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I took the liberty of improving the English of the translated quotation in the "Quotes" section. However, I'd love to see the original to verify that it is translated correctly. It's not in the (rather extensive) Romanian-language Wikipedia article from which I have been drawing most of this material. -- Jmabel 07:17, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I've brought in the list of Awards and Medals from the Romanian-language site. However, I'm a little skeptical about its accuracy, especially (1) the vagueness of the first New York listing and (2) the actual names of the various medals. I see essentially the same list reproduced around the web, apparently first published in Romanian and then translated or mistranslated from there. If someone who likes to do the kind of research that actually involves hitting library archives rather than just browsing the web wants to work on one aspect of this article, that list might merit a good fact-check. -- Jmabel 08:11, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
"Liceu" is romanian for "Highschool" [User:Mihai] 19 Dec 03
Agreed, in terms of the age of the students but the word is well-known in English (from the French) and the curriculum, as I understand it, resembles a French liceu far more than an American high school. Similarly, in an article about a German, I would not translate gymnasium. -- Jmabel 17:38, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
User:Greyengine5 recently changed "the world's first jet plane" to "the world's first thermojet aircraft." There were also some other related edits. I believe he is subtantially correct (a thermojet is not the same thing as what we usually call a "jet"), but I do believe that this was the first aircraft to use jet propulsion of any sort. Unless I am wrong (and this is not an area were I am expert), the article should say as much. -- Jmabel 17:33, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
From opening paragraph: "the parent of the modern jet aircraft." Hardly. His jet engine was nothing like a modern jet and his aircraft crashed on its only outing (amendment made to later section). I would suggest rewording along the lines of "one of the precursors of jet aircraft", but leave out 'modern' (he used a piston to to drive the compressor rather than a turbine) and 'the' (he was one of many, not The). What do others think? Emeraude 23:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Coanda himself described this 1910 aircraft in great detail in numerous patents. It was a ducted fan. No fuel injection, no combustion. This is also how it was described at the Paris air-show. His pathetic attempts to steal the cradit for other people's inventions 30 years later are just sad. Romaniantruths ( talk) 15:25, 30 July 2010 (UTC) Romaniantruths ( talk) 15:32, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Where and how did he spent World War II? -- Error 00:26, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Well there is this reference I found on page 174 of Flight International: "Two years after the fall of France - towards the end of 1942 - M. Coanda recieved a contract from the Germans for the developement of a propulsion system for ambulance snow sleds, ostensibly for use in Russia..." Romaniantruths ( talk) 21:55, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
This proposal is probably related to the Sled he made for the Czar Back before WWI. The old sled is described in contemporary reports as being driven by a ducted fan like device (popular mechanics, Mar 1911). This makes sense since what I've seen of the Flight International article about the sled he designed to assist the Nazi war effort discusses Coanda using venturis to increase the thrust of his sled. This also raises some question about his post-WWII claims that his 'turbo-propulseur' was a motorjet and not just a ducted fan. Romaniantruths ( talk) 22:45, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
In the history of the aviation Coandă is credited for two major discoveries: The Coanda-1910 airplane and the Coandă effect. The revolutionary plane that Coandă built in 1910 was way ahead of its time by the fact that it had no propeller and it used a reactive jet for propulsion; The issue is that he was the very first to build a jet engine, regardless of the technology; of course, in today's jet engine, the technology used is the gas turbine and not the thermojet, but this doesn't change the fact that he was the first who thought of that.
A simple search on the references will guide you the same answer: Coandă is credited today 100 % as the father of the modern jet aircraft. Cristibur 03:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Why do you think it's possible that Whittle, Von Ohain, or Campini knew about his attempts? He never made any attempts. The 1910 Coanda was a ducted fan design, and was described as such at the paris air show. All contemporary accounts make this clear, as they also make clear that he never got off the ground. The story about it being a jet didn't come into existence until after WWII, and is completely unsubstantiated. Romanianlies ( talk) 21:42, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Have a look at the the talk page for Coanda 1910 Romaniantruths ( talk) 21:39, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
And while you're at it look at the patents for Coanda's turbopropulseur. They describe the device in great detail, as patents do, but say NOTHING about the injection or combustion of fuel. Romaniantruths ( talk) 20:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
The very description is clear: "the plane used a 4-cylinder piston engine to power a compressor, which was intended to propel the craft by a combination of suction at the front and airflow out the rear instead of using a propeller. The nature of this drive system is clearly described in several patents Coanda took out on it in 1910(French), and 1911" this is NOT the description of a ducted fan, however someone tries to name it such. It is the description of a reactive engine. There is no fan or ducted fan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.118.2.13 ( talk) 17:12, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Yes, the description is that of a ducted fan. Look at the diagrams and see the centrifugal fan, and the duct it sits in. Calling it something else doesn't change what it is. But I can see that at least you're in full agreement with me that it's not a jet. Romaniantruths ( talk) 18:54, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
The article states
"the Coandă-1916, with two propellers mounted close to the tail; this design was to be reprised in the "Caravelle" transport aeroplane, for which Coandă was a technical consultant."
I'd fix the link to point to the Caravelle Airliner, if there was any evidence linking this twin jet design with a twin pusher propellor one I've never seen. Is that the right Caravelle? Number774 ( talk) 22:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have ANY evidence that this thing was a jet? Of course not. All the patents Coanda filed describe this as a ducted fan, all the coverage of the 1910 air show it was shown at describe it as a ducted fan. Coanda tried to use forged documents to grab the credit for others inventions, but his forgery was pathetic and fooled nobody. Romaniantruths ( talk) 17:03, 2 August 2010 (UTC) A 4-cylinder piston engine to power a compressor is not a "ducted fan" or a kind of "ducted fan". It is a thermojet. Is there any evidence for any fraud? I haven't seen such, but the very acid comments of a biased person who signs under "Romaniantruths" nickname. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.118.2.13 ( talk) 17:02, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Try looking up the word thermojet, if you learn what one is then maybe you'll be able to understand why you're completely wrong. It has compressed air mixed with fuel and burned to produce thrust. Coanda's very lame attempt at a ducted fan had no fuel injection and no combustion. And it also had no usable thrust. Ample evidence of his sorry attempts at fraud are available to anyone who looks for them. You could try looking up Coanda 1910 on wikipedia for starters. Then when you see the clear evidence of his ridiculous lies you can let us know how wrong you were. Romaniantruths ( talk) 19:18, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, if you mention the name and pages from some old magazines which nobody can verify what is exactly write there you prouve just nothing, just your own frustrations, Romaniantruths. Either you present the pages or the brevets, a facsimile or something, either you agree with mainstream believe and scientific world who say it was the first jet engine and first jet aircraft. Yes, it was a rudimentar jet engine and aircraft, a thermojet or air-jet, and not a turbojet, but there are too ramjets or scramjets etc. not just the turbojet, fact is he was the first who put a jet engine created by him on a plane (a revolutionary plane not just regarding the propulsion system) created by him. Do you think that if his invention wasnt true, academic researchers, French Academy and so on, wouldnt react and reveal the truth? Its just some british frustration who try to stole this reality, and make them look like the inventors of jet engine and jet planes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.208.215 ( talk) 08:33, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Anyone can verify all these references on the internet, which is where I got them. Since you are having trouble performing this basic task I'll make it childishly simple for you(not that I am in any way suggesting that you are childishly simple, you are obviously a mature and brilliant individual). Go to the Henri Coanda page. Scroll down to the bottom. Click on "The Patents Of Henri Coanda". Read his patents for the turbopropulseur, where he describes it in his own clear and unambiguous words as to function. These patents describe a ducted fan, and not a jet. The other references can all be found on google books, which I assume you can figure out for yourself. These references mostly predate the invention of the jet engine, and Henri Coanda's shameful attempt to steal the credit for this invention from all those who played some role in it's developement. I might also add that websites repeating Coanda's various and inconsistant stories are not evidence of anything but the fact that a lot of websites do shoddy research(all they had to do was examine his patents.) You have made various points in your statement which really should be refuted, such as the way you set yourself up as the ultimate arbiter of 'mainstream believe and scientific world', but I can tell from your note that you are an individual of rare qualities and high-minded Ideals who will see the error of your ways as soon as you follow those directions and read the references. Romaniantruths ( talk) 02:27, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
I didnt find any "turbopropulseur" there, maybe you can be more specific and point out exactly where you find that patent, and give a direct link. There is anyway the French patent 418.401 from 1910 where the engine and turbine details are presented, and other pictures and details are in archives of Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace in Paris. And they never put in question the fact that Coanda 1910 had a jet engine, quite contrary they always presented it as an avantgarde aircraft with a new propusion system. Not the "turbojet" as is used today, but neverthless a "jet" engine of a more rudimentar type. Coanda presented his ideas about jet suported flight in 1910 at Superori Aeronautic School in Paris and in french magazine "La Tehnique Aeronautique", in june 1910. I understand you have a favourite as the "father of jet flight", but the history is not always as we wish to be. Henri Coanda is the inventor of jet engine (air-jet or thermo-jet or motor-jet, how you wish to call it) and builder of the first jet propelled aircraft. Yes, an english and an german will create some 30 years later the "turbo-jet", a new jet more fiabile and powerful, but fact is that first "jet" was the one of Coanda, and except some fanboys from Britain (or maybe even Germany) who doesnt recognize that, scholars and scientific world never deny this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.207.189 ( talk) 08:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, if you dont trust "my stories" about some magazines, why to trust yours? And why do you think the French Air and Space Museum who have that patent doesnt say that Coanda 1910 wasnt a "jet" aircraft? Why do you think peoples who write those books in the bibliography presented here (not by me) said Coanda was the inventor of the jet engine? Do you think they didnt study a little before to write their books, and you, an anonymus guy from wikipedia with a an agenda of your own, know better? The engine was clearly not a simple "ducted fan" as you try to imply, but a "motorjet, thermojet, airjet", however is called, and is clearly a "jet", wheter you liked or not. The one thing that's common to all "jet" engines (thermojet, turbojet, ramjet, scramjet, rocket if you wish) is that they expel essentially heated or compressed air to propel the aircraft. And Coanda 1910 cleary had such an engine. Observing the burning gases expelled by the engine Coanda discovered later the "Coanda effect" and based on that he have 2 patents (in France again), one about the "Coanda effect" and one about the "aerodina lenticulara"/flying saucer, a discoidal flying machine who use jet engines and Coanda effect to fly. And guess what, he send that patent in 1932 and was aproved in 1934, few years before Whittle or von Ohain obtain their turbojet engine working and years before turbojet rudimentary aircrafts took flight. So the only fraud is in your mind, serious institutions as French Air and Space Museums or scholars from Smithsonian from US clearly afirm that Coanda is indeed the "fatehr of the jet engine" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.207.70 ( talk) 19:09, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
