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The Beatles record refered to in this article is listed as The White Album, however, the actual title of the record is The Beatles the "white album" is just a nickname resulting from the record's packaging.
The Wikipedia copyright policy says: If you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States (Intellectual Reserve v. Utah Lighthouse Ministry). The tatelabianca blog states that it is carrying the contents of the book is copyright, and not of the blog author or owner. It is, of course, highly unlikely that the blog will ever be sued, but per our policy we may not link to that external site unless and until it can demonstrate that the content is carried by permission of the rights holder. The introduction rather seems to state the opposite, being rather an apologia for not having permission. Removing the link to the blog does not impact on the article since the citations are to the book itself and their validity is independent of the ability to link to content of the book. Many citations to print sources can't link to the source online, this is not a problem as long as sufficient detail is provided for independent verification. In that respect, page numbers would be useful. Guy ( Help!) 16:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I am reluctantly going to undo the series of edits by 24.5.15.124. At first, I simply undid his/her worst error, the alteration of the verb "pored" to "poured" in a context in which the former was correct; but now I am going to undo his/her elimination of bracketed substitutions that were necessary to make quoted passages accurate or intelligible. (To put it bluntly: he/she seems to have no knowledge of the function of brackets in quoted passages.) When I do so, I will also be undoing his/her heading changes, whose importance, for better or worse, is not great. In other words, I'm going to execute a mass-undo rather than attempt to undo the de-bracketing instance by instance. JohnBonaccorsi 23:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
At 04:51, 7 March 2008, the article’s opening sentence was revised as follows:
Previously, the sentence was this:
The revision is unclear and misconceived. What is meant by "Manson’s interpretation of Helter Skelter," the phrase the revision employs to introduce the subject of the article? Does it mean Manson’s interpretation of the everyday word helter-skelter? It can’t mean that. It apparently means Manson’s interpretation of the Beatles' song "Helter Skelter" — or, arguably, of the term helter skelter as used in the song; but neither the song nor the term (as used in the song) is the article's subject, although both certainly have to do with the subject. The subject, as is indicated at the head of the article and as is clear throughout it, is "Charles Manson’s prophesied war" — the war that he predicted and that he took to be the subject of that song and, in fact, several other Beatles songs.
I am going to undo the revision. 71.242.167.173 ( talk) 02:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Encyclopedia articles are supposed to summarize. This article should not list and explain every Beatles song connected to this fantasy. It's way too much detail. Tempshill ( talk) 03:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
At 06:00, 30 June 2009, an editor added the word "supposed" to the article’s first sentence:
I am going to delete "supposed." Manson’s preaching of Helter Skelter is attested, in whole or in part, in the following:
I could present a few other items — and there might be yet others, which are not coming to my mind or with which I’m not familiar. The above is enough.
Opposed to all of that, as far as I know, is nothing but mere gainsaying. This, for instance, is from Manson himself, at about the one-fifth point of his 1992 parole hearing:
That doesn’t justify the use of "supposed" in the article’s opening sentence; and, in fact, the use of "supposed" is irresponsible if it’s based on nothing more than that sort of thing. It merely ratifies Manson’s self-serving denials.
Any editor who is aware of substantive statements that raise doubts that Manson preached Helter Skelter will kindly present them here before reinserting "supposed" — or an equivalent word — in the article. 71.242.134.155 ( talk) 07:57, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
In a pair of edits at 05:58 and 06:11, 13 September 2009, I removed the article’s statement that Manson construed " Glass Onion’s" reference to "the fool on the hill" as a reference to the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. The statement was based on the following, which is from Chapter 11 of the Tex Watson autobiography, Will You Die for Me?:
I’d recently been struck that it’s not quite clear there that Watson is saying Manson himself had something to say about "Glass Onion." After another editor entered a revision (at 22:06, 11 September 2009) that revealed that this whole subject is complicated by the reference to the earlier song "The Fool on the Hill," I decided to delete the article’s references to both songs ("Glass Onion" and "The Fool on the Hill"). JohnBonaccorsi ( talk) 06:40, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
I recently became aware of an excerpt from Charles Manson: Coming Down Fast, a recently-published book about Manson. After reading the excerpt, I had copyright questions that I have formulated and addressed in a long document that I have prepared in my Wikipedia “sandbox.” One of the reasons the said sandbox page is long is that it includes the entire excerpt of which I’ve just spoken. If the page were shorter, I would post it here, on the talk-page of the Wikipedia article entitled "Helter Skelter (Manson scenario)"; but because it is so long, I will keep it in my "sandbox." The page is hereby "published," and I ask Wikipedia editors and administrators to read it. In it, I request the assistance of Wikipedia editors and administrators in bringing its copyright questions to the attention of the legal department of Wikipedia or the Wikimedia Foundation. The page is this:
Interesting stuff, but should the wikipedia article be so huge for sth that is basically just a bucketload full of shit 88.72.192.123 ( talk) 14:27, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
This article basically a long treatise on a murderer's insane fantasy. Not sire if it fits wikipedia guideline. -- 222.255.193.81 ( talk) 09:40, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Personally, I thought this was fascinating and well structured. If I think a portion is too wordy I can skim. PurpleChez ( talk) 12:48, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
