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How is it that an observation of Mediterranean bandits can be attributed to an outlaw in North Carolina? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobby Hurt ( talk • contribs) 20:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
This is more or less a hagiography. Chicheley 19:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC) self evident.
blatantly obvious
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NZWSaGNYGA Heinegg has a notorious character assassin for hire liar last name
I think that guy in the first 10 seconds is talking to Heinegg and it's self evident and blatantly obvious when you see him to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fflwe9lGj68 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.103.147.195 ( talk) 07:31, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Tuscarora Ancestry
Henry Berry Lowry's tribal Indian ancestry is unproven. The available evidence indicates that Lowry was non-Indian. For instance, see the published story of the Lowry Gang written Mrs. Mary C. Norment in 1875. Norment was a life-long resident of Robeson County. Her Lowrie History, was based on the hearsay evidence of older members of mainly--but not exclusively--white Robeson Countians. Norment described James Lowry, the great grandfather of young Henry Berry Lowry, as a “well proportioned, fine looking, respectable mulatto” who told Robeson County residents that he was the son of a white man, a Judge Lowry of Virginia, and his slave. James Lowry’s father manumitted him, according to James Lowry himself, in Bute County, North Carolina. He moved to what later became Robeson County only in 1769. There, he took up farming and running a tavern. Lowry’s “half breed Tuscarora Indian” wife, as described by Norment, was Sarah Kersey. However, Kersey was not 1/2 Tuscarora. Genealogist Paul Heinegg has identified the origins of the Kersey family. They are non-Indian. The Kersey family were not Tuscarora Indians, but the mulatto descendants of “Negroe” Peter Kersey of Surry County, Virginia (See Weynette Parks Haun, Surry County Court Records, III:240), and Susannah Carsey, “a free Negro woman” of Charles City County, Virginia, both of whom had sons named John Kersey. The succeeding generations of Kerseys brought a third John, a Thomas, and another Peter Kersey into the Drowning Creek watershed during the mid 1750s and into the mid 1760s, where they were listed and taxed as mulattoes.
http://www.skarorehkatenuakanation.org/files/The_Swamp_Outlaws.htm -- Roskerah 18:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Between 1768 and 1774 James Lowry and his wife were consistently taxed as mulattoes. By 1779, James Lowry owned two slaves, 400 acres of improved land, four horses, and 100 head of cattle (William Byrd, Bladen County Tax Lists, I:5, 17, 45, 60, 123, 136; II:63, 84, 101, 115).
____
Responding to anonymous criticism:
Paul Heinegg's genealogical research is fairly sound; not totally infallible, mind you, but he has utilized many primary sources, including tax lists and court records, grants, deeds, wills, and so forth. The research has in fact recieved the praises of various experts in several fields, and the foreword to the latest edition of his voluminous work--two volumes, more than 1,500 pages--was penned by none other than Ira Berlin, a renowned scholar of black history, a highly regarded historian, whose accomplishments over the course of the last four decades need no explication here. Heinegg's book won the Donald Lines Jacobus Award for the best published genealogical work for 1992-1994. More than 20 years archival and research experience serves as his "degree" if you will. No, he is not trained as a historian; but the work speaks for itself in that it has garnered the respect of degreed academics.
Virginia De Marce, far from being "mediocre" and "unpublished" is a proessional historian, with degrees, as well as decades of experience in using and interpreting primary sources. She has edited the National Genealogical Society Quarterly, a refereed scholarly journal--considered the pinnacle in the field--served as the Society's president, and worked--get this--as a historian for the Bureau of Indian Affairs. I have three or four of her published articles in my files here.
If these individuals who, arguably, have done as much if not more than anyone else to advance the field, are not "qualified" to speak to matters of documentation and ancestry, then who is? You, anonymous poster, seem to place much stock in the authority of the written word, and require significant accredidation before accepting somebody's research as valid. I submit that Heinegg and De Marce are indeed qualified to address these issues. Simply asserting that these prolific researchers and their detailed genealogical expositions--and the historical context they both include in their published work--are "nonentities" is near ludicous in light of the sources both cite. I cannot speak for Heinegg, so much, but clearly his work (see the "Introduction" to his latest edition) is not entirely bereft of analysis. De Marce, too, is cognizant of social and legal context, for she alludes to as much in some of her writings.