I have told you repeatedly where these magazines are available for free reading on the internet. I have also told you repeatedly where to find the patents as well. Have you bothered to read any of them? You're the one who seems to expect any assertion you make to be blindly accepted as the truth. And why do you think that any patent filed years before the invention of the motorjet would say that something wasn't a motorjet? If there really is such a patent it would be filed with the patent office, not the Air and space museum, and it also wouldn't say that the Coanda 1910 wasn't a nuclear reactor, or a flying saucer, or a revolutionary new way to manufacture mentos (the freshmaker!). I also see that you're now trying to expand the definition of jet engine to include anything that emits a jet of gas. This highly dubious assertion would mean that the jet engine was invented by Heron Of Alexandria more than 1500 years earlier. But first things first; are you, or are you not, asserting that the Coanda 1910 burned fuel in it's 'turbopropulseur' (called a 'suction fan' by all those magazines you apparently haven't read), or are you arguing that all ducted fans are jet engines. If you are arguing the latter then we'll have to discuss the various ducted fans Octave Chanute discusses in Progress In Flying Machines, which was published before Coanda even started the seven years it took him to get through high-school.(This is also available for free reading on Googlebooks.) Romaniantruths ( talk) 20:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Man, you are the exponent of why wikipedia sucks many times and is not seen as something reliable by many peoples. You erased some 7 books put by someone here, all saying that Coanda made an jet powered aircraft, then you told me to look at "googlebooks"? Are you kiding? Then you put some names of magazines and told me to search for them, without to present a link for them? The patent you said about, conveniently was "erased" then (how someone can erase stuff from that site?). And real scholars and scientists who work for prestigious institutions are all dumb and was tricked by Coanda now, and just you was smart and get how the things was? Those images and drawnings of engine and patent i said are in custody of Air Museum, where is a replica of the plain too. And guess what, i never saw someone from there saying what you say here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.209.209 ( talk) 07:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
I am not aware the I am required to supply links to all references. The patent was removed from this page, along with many other references. The removal was done, without comment on this page, simultaneously with the addition of the seven references you're complaining about my removal of. I just reverted the edit that removed these patents (and the earlier references by people who actually covered the Airshow where this plane was displayed). If you feel assertions made here should all have links perhaps you can set a good example for me by providing an internet link to this jet patent you refer to and it's related drawings. Your claim that you never saw someone from Air Museum saying what I say here is something I will certainly consider, but what if you weren't there, or weren't looking, when they said it? I have no memory of refering to real scholars and scientists as all being dumb, or of saying that only I am aware of the ducted fan nature of the 1910 Coanda Biplane. Perhaps you would be so kind as to post a link to where I said this as well? Romaniantruths ( talk) 05:09, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Oh boy, you did remove several books writed by historians of aviations, who clearly searched materials for their books in archives, at Air Museums, they saw patents and drawnings and technical references, etc. I dont think they look at wikipedia for them and i dont see yet other books where Coanda 1910 is called a simple ducted fan not even remotly related with a jet. Majority of peoples back then (1910) dont even understand whats about with that new aircraft, and how can fly if doesnt have a propeller. It was something so unusual and weird that even Gustav Eiffel told to Coanda that is pitty he was born some 30 years too early for its time. It is your choice to not trust those peoples who write the books you erased, and you didnt said directly they are dumb, but erasing those books and not taking those scholars in consideration is an indirect conclusion. As well you try to imply that just the "turbojet" is a "jet", which is false again, there are diferent types of jets. As well, as i said, Coanda used the jet propulsion ideas and Coanda effect in early 30's (so before Whittle and von Ohain make their turbojets) for that "aerodina lenticulara" discoidal flying aircraft, and the patent for that was based on what he did and saw and discovered at Coanda 1910 aircraft, including during its short accidental flight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.207.120 ( talk) 15:31, 27 August 2010 (UTC) Claiming these references were by "historians of aviations, who clearly searched materials for their books in archives, at air museums, they saw patents and drawings and technical references etc." Doesn't make it so. Did you think you could get away with saying this without anyone checking? It is entirely untrue. As I suspect are many other unsupported claims you have made here. However these claims can actually be checked. They're bogus! Romaniantruths ( talk) 03:13, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I added a new link, which clarify more the problem. A mention from there "the story and a model of the 1910 Coanda Jet are on display in the foyer of the Aeronautical museum at Le Bourget airport outside Paris". The author which can be acused of not knowing what he talking about stated that Coanda 1910 was undoubtely the first jet aircraft, and he clearly know what appear on that French Museum as well, where original story, planns, drawnings and a model are presented. If it wasnt to be a jet, i dont think he will write that. I hope as well that you wouldnt erase this link as you did with those seven history aviation book previously. And about the british patent from 1911 you show, there is not the original one regarding Coanda 1910, but another thing, related with improvments for a propeller. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.208.23 ( talk) 06:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, maybe Charles Gibbs-Smith is a highly regarded aviation historian, in UK. I can show too some highly regarded historians from Romania who write about Coanda. Thats why some independent aviation historians are more reliable, and i will add several books again (and i hope you will have the decency to not erase them again). Btw, i didnt erase anything from you before you erase those books (which wasnt even posted by me). About the PDF document, i suppose you didnt read it, it was writed by a very respectable american rocket scientist, and he mention about the Coanda-1910 and his all story, presented at Le Bourget Museum of Air and Space. He mention as well that it was undoubtly the first jet aircraft in the world and i dont think he would make such claims if he doesnt know about the aircraft and its history as was presented there. Nor do i think that peoples from that Museum who clearly saw (or even have there) the original french patent of Coanda will presented in a wrong way, or have Coanda much later drawning new stuff on the old patent (as you seem to imply) I higly doubt that some writers for a magazine know better then him, or that a patent from UK talking about the improvements for a propeller is the same with the engine of Coanda-1910. As i said most peoples doesnt understand back then how the engine functioned, it was, as Eiffel said, some 30-50 years ahead of its time. And if you see how an aircraft look like in 1910, compared with Coanda-1910, you will see he was right. None of your sources present the original patent and some are just magazines, its like i read today journals to make an idea about something neither i, neither the writers there dont understand well. Thtas why i stick with aviation historians who have researched more in deep the problem. And some independent ones, not a romanian or a british —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.208.72 ( talk) 07:58, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Well, it is what Stine said too, and i will put a link to Smithsonian Museum archives, where Coanda aircraft is called directly "the world first jet". The patent you present, i see the title is something like "improvements of a propeller" or something like that, is not the patent regarding Coanda-1910, which you dont show it until now (and i doubt you can interpret corectly even that first patent). Thats why i trust more real and known aviation historians and scientist who surely have a better understanding of the problem. I put 2 links from 2 International Aeronautics and Astronautics simposions (i hope the scientist who was invited there are good enough for you), one of some german scientists (from Technology University of Dresden) who make 10 years of researches for their book ( http://www.jstor.org/pss/3105820), as well the opinion held by Stine and those from Smithsonian Museum of Air and Space and other american and romanian aviation historians. I didnt wanted to use romanian sources not because i dont trust them, but to not look biased. In exchange you show me titles of old magazines (mostly which cannot be verified) where are writed couple lines about the aircraft and its propulsion sistem, which probably the authors have little knowledge, it was more like exotic news put in a corner of a page, without too many details. And of course, the Gibbs-Smith (second hand source), which obviously you trust more then Coanda for ex (first hand source). Why do you think that americans, germans, romanians, french, all acknowledge that Coanda-1910 was the world first jet (i agree, not the turbojet mostly used today, but nevertheless a jet), and just some brits consider is not? Is not that i am racist or something, far from me that, it was just an observation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.209.217 ( talk) 07:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Man, you are really pathetic. Are you assume that lots of scientists and historian aviation are some idiots, and just you (or Gibbs and soem Royal british aeronautic institute know whats hpaened? The old magazines (which have couple lines writed about the plane, clearly having no idea whats about with it) are pretty much ussles, they just recorded the event. And did ever ask why just Gibbs said that, and all others from the other parts of the world go with Coanda? Wake up —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.206.162 ( talk) 15:09, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
This needs explaining. Why is it notable that he designed something that was the same shape as the avrocar? So did the inventors of the discus, the frisbee, and the wok. Romaniantruths ( talk) 11:33, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Man, your bias is so big that you become almost delirious. So now you compare a complicated aircraft with a frisbee just because they have somehow the same general shape, and, obviously, because was invented (again, for your despair) first time by Coanda? Whats next, why to talk about "clasical" aircrafts, because the birds (or pterodactils) have first the idea to have wings? This is the page of Henri Coanda and his life, realisations, inventions, creations etc. It is normal to be presented such stuff here, created by him or inspired by his ideas (as the Avrocar was inspired by his "aerodina lenticulara") —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.207.120 ( talk) 15:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
I am genuinely gratified to see from your above post that you agree with me that comparing something to the avrocar merely because of it's shape is inappropriate. I will do you the favor of removing the offending comparison forthwith. I was unaware, however, that Coanda invented the frisbee, perhaps you could provide a link to this information? With warmest regards Romaniantruths ( talk) 21:27, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
I need to repeat myself, since you either are biased either have comprehension problems. I hope is the first one, but you need to control it after all, its embarasing. Coanda patented in 30`s a lenticular (discoidal) shape aircraft powered by some jet engines and using the Coanda effect. Decades later after that, Avro build a discoidal aircraft using Coanda effect for moving. If you consider that they dont inspire from Coanda, but from a frisbee, to make that Avrocar, then good luck in your plays with the coleagues from kindergarten, we dont have much to talk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.207.92 ( talk) 09:18, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Let's begin a discussion of what the sources say, in detail. We should stick to verifiable and reliable sources, of course. What they say will determine the article. Binksternet ( talk) 15:50, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
a suction turbine that takes the place of the ordinary aeroplane propeller
