was indeed conductor of the Vienna Symphony Orchestra in the late 40's and early 50's. That was when his arch-rival Furtwangler was still conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic and kept Karajan out until his death in 1954. As for the Vienna Philharmonic, though Karajan performed with them often, he never held a position there as the VPO did not (and does not) have a 'permanent/principal conductor'. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Tonyhung (
talk •
contribs) 02:51, 31 July 2007
There is an excellent free online discography at the Herbert von Karajan Centrum's website, which currently offers details of over 1200 recordings featuring the conductor. Given this, the discography in this article, containing two CDs and four videos, seems a little embarrassing. I'm going to be bold and delete the current discography section and replace it with a link to the complete online discography. Grover cleveland 17:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
"Karajan’s Heldensonate, composed shortly after the German invasion of Austria, and which he had originally titled Anschluß Sonate, was performed in 1938 at one of the Wahnfried receptions Hitler attended annually. That work's only published recording was an April Fool's Day selection for the MusicWeb reviewing site. Its provenance is unclear, and it is not even clear that this disc has ever actually been auditioned." Heh
I find this article very biased against Karajan. Had I not known who Karajan was, upon concluding this article I would be under the impression that not only was Karajan a voluntary and supportive Nazi, he is egotistical and very self-serving. I believe that the author of this article has a very negative take on Karajan and is voicing their negative opinion in the article. Often most of the negative claims are not backed by citations.
Particularly in the Professional Behaviour section, it is very demeaning. There are only two citations used in the entirety of the section and it is not even in regards to major personality-defining trait. For example, the negative connotation to Karajan saying that there is no time for another take of Beethoven's Triple Concerto because of the need for their photographs to be taken could very well be biased. There very well could have been no time for another take, especially if their photographs were pre-paid; furthermore, there is no citation verifying this claim. The following paragraph begins with "Finally, Karajan was held by some[attribution needed] to be excessively egotistical." Who were these people? How many of these people are there? I am willing to say that there are just as many people who refute this claim. I could find just as many people who would say that he was not egotistical. The author continues the negative, un-cited, generalisations with quoting unknown critics by saying that neither he nor Leonard Bernstein are "unequaled in their mastery of podium histrionics". Once more: who are these critics, when did they say it? For that to be an accurate quote, the pluralisation of critic suggests that multiple critics said that exact statement; I would like to see this properly cited. I also fail to understand how Karajan may be considered as egotistical because of his tendency to conduct with his eyes closed. I suppose that the author may not understand passion. It does not make a singer egotistical because they sing with their eyes closed. When concentrating on particular things such as when the religious pray or meditate it does not make them egotistical; it is them making a connection with their emotions or whatever it is that they are trying to concentrate on.
In the Musicianship section of the article we find negative connotations as well:
"There is widespread agreement that Herbert von Karajan had a special gift for extracting beautiful sounds from an orchestra. Opinion varies concerning the greater aesthetic ends to which The Karajan Sound was applied. The American critic Harvey Sachs criticized the Karajan approach as follows:
Karajan seemed to have opted instead for an all-purpose, highly refined, lacquered, calculatedly voluptuous sound that could be applied, with the stylistic modifications he deemed appropriate, to Bach and Puccini, Mozart and Mahler, Beethoven and Wagner, Schumann and Stravinsky... many of his performances had a prefabricated, artificial quality that those of Toscanini, Furtwängler, and others never had... most of Karajan's records are exaggeratedly polished, a sort of sonic counterpart to the films and photographs of Leni Riefenstahl.[citation needed]
However, it has been argued by commentator Jim Svejda and others that Karajan's pre-1970 manner did not seem as calculatedly polished as it is later alleged to have become.[citation needed]"
Again we see that the author seems to be anti-Karajan. What are the varying opinions concerning the "greater aesthetic ends to which the Karajan Sound was applied"? The author then focuses the rest of Karajan's musicianship as being one that is artificial and exaggerated by quoting un-cited critics and using weasel wording. There are just as many arguments that could counter these claims.
Last time I checked, weasel words are not accepted on Wikipedia - especially without citations.
I've done some to correct grammar and to fix matters of anti Karajan bias.
Gingermint (
talk)
04:59, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
The recording of the introduction to Thus Spake Zarathustra normally given in connection with the 2001 film is the Deutsche Grammophon 1959 recording of the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Karl Bohm, not the later one on Decca by Karajan. Hence the "Popular Culture" entry in the main article is wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.12.115.16 ( talk) 04:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
The Karajan Decca recording was used in the film, but the Bohm one featured on the soundtrack LPs because Decca didn't want their recordings associated with science fiction. So the info here is correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.127.79.8 ( talk) 22:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I find no reference to this composer in the entry on Karajan, although he does have an entry for himself on Wikipedia. Maybe the link to the Wikipedia entry on Banfield in the "See Also" section should be removed? 76.243.124.20 ( talk) 01:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
How is Karajan pronounced? can someone add that? Thanks. -- Rajah ( talk) 16:38, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Ka-ra-jan; all "a" like "hut" and "but", short and clipped; "j" like "y" (yes, yellow)-- Andrea 1903 ( talk) 02:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
The part on professional behavior is heavily biased and highly selective. The section is a collection of one-sided, negative aspects of professional behavior and does not reflect the professional achievements of this conductor. The critical portions are given undue attention and all other aspects are dropped.
