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![]() | This article contains a translation of Hilotes from fr.wikipedia. |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 March 2021 and 11 June 2021. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Yautja199. Peer reviewers:
ZuesChill,
FishMan312.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 23:18, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
the phrase in the opening section "Helots were not confined to Sparta" is confusing and ambiguous. Its intended meaning is probably that the practice of keeping Helots existed elsewhere, but it makes sound as though the Helots were a free people. The section makes sense with the deletion of the ambiguous phrase, so that's what I've done. -- Daviticus82 3/16/2007
Shouldn't this article be renamed Helots? The plural in this sort of articles appears to be much more common.-- Aldux 10:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
It's only helot because that was the Status quo - I agree Helots would be better - if there are no counter-argumetns in a few days, will make it so. Bridesmill 13:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
There are many cases in the main body of the article where the past/present tense does not agree (or switches back and forth). If I get around to it, i'll fix it myself, but i've got a lot of work. just thought I'd bring it to someone's attention. -- Storkk 16:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
You uncritically quote Thucydides' exaggerated statement that all Spartan policy was directed by fear of the Helots. Firstly, the translation is contentious. Secondly, though it is a possibility that Sparta was organised in part to keep the Helots in subjection, ask yourself how feared they could have been if the Spartans allowed them to fight alongside them at need. Thirdly, and this is a general point for all writing on Sparta, you need to understand the difficulty of gleaning any information about a state which did not build, did not write, and whose chroniclers mostly came from its great enemy, Athens. Thucydides himself was a general in the Pelopponesian War. With the Helots the problem is compounded,as you have a people who left no evidence behind within a state which left very little. Rockgenie19
While I do believe the information regarding the rations afforded to helots (I was surprised they received even half-rations) is relevant to the article, doesn't this section seem to be arguing on behalf of Spartan mistreatment of helots. I have been unable to read the sole source cited in this section, but it seems much of this section is made up of original research/opinion, tempered with a particular fact afforded by the source. If you want to think context, consider receiving 81% of necessary daily nutrition coupled with rigorous slave-labor - it's hardly healthy treatment (that's my personal opinion). 1337wesm 01:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the section on context because I found it to be somewhat apologetic for the maltreatment of the helots. I don't think that the fact that helots could theoretically get fat in any way excuses the Spartan habit of putting them to death for becoming so and don't see how it is relevant to the information. Segregold
Are there any studies that relate the Helots to Haplogroup E3b (Y-DNA)? -- Kupirijo 05:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
(I am not knowledgable about this at all so i would be out of place editing this, but somehow this paragraph really niggles me, it gives the impression of a helot population somehow as a concious group deciding to divide naturally like some sort of bacteria. It also gives the impression that chattel populations decided to grow by comerce or war????)
Given that— unlike chattel slave populations— the helot population could not grow by means of purchase or capture in war, it had to rely on natural growth. Helots were encouraged by the Spartans to impose eugenics similar to that which they practiced themselves. Thus, according to the Greek beliefs of the period, not only genetic but also acquired characteristics were passed along to successive generations. During the crypteia, the strongest and fittest helots were the primary targets of the kryptes; to select soft targets would be a sign of weakness.
was acutally me hadnt signed in sorry......JP—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.27.237.153 ( talk)
That paragraph really annoyed me too. Could somebody re-word it? TobiTo Kakshi 19:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Concerning this edit:
According to Thucydides (I, 101, 2), the Helots and the Perioeci of Thouria and Aithaia took advantage of the earthquake to revolt and establish a position on Ithome. He adds that most of the rebels were of Messenian ancestry; confirming the appeal of Ithome as a historical place of Messenian resistance, and focuses attention on the Perioeci of Thouria, a city on the Messianian coast. Conversely, we can deduce that a minority of the Helots were Laconian;
Who is deducing this? Who's we? My sources say that there were two types of Spartan Helots: Laconian and Messinian, each of which resided in the respective regions. It's absurd to assume that there were almost no Laconian Helots because they didn't revolt. They were obviously fewer but that's not how we derive it. The Laconian Helots didn't revolt because they were loyal to the Spartan state, being the ancestors of the Mycenaean pre-Dorian Spartans themselves. In fact there's a huge difference between those two types of Helots (Laconian and Messinian), and it does deserve a mention. Miskin ( talk) 22:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Is this page POV? I was reading about helots in Paola Cavalieri's article, here is what she says:
... Sparta's helots are the best-known example. Both the origins and the details of the status of the helots are somewhat obscure and still under discussion, but helots appear to have been the class of producers on the exploitation of whom the highly hierarchical Spartan society was based. The helots were employed mainly in agriculture, and so normally lived apart from the ruling group and were allowed to have a family and some sort of community life. Their situation, however, wasn't much better than that of chattel slaves. (It is enough to note that their subjection was annually reaffirmed through ritual activities that differed from modern sport hunting mainly in the fact that the prey was human.[5])
Because the helots lived together, they were more dangerous to their masters, and many helot rebellions shook Spartan society. In 369 BC, however, during a war between the Spartans and the Thebans, something exceptional happened: after defeating the Spartans at Leuctra, Epaminondas, leader of the Theban forces, manumitted en bloc the helots of Messenia. This act allowed the rebirth of a whole people, with the ready return of its diaspora from all over the Greek Mediterranean; it also had the effect of transforming the ancient social structure on which Sparta had been based. ...