Ok, i see you edited some posts, with no explanation, and re write some alternative history put there by another poster, entirely invented by him (the one with Coanda discovered the effect who bear his name in Eiffel wind tunell or something like that. Well, there is no such thing, and nobody said that until that person post that crap here, which you gladly restored. I am new here, i know that wikipedia is not usualy trusted by most of the peoples, is just a general reference for them, and that is precisely because such biased presentations and crap interpretations. I understand that a neutral point of view must be presented, but i wasnt able to see that here, but just an endless re edited text presenting just one point of view, of some british historian of aviation. About the article from that old magazine. Well, in that time aviation was just started, there was just few airplanes made by few peoples in few countries. All was their own inventions, with diferent styles, wings, engines etc. Nobody know much about this new appeared science, not even those inventors, and much less the journalists. An aircraft as Coanda-1910 was so weird and unusual compared with the other fews in existence, then was even believed it can fly, because it doesnt had a propeller. Except maybe Coanda, the inventor of the engine, nobody understanded well how that was constructed, and how functioned. The name "jet engine" wasnt even invented, didnt existed at that moment. So the journalists who had no knowledge and expertise in that domain, especialy regarding "jet engines" who was something beyond that time used the description they think they know and understand, and their readers might understand as well. Thats why we cant put that much trust in those couple lines writed among many others related with general science stuff in a magazine on that era, and the best is to look at more modern scholars and scientists and historians of aviation. They have studied the patents, the engine, the drawinings, the description of the plane, and have too the knowledge and expertise to understand what kind of engine or aircraft was. Thats why someone like Stine is better then a journalist from that time, who had no expertise in jet engines and just saw the aircraft and couple things about it, without to understand much what was about and who write in the terms he know. I hope that this was clear enough, and pathetic actions as erasing links to books or magazines with serious scholars opinion will not continue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.208.43 ( talk • contribs)
No, it was more about Popular Mechanics, but since you mention Flight, look how they describe Coanda-1910 http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1910/1910%20-%200883.html?search=Coanda%20Paris%20%20Flight%20Salon&tracked=1 A turbine driven aircraft with no propeller. I assume from this know Gibbs that aircraft was buyed by somebody too. I dont know what to say, and how much peoples from Flight knew about the aircraft. Not too much, as i saw, about the details of the engine. Its interesting what that guy asked too, about the use of 2 propellers in a kind of turbine, one moved by the exhaust gases of another (which is not quite Coand idea and engine) and the negative answer he received. Thts why i said that sources from that times are not quite reliable in the sense that they dont understand well the technical feats of some stuff. Aviation just apeared, and most peoples either dont understand much, either was use just with the "normal" airplanes they saw. I read too what Gibbs said, his reason why Coanda wasnt a jet is that if so, the flames will burn the aircraft and the pilot (so he dont know if Coanda added or not gasoline, just make an assumption that if he did, that can happen as he said). But precisely because of that Coanda added those metal plates, to defect the flames away from the plane body and "cockpit". He didnt use either the full power, and when he tried to verify the aircraft, this start to move on. Coanda said then that he was scared to see the flames not deflected, but curved around those metal plates and coming towards him and the plane, thats why he reduced the power and the plane who tooked off crushed. And thats why the aircraft was never saw again, sold or not to that misterious mr Weiman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.208.26 ( talk) 06:31, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
In this letter to the editor of Flight, published 14 October 1960, Charles Gibbs-Smith writes:
Might I suggest Mr Servian looks at pages 220-221 of my new book, where he will find the Coanda case discussed in detail. The extraordinary claim was not made until 1956; and the Coanda sesquiplane, which was shown in the Paris Salon of 1910, was disinterred from its obscurity.
I won't bore Mr Servian with the many details here, but he will see what a delightful claim it is when I tell him that the 'turbo-propulseur' (driven at 4,000 r.p.m. by a 50 h.p. Clerget) was mounted around the nose of the aircraft and was intended to blow back all round the fuselage, including round the pilot as he sat erect in his cockpit (begoggled, one hopes). If this innocent air (and plain air was all it was ever meant to hurl back) was turned into a burning jet, it would have been the most inelegant way of committing suicide ever devised.
The whole claim is naughty nonsense, as Mr Servian will see from the material I have set out in the book. There was never any idea of injecting fuel; the machine never flew; it was never destroyed on test; and Flight noted that it was soon sold to a Monsieur Weyman.
The claim said that after the disastrous crash (which never happened) Coanda wished to begin a 'second aircraft', but 'his funds were exhausted.' Within a year he was gaily exhibiting (in October 1911) a brand new propeller-driven machine at the Reims Concours Militaire, and then went on to a distinguished career in aviation.
(The letter Gibbs-Smith was responding to was one written by T. R. Servian of Croyden, Surrey, England, printed in September 1960 Flight.)
To me, this means that Coanda made no jet claims until 1956 at which time he said the Coanda-1910 was an early jet, that it flew once and crashed, and that he could not continue its development for lack of funds. Gibbs-Smith suggests that any flames in the "plain air" output would have killed the pilot, and he notes that Coanda was not at all short of funds—he dropped his unsuccessful 1910 design and immediately started fabricating a prop-plane which was ready in 1911.
The book Gibbs-Smith was referring to in his letter was The aeroplane: an historical survey of its origins and development, published just a little earlier in 1960. A section entitled "The Coanda Sesquiplane of 1910" begins on page 220, starting with "There has recently arisen some controversy about this machine, designed by..." I consider Gibbs-Smith the ultimate observer of this controversy, impartial yet pointedly direct in his rebuttal to Coanda's claims. Binksternet ( talk) 03:45, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, but is not convincing for me, beeing less to be trusted then romanian sources. And anyway Harry Stine is much more qualified then him, and is neutral too. As well dont erase anymore that PDF article (or any article, link, books who is about the subject etc.), is about Coanda effect. Yes, i know its bother you because it said that Coanda build and flow the first jet plane in the world, but its Stine opinion, which i think everybody agree its quite qualified in this matter. Its easy for me too to erase links and articles and present just one side of view, even to re-write the entire page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.24.129.40 ( talk) 21:01, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
This article from Flight 24 June 1955 predates Coanda's claim to early jet invention. The article, "Without Visible Means of Support" by A. R. Weyl, mentions Coanda in passing as the inventor of a "ducted-fan-propelled aeroplane", though he credits G. Koch with inventing an earlier ducted airscrew in 1893. Weyl does not say anything about the Coanda-1910 being an early jet, because Coanda had not yet made such a claim. Binksternet ( talk) 04:01, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
In January 1973, Flight printed an obituary of "Dr Henri Coanda" in which he was credited with the invention of "a ducted fan aeroplane and the development of fluid dynamics." The obit called Coanda's 1910 design "unsuccessful" though it "set a precedent". Nowhere in the obituary is any sort of rudimentary jet engine design mentioned, though it goes into a bit of detail about other works such as desalinization. Binksternet ( talk) 04:10, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
It can't be described as a source but it might be a jumping off point - searching through Flight, I found [ a (1911) request for info on the turbo-propulseur. So far I have not found anything in the correspondence pages of following issues. Unfortunately the search is limited by the quality of the OCR (I found a "th" identified as a "m" in an unrelated dig) so a lack of match does not mean an absence of the text searched for. The request mentions its use with "Gregoire" motor sleighs which might be another avenue. GraemeLeggett ( talk) 16:07, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes, i searched too, but didnt find much, i find some page, but just couple lines of an article was presented, and the next page was missing unfortunately. I think the first aparition in Flight is the one with the pictures, where is said is a turbine-driven aircraft with no propeller, but the details are scarce next —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.24.129.40 ( talk) 21:04, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I am removing a link to a paper by the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation:
The paper is not written about aviation engineering, it is about the Coanda effect in hydraulics. The author cites Stine's 1989 work, and adds no new observations. Whatever this link was giving is already given by Stine, so this one has no value here. Binksternet ( talk) 23:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I have removed some sentences that claim widespread belief in Coanda's jet claims, a belief that gives no names of who was saying what. The sentences are not useful unless persons can be matched to their statements.
Here is the section, with removed text in italics:
The assertions that "most of modern" and "a series of american and romanian aviation historians" are not supported by cites. Binksternet ( talk) 23:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I am removing sentences that give the Coanda-1910 passable heat shields which are supposed to withstand a jet exhaust:
The assertion by Gibbs-Smith that the pilot would be killed by a jet exhaust takes all the Coanda features into account. Whatever heat shields the aircraft could claim would not have been enough to save the pilot from death if fuel were ignited in a combustion chamber. The only heat was from heat exchangers, pressurized air, and piston engine exhaust. The notional heat shields that would have saved the pilot are not visible at all in photographs. Binksternet ( talk) 23:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Let's stop editing this article in relation to any of the Coandă-1910 material until after the RfC at Talk:Coandă-1910#RfC:_How_to_present_the_controversy_to_the_reader has run its course. We are sorting out how the contradictory claims in the matter will be presented. Binksternet ( talk) 23:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
So, after getting called an idiot, I have now received threats over my recent edits. Any admins care to warn 79.116.208.237? Brutal Deluxe ( talk) 12:16, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Here are the external links I removed:
I have added citation needed tags to both of these since they have no citations, and since I've personally read the patent usually described as his 1930's flying saucer and it definitely isn't a flying saucer. It's a design for a stationary propeller that uses the Bernoulli effect by blowing gas over a mushroom shaped construction. The aerodynamic train should have a citation tag too (patents for aerodynamic trains date back to the late 19th century, I'll find a reference later if it's necessary), but this page is already cluttered with citation tags because it's so full of uncited (and in my opinion inaccurate) claims. Romaniantruths ( talk) 03:40, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
The images and pics with patents reproduced are from Museum of Technology "Dimitrie Leonida" from Bucharest. Coanda family donated all his archive to Air Museum, Military Museum and this museum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.206.171 ( talk) 12:55, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Only one of these images dates to the era in question. and in that one only part of the image does and that part is the patent I mentioned above. I know that patent exists, and what it is, since I've read it. I have no reason to believe any of the other images have any provenance whatsoever. They are therefore useless. Romaniantruths ( talk) 17:29, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Once again I have removed the image URLs which keep returning, supposedly as references to support Aerodina Lenticulara:
These images are unsuitable as references. They are created or assembled by people other than Coanda, and have no verifiability. Binksternet ( talk) 14:54, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed the sentence "Others say it merely crashed" from the end of Walter Boyne's quoted sentences about the Coanda-1910. Boyne is demonstrably wrong about what "others say"—Winter and Gibbs-Smith say it did not fly at all, let alone crashed. I see no reason why this phrase of Boyne's should be included in his quote, if it is so wrong. Binksternet ( talk) 15:42, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed this quote:
These airplanes we have today are no more than a perfection of a child's toy made of paper. In my opinion, we should search for a completely different flying machine, based on other flying principles. I imagine a future aircraft, which will take off vertically, fly as usual, and land vertically. This flying machine should have no moving parts. This idea came from the huge power of cyclones.