Yet, while requiring scholarly authority on the one hand, you belittle genealogy on the other; genealogy has come into its own as a discipline--complete with certification guidlines and processes, and a sanctioning body--and yet you offer nothing else in its stead to show how or why the genealogical work of these researchers is insufficient. For what it is worth, doesn't the Buraue of Indian Affairs require genealogical resarch for tribes applying for recognition? And, besides, the transcripts that Heinegg and De Marce include (among much other information) are instructive. For instacne, how come on one county tax list people are listed as "Indian" yet on another, neighboring, county's list people are not listed that way? Contemporaneously? This raises important questions. Why are the Cherokee considered Indians--by local, state, and federal officials--in the 1840s, while the Lumbee are not so considered at the same time? You see, I do understand something about the past. We will never have all the answers, it is true. But, from the available context--and there is quite a bit, actually--it is strange, indeed, that while Pamunkey and Mattaponi in Virginia, Cherokee in North Carolina, Catawbas in South Carolina, Seminoles in Florida, and Choctaws in Mississippi are all considered Indians--by local, county, and state records--from circa 1810 to 1870, yet during the same time, the Lumbee ancestors are never accorded an Indian status, and appear in the records as "colored" and "Negro"? I do not deny that some modicum of Indian ancestry flows thgrough Lumbee veins; rather, I take issue with assertions to specific tribal identities--and thus indigenous histories--with essentially no evidence to support such claims. The fact that on the main Lumbee Indian discussion page there is so much wrangling--even by and between Lumbees--as to what the tribal ancestry and heritage is, speaks for itself. Croatan? Cherokee? Cheraw? Tuscarora? In other words, nobody knows from which aboriginal tribe Lumbees allegedly descend.
Simply having a drop of Indian blood does not make one an Indian. That is biological determinism akin to the supposedly outdated and, I thought, rejected "one drop" rule applied to blacks. Indeed, I think this is one of the ideas against which the Lumbee have for so long struggled. They did not wish to be characterized as "black" due to a modicum of African ancestry, right? The Lumbee have denied African ancestry since 1885 and the Hamilton McMillan thesis. Yet, other researchers and writers, even some anthropologists, continued to allege, well into the early 20th century, that the Lumbee did have African ancestry. So, by this reasonoing, if the Lumbee are not black, then they are not Indian, either, because if "one drop" of "Negro" blood does not in fact make one black, then by the same token, one drop of Indian "blood" does not make one an Indian. Right? If Ia m wrong, please explain why I am wrong. Adn, even if a few Lumbee ancestors had a little Indian blood, how does that constitute a native Indian tribe?
Look, the surviving records show--quite clearly, I'd suggest--that Henry Berry Lowry had very little Indian ancestry, if he had any at all. There is maybe an undocumented Indian ancestor back there in the early 1700s. I believe that is very possible. But where did that Indian come from--assuming that intermarriage actually transpired--was it from an East Indian servant? A de-tribalized mixed-blood from central Virginia? A captive Pascagoula? A New England, or Mexican, or Brazilian Indian transported to North Carolina as a slave? How can you say that simply because the Lumbee are found today near where, say, the Keyauwee allegedly lived long ago, that therefore the Lumbee must descend from that tribe? By that logic, everyone in the country today who claims an Indian great, great grandmother, or whatever, must descend then from whatever tribe once inhabited the region or locale in which that great, great grandmother resided.
Until a researcher comes forward with irrefutable evidence--which will likely have to be genealogical, sorry--that shows, i.e., proves, Lumbee descent from a particular tribe (be it Cheraw, or Tuscarora), I think we will have to rely upon the original documents that have come to light, and the interpretation of those documents by researchers and scholars who are well versed in the record, and make logical arguments. And, Heinegg and De Marce are as good--as reliable--as any other out there who purport to reveal to us the "truth" about Lumbee origins.
I will close by saying that if the Lumbees' tribal Indian identity was well-documented in the first place, that the record included references to chiefs and headmen named Locklear, Lowry, Oxendine, Chavis, et. al., and there were referecnes to "Indians" in the Lumbee area after 1739 and before circa 1870s, then Lumbee identity would be unassailable, and this entire discussion would not be happening. The fact is, there is doubt, there are questions. Something about the Lumbee, and their past, has intrigued people for many, many years. Are they Indians? Some look to be, in a general way. But others appear to be black, and others still look white. Some a combination of all three. And their documented ancestors (this far) appear in the reord as "Negro," "mulatto," "colored," and sometimes even "white." But problems like this are what drives research. We want to know the answers. Sometimes, we get lucky, and find them. The Lumbee need some luck. And I wish them well.
-- Roskerah 07:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
been so clouded, and confusing, and that, even though dozens of PhDs have done studies on our history, they still can't come to a unified "conclusion"? Have you ever thought that this is by no accident?
understand when you keep everything in the correct context in which it pertains. The amount of evidence showing the Tuscarora connection to our people is irrefutable, yet this information has always been "omitted" from most contemporary text.
collection on the people here? You can well bet that they didn't get their published findings from the people here, because they would have gotten a completely different understnding. Their assertions that the blood is primarily "non" native is false, and should not be used as valid source material. The evidence that the federal government themselves found several dozen half or more full blood Tuscarora here in the 1930's, shows that even then, there was still strong blood here. IF the truth were known, there "should" have been several thousand recognized as at least half back then, but they only tested 209 individuals, from one Indian settlement here. Of the "22" that were recognized, most were descendants of Henry Berry.