[5] On this institution, called 'krypteia', see the essay by Pierre Vidal-Naquet, 'Le chasseur noir et 1'origine de 1'ephebie athenienne', in P. Vidal-Naquet, Le chasseur noir: Formes de pens.ee et formes de societe dans le mond grec (Librairie Francois Maspero, Paris, 1981).
This gives me a bit different view than this page. NikNovi ( talk) 17:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I reverted LuxNevada's content deletion. The offending passage is not original research; it draws on Ducat's and Lévy's works. Yet it needs precise references, which is why I added {{ fact}}. The original French article was written in 2005, when footnotes were not used. I am now in holidays and do not have my books with me. I will add references as soon as I am back. Jastrow ( Λέγετε) 12:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
l —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.193.82.205 ( talk) 14:48, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
I undid Kemkem's edition (unfree poulation -> slaved population) for the following reasons. As explained in the rest of the introduction, the precise status of Helots is difficult to evaluate. We definitely know there weren't free, but there is a difference between their status and that of chattel slaves. In some ways, they can be seen as akin to medieval serfs (see Talk:Slavery_in_ancient_Greece#Serfs). Please refer to unfree labour for other kinds of unfree work which aren't slavery: labour camps, bonded labour, etc. The word is routinely used by historians, see for instance Cartledge in Spartan Reflections about Helots. Jastrow ( Λέγετε) 20:05, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
This phrase in the lede does not make a lot of sense in standard English. I suspect it should be "essentially slaves", but I can't find the cited reference. Perhaps an editor who collects books on oratory could check this. Paulmlieberman (talk) 17:14, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
This part of the article may be the worst written Wikipedia text I have ever read. It's not objective and has no regard for grammar at all. It may be a translation problem, but whatever it is, AHHHHHH! Kingsocarso ( talk) 03:34, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
--- Absolutely agree. What part of NPOV did the author not understand when writing: "In fact the Helot rebelled in one of the most famous uprisings in the history of our Earth as they finally decided to react to the mistreatment that they had been given by the Sparta." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.180.102.152 ( talk) 16:16, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
Hi, I'm not a regular Wikipedian so I don't know enough of the system to fix it myself, but I'd like to point out that the current "Treatment by Spartans" section looks like Spartan apologetics. It cites no sources and is unencyclopedic in tone. I know enough to put a "multiple issues" tag on there so hopefully this can get resolved by people that know more. 143.167.213.119 ( talk) 01:45, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
Yeah I was also pretty shocked to see that entire section in there reading like original research and not even bothering to have sources. Needs to be fixed/reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.201.159.21 ( talk) 06:39, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
The "treatment by Spartans" section needs significant improvement. I do not know enough about the realities of Helot life in Spartan society to take issue with any specific claims made this section, but the way it is written looks more like an OP-ED than an encyclopedic work. In particular I refer to the passage beginning "So why the revolts?". JustOneOfThosePeople ( talk) 05:10, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
The article does not summarise the actual history of the system well enough. An actual "history" section with start and end dates for the system with major revolts and events would be better than the current disjointed article. Viciouspiggy ( talk) 08:33, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Is there any particular reason why this important emancipation of Helots isn't mentioned in the article? In fact, the name Epaminondas doesn't even appear in the article. 84.212.10.169 ( talk) 02:13, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article contains a translation of Hilotes from fr.wikipedia. |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 March 2021 and 11 June 2021. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Yautja199. Peer reviewers:
ZuesChill,
FishMan312.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 23:18, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
the phrase in the opening section "Helots were not confined to Sparta" is confusing and ambiguous. Its intended meaning is probably that the practice of keeping Helots existed elsewhere, but it makes sound as though the Helots were a free people. The section makes sense with the deletion of the ambiguous phrase, so that's what I've done. -- Daviticus82 3/16/2007
Shouldn't this article be renamed Helots? The plural in this sort of articles appears to be much more common.-- Aldux 10:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
It's only helot because that was the Status quo - I agree Helots would be better - if there are no counter-argumetns in a few days, will make it so. Bridesmill 13:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
There are many cases in the main body of the article where the past/present tense does not agree (or switches back and forth). If I get around to it, i'll fix it myself, but i've got a lot of work. just thought I'd bring it to someone's attention. -- Storkk 16:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