Similarly, the article is about a conductor and not about a politician. It is highly questionable, if the section on party membership has the same length as the section on musicianship. Moreover, the former section (party membership) lacks many citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.139.199.30 ( talk) 19:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
The article was childishly slanted. I've fixed some things but I am sufficiently displeased with the article to suggest a thorough rewrite.
Gingermint (
talk)
05:04, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
According to [2], [3] and [4] Herbert's mother was a Slovene. Do you have any sources disproving the research by Branka Lapajne and others that have led you to claim she was possibly Slovene? I also don't see why Hugo Wolf would not be notable. If you think he is not notable, I invite you to nominate his article for deletion. I also invite you to list at least some of the hundreds of notable musicians or even other notable people that Karajan's family has been related to as you claim. -- Eleassar my talk 19:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Raborg ( talk) 19:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Another source is given in the very article: "Towards the end of 2005, I learnt of an article by prof. Dr. Heinz Schöny, long-time custodian and advisor in the history museum in Vienna, who wrote about Karajan’s Slovenian origins in that same daily [ Delo], March 20, 1985."
In addition, there is no good reason to assume his mother was of Serbian or Slovak descent. His great grandfather was Mihael Kosmač, which is a Slovene name and surname. The family originates from Mojstrana that does not have either Serbian or Slovak minority.
As for the language, the cited article says "today it is evident that Karajan knew Slovenian, a fact confirmed by his very good friend and conductor Carlos Kleiber." Such claims can be verified. -- Eleassar my talk 20:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, I've modified the article. You're still not satisfied? What's wrong with the current Herbert's family from the maternal side, through his grandfather who was born in the village of Mojstrana, Duchy of Carinthia (today in Slovenia), had Slovenian origins according to one modern genealogical research, thus contrasting with the traditional view which expressed a Serbian or simply a Slavic origin of his mother.? Raborg ( talk) 20:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Isn't this section a bit short? His nazi membership that lasted for six years is more important than fourty years when he was regarded as most influential conductor alive? Anyway, here is example of much better written biograpy: http://www.enotes.com/music-encyclopedia/karajan-herbert-von —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.143.114.163 ( talk) 02:01, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Sections of this article are way too long and a rewrite is needed. Gingermint ( talk) 05:05, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
(The Blue Danube waltz) was used by director Stanley Kubrick in his science-fiction film 2001: A Space Odyssey (with Kubrick animating the sequence to match the prerecorded music, the opposite of the usual practice for soundtracks).
This is not nearly as uncommon as this quote implies. It is true only for music specifically commissioned for a soundtrack, where the music is usually not finished until the picture editing is nearing completion.
But in cases like this, where an existing track is licensed for use, it's very common to cut your picture to the audio, particularly when you're shooting animation. Hairhorn ( talk) 18:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
There are many weasel words, especially in the Nazi membership section. "Critics", "supporters", "many people" all need to be defined or simply removed. 69.245.89.129 ( talk) 05:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Kudos to whoever that added the Karajan/Beethoven 5th video - it shows Karajan at the peak of his career with all of the famed intensity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.123.183.100 ( talk • contribs) 01:26, 26 September 2006
Gossips
Some critics, particularly British critic Norman Lebrecht, charged Karajan with initiating a devastating inflationary spiral in performance fees. During his tenure as director of publicly-funded performing organizations such as the Vienna Philharmonic, the Berlin Philharmonic, and the Salzburg Festival, he started paying guest stars exorbitantly, as well as ratcheting up his own remuneration:
- Once he possessed orchestras he could have them produce discs, taking the vulture's share of royalties for himself and rerecording favorite pieces for every new technology: digital LPs, CD, videotape, laserdisc. In addition to making it difficult for other conductors to record with his orchestras, von Karajan also drove up the prices that he would be paid and thus other conductors wanted. [1]
During a recording session of the Beethoven Triple Concerto with David Oistrakh, Sviatoslav Richter and Mstislav Rostropovich, pianist Richter demanded an extra take, to which Karajan replied "No, no, we haven't got time, we've still got to do the photographs." [2] This did not prevent violinist Oistrakh from saying, when Karajan turned 65, that he was "the greatest living conductor, a master in every style." citation needed
I removed the above section and have placed it here for discussion and potential improvement. There's certainly a place in the article for a discussion of Karajan's role in fee inflation, but there isn't enough balance or sourcing here to stop it from being POV. In particular the anecdote about the photographs seems like disconnected sniping. Too, "Gossips" seems like a bad section title. Perhaps if there IS more info on this topic, the section could be titled 'Performance Fees' or something like that. Leoniceno ( talk) 01:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)