RESEARCH!! As far as I am concerned, this article should have added a section specifically for Tuscarora.-- Roskerah 18:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
And twenty years of research in primary sources is not enough? What would be enough? If, as you assert, "The amount of evidence showing the Tuscarora connection to our people is irrefutable, yet this information has always been 'omitted' from most contemporary text," then I suggest you put it up here; not links to pages from late 19th century books, or to other published sources that list names, but give no other indication whatsoever concerning tribal origin; show us records from the late 1730s (or earlier, if you have them) to the early 1830s, that say "Indian," "Tuscaroroa," and so forth. Look, I am with you in that IF the Lumbee have any Indian blood (and, I believe they do have a little), it may well be Tuscarora; then again, it may come from slaves. But show us tribal ties, tribal associations, good evidence of tribal activity, governance, and the like. This would lay the debate to rest, so why is it being held back?
Block quote"...They married and remarried with each other so often that the distinctive features of one was representative of all. Straight black hair, high cheek bones, straight backs and great muscular power characterized the whole race. Traces of the Indian and Anglo-saxon race can be discovered in the contour of their faces and observed in their demeanor and deportment. As a race they are remarkably superstitious. They believe in fairies, elfs, spirits, ghosts and goblins and in conjuration. They are as a race very prolific. It is no uncommon occurance to find women among them who have born a dozen of children, and some few as many as fifteen or sixteen..."
http://www.skarorehkatenuakanation.org/lowriehistory.html
What is wrong with the evidence that I have provided so far?
Province," together with forces under General Forbes of Virginia in the campaign against Fort Duquesne, the famed French bastion. An enlisted bounty of forty shillings was offered together with the promise to "reward them according to their merit at their return at the End of the Campaign." Eighteen returned to claim their reward for which the assembly authorized one hundred and fifty-five pounds.(1885 N.C. Colonial Records VI, pages 90, 101,1012) They had served under Major Hugh Waddell and were highly commended for reconnoitering and scouting...." -- Roskerah 06:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
-- Roskerah 14:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Lastly, regarding the years of research, and I don't want to minimize the time you have put into this subject, but what sources were these? Who did these things, and did they have an unknown agenda which guided their determinations? Did these people just rely on previous writers conclusions, or did they actually double check "their" sources?-- Roskerah 07:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the actual testing process, we were guinea pigs at that time. Our people were the first people that I know of that was subjected to this procedure, and also the last.-- Roskerah 06:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Very intiresting discussion here. Although I do sense some very strong views being present that I don't personally agree with, I do appreciate the manner in which this subject has been discussed in this particular instance.
Personally it appears that noone on here (justifiably by the way, as I don't either) really takes the Cheraw claim seriously and it also appears that everyone on here seems to believe (blood quantum asside) that the Lumbee have at least some Indian blood and that the Tuscarora are indeed at least the most likely source of that blood. Although this is not the consensus I hope to one day see, it's definately a big step in the right direction.
So to me it appears that the issues on the table now are more along the lines of how much Indian blood the Lumbee/Tuscarora have, whether all of them even have any, and why it is that most weren't listed as Indian if they had enough Indian blood to really matter.
Personally I understand the logic behind saying that they weren't Indian because they weren't listed as Indian. I can respect anybody's right to develope their views based on the facts as they understand them in their own mind, as I tend to be a very sceptical/analytical person myself.
And I will admit (as I am a realist myself) that virtually every Lumbee/Tuscarora alive today more than likely has some kind of non-Indian ancestry, be it white, black, or some degree of both. And in many cases I think that Heinegg and Demarce did a pretty good job showing this to some degree. I have discussed many of my disagreements with their work before, so I won't repeat them all again here as it will probably distract from the arguments I want to present at this time.
For the record (As I have noted in the past), personally I have not been convinced that the geneology Heinegg and Demarce give linking ancestral Lumbee/Tuscarora families in Northeastern North Carolina to non-Indian families from Virginia is correct (in most cases their evidence gets very week here) in roughly 2 out of 3 cases involving Robco ancestors. But let's say "hypothetically" that it is. Even "IF" everything that they said is 100% accurate, it still doesn't prove that Lumbee/Tuscarora ancestors didn't have large (as in 1/2 or 3/4+ in many cases) degrees of Indian blood.