I took it out because it was not found anywhere in a thorough book search, or in scholarly papers. The only places I found it were unreliable webpages about famous quotes. If we can give proper attribution to this quote (when and where) then we can return it to the article. Binksternet ( talk) 21:56, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
This is from a discurs held at Romanian Academy, i have see somewhere a link, but is in romanian, need to search for it, dont have much time now —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.209.125 ( talk) 08:02, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
The references in the lead (2,3,4,5,and6) all show the 1910 Coanda was described at the time as what would be today called a ducted fan, not that it was just an experimental aircraft. I have changed the lead to reflect this. Romaniantruths ( talk) 02:18, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
At Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 79, there was a discussion about the JPG URLs that some editors keep trying to put into the article. They are not appropriate. Binksternet ( talk) 15:46, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I have tried to remove Boyne's sentence "Others say it merely crashed" because it does not express a major viewpoint—it is a throwaway sentence in a magazine article written by Boyne.
At Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_78, Boyne is discussed. One IP editor says that Boyne is one of the most reliable sources, and that he calls the Coanda-1910 a primitive jet. The IP editor says (incorrectly) that Boyne affirms this in all of his books where he covers the subject. My response was the following:
So Boyne is a fine source in general aviation, especially military aviation, but he does not talk in detail about Coanda in his books, and the disputed sentence is one from his only magazine article which tells a small amount of detail about Coanda. He calls the engine a "primitive jet" in the magazine but a "ducted fan compressor" in the book, a stronger reference. Boyne is not the magic source by which the Coanda-1910 will be saved. Binksternet ( talk) 15:46, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
There are a few problems with this section: Activities? would this include things like camping and shuffleboard? It makes the section look a little weird, and it's makes the section a depot for things which belong in the body of the text. In fact several of the entries are just re-iterations of things already discussed in the main body of the article(Like various Bristol aircraft he designed). Also, the solar de-salinisation system: Is he supposed to have invented it? Or designed one? Romaniantruths ( talk) 05:10, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
Why were all the contemporary references erased from the lead, and the article? They all describe what Coanda said about his aircraft at the airshow(that it was a ducted fan). Romaniantruths ( talk) 20:12, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
For two months now I have been steadily reverting the same general content added by IP editors, the latest one being 193.xxx after the 79.xxx series was blocked, because the IP edits are taking this article in the wrong direction.
The IP edits are of the nature of arguing the Coandă-1910 story here on this page rather than on that article's page. Too much detail about the Coandă-1910 keeps being introduced to this article, but Coandă was much more of an engineer than that one aircraft. He invented a wide array of devices, and experienced great success in other matters. This biography article is not the place to put too much emphasis, per WP:WEIGHT, on one small aspect of the man's life.
Specifically, I have been removing assertions that the Coandă-1910 was "the first aircraft constructed for air-reactive propulsion", because at least one expert source (Winter) questions this fact, I have removed "turbine powered" because the modern definition of turbine does not include what the 'turbo-propulseur' could do, and I have removed a group of patent documents that are too much detail for this bio. Gibbs-Smith was quoted as saying "the first full-size attempt at a jet-propelled aeroplane" but the context was not explained, the quote was too much detail for a bio, and Winter gives a different possibility (that Canovetti might have been first). I have removed a whole paragraph about aircraft details—wa-a-ay too much granularity for this bio. Binksternet ( talk) 16:56, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
The problems are:
re the quote. What's the copyright problem with it? It's not Allstar's copyright to claim, whatever they stick in the page footer. It is Coanda's copyright, but short quotes are under fair use (this is how Allstar are already using it).
re the desalination images, I'd see the first (the plant image) as acceptable, but not the second. This is because the second adds nothing to the first image, other than some non-English text. Anything we could gain from the second is better done by adding text ourselves.
Binksternet, don't throw them such an easy bone. Anon IP, I just hope you're not Lsorin socking away... Andy Dingley ( talk) 15:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
I added a tag to the top of the article stating that it contains sources that may be unreliable. Specifically, I am questioning this one:
It appears to have been written by George Olteanu on 3 September 2010 for Go4It, a Romanian gadget and technology website that reminds me of gdgt.com. Who is Olteanu? We have no indication of his level of expertise. The post looks more like a hosted blog than anything else; it was posted in the Technology Curiosities section (Curiozitati). Olteanu appears to have written several posts about Coanda: [19], [20], [21], [22], and [23]. Olteanu looks to me like an amateur fan of Coanda.
These articles are fun to read but not high on the reliable/verifiable scale. There are better sources we can use to describe the man's accomplishments, I am sure. Binksternet ( talk) 13:32, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
Well, all the articles are based on materials from Museum of Technic Dimitire Leonida from Bucharest, where most of Coanda archives are located. About "aerodina lenticulara/flying saucer" is based as well on what this guy say
I removed the PDF external link call "Henri Coanda: The Facts", hosted by newfluidtechnology.com.
This PDF has no author, and is unverifiable. No level of author expertise can be assessed. This link fails WP:V and WP:RS, and violates WP:ELPOV as it gives too much credence to Coanda's version of events.
According to WP:ELNO, we should be following this guideline: Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research, except to a limited extent in articles about the viewpoints that the site is presenting. The PDF gives misleading statements about Coanda, specifically, it says the following:
The PDF has some interesting photos but its text is misleading in places. In the PDF, the photos are said to be given by G. Harry Stine but this is not proven and there could be a copyright violation. The bigger problem is the presence of misleading statements. Binksternet ( talk) 21:26, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
I have semi-protected the article for the time being due to constant edit warring, please gain a consensus for inclusion or otherwise on this talk page. MilborneOne ( talk) 14:28, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
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Current version of the text is:
Upon his return in 1909, he travelled to Paris, where he enrolled in the newly founded École Nationale Superieure d'Ingenieurs en Construction Aéronautique (now the École Nationale Supérieure de l'Aéronautique et de l'Espace, also known as SUPAERO). One year later (1910) he graduated at the head of the first class of aeronautical engineers.
However, there is a confusion between two french aerospace schools, École Nationale Superieure d'Ingenieurs en Construction Aéronautique (known as ENSICA) and École Nationale Superieure d'Aeronautique et de Construction Mecaniques (known as ENSA and then ENSAE, or SUPAERO). M. Coanda was a student at École Nationale Superieure d'Aeronautique et de Construction Mecaniques (founded in 1909 and that changed its name for École Nationale Supérieure de l'Aéronautique et de l'Espace) and not at École Nationale Superieure d'Ingenieurs en Construction Aéronautique (founded much later, in 1946).
The text should be modified as follow:
Upon his return in 1909, he travelled to Paris, where he enrolled in the newly founded École Nationale Superieure d'Aeronautique et de Construction Mecaniques (now the École Nationale Supérieure de l'Aéronautique et de l'Espace, also known as SUPAERO). One year later (1910) he graduated at the head of the first class of aeronautical engineers.
Thank you for editing as soon as possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.54.120.175 ( talk) 16:10, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
This highly controversial, unacceptably sourced garbage is still up there. WHY? Bunksternit, you put this up there and ignored objections to it while keeping the page protected to maintain these spurious claims. I want an explanation. Ion G Nemes ( talk) 04:07, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
This article claims Henri Coanda discovered the Coanda effect, which is contradictory with Coandă effect, where Coanda's contribution was just in recognizing its practical applications. mudava ( talk) 18:37, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
"... a controversial claim disputed by some and supported by others." Surely a controversial claim is by definition "disputed by some and supported by others." Zgryphon ( talk) 05:58, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
User:Andy Dingley Who do you think you are? You, who has not even 0.01% of Coandă's knowledge and learning, you, who contributed with nothing to the world, YOU, dare make HIM, a LIAR?! You scum, you don't even deserve to kiss his toe, yet you think you can decide for him! No wonder the world has gotten this low, no wonder the Wiki is so criticized, as long as likes like you, who have no notion of respect or recognition, are running things!... Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 09:56, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
"Very little to support it"...how about your eyes? You're not blind, right? Everyone who looks at that for the first time says "wow, a jet", I think you're the only one in the world who doesn't... -_- Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 10:06, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
You wouldn't react much better if you'd be in my place...Seeing your country tarnished, it's history and contributions disconsidered, the achievements of it's people denied and contested 24/7...it's a very unpleasant feeling...You're probably American, so you can't possibly understand how I feel, but simply put: I just want justice... Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 15:17, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
It WAS a jet engine, but it was the very first one, ofcourse it didn't have what you find today in a jet engine, because it was made over 100 years ago! Even if you don't want to call it a jet engine, you still have to admit that this was the first real step in the development of jet engines. Expecting it, in 1910, to have what others had over 30 years later is just absurd and biased. There's this thing, it's called evolution. We humans evolved from monkeys. That doesn't make monkeys humans, but they are still the starting point. Just like with Coandă here, he made the "monkey" of the jet flight. Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 16:57, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Monkey is just a figure of speech, anyway that was not even the focus, did you even get what I meant to say or not? I had enough of arguing over obvious things with redundant people like you. -_- 18:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC) Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 18:49, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
How am I wrong? How? I only say what Coanda said about his OWN invention! Who do you think you are to tell a man what he invented? It's his invention, so he has the sole right to name it! Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 19:13, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
It's true that there were some exaggerations, but you can't just say that we can't have a claim for anything. Like, for instance, I claim that the Western WW2 documentaries would stop acting like we didn't exist, I don't think that's an unjustified claim. Besides, Protochronism is about Dacians and their role in the forming of the Romanian nation. Dacia was our starting point, Dacians were our ancient ancestors. There is no connection between them and Coanda, and you are being very absurd right now. I know what my nation did, what it deserves and what is it's place. And I see no exaggeration in Protochronism We are Dacians. All of you Westerners squeal like pigs when any afinity to our ancient Dacia is even mentioned, but we know who we are, and we definately don't need YOU to tell us who we are! We are Dacians who eveolved and continued to dwell here. I am a Dacian. I feel and consider myself a Dacian. There's no way for a history-less people like the Americans to tell me who I am. -_- Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 21:05, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