You uncritically quote Thucydides' exaggerated statement that all Spartan policy was directed by fear of the Helots. Firstly, the translation is contentious. Secondly, though it is a possibility that Sparta was organised in part to keep the Helots in subjection, ask yourself how feared they could have been if the Spartans allowed them to fight alongside them at need. Thirdly, and this is a general point for all writing on Sparta, you need to understand the difficulty of gleaning any information about a state which did not build, did not write, and whose chroniclers mostly came from its great enemy, Athens. Thucydides himself was a general in the Pelopponesian War. With the Helots the problem is compounded,as you have a people who left no evidence behind within a state which left very little. Rockgenie19
While I do believe the information regarding the rations afforded to helots (I was surprised they received even half-rations) is relevant to the article, doesn't this section seem to be arguing on behalf of Spartan mistreatment of helots. I have been unable to read the sole source cited in this section, but it seems much of this section is made up of original research/opinion, tempered with a particular fact afforded by the source. If you want to think context, consider receiving 81% of necessary daily nutrition coupled with rigorous slave-labor - it's hardly healthy treatment (that's my personal opinion). 1337wesm 01:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the section on context because I found it to be somewhat apologetic for the maltreatment of the helots. I don't think that the fact that helots could theoretically get fat in any way excuses the Spartan habit of putting them to death for becoming so and don't see how it is relevant to the information. Segregold
Are there any studies that relate the Helots to Haplogroup E3b (Y-DNA)? -- Kupirijo 05:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
(I am not knowledgable about this at all so i would be out of place editing this, but somehow this paragraph really niggles me, it gives the impression of a helot population somehow as a concious group deciding to divide naturally like some sort of bacteria. It also gives the impression that chattel populations decided to grow by comerce or war????)
Given that— unlike chattel slave populations— the helot population could not grow by means of purchase or capture in war, it had to rely on natural growth. Helots were encouraged by the Spartans to impose eugenics similar to that which they practiced themselves. Thus, according to the Greek beliefs of the period, not only genetic but also acquired characteristics were passed along to successive generations. During the crypteia, the strongest and fittest helots were the primary targets of the kryptes; to select soft targets would be a sign of weakness.
was acutally me hadnt signed in sorry......JP—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.27.237.153 ( talk)
That paragraph really annoyed me too. Could somebody re-word it? TobiTo Kakshi 19:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Concerning this edit:
According to Thucydides (I, 101, 2), the Helots and the Perioeci of Thouria and Aithaia took advantage of the earthquake to revolt and establish a position on Ithome. He adds that most of the rebels were of Messenian ancestry; confirming the appeal of Ithome as a historical place of Messenian resistance, and focuses attention on the Perioeci of Thouria, a city on the Messianian coast. Conversely, we can deduce that a minority of the Helots were Laconian;
Who is deducing this? Who's we? My sources say that there were two types of Spartan Helots: Laconian and Messinian, each of which resided in the respective regions. It's absurd to assume that there were almost no Laconian Helots because they didn't revolt. They were obviously fewer but that's not how we derive it. The Laconian Helots didn't revolt because they were loyal to the Spartan state, being the ancestors of the Mycenaean pre-Dorian Spartans themselves. In fact there's a huge difference between those two types of Helots (Laconian and Messinian), and it does deserve a mention. Miskin ( talk) 22:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Is this page POV? I was reading about helots in Paola Cavalieri's article, here is what she says:
... Sparta's helots are the best-known example. Both the origins and the details of the status of the helots are somewhat obscure and still under discussion, but helots appear to have been the class of producers on the exploitation of whom the highly hierarchical Spartan society was based. The helots were employed mainly in agriculture, and so normally lived apart from the ruling group and were allowed to have a family and some sort of community life. Their situation, however, wasn't much better than that of chattel slaves. (It is enough to note that their subjection was annually reaffirmed through ritual activities that differed from modern sport hunting mainly in the fact that the prey was human.[5])
Because the helots lived together, they were more dangerous to their masters, and many helot rebellions shook Spartan society. In 369 BC, however, during a war between the Spartans and the Thebans, something exceptional happened: after defeating the Spartans at Leuctra, Epaminondas, leader of the Theban forces, manumitted en bloc the helots of Messenia. This act allowed the rebirth of a whole people, with the ready return of its diaspora from all over the Greek Mediterranean; it also had the effect of transforming the ancient social structure on which Sparta had been based. ...