Here's why: In many cases they go 3, 4, even 5 generations listing only one parent in every generation. Even if a person really was 1/2 black and 1/2 white and really was the real ancestor of an ancestral Lumbee/Tuscarora family, that still doesn't prove that Lumbee/Tuscarora ancestors weren't strong blooded Indians. For example: If John Smith was a bonefide mullatoe who's children's mother is unknown, whose grandchildren's mother is unknown, and whose great-grandchildren's mother is unknown that would mean that we know his great grandchildren definately are 1/16 white, 1/16 black, and 14/16 "UN-KNOWN!"
So even "IF" Heinegg and Demarce's genealogical connections are all correct (which isn't the case), and even "IF" every person was racially classed as what they really were (which also isn't the case), being that the scenario in the latter paragraph is the A-typical scenario for most Robco families in Heinegg and Demarce's research before they got to Robeson County, their is still "NO PROOF" that generations upon generations of Lumbee/Tuscarora ancestors weren't Indian. Heinegg and Demarce do seem to have explained where traces (as what they have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt are only traces) of black and white attributes among Robeson Indians came from (which by the way definately wasn't McMillans Lost Colony), but they don't even come close to accounting for why so many of our people today still physically look very much Indian!
Perhaps some folks may not feel that many Robco Indians today look Indian to any significant degree. Well I guess you are entitled to feel as you wish if you like. But personally (being a person that has travelled to quite a few different Indian communities in my life time and also being a person who has lived in Robeson County) the indisputable proof to strong Indian ancestry (perhaps not everyone, but definately enough to matter) that I have is what my own eyes have shown me and no paper genocide will ever be able to legitimately refute this obviouse truth! Bobby Hurt 01:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
It has been asked to add a photo of Henry in order to improve the page, which i have attempted to do several times. Unfortunately, the pic has been deleted several times now. How do I keep the pic intact? The photo is the only known photo that has been accepted as being Henry, which was taken over 150 years ago. Can someone explain why it continues to be denied?-- Roskerah 01:56, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I remember singing a song about HBL in my elementary school in NC in the 1980s. What I remember of the chorus is "Henry Berry Lowrie is my hero/He's a great Indian man/Whenever there was trouble/He would make a stand." Perhaps someone who knows more about the song could put something a mention in the article, by way of cultural reference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.107.196 ( talk) 21:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I remember singing a song about HBL in my elementary school in NC in the 1980s. What I remember of the chorus is "Henry Berry Lowrie is my hero/He's a great Indian man/Whenever there was trouble/He would make a stand." Perhaps someone who knows more about the song could put something a mention in the article, by way of cultural reference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.107.196 ( talk) 21:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
The third paragraph of this section looks like either original research or something that was meant to be a quote related to the previous two paragraphs. I'm tempted to add citation needed tags to it, but even if it had citations, it's not congruous with the rest of the section. I'd delete it outright, but if it's legit and just improperly punctuated, that would kind of suck (and I'm a noob at all this). Stelorl ( talk) 00:46, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
---This is obviously the work of a self-claimed decendant to Henry Lowrie, who is appearantly named David Hunter. In order to be acceptable materiel for this article, sources must be cited, and the sections 'Legends and Significance' and 'Known Decendants' will have to be edited to meet wiki's standards. If you read this Mr. Hunter, it is not appropriate to refer to yourself as (me) in a wiki article, and you will have to cite your geneological sources to avoid the complete removal of your additions, the next time I wander through. 206.174.1.69 ( talk) 23:53, 29 March 2010 (UTC)- Bahb the Illuminated.
Henry Berry Lowries last known child is brad lowery. Brad had bout 5 kids. Brads wifes name is vursla(burress). Brad & Vurslas sons norman lowery, josseph lowery. josephs kids - Pamala lowery, Donna lowery. Donna Lowerys kids are David Hunter (me) ,Christy Hunter , Melissa Hunter
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- KenWalker | Talk 03:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
There is no known picture of Henry Berry Lowrie. The picture you have is of my great-great-grandfather, Quin Godwin. It was taken from his son's house 40 years ago under false pretenses to use in a booklet, and never returned. His son was my Grandpa William Purcell Godwin's uncle, John Godwin. It is ironic that you are using a picture of a white man in place of Henry Berry Lowrie, who was proven to be an Indian.