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I took the liberty of improving the English of the translated quotation in the "Quotes" section. However, I'd love to see the original to verify that it is translated correctly. It's not in the (rather extensive) Romanian-language Wikipedia article from which I have been drawing most of this material. -- Jmabel 07:17, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I've brought in the list of Awards and Medals from the Romanian-language site. However, I'm a little skeptical about its accuracy, especially (1) the vagueness of the first New York listing and (2) the actual names of the various medals. I see essentially the same list reproduced around the web, apparently first published in Romanian and then translated or mistranslated from there. If someone who likes to do the kind of research that actually involves hitting library archives rather than just browsing the web wants to work on one aspect of this article, that list might merit a good fact-check. -- Jmabel 08:11, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
"Liceu" is romanian for "Highschool" [User:Mihai] 19 Dec 03
Agreed, in terms of the age of the students but the word is well-known in English (from the French) and the curriculum, as I understand it, resembles a French liceu far more than an American high school. Similarly, in an article about a German, I would not translate gymnasium. -- Jmabel 17:38, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
User:Greyengine5 recently changed "the world's first jet plane" to "the world's first thermojet aircraft." There were also some other related edits. I believe he is subtantially correct (a thermojet is not the same thing as what we usually call a "jet"), but I do believe that this was the first aircraft to use jet propulsion of any sort. Unless I am wrong (and this is not an area were I am expert), the article should say as much. -- Jmabel 17:33, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
From opening paragraph: "the parent of the modern jet aircraft." Hardly. His jet engine was nothing like a modern jet and his aircraft crashed on its only outing (amendment made to later section). I would suggest rewording along the lines of "one of the precursors of jet aircraft", but leave out 'modern' (he used a piston to to drive the compressor rather than a turbine) and 'the' (he was one of many, not The). What do others think? Emeraude 23:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Coanda himself described this 1910 aircraft in great detail in numerous patents. It was a ducted fan. No fuel injection, no combustion. This is also how it was described at the Paris air-show. His pathetic attempts to steal the cradit for other people's inventions 30 years later are just sad. Romaniantruths ( talk) 15:25, 30 July 2010 (UTC) Romaniantruths ( talk) 15:32, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Where and how did he spent World War II? -- Error 00:26, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Well there is this reference I found on page 174 of Flight International: "Two years after the fall of France - towards the end of 1942 - M. Coanda recieved a contract from the Germans for the developement of a propulsion system for ambulance snow sleds, ostensibly for use in Russia..." Romaniantruths ( talk) 21:55, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
This proposal is probably related to the Sled he made for the Czar Back before WWI. The old sled is described in contemporary reports as being driven by a ducted fan like device (popular mechanics, Mar 1911). This makes sense since what I've seen of the Flight International article about the sled he designed to assist the Nazi war effort discusses Coanda using venturis to increase the thrust of his sled. This also raises some question about his post-WWII claims that his 'turbo-propulseur' was a motorjet and not just a ducted fan. Romaniantruths ( talk) 22:45, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
In the history of the aviation Coandă is credited for two major discoveries: The Coanda-1910 airplane and the Coandă effect. The revolutionary plane that Coandă built in 1910 was way ahead of its time by the fact that it had no propeller and it used a reactive jet for propulsion; The issue is that he was the very first to build a jet engine, regardless of the technology; of course, in today's jet engine, the technology used is the gas turbine and not the thermojet, but this doesn't change the fact that he was the first who thought of that.
A simple search on the references will guide you the same answer: Coandă is credited today 100 % as the father of the modern jet aircraft. Cristibur 03:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Why do you think it's possible that Whittle, Von Ohain, or Campini knew about his attempts? He never made any attempts. The 1910 Coanda was a ducted fan design, and was described as such at the paris air show. All contemporary accounts make this clear, as they also make clear that he never got off the ground. The story about it being a jet didn't come into existence until after WWII, and is completely unsubstantiated. Romanianlies ( talk) 21:42, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Have a look at the the talk page for Coanda 1910 Romaniantruths ( talk) 21:39, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
And while you're at it look at the patents for Coanda's turbopropulseur. They describe the device in great detail, as patents do, but say NOTHING about the injection or combustion of fuel. Romaniantruths ( talk) 20:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
The very description is clear: "the plane used a 4-cylinder piston engine to power a compressor, which was intended to propel the craft by a combination of suction at the front and airflow out the rear instead of using a propeller. The nature of this drive system is clearly described in several patents Coanda took out on it in 1910(French), and 1911" this is NOT the description of a ducted fan, however someone tries to name it such. It is the description of a reactive engine. There is no fan or ducted fan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.118.2.13 ( talk) 17:12, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Yes, the description is that of a ducted fan. Look at the diagrams and see the centrifugal fan, and the duct it sits in. Calling it something else doesn't change what it is. But I can see that at least you're in full agreement with me that it's not a jet. Romaniantruths ( talk) 18:54, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
The article states
"the Coandă-1916, with two propellers mounted close to the tail; this design was to be reprised in the "Caravelle" transport aeroplane, for which Coandă was a technical consultant."
I'd fix the link to point to the Caravelle Airliner, if there was any evidence linking this twin jet design with a twin pusher propellor one I've never seen. Is that the right Caravelle? Number774 ( talk) 22:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have ANY evidence that this thing was a jet? Of course not. All the patents Coanda filed describe this as a ducted fan, all the coverage of the 1910 air show it was shown at describe it as a ducted fan. Coanda tried to use forged documents to grab the credit for others inventions, but his forgery was pathetic and fooled nobody. Romaniantruths ( talk) 17:03, 2 August 2010 (UTC) A 4-cylinder piston engine to power a compressor is not a "ducted fan" or a kind of "ducted fan". It is a thermojet. Is there any evidence for any fraud? I haven't seen such, but the very acid comments of a biased person who signs under "Romaniantruths" nickname. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.118.2.13 ( talk) 17:02, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Try looking up the word thermojet, if you learn what one is then maybe you'll be able to understand why you're completely wrong. It has compressed air mixed with fuel and burned to produce thrust. Coanda's very lame attempt at a ducted fan had no fuel injection and no combustion. And it also had no usable thrust. Ample evidence of his sorry attempts at fraud are available to anyone who looks for them. You could try looking up Coanda 1910 on wikipedia for starters. Then when you see the clear evidence of his ridiculous lies you can let us know how wrong you were. Romaniantruths ( talk) 19:18, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, if you mention the name and pages from some old magazines which nobody can verify what is exactly write there you prouve just nothing, just your own frustrations, Romaniantruths. Either you present the pages or the brevets, a facsimile or something, either you agree with mainstream believe and scientific world who say it was the first jet engine and first jet aircraft. Yes, it was a rudimentar jet engine and aircraft, a thermojet or air-jet, and not a turbojet, but there are too ramjets or scramjets etc. not just the turbojet, fact is he was the first who put a jet engine created by him on a plane (a revolutionary plane not just regarding the propulsion system) created by him. Do you think that if his invention wasnt true, academic researchers, French Academy and so on, wouldnt react and reveal the truth? Its just some british frustration who try to stole this reality, and make them look like the inventors of jet engine and jet planes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.208.215 ( talk) 08:33, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Anyone can verify all these references on the internet, which is where I got them. Since you are having trouble performing this basic task I'll make it childishly simple for you(not that I am in any way suggesting that you are childishly simple, you are obviously a mature and brilliant individual). Go to the Henri Coanda page. Scroll down to the bottom. Click on "The Patents Of Henri Coanda". Read his patents for the turbopropulseur, where he describes it in his own clear and unambiguous words as to function. These patents describe a ducted fan, and not a jet. The other references can all be found on google books, which I assume you can figure out for yourself. These references mostly predate the invention of the jet engine, and Henri Coanda's shameful attempt to steal the credit for this invention from all those who played some role in it's developement. I might also add that websites repeating Coanda's various and inconsistant stories are not evidence of anything but the fact that a lot of websites do shoddy research(all they had to do was examine his patents.) You have made various points in your statement which really should be refuted, such as the way you set yourself up as the ultimate arbiter of 'mainstream believe and scientific world', but I can tell from your note that you are an individual of rare qualities and high-minded Ideals who will see the error of your ways as soon as you follow those directions and read the references. Romaniantruths ( talk) 02:27, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
I didnt find any "turbopropulseur" there, maybe you can be more specific and point out exactly where you find that patent, and give a direct link. There is anyway the French patent 418.401 from 1910 where the engine and turbine details are presented, and other pictures and details are in archives of Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace in Paris. And they never put in question the fact that Coanda 1910 had a jet engine, quite contrary they always presented it as an avantgarde aircraft with a new propusion system. Not the "turbojet" as is used today, but neverthless a "jet" engine of a more rudimentar type. Coanda presented his ideas about jet suported flight in 1910 at Superori Aeronautic School in Paris and in french magazine "La Tehnique Aeronautique", in june 1910. I understand you have a favourite as the "father of jet flight", but the history is not always as we wish to be. Henri Coanda is the inventor of jet engine (air-jet or thermo-jet or motor-jet, how you wish to call it) and builder of the first jet propelled aircraft. Yes, an english and an german will create some 30 years later the "turbo-jet", a new jet more fiabile and powerful, but fact is that first "jet" was the one of Coanda, and except some fanboys from Britain (or maybe even Germany) who doesnt recognize that, scholars and scientific world never deny this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.207.189 ( talk) 08:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, if you dont trust "my stories" about some magazines, why to trust yours? And why do you think the French Air and Space Museum who have that patent doesnt say that Coanda 1910 wasnt a "jet" aircraft? Why do you think peoples who write those books in the bibliography presented here (not by me) said Coanda was the inventor of the jet engine? Do you think they didnt study a little before to write their books, and you, an anonymus guy from wikipedia with a an agenda of your own, know better? The engine was clearly not a simple "ducted fan" as you try to imply, but a "motorjet, thermojet, airjet", however is called, and is clearly a "jet", wheter you liked or not. The one thing that's common to all "jet" engines (thermojet, turbojet, ramjet, scramjet, rocket if you wish) is that they expel essentially heated or compressed air to propel the aircraft. And Coanda 1910 cleary had such an engine. Observing the burning gases expelled by the engine Coanda discovered later the "Coanda effect" and based on that he have 2 patents (in France again), one about the "Coanda effect" and one about the "aerodina lenticulara"/flying saucer, a discoidal flying machine who use jet engines and Coanda effect to fly. And guess what, he send that patent in 1932 and was aproved in 1934, few years before Whittle or von Ohain obtain their turbojet engine working and years before turbojet rudimentary aircrafts took flight. So the only fraud is in your mind, serious institutions as French Air and Space Museums or scholars from Smithsonian from US clearly afirm that Coanda is indeed the "fatehr of the jet engine" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.207.70 ( talk) 19:09, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