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I have just modified 2 external links on Helter Skelter (Manson scenario). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This is a highly questionable article. It argues Bugliosi's case and book. His book already has a page. A prosecutor's job is to argue one side and be subjective by definition. Wikipedia's job is to be neutral. I've made some improvements towards this but overall this is a one sided article. It attributed quotes to people when other people said them. It took something someone said, specifically Paul Watkins and Tex Watson and presented it as objective truth. It's filled with OR from what I can tell. It has many citations that cannot be verified. No URL or isbn. It has many highly questionable sources that may not qualify as reliable on Wikipedia. These are some of the reasons I added these tags. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy ( talk) 19:41, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
I removed the neutral tag after a lot of work. I think the claims and allegations are now correctly attributed and there are no longer any misattributed quotes. Still very unbalanced though. By nature a page like this will be because it proposes a prosecutor's argument which is meant to be unbalanced. However, the way Wikipedia can correct this is by explaining other theories in detail like it did this one. For anyone reading this, there are countless articles and probably 50 books on this. Expanding the copycat theory would be a good start. At some point the alledged drug dealing connections between Watson, Manson and Frykowski, Sebring may be worthwhile. As well as Rosemary LaBiancas drug connections with Sebring, Frykowski, and Watson. Also Rostau. Also Watson's habit of robbing drug dealers. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy ( talk) 23:42, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
On another note I cut a lot of excess including a lot that had nothing to do with the theory or at best was a big stretch. I also fixed the refs and citations. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy ( talk) 23:48, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
The lede mentions that there are alternative (credible) theories, which means that a number of people don't buy into the Helter Skelter narrative. If "Helter Skelter" weren't inherited wisdom due to the best-selling book, I think pretty much anyone would admit it sounds like prosecutorial fantasy. So a criticism section is certainly warranted. The page on the Manson Family for example, says: Mike McGann, an LAPD investigator on the Tate–LaBianca murders, later said, "Everything in Vince Bugliosi's book (Helter Skelter) is wrong. I was the lead investigator on the case. Bugliosi didn't solve it. Nobody trusted him." [1]: 104 Bueller 007 ( talk) 19:24, 16 October 2022 (UTC) Bueller 007 ( talk) 19:24, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
References
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
The Beatles record refered to in this article is listed as The White Album, however, the actual title of the record is The Beatles the "white album" is just a nickname resulting from the record's packaging.
The Wikipedia copyright policy says: If you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States (Intellectual Reserve v. Utah Lighthouse Ministry). The tatelabianca blog states that it is carrying the contents of the book is copyright, and not of the blog author or owner. It is, of course, highly unlikely that the blog will ever be sued, but per our policy we may not link to that external site unless and until it can demonstrate that the content is carried by permission of the rights holder. The introduction rather seems to state the opposite, being rather an apologia for not having permission. Removing the link to the blog does not impact on the article since the citations are to the book itself and their validity is independent of the ability to link to content of the book. Many citations to print sources can't link to the source online, this is not a problem as long as sufficient detail is provided for independent verification. In that respect, page numbers would be useful. Guy ( Help!) 16:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I am reluctantly going to undo the series of edits by 24.5.15.124. At first, I simply undid his/her worst error, the alteration of the verb "pored" to "poured" in a context in which the former was correct; but now I am going to undo his/her elimination of bracketed substitutions that were necessary to make quoted passages accurate or intelligible. (To put it bluntly: he/she seems to have no knowledge of the function of brackets in quoted passages.) When I do so, I will also be undoing his/her heading changes, whose importance, for better or worse, is not great. In other words, I'm going to execute a mass-undo rather than attempt to undo the de-bracketing instance by instance. JohnBonaccorsi 23:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
At 04:51, 7 March 2008, the article’s opening sentence was revised as follows:
Previously, the sentence was this:
The revision is unclear and misconceived. What is meant by "Manson’s interpretation of Helter Skelter," the phrase the revision employs to introduce the subject of the article? Does it mean Manson’s interpretation of the everyday word helter-skelter? It can’t mean that. It apparently means Manson’s interpretation of the Beatles' song "Helter Skelter" — or, arguably, of the term helter skelter as used in the song; but neither the song nor the term (as used in the song) is the article's subject, although both certainly have to do with the subject. The subject, as is indicated at the head of the article and as is clear throughout it, is "Charles Manson’s prophesied war" — the war that he predicted and that he took to be the subject of that song and, in fact, several other Beatles songs.
I am going to undo the revision. 71.242.167.173 ( talk) 02:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Encyclopedia articles are supposed to summarize. This article should not list and explain every Beatles song connected to this fantasy. It's way too much detail. Tempshill ( talk) 03:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
At 06:00, 30 June 2009, an editor added the word "supposed" to the article’s first sentence:
I am going to delete "supposed." Manson’s preaching of Helter Skelter is attested, in whole or in part, in the following:
I could present a few other items — and there might be yet others, which are not coming to my mind or with which I’m not familiar. The above is enough.