Please correct it. Quinn had two Indian wives, Sally Hammans and Mary Sampson, but was himself a white man originally from Cumberland County. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dean Chavers ( talk • contribs) 06:14, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
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* The Robesonian - Indy beetle ( talk) 03:26, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
This article is mostly lifted from a claimed (POV) source. Why is it still here as more than a stub? 142.126.146.27 ( talk) 15:41, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
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How is it that an observation of Mediterranean bandits can be attributed to an outlaw in North Carolina? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobby Hurt ( talk • contribs) 20:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
This is more or less a hagiography. Chicheley 19:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC) self evident.
blatantly obvious
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NZWSaGNYGA Heinegg has a notorious character assassin for hire liar last name
I think that guy in the first 10 seconds is talking to Heinegg and it's self evident and blatantly obvious when you see him to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fflwe9lGj68 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.103.147.195 ( talk) 07:31, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Tuscarora Ancestry
Henry Berry Lowry's tribal Indian ancestry is unproven. The available evidence indicates that Lowry was non-Indian. For instance, see the published story of the Lowry Gang written Mrs. Mary C. Norment in 1875. Norment was a life-long resident of Robeson County. Her Lowrie History, was based on the hearsay evidence of older members of mainly--but not exclusively--white Robeson Countians. Norment described James Lowry, the great grandfather of young Henry Berry Lowry, as a “well proportioned, fine looking, respectable mulatto” who told Robeson County residents that he was the son of a white man, a Judge Lowry of Virginia, and his slave. James Lowry’s father manumitted him, according to James Lowry himself, in Bute County, North Carolina. He moved to what later became Robeson County only in 1769. There, he took up farming and running a tavern. Lowry’s “half breed Tuscarora Indian” wife, as described by Norment, was Sarah Kersey. However, Kersey was not 1/2 Tuscarora. Genealogist Paul Heinegg has identified the origins of the Kersey family. They are non-Indian. The Kersey family were not Tuscarora Indians, but the mulatto descendants of “Negroe” Peter Kersey of Surry County, Virginia (See Weynette Parks Haun, Surry County Court Records, III:240), and Susannah Carsey, “a free Negro woman” of Charles City County, Virginia, both of whom had sons named John Kersey. The succeeding generations of Kerseys brought a third John, a Thomas, and another Peter Kersey into the Drowning Creek watershed during the mid 1750s and into the mid 1760s, where they were listed and taxed as mulattoes.
http://www.skarorehkatenuakanation.org/files/The_Swamp_Outlaws.htm -- Roskerah 18:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Between 1768 and 1774 James Lowry and his wife were consistently taxed as mulattoes. By 1779, James Lowry owned two slaves, 400 acres of improved land, four horses, and 100 head of cattle (William Byrd, Bladen County Tax Lists, I:5, 17, 45, 60, 123, 136; II:63, 84, 101, 115).
____
Responding to anonymous criticism:
Paul Heinegg's genealogical research is fairly sound; not totally infallible, mind you, but he has utilized many primary sources, including tax lists and court records, grants, deeds, wills, and so forth. The research has in fact recieved the praises of various experts in several fields, and the foreword to the latest edition of his voluminous work--two volumes, more than 1,500 pages--was penned by none other than Ira Berlin, a renowned scholar of black history, a highly regarded historian, whose accomplishments over the course of the last four decades need no explication here. Heinegg's book won the Donald Lines Jacobus Award for the best published genealogical work for 1992-1994. More than 20 years archival and research experience serves as his "degree" if you will. No, he is not trained as a historian; but the work speaks for itself in that it has garnered the respect of degreed academics.
Virginia De Marce, far from being "mediocre" and "unpublished" is a proessional historian, with degrees, as well as decades of experience in using and interpreting primary sources. She has edited the National Genealogical Society Quarterly, a refereed scholarly journal--considered the pinnacle in the field--served as the Society's president, and worked--get this--as a historian for the Bureau of Indian Affairs. I have three or four of her published articles in my files here.
If these individuals who, arguably, have done as much if not more than anyone else to advance the field, are not "qualified" to speak to matters of documentation and ancestry, then who is? You, anonymous poster, seem to place much stock in the authority of the written word, and require significant accredidation before accepting somebody's research as valid. I submit that Heinegg and De Marce are indeed qualified to address these issues. Simply asserting that these prolific researchers and their detailed genealogical expositions--and the historical context they both include in their published work--are "nonentities" is near ludicous in light of the sources both cite. I cannot speak for Heinegg, so much, but clearly his work (see the "Introduction" to his latest edition) is not entirely bereft of analysis. De Marce, too, is cognizant of social and legal context, for she alludes to as much in some of her writings.