I have told you repeatedly where these magazines are available for free reading on the internet. I have also told you repeatedly where to find the patents as well. Have you bothered to read any of them? You're the one who seems to expect any assertion you make to be blindly accepted as the truth. And why do you think that any patent filed years before the invention of the motorjet would say that something wasn't a motorjet? If there really is such a patent it would be filed with the patent office, not the Air and space museum, and it also wouldn't say that the Coanda 1910 wasn't a nuclear reactor, or a flying saucer, or a revolutionary new way to manufacture mentos (the freshmaker!). I also see that you're now trying to expand the definition of jet engine to include anything that emits a jet of gas. This highly dubious assertion would mean that the jet engine was invented by Heron Of Alexandria more than 1500 years earlier. But first things first; are you, or are you not, asserting that the Coanda 1910 burned fuel in it's 'turbopropulseur' (called a 'suction fan' by all those magazines you apparently haven't read), or are you arguing that all ducted fans are jet engines. If you are arguing the latter then we'll have to discuss the various ducted fans Octave Chanute discusses in Progress In Flying Machines, which was published before Coanda even started the seven years it took him to get through high-school.(This is also available for free reading on Googlebooks.) Romaniantruths ( talk) 20:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Man, you are the exponent of why wikipedia sucks many times and is not seen as something reliable by many peoples. You erased some 7 books put by someone here, all saying that Coanda made an jet powered aircraft, then you told me to look at "googlebooks"? Are you kiding? Then you put some names of magazines and told me to search for them, without to present a link for them? The patent you said about, conveniently was "erased" then (how someone can erase stuff from that site?). And real scholars and scientists who work for prestigious institutions are all dumb and was tricked by Coanda now, and just you was smart and get how the things was? Those images and drawnings of engine and patent i said are in custody of Air Museum, where is a replica of the plain too. And guess what, i never saw someone from there saying what you say here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.209.209 ( talk) 07:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
I am not aware the I am required to supply links to all references. The patent was removed from this page, along with many other references. The removal was done, without comment on this page, simultaneously with the addition of the seven references you're complaining about my removal of. I just reverted the edit that removed these patents (and the earlier references by people who actually covered the Airshow where this plane was displayed). If you feel assertions made here should all have links perhaps you can set a good example for me by providing an internet link to this jet patent you refer to and it's related drawings. Your claim that you never saw someone from Air Museum saying what I say here is something I will certainly consider, but what if you weren't there, or weren't looking, when they said it? I have no memory of refering to real scholars and scientists as all being dumb, or of saying that only I am aware of the ducted fan nature of the 1910 Coanda Biplane. Perhaps you would be so kind as to post a link to where I said this as well? Romaniantruths ( talk) 05:09, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Oh boy, you did remove several books writed by historians of aviations, who clearly searched materials for their books in archives, at Air Museums, they saw patents and drawnings and technical references, etc. I dont think they look at wikipedia for them and i dont see yet other books where Coanda 1910 is called a simple ducted fan not even remotly related with a jet. Majority of peoples back then (1910) dont even understand whats about with that new aircraft, and how can fly if doesnt have a propeller. It was something so unusual and weird that even Gustav Eiffel told to Coanda that is pitty he was born some 30 years too early for its time. It is your choice to not trust those peoples who write the books you erased, and you didnt said directly they are dumb, but erasing those books and not taking those scholars in consideration is an indirect conclusion. As well you try to imply that just the "turbojet" is a "jet", which is false again, there are diferent types of jets. As well, as i said, Coanda used the jet propulsion ideas and Coanda effect in early 30's (so before Whittle and von Ohain make their turbojets) for that "aerodina lenticulara" discoidal flying aircraft, and the patent for that was based on what he did and saw and discovered at Coanda 1910 aircraft, including during its short accidental flight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.207.120 ( talk) 15:31, 27 August 2010 (UTC) Claiming these references were by "historians of aviations, who clearly searched materials for their books in archives, at air museums, they saw patents and drawings and technical references etc." Doesn't make it so. Did you think you could get away with saying this without anyone checking? It is entirely untrue. As I suspect are many other unsupported claims you have made here. However these claims can actually be checked. They're bogus! Romaniantruths ( talk) 03:13, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I added a new link, which clarify more the problem. A mention from there "the story and a model of the 1910 Coanda Jet are on display in the foyer of the Aeronautical museum at Le Bourget airport outside Paris". The author which can be acused of not knowing what he talking about stated that Coanda 1910 was undoubtely the first jet aircraft, and he clearly know what appear on that French Museum as well, where original story, planns, drawnings and a model are presented. If it wasnt to be a jet, i dont think he will write that. I hope as well that you wouldnt erase this link as you did with those seven history aviation book previously. And about the british patent from 1911 you show, there is not the original one regarding Coanda 1910, but another thing, related with improvments for a propeller. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.208.23 ( talk) 06:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, maybe Charles Gibbs-Smith is a highly regarded aviation historian, in UK. I can show too some highly regarded historians from Romania who write about Coanda. Thats why some independent aviation historians are more reliable, and i will add several books again (and i hope you will have the decency to not erase them again). Btw, i didnt erase anything from you before you erase those books (which wasnt even posted by me). About the PDF document, i suppose you didnt read it, it was writed by a very respectable american rocket scientist, and he mention about the Coanda-1910 and his all story, presented at Le Bourget Museum of Air and Space. He mention as well that it was undoubtly the first jet aircraft in the world and i dont think he would make such claims if he doesnt know about the aircraft and its history as was presented there. Nor do i think that peoples from that Museum who clearly saw (or even have there) the original french patent of Coanda will presented in a wrong way, or have Coanda much later drawning new stuff on the old patent (as you seem to imply) I higly doubt that some writers for a magazine know better then him, or that a patent from UK talking about the improvements for a propeller is the same with the engine of Coanda-1910. As i said most peoples doesnt understand back then how the engine functioned, it was, as Eiffel said, some 30-50 years ahead of its time. And if you see how an aircraft look like in 1910, compared with Coanda-1910, you will see he was right. None of your sources present the original patent and some are just magazines, its like i read today journals to make an idea about something neither i, neither the writers there dont understand well. Thtas why i stick with aviation historians who have researched more in deep the problem. And some independent ones, not a romanian or a british —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.208.72 ( talk) 07:58, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Well, it is what Stine said too, and i will put a link to Smithsonian Museum archives, where Coanda aircraft is called directly "the world first jet". The patent you present, i see the title is something like "improvements of a propeller" or something like that, is not the patent regarding Coanda-1910, which you dont show it until now (and i doubt you can interpret corectly even that first patent). Thats why i trust more real and known aviation historians and scientist who surely have a better understanding of the problem. I put 2 links from 2 International Aeronautics and Astronautics simposions (i hope the scientist who was invited there are good enough for you), one of some german scientists (from Technology University of Dresden) who make 10 years of researches for their book ( http://www.jstor.org/pss/3105820), as well the opinion held by Stine and those from Smithsonian Museum of Air and Space and other american and romanian aviation historians. I didnt wanted to use romanian sources not because i dont trust them, but to not look biased. In exchange you show me titles of old magazines (mostly which cannot be verified) where are writed couple lines about the aircraft and its propulsion sistem, which probably the authors have little knowledge, it was more like exotic news put in a corner of a page, without too many details. And of course, the Gibbs-Smith (second hand source), which obviously you trust more then Coanda for ex (first hand source). Why do you think that americans, germans, romanians, french, all acknowledge that Coanda-1910 was the world first jet (i agree, not the turbojet mostly used today, but nevertheless a jet), and just some brits consider is not? Is not that i am racist or something, far from me that, it was just an observation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.209.217 ( talk) 07:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Man, you are really pathetic. Are you assume that lots of scientists and historian aviation are some idiots, and just you (or Gibbs and soem Royal british aeronautic institute know whats hpaened? The old magazines (which have couple lines writed about the plane, clearly having no idea whats about with it) are pretty much ussles, they just recorded the event. And did ever ask why just Gibbs said that, and all others from the other parts of the world go with Coanda? Wake up —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.206.162 ( talk) 15:09, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
This needs explaining. Why is it notable that he designed something that was the same shape as the avrocar? So did the inventors of the discus, the frisbee, and the wok. Romaniantruths ( talk) 11:33, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Man, your bias is so big that you become almost delirious. So now you compare a complicated aircraft with a frisbee just because they have somehow the same general shape, and, obviously, because was invented (again, for your despair) first time by Coanda? Whats next, why to talk about "clasical" aircrafts, because the birds (or pterodactils) have first the idea to have wings? This is the page of Henri Coanda and his life, realisations, inventions, creations etc. It is normal to be presented such stuff here, created by him or inspired by his ideas (as the Avrocar was inspired by his "aerodina lenticulara") —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.207.120 ( talk) 15:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
I am genuinely gratified to see from your above post that you agree with me that comparing something to the avrocar merely because of it's shape is inappropriate. I will do you the favor of removing the offending comparison forthwith. I was unaware, however, that Coanda invented the frisbee, perhaps you could provide a link to this information? With warmest regards Romaniantruths ( talk) 21:27, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
I need to repeat myself, since you either are biased either have comprehension problems. I hope is the first one, but you need to control it after all, its embarasing. Coanda patented in 30`s a lenticular (discoidal) shape aircraft powered by some jet engines and using the Coanda effect. Decades later after that, Avro build a discoidal aircraft using Coanda effect for moving. If you consider that they dont inspire from Coanda, but from a frisbee, to make that Avrocar, then good luck in your plays with the coleagues from kindergarten, we dont have much to talk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.207.92 ( talk) 09:18, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Let's begin a discussion of what the sources say, in detail. We should stick to verifiable and reliable sources, of course. What they say will determine the article. Binksternet ( talk) 15:50, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
a suction turbine that takes the place of the ordinary aeroplane propeller