Opposed to all of that, as far as I know, is nothing but mere gainsaying. This, for instance, is from Manson himself, at about the one-fifth point of his 1992 parole hearing:
That doesn’t justify the use of "supposed" in the article’s opening sentence; and, in fact, the use of "supposed" is irresponsible if it’s based on nothing more than that sort of thing. It merely ratifies Manson’s self-serving denials.
Any editor who is aware of substantive statements that raise doubts that Manson preached Helter Skelter will kindly present them here before reinserting "supposed" — or an equivalent word — in the article. 71.242.134.155 ( talk) 07:57, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
In a pair of edits at 05:58 and 06:11, 13 September 2009, I removed the article’s statement that Manson construed " Glass Onion’s" reference to "the fool on the hill" as a reference to the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. The statement was based on the following, which is from Chapter 11 of the Tex Watson autobiography, Will You Die for Me?:
I’d recently been struck that it’s not quite clear there that Watson is saying Manson himself had something to say about "Glass Onion." After another editor entered a revision (at 22:06, 11 September 2009) that revealed that this whole subject is complicated by the reference to the earlier song "The Fool on the Hill," I decided to delete the article’s references to both songs ("Glass Onion" and "The Fool on the Hill"). JohnBonaccorsi ( talk) 06:40, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
I recently became aware of an excerpt from Charles Manson: Coming Down Fast, a recently-published book about Manson. After reading the excerpt, I had copyright questions that I have formulated and addressed in a long document that I have prepared in my Wikipedia “sandbox.” One of the reasons the said sandbox page is long is that it includes the entire excerpt of which I’ve just spoken. If the page were shorter, I would post it here, on the talk-page of the Wikipedia article entitled "Helter Skelter (Manson scenario)"; but because it is so long, I will keep it in my "sandbox." The page is hereby "published," and I ask Wikipedia editors and administrators to read it. In it, I request the assistance of Wikipedia editors and administrators in bringing its copyright questions to the attention of the legal department of Wikipedia or the Wikimedia Foundation. The page is this:
Interesting stuff, but should the wikipedia article be so huge for sth that is basically just a bucketload full of shit 88.72.192.123 ( talk) 14:27, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
This article basically a long treatise on a murderer's insane fantasy. Not sire if it fits wikipedia guideline. -- 222.255.193.81 ( talk) 09:40, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 12 external links on Helter Skelter (Manson scenario). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 14:14, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
Personally, I thought this was fascinating and well structured. If I think a portion is too wordy I can skim. PurpleChez ( talk) 12:48, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Helter Skelter (Manson scenario). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
This is a highly questionable article. It argues Bugliosi's case and book. His book already has a page. A prosecutor's job is to argue one side and be subjective by definition. Wikipedia's job is to be neutral. I've made some improvements towards this but overall this is a one sided article. It attributed quotes to people when other people said them. It took something someone said, specifically Paul Watkins and Tex Watson and presented it as objective truth. It's filled with OR from what I can tell. It has many citations that cannot be verified. No URL or isbn. It has many highly questionable sources that may not qualify as reliable on Wikipedia. These are some of the reasons I added these tags. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy ( talk) 19:41, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
I removed the neutral tag after a lot of work. I think the claims and allegations are now correctly attributed and there are no longer any misattributed quotes. Still very unbalanced though. By nature a page like this will be because it proposes a prosecutor's argument which is meant to be unbalanced. However, the way Wikipedia can correct this is by explaining other theories in detail like it did this one. For anyone reading this, there are countless articles and probably 50 books on this. Expanding the copycat theory would be a good start. At some point the alledged drug dealing connections between Watson, Manson and Frykowski, Sebring may be worthwhile. As well as Rosemary LaBiancas drug connections with Sebring, Frykowski, and Watson. Also Rostau. Also Watson's habit of robbing drug dealers. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy ( talk) 23:42, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
On another note I cut a lot of excess including a lot that had nothing to do with the theory or at best was a big stretch. I also fixed the refs and citations. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy ( talk) 23:48, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
The lede mentions that there are alternative (credible) theories, which means that a number of people don't buy into the Helter Skelter narrative. If "Helter Skelter" weren't inherited wisdom due to the best-selling book, I think pretty much anyone would admit it sounds like prosecutorial fantasy. So a criticism section is certainly warranted. The page on the Manson Family for example, says: Mike McGann, an LAPD investigator on the Tate–LaBianca murders, later said, "Everything in Vince Bugliosi's book (Helter Skelter) is wrong. I was the lead investigator on the case. Bugliosi didn't solve it. Nobody trusted him." [1]: 104 Bueller 007 ( talk) 19:24, 16 October 2022 (UTC) Bueller 007 ( talk) 19:24, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
References