Yet, while requiring scholarly authority on the one hand, you belittle genealogy on the other; genealogy has come into its own as a discipline--complete with certification guidlines and processes, and a sanctioning body--and yet you offer nothing else in its stead to show how or why the genealogical work of these researchers is insufficient. For what it is worth, doesn't the Buraue of Indian Affairs require genealogical resarch for tribes applying for recognition? And, besides, the transcripts that Heinegg and De Marce include (among much other information) are instructive. For instacne, how come on one county tax list people are listed as "Indian" yet on another, neighboring, county's list people are not listed that way? Contemporaneously? This raises important questions. Why are the Cherokee considered Indians--by local, state, and federal officials--in the 1840s, while the Lumbee are not so considered at the same time? You see, I do understand something about the past. We will never have all the answers, it is true. But, from the available context--and there is quite a bit, actually--it is strange, indeed, that while Pamunkey and Mattaponi in Virginia, Cherokee in North Carolina, Catawbas in South Carolina, Seminoles in Florida, and Choctaws in Mississippi are all considered Indians--by local, county, and state records--from circa 1810 to 1870, yet during the same time, the Lumbee ancestors are never accorded an Indian status, and appear in the records as "colored" and "Negro"? I do not deny that some modicum of Indian ancestry flows thgrough Lumbee veins; rather, I take issue with assertions to specific tribal identities--and thus indigenous histories--with essentially no evidence to support such claims. The fact that on the main Lumbee Indian discussion page there is so much wrangling--even by and between Lumbees--as to what the tribal ancestry and heritage is, speaks for itself. Croatan? Cherokee? Cheraw? Tuscarora? In other words, nobody knows from which aboriginal tribe Lumbees allegedly descend.
Simply having a drop of Indian blood does not make one an Indian. That is biological determinism akin to the supposedly outdated and, I thought, rejected "one drop" rule applied to blacks. Indeed, I think this is one of the ideas against which the Lumbee have for so long struggled. They did not wish to be characterized as "black" due to a modicum of African ancestry, right? The Lumbee have denied African ancestry since 1885 and the Hamilton McMillan thesis. Yet, other researchers and writers, even some anthropologists, continued to allege, well into the early 20th century, that the Lumbee did have African ancestry. So, by this reasonoing, if the Lumbee are not black, then they are not Indian, either, because if "one drop" of "Negro" blood does not in fact make one black, then by the same token, one drop of Indian "blood" does not make one an Indian. Right? If Ia m wrong, please explain why I am wrong. Adn, even if a few Lumbee ancestors had a little Indian blood, how does that constitute a native Indian tribe?
Look, the surviving records show--quite clearly, I'd suggest--that Henry Berry Lowry had very little Indian ancestry, if he had any at all. There is maybe an undocumented Indian ancestor back there in the early 1700s. I believe that is very possible. But where did that Indian come from--assuming that intermarriage actually transpired--was it from an East Indian servant? A de-tribalized mixed-blood from central Virginia? A captive Pascagoula? A New England, or Mexican, or Brazilian Indian transported to North Carolina as a slave? How can you say that simply because the Lumbee are found today near where, say, the Keyauwee allegedly lived long ago, that therefore the Lumbee must descend from that tribe? By that logic, everyone in the country today who claims an Indian great, great grandmother, or whatever, must descend then from whatever tribe once inhabited the region or locale in which that great, great grandmother resided.
Until a researcher comes forward with irrefutable evidence--which will likely have to be genealogical, sorry--that shows, i.e., proves, Lumbee descent from a particular tribe (be it Cheraw, or Tuscarora), I think we will have to rely upon the original documents that have come to light, and the interpretation of those documents by researchers and scholars who are well versed in the record, and make logical arguments. And, Heinegg and De Marce are as good--as reliable--as any other out there who purport to reveal to us the "truth" about Lumbee origins.
I will close by saying that if the Lumbees' tribal Indian identity was well-documented in the first place, that the record included references to chiefs and headmen named Locklear, Lowry, Oxendine, Chavis, et. al., and there were referecnes to "Indians" in the Lumbee area after 1739 and before circa 1870s, then Lumbee identity would be unassailable, and this entire discussion would not be happening. The fact is, there is doubt, there are questions. Something about the Lumbee, and their past, has intrigued people for many, many years. Are they Indians? Some look to be, in a general way. But others appear to be black, and others still look white. Some a combination of all three. And their documented ancestors (this far) appear in the reord as "Negro," "mulatto," "colored," and sometimes even "white." But problems like this are what drives research. We want to know the answers. Sometimes, we get lucky, and find them. The Lumbee need some luck. And I wish them well.
-- Roskerah 07:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
been so clouded, and confusing, and that, even though dozens of PhDs have done studies on our history, they still can't come to a unified "conclusion"? Have you ever thought that this is by no accident?
understand when you keep everything in the correct context in which it pertains. The amount of evidence showing the Tuscarora connection to our people is irrefutable, yet this information has always been "omitted" from most contemporary text.
collection on the people here? You can well bet that they didn't get their published findings from the people here, because they would have gotten a completely different understnding. Their assertions that the blood is primarily "non" native is false, and should not be used as valid source material. The evidence that the federal government themselves found several dozen half or more full blood Tuscarora here in the 1930's, shows that even then, there was still strong blood here. IF the truth were known, there "should" have been several thousand recognized as at least half back then, but they only tested 209 individuals, from one Indian settlement here. Of the "22" that were recognized, most were descendants of Henry Berry.