Ok, i see you edited some posts, with no explanation, and re write some alternative history put there by another poster, entirely invented by him (the one with Coanda discovered the effect who bear his name in Eiffel wind tunell or something like that. Well, there is no such thing, and nobody said that until that person post that crap here, which you gladly restored. I am new here, i know that wikipedia is not usualy trusted by most of the peoples, is just a general reference for them, and that is precisely because such biased presentations and crap interpretations. I understand that a neutral point of view must be presented, but i wasnt able to see that here, but just an endless re edited text presenting just one point of view, of some british historian of aviation. About the article from that old magazine. Well, in that time aviation was just started, there was just few airplanes made by few peoples in few countries. All was their own inventions, with diferent styles, wings, engines etc. Nobody know much about this new appeared science, not even those inventors, and much less the journalists. An aircraft as Coanda-1910 was so weird and unusual compared with the other fews in existence, then was even believed it can fly, because it doesnt had a propeller. Except maybe Coanda, the inventor of the engine, nobody understanded well how that was constructed, and how functioned. The name "jet engine" wasnt even invented, didnt existed at that moment. So the journalists who had no knowledge and expertise in that domain, especialy regarding "jet engines" who was something beyond that time used the description they think they know and understand, and their readers might understand as well. Thats why we cant put that much trust in those couple lines writed among many others related with general science stuff in a magazine on that era, and the best is to look at more modern scholars and scientists and historians of aviation. They have studied the patents, the engine, the drawinings, the description of the plane, and have too the knowledge and expertise to understand what kind of engine or aircraft was. Thats why someone like Stine is better then a journalist from that time, who had no expertise in jet engines and just saw the aircraft and couple things about it, without to understand much what was about and who write in the terms he know. I hope that this was clear enough, and pathetic actions as erasing links to books or magazines with serious scholars opinion will not continue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.208.43 ( talk • contribs)
No, it was more about Popular Mechanics, but since you mention Flight, look how they describe Coanda-1910 http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1910/1910%20-%200883.html?search=Coanda%20Paris%20%20Flight%20Salon&tracked=1 A turbine driven aircraft with no propeller. I assume from this know Gibbs that aircraft was buyed by somebody too. I dont know what to say, and how much peoples from Flight knew about the aircraft. Not too much, as i saw, about the details of the engine. Its interesting what that guy asked too, about the use of 2 propellers in a kind of turbine, one moved by the exhaust gases of another (which is not quite Coand idea and engine) and the negative answer he received. Thts why i said that sources from that times are not quite reliable in the sense that they dont understand well the technical feats of some stuff. Aviation just apeared, and most peoples either dont understand much, either was use just with the "normal" airplanes they saw. I read too what Gibbs said, his reason why Coanda wasnt a jet is that if so, the flames will burn the aircraft and the pilot (so he dont know if Coanda added or not gasoline, just make an assumption that if he did, that can happen as he said). But precisely because of that Coanda added those metal plates, to defect the flames away from the plane body and "cockpit". He didnt use either the full power, and when he tried to verify the aircraft, this start to move on. Coanda said then that he was scared to see the flames not deflected, but curved around those metal plates and coming towards him and the plane, thats why he reduced the power and the plane who tooked off crushed. And thats why the aircraft was never saw again, sold or not to that misterious mr Weiman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.208.26 ( talk) 06:31, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
In this letter to the editor of Flight, published 14 October 1960, Charles Gibbs-Smith writes:
Might I suggest Mr Servian looks at pages 220-221 of my new book, where he will find the Coanda case discussed in detail. The extraordinary claim was not made until 1956; and the Coanda sesquiplane, which was shown in the Paris Salon of 1910, was disinterred from its obscurity.
I won't bore Mr Servian with the many details here, but he will see what a delightful claim it is when I tell him that the 'turbo-propulseur' (driven at 4,000 r.p.m. by a 50 h.p. Clerget) was mounted around the nose of the aircraft and was intended to blow back all round the fuselage, including round the pilot as he sat erect in his cockpit (begoggled, one hopes). If this innocent air (and plain air was all it was ever meant to hurl back) was turned into a burning jet, it would have been the most inelegant way of committing suicide ever devised.
The whole claim is naughty nonsense, as Mr Servian will see from the material I have set out in the book. There was never any idea of injecting fuel; the machine never flew; it was never destroyed on test; and Flight noted that it was soon sold to a Monsieur Weyman.
The claim said that after the disastrous crash (which never happened) Coanda wished to begin a 'second aircraft', but 'his funds were exhausted.' Within a year he was gaily exhibiting (in October 1911) a brand new propeller-driven machine at the Reims Concours Militaire, and then went on to a distinguished career in aviation.
(The letter Gibbs-Smith was responding to was one written by T. R. Servian of Croyden, Surrey, England, printed in September 1960 Flight.)
To me, this means that Coanda made no jet claims until 1956 at which time he said the Coanda-1910 was an early jet, that it flew once and crashed, and that he could not continue its development for lack of funds. Gibbs-Smith suggests that any flames in the "plain air" output would have killed the pilot, and he notes that Coanda was not at all short of funds—he dropped his unsuccessful 1910 design and immediately started fabricating a prop-plane which was ready in 1911.
The book Gibbs-Smith was referring to in his letter was The aeroplane: an historical survey of its origins and development, published just a little earlier in 1960. A section entitled "The Coanda Sesquiplane of 1910" begins on page 220, starting with "There has recently arisen some controversy about this machine, designed by..." I consider Gibbs-Smith the ultimate observer of this controversy, impartial yet pointedly direct in his rebuttal to Coanda's claims. Binksternet ( talk) 03:45, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, but is not convincing for me, beeing less to be trusted then romanian sources. And anyway Harry Stine is much more qualified then him, and is neutral too. As well dont erase anymore that PDF article (or any article, link, books who is about the subject etc.), is about Coanda effect. Yes, i know its bother you because it said that Coanda build and flow the first jet plane in the world, but its Stine opinion, which i think everybody agree its quite qualified in this matter. Its easy for me too to erase links and articles and present just one side of view, even to re-write the entire page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.24.129.40 ( talk) 21:01, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
This article from Flight 24 June 1955 predates Coanda's claim to early jet invention. The article, "Without Visible Means of Support" by A. R. Weyl, mentions Coanda in passing as the inventor of a "ducted-fan-propelled aeroplane", though he credits G. Koch with inventing an earlier ducted airscrew in 1893. Weyl does not say anything about the Coanda-1910 being an early jet, because Coanda had not yet made such a claim. Binksternet ( talk) 04:01, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
In January 1973, Flight printed an obituary of "Dr Henri Coanda" in which he was credited with the invention of "a ducted fan aeroplane and the development of fluid dynamics." The obit called Coanda's 1910 design "unsuccessful" though it "set a precedent". Nowhere in the obituary is any sort of rudimentary jet engine design mentioned, though it goes into a bit of detail about other works such as desalinization. Binksternet ( talk) 04:10, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
It can't be described as a source but it might be a jumping off point - searching through Flight, I found [ a (1911) request for info on the turbo-propulseur. So far I have not found anything in the correspondence pages of following issues. Unfortunately the search is limited by the quality of the OCR (I found a "th" identified as a "m" in an unrelated dig) so a lack of match does not mean an absence of the text searched for. The request mentions its use with "Gregoire" motor sleighs which might be another avenue. GraemeLeggett ( talk) 16:07, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes, i searched too, but didnt find much, i find some page, but just couple lines of an article was presented, and the next page was missing unfortunately. I think the first aparition in Flight is the one with the pictures, where is said is a turbine-driven aircraft with no propeller, but the details are scarce next —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.24.129.40 ( talk) 21:04, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I am removing a link to a paper by the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation:
The paper is not written about aviation engineering, it is about the Coanda effect in hydraulics. The author cites Stine's 1989 work, and adds no new observations. Whatever this link was giving is already given by Stine, so this one has no value here. Binksternet ( talk) 23:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I have removed some sentences that claim widespread belief in Coanda's jet claims, a belief that gives no names of who was saying what. The sentences are not useful unless persons can be matched to their statements.
Here is the section, with removed text in italics:
The assertions that "most of modern" and "a series of american and romanian aviation historians" are not supported by cites. Binksternet ( talk) 23:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I am removing sentences that give the Coanda-1910 passable heat shields which are supposed to withstand a jet exhaust:
The assertion by Gibbs-Smith that the pilot would be killed by a jet exhaust takes all the Coanda features into account. Whatever heat shields the aircraft could claim would not have been enough to save the pilot from death if fuel were ignited in a combustion chamber. The only heat was from heat exchangers, pressurized air, and piston engine exhaust. The notional heat shields that would have saved the pilot are not visible at all in photographs. Binksternet ( talk) 23:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Let's stop editing this article in relation to any of the Coandă-1910 material until after the RfC at Talk:Coandă-1910#RfC:_How_to_present_the_controversy_to_the_reader has run its course. We are sorting out how the contradictory claims in the matter will be presented. Binksternet ( talk) 23:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
So, after getting called an idiot, I have now received threats over my recent edits. Any admins care to warn 79.116.208.237? Brutal Deluxe ( talk) 12:16, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Here are the external links I removed:
I have added citation needed tags to both of these since they have no citations, and since I've personally read the patent usually described as his 1930's flying saucer and it definitely isn't a flying saucer. It's a design for a stationary propeller that uses the Bernoulli effect by blowing gas over a mushroom shaped construction. The aerodynamic train should have a citation tag too (patents for aerodynamic trains date back to the late 19th century, I'll find a reference later if it's necessary), but this page is already cluttered with citation tags because it's so full of uncited (and in my opinion inaccurate) claims. Romaniantruths ( talk) 03:40, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
The images and pics with patents reproduced are from Museum of Technology "Dimitrie Leonida" from Bucharest. Coanda family donated all his archive to Air Museum, Military Museum and this museum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.206.171 ( talk) 12:55, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Only one of these images dates to the era in question. and in that one only part of the image does and that part is the patent I mentioned above. I know that patent exists, and what it is, since I've read it. I have no reason to believe any of the other images have any provenance whatsoever. They are therefore useless. Romaniantruths ( talk) 17:29, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Once again I have removed the image URLs which keep returning, supposedly as references to support Aerodina Lenticulara:
These images are unsuitable as references. They are created or assembled by people other than Coanda, and have no verifiability. Binksternet ( talk) 14:54, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed the sentence "Others say it merely crashed" from the end of Walter Boyne's quoted sentences about the Coanda-1910. Boyne is demonstrably wrong about what "others say"—Winter and Gibbs-Smith say it did not fly at all, let alone crashed. I see no reason why this phrase of Boyne's should be included in his quote, if it is so wrong. Binksternet ( talk) 15:42, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed this quote:
These airplanes we have today are no more than a perfection of a child's toy made of paper. In my opinion, we should search for a completely different flying machine, based on other flying principles. I imagine a future aircraft, which will take off vertically, fly as usual, and land vertically. This flying machine should have no moving parts. This idea came from the huge power of cyclones.