[5] On this institution, called 'krypteia', see the essay by Pierre Vidal-Naquet, 'Le chasseur noir et 1'origine de 1'ephebie athenienne', in P. Vidal-Naquet, Le chasseur noir: Formes de pens.ee et formes de societe dans le mond grec (Librairie Francois Maspero, Paris, 1981).
This gives me a bit different view than this page. NikNovi ( talk) 17:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I reverted LuxNevada's content deletion. The offending passage is not original research; it draws on Ducat's and Lévy's works. Yet it needs precise references, which is why I added {{ fact}}. The original French article was written in 2005, when footnotes were not used. I am now in holidays and do not have my books with me. I will add references as soon as I am back. Jastrow ( Λέγετε) 12:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
l —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.193.82.205 ( talk) 14:48, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
I undid Kemkem's edition (unfree poulation -> slaved population) for the following reasons. As explained in the rest of the introduction, the precise status of Helots is difficult to evaluate. We definitely know there weren't free, but there is a difference between their status and that of chattel slaves. In some ways, they can be seen as akin to medieval serfs (see Talk:Slavery_in_ancient_Greece#Serfs). Please refer to unfree labour for other kinds of unfree work which aren't slavery: labour camps, bonded labour, etc. The word is routinely used by historians, see for instance Cartledge in Spartan Reflections about Helots. Jastrow ( Λέγετε) 20:05, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
This phrase in the lede does not make a lot of sense in standard English. I suspect it should be "essentially slaves", but I can't find the cited reference. Perhaps an editor who collects books on oratory could check this. Paulmlieberman (talk) 17:14, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
This part of the article may be the worst written Wikipedia text I have ever read. It's not objective and has no regard for grammar at all. It may be a translation problem, but whatever it is, AHHHHHH! Kingsocarso ( talk) 03:34, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
--- Absolutely agree. What part of NPOV did the author not understand when writing: "In fact the Helot rebelled in one of the most famous uprisings in the history of our Earth as they finally decided to react to the mistreatment that they had been given by the Sparta." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.180.102.152 ( talk) 16:16, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
Hi, I'm not a regular Wikipedian so I don't know enough of the system to fix it myself, but I'd like to point out that the current "Treatment by Spartans" section looks like Spartan apologetics. It cites no sources and is unencyclopedic in tone. I know enough to put a "multiple issues" tag on there so hopefully this can get resolved by people that know more. 143.167.213.119 ( talk) 01:45, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
Yeah I was also pretty shocked to see that entire section in there reading like original research and not even bothering to have sources. Needs to be fixed/reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.201.159.21 ( talk) 06:39, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
The "treatment by Spartans" section needs significant improvement. I do not know enough about the realities of Helot life in Spartan society to take issue with any specific claims made this section, but the way it is written looks more like an OP-ED than an encyclopedic work. In particular I refer to the passage beginning "So why the revolts?". JustOneOfThosePeople ( talk) 05:10, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
The article does not summarise the actual history of the system well enough. An actual "history" section with start and end dates for the system with major revolts and events would be better than the current disjointed article. Viciouspiggy ( talk) 08:33, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Is there any particular reason why this important emancipation of Helots isn't mentioned in the article? In fact, the name Epaminondas doesn't even appear in the article. 84.212.10.169 ( talk) 02:13, 7 March 2023 (UTC)