RESEARCH!! As far as I am concerned, this article should have added a section specifically for Tuscarora.-- Roskerah 18:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
And twenty years of research in primary sources is not enough? What would be enough? If, as you assert, "The amount of evidence showing the Tuscarora connection to our people is irrefutable, yet this information has always been 'omitted' from most contemporary text," then I suggest you put it up here; not links to pages from late 19th century books, or to other published sources that list names, but give no other indication whatsoever concerning tribal origin; show us records from the late 1730s (or earlier, if you have them) to the early 1830s, that say "Indian," "Tuscaroroa," and so forth. Look, I am with you in that IF the Lumbee have any Indian blood (and, I believe they do have a little), it may well be Tuscarora; then again, it may come from slaves. But show us tribal ties, tribal associations, good evidence of tribal activity, governance, and the like. This would lay the debate to rest, so why is it being held back?
Block quote"...They married and remarried with each other so often that the distinctive features of one was representative of all. Straight black hair, high cheek bones, straight backs and great muscular power characterized the whole race. Traces of the Indian and Anglo-saxon race can be discovered in the contour of their faces and observed in their demeanor and deportment. As a race they are remarkably superstitious. They believe in fairies, elfs, spirits, ghosts and goblins and in conjuration. They are as a race very prolific. It is no uncommon occurance to find women among them who have born a dozen of children, and some few as many as fifteen or sixteen..."
http://www.skarorehkatenuakanation.org/lowriehistory.html
What is wrong with the evidence that I have provided so far?
Province," together with forces under General Forbes of Virginia in the campaign against Fort Duquesne, the famed French bastion. An enlisted bounty of forty shillings was offered together with the promise to "reward them according to their merit at their return at the End of the Campaign." Eighteen returned to claim their reward for which the assembly authorized one hundred and fifty-five pounds.(1885 N.C. Colonial Records VI, pages 90, 101,1012) They had served under Major Hugh Waddell and were highly commended for reconnoitering and scouting...." -- Roskerah 06:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
-- Roskerah 14:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Lastly, regarding the years of research, and I don't want to minimize the time you have put into this subject, but what sources were these? Who did these things, and did they have an unknown agenda which guided their determinations? Did these people just rely on previous writers conclusions, or did they actually double check "their" sources?-- Roskerah 07:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the actual testing process, we were guinea pigs at that time. Our people were the first people that I know of that was subjected to this procedure, and also the last.-- Roskerah 06:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Very intiresting discussion here. Although I do sense some very strong views being present that I don't personally agree with, I do appreciate the manner in which this subject has been discussed in this particular instance.
Personally it appears that noone on here (justifiably by the way, as I don't either) really takes the Cheraw claim seriously and it also appears that everyone on here seems to believe (blood quantum asside) that the Lumbee have at least some Indian blood and that the Tuscarora are indeed at least the most likely source of that blood. Although this is not the consensus I hope to one day see, it's definately a big step in the right direction.
So to me it appears that the issues on the table now are more along the lines of how much Indian blood the Lumbee/Tuscarora have, whether all of them even have any, and why it is that most weren't listed as Indian if they had enough Indian blood to really matter.
Personally I understand the logic behind saying that they weren't Indian because they weren't listed as Indian. I can respect anybody's right to develope their views based on the facts as they understand them in their own mind, as I tend to be a very sceptical/analytical person myself.
And I will admit (as I am a realist myself) that virtually every Lumbee/Tuscarora alive today more than likely has some kind of non-Indian ancestry, be it white, black, or some degree of both. And in many cases I think that Heinegg and Demarce did a pretty good job showing this to some degree. I have discussed many of my disagreements with their work before, so I won't repeat them all again here as it will probably distract from the arguments I want to present at this time.
For the record (As I have noted in the past), personally I have not been convinced that the geneology Heinegg and Demarce give linking ancestral Lumbee/Tuscarora families in Northeastern North Carolina to non-Indian families from Virginia is correct (in most cases their evidence gets very week here) in roughly 2 out of 3 cases involving Robco ancestors. But let's say "hypothetically" that it is. Even "IF" everything that they said is 100% accurate, it still doesn't prove that Lumbee/Tuscarora ancestors didn't have large (as in 1/2 or 3/4+ in many cases) degrees of Indian blood.