I took it out because it was not found anywhere in a thorough book search, or in scholarly papers. The only places I found it were unreliable webpages about famous quotes. If we can give proper attribution to this quote (when and where) then we can return it to the article. Binksternet ( talk) 21:56, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
This is from a discurs held at Romanian Academy, i have see somewhere a link, but is in romanian, need to search for it, dont have much time now —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.209.125 ( talk) 08:02, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
The references in the lead (2,3,4,5,and6) all show the 1910 Coanda was described at the time as what would be today called a ducted fan, not that it was just an experimental aircraft. I have changed the lead to reflect this. Romaniantruths ( talk) 02:18, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
At Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 79, there was a discussion about the JPG URLs that some editors keep trying to put into the article. They are not appropriate. Binksternet ( talk) 15:46, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I have tried to remove Boyne's sentence "Others say it merely crashed" because it does not express a major viewpoint—it is a throwaway sentence in a magazine article written by Boyne.
At Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_78, Boyne is discussed. One IP editor says that Boyne is one of the most reliable sources, and that he calls the Coanda-1910 a primitive jet. The IP editor says (incorrectly) that Boyne affirms this in all of his books where he covers the subject. My response was the following:
So Boyne is a fine source in general aviation, especially military aviation, but he does not talk in detail about Coanda in his books, and the disputed sentence is one from his only magazine article which tells a small amount of detail about Coanda. He calls the engine a "primitive jet" in the magazine but a "ducted fan compressor" in the book, a stronger reference. Boyne is not the magic source by which the Coanda-1910 will be saved. Binksternet ( talk) 15:46, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
There are a few problems with this section: Activities? would this include things like camping and shuffleboard? It makes the section look a little weird, and it's makes the section a depot for things which belong in the body of the text. In fact several of the entries are just re-iterations of things already discussed in the main body of the article(Like various Bristol aircraft he designed). Also, the solar de-salinisation system: Is he supposed to have invented it? Or designed one? Romaniantruths ( talk) 05:10, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
Why were all the contemporary references erased from the lead, and the article? They all describe what Coanda said about his aircraft at the airshow(that it was a ducted fan). Romaniantruths ( talk) 20:12, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
For two months now I have been steadily reverting the same general content added by IP editors, the latest one being 193.xxx after the 79.xxx series was blocked, because the IP edits are taking this article in the wrong direction.
The IP edits are of the nature of arguing the Coandă-1910 story here on this page rather than on that article's page. Too much detail about the Coandă-1910 keeps being introduced to this article, but Coandă was much more of an engineer than that one aircraft. He invented a wide array of devices, and experienced great success in other matters. This biography article is not the place to put too much emphasis, per WP:WEIGHT, on one small aspect of the man's life.
Specifically, I have been removing assertions that the Coandă-1910 was "the first aircraft constructed for air-reactive propulsion", because at least one expert source (Winter) questions this fact, I have removed "turbine powered" because the modern definition of turbine does not include what the 'turbo-propulseur' could do, and I have removed a group of patent documents that are too much detail for this bio. Gibbs-Smith was quoted as saying "the first full-size attempt at a jet-propelled aeroplane" but the context was not explained, the quote was too much detail for a bio, and Winter gives a different possibility (that Canovetti might have been first). I have removed a whole paragraph about aircraft details—wa-a-ay too much granularity for this bio. Binksternet ( talk) 16:56, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
The problems are:
re the quote. What's the copyright problem with it? It's not Allstar's copyright to claim, whatever they stick in the page footer. It is Coanda's copyright, but short quotes are under fair use (this is how Allstar are already using it).
re the desalination images, I'd see the first (the plant image) as acceptable, but not the second. This is because the second adds nothing to the first image, other than some non-English text. Anything we could gain from the second is better done by adding text ourselves.
Binksternet, don't throw them such an easy bone. Anon IP, I just hope you're not Lsorin socking away... Andy Dingley ( talk) 15:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
I added a tag to the top of the article stating that it contains sources that may be unreliable. Specifically, I am questioning this one:
It appears to have been written by George Olteanu on 3 September 2010 for Go4It, a Romanian gadget and technology website that reminds me of gdgt.com. Who is Olteanu? We have no indication of his level of expertise. The post looks more like a hosted blog than anything else; it was posted in the Technology Curiosities section (Curiozitati). Olteanu appears to have written several posts about Coanda: [19], [20], [21], [22], and [23]. Olteanu looks to me like an amateur fan of Coanda.
These articles are fun to read but not high on the reliable/verifiable scale. There are better sources we can use to describe the man's accomplishments, I am sure. Binksternet ( talk) 13:32, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
Well, all the articles are based on materials from Museum of Technic Dimitire Leonida from Bucharest, where most of Coanda archives are located. About "aerodina lenticulara/flying saucer" is based as well on what this guy say
I removed the PDF external link call "Henri Coanda: The Facts", hosted by newfluidtechnology.com.
This PDF has no author, and is unverifiable. No level of author expertise can be assessed. This link fails WP:V and WP:RS, and violates WP:ELPOV as it gives too much credence to Coanda's version of events.
According to WP:ELNO, we should be following this guideline: Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research, except to a limited extent in articles about the viewpoints that the site is presenting. The PDF gives misleading statements about Coanda, specifically, it says the following:
The PDF has some interesting photos but its text is misleading in places. In the PDF, the photos are said to be given by G. Harry Stine but this is not proven and there could be a copyright violation. The bigger problem is the presence of misleading statements. Binksternet ( talk) 21:26, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
I have semi-protected the article for the time being due to constant edit warring, please gain a consensus for inclusion or otherwise on this talk page. MilborneOne ( talk) 14:28, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
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Current version of the text is:
Upon his return in 1909, he travelled to Paris, where he enrolled in the newly founded École Nationale Superieure d'Ingenieurs en Construction Aéronautique (now the École Nationale Supérieure de l'Aéronautique et de l'Espace, also known as SUPAERO). One year later (1910) he graduated at the head of the first class of aeronautical engineers.
However, there is a confusion between two french aerospace schools, École Nationale Superieure d'Ingenieurs en Construction Aéronautique (known as ENSICA) and École Nationale Superieure d'Aeronautique et de Construction Mecaniques (known as ENSA and then ENSAE, or SUPAERO). M. Coanda was a student at École Nationale Superieure d'Aeronautique et de Construction Mecaniques (founded in 1909 and that changed its name for École Nationale Supérieure de l'Aéronautique et de l'Espace) and not at École Nationale Superieure d'Ingenieurs en Construction Aéronautique (founded much later, in 1946).
The text should be modified as follow:
Upon his return in 1909, he travelled to Paris, where he enrolled in the newly founded École Nationale Superieure d'Aeronautique et de Construction Mecaniques (now the École Nationale Supérieure de l'Aéronautique et de l'Espace, also known as SUPAERO). One year later (1910) he graduated at the head of the first class of aeronautical engineers.
Thank you for editing as soon as possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.54.120.175 ( talk) 16:10, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
This highly controversial, unacceptably sourced garbage is still up there. WHY? Bunksternit, you put this up there and ignored objections to it while keeping the page protected to maintain these spurious claims. I want an explanation. Ion G Nemes ( talk) 04:07, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
This article claims Henri Coanda discovered the Coanda effect, which is contradictory with Coandă effect, where Coanda's contribution was just in recognizing its practical applications. mudava ( talk) 18:37, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
"... a controversial claim disputed by some and supported by others." Surely a controversial claim is by definition "disputed by some and supported by others." Zgryphon ( talk) 05:58, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
User:Andy Dingley Who do you think you are? You, who has not even 0.01% of Coandă's knowledge and learning, you, who contributed with nothing to the world, YOU, dare make HIM, a LIAR?! You scum, you don't even deserve to kiss his toe, yet you think you can decide for him! No wonder the world has gotten this low, no wonder the Wiki is so criticized, as long as likes like you, who have no notion of respect or recognition, are running things!... Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 09:56, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
"Very little to support it"...how about your eyes? You're not blind, right? Everyone who looks at that for the first time says "wow, a jet", I think you're the only one in the world who doesn't... -_- Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 10:06, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
You wouldn't react much better if you'd be in my place...Seeing your country tarnished, it's history and contributions disconsidered, the achievements of it's people denied and contested 24/7...it's a very unpleasant feeling...You're probably American, so you can't possibly understand how I feel, but simply put: I just want justice... Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 15:17, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
It WAS a jet engine, but it was the very first one, ofcourse it didn't have what you find today in a jet engine, because it was made over 100 years ago! Even if you don't want to call it a jet engine, you still have to admit that this was the first real step in the development of jet engines. Expecting it, in 1910, to have what others had over 30 years later is just absurd and biased. There's this thing, it's called evolution. We humans evolved from monkeys. That doesn't make monkeys humans, but they are still the starting point. Just like with Coandă here, he made the "monkey" of the jet flight. Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 16:57, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Monkey is just a figure of speech, anyway that was not even the focus, did you even get what I meant to say or not? I had enough of arguing over obvious things with redundant people like you. -_- 18:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC) Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 18:49, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
How am I wrong? How? I only say what Coanda said about his OWN invention! Who do you think you are to tell a man what he invented? It's his invention, so he has the sole right to name it! Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 19:13, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
It's true that there were some exaggerations, but you can't just say that we can't have a claim for anything. Like, for instance, I claim that the Western WW2 documentaries would stop acting like we didn't exist, I don't think that's an unjustified claim. Besides, Protochronism is about Dacians and their role in the forming of the Romanian nation. Dacia was our starting point, Dacians were our ancient ancestors. There is no connection between them and Coanda, and you are being very absurd right now. I know what my nation did, what it deserves and what is it's place. And I see no exaggeration in Protochronism We are Dacians. All of you Westerners squeal like pigs when any afinity to our ancient Dacia is even mentioned, but we know who we are, and we definately don't need YOU to tell us who we are! We are Dacians who eveolved and continued to dwell here. I am a Dacian. I feel and consider myself a Dacian. There's no way for a history-less people like the Americans to tell me who I am. -_- Romanian-and-proud ( talk) 21:05, 12 December 2015 (UTC)