Here's why: In many cases they go 3, 4, even 5 generations listing only one parent in every generation. Even if a person really was 1/2 black and 1/2 white and really was the real ancestor of an ancestral Lumbee/Tuscarora family, that still doesn't prove that Lumbee/Tuscarora ancestors weren't strong blooded Indians. For example: If John Smith was a bonefide mullatoe who's children's mother is unknown, whose grandchildren's mother is unknown, and whose great-grandchildren's mother is unknown that would mean that we know his great grandchildren definately are 1/16 white, 1/16 black, and 14/16 "UN-KNOWN!"
So even "IF" Heinegg and Demarce's genealogical connections are all correct (which isn't the case), and even "IF" every person was racially classed as what they really were (which also isn't the case), being that the scenario in the latter paragraph is the A-typical scenario for most Robco families in Heinegg and Demarce's research before they got to Robeson County, their is still "NO PROOF" that generations upon generations of Lumbee/Tuscarora ancestors weren't Indian. Heinegg and Demarce do seem to have explained where traces (as what they have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt are only traces) of black and white attributes among Robeson Indians came from (which by the way definately wasn't McMillans Lost Colony), but they don't even come close to accounting for why so many of our people today still physically look very much Indian!
Perhaps some folks may not feel that many Robco Indians today look Indian to any significant degree. Well I guess you are entitled to feel as you wish if you like. But personally (being a person that has travelled to quite a few different Indian communities in my life time and also being a person who has lived in Robeson County) the indisputable proof to strong Indian ancestry (perhaps not everyone, but definately enough to matter) that I have is what my own eyes have shown me and no paper genocide will ever be able to legitimately refute this obviouse truth! Bobby Hurt 01:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
It has been asked to add a photo of Henry in order to improve the page, which i have attempted to do several times. Unfortunately, the pic has been deleted several times now. How do I keep the pic intact? The photo is the only known photo that has been accepted as being Henry, which was taken over 150 years ago. Can someone explain why it continues to be denied?-- Roskerah 01:56, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I remember singing a song about HBL in my elementary school in NC in the 1980s. What I remember of the chorus is "Henry Berry Lowrie is my hero/He's a great Indian man/Whenever there was trouble/He would make a stand." Perhaps someone who knows more about the song could put something a mention in the article, by way of cultural reference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.107.196 ( talk) 21:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I remember singing a song about HBL in my elementary school in NC in the 1980s. What I remember of the chorus is "Henry Berry Lowrie is my hero/He's a great Indian man/Whenever there was trouble/He would make a stand." Perhaps someone who knows more about the song could put something a mention in the article, by way of cultural reference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.107.196 ( talk) 21:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
The third paragraph of this section looks like either original research or something that was meant to be a quote related to the previous two paragraphs. I'm tempted to add citation needed tags to it, but even if it had citations, it's not congruous with the rest of the section. I'd delete it outright, but if it's legit and just improperly punctuated, that would kind of suck (and I'm a noob at all this). Stelorl ( talk) 00:46, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
---This is obviously the work of a self-claimed decendant to Henry Lowrie, who is appearantly named David Hunter. In order to be acceptable materiel for this article, sources must be cited, and the sections 'Legends and Significance' and 'Known Decendants' will have to be edited to meet wiki's standards. If you read this Mr. Hunter, it is not appropriate to refer to yourself as (me) in a wiki article, and you will have to cite your geneological sources to avoid the complete removal of your additions, the next time I wander through. 206.174.1.69 ( talk) 23:53, 29 March 2010 (UTC)- Bahb the Illuminated.
Henry Berry Lowries last known child is brad lowery. Brad had bout 5 kids. Brads wifes name is vursla(burress). Brad & Vurslas sons norman lowery, josseph lowery. josephs kids - Pamala lowery, Donna lowery. Donna Lowerys kids are David Hunter (me) ,Christy Hunter , Melissa Hunter
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- KenWalker | Talk 03:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
There is no known picture of Henry Berry Lowrie. The picture you have is of my great-great-grandfather, Quin Godwin. It was taken from his son's house 40 years ago under false pretenses to use in a booklet, and never returned. His son was my Grandpa William Purcell Godwin's uncle, John Godwin. It is ironic that you are using a picture of a white man in place of Henry Berry Lowrie, who was proven to be an Indian.
Please correct it. Quinn had two Indian wives, Sally Hammans and Mary Sampson, but was himself a white man originally from Cumberland County. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dean Chavers ( talk • contribs) 06:14, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
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* The Robesonian - Indy beetle ( talk) 03:26, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
This article is mostly lifted from a claimed (POV) source. Why is it still here as more than a stub? 142.126.146.27 ( talk) 15:41, 19 September 2023 (UTC)