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Please add your thoughts to this discussion on whether or not Helena G. Wells should receive a character article. Below is the history of the page dispute:
--- The article associated to this talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Helena_G._Wells&oldid=504236310 was deleted in its entirety by this person: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AussieLegend#Deleted_an_entire_article_that_was_just_published.3F with the comment of:
"Not a main character so shouldn't have a character article."
There was no discussion prior to the deletion. I left a comment on that person's page about the deletion that read:
May I ask why you deleted an entire article regarding Helena G. Wells that was JUST published tonight? I can understand the argument that her not being a regular is why you wouldn't want to have her listed as a main one in the character list page, but to delete the entire article itself without even approaching the author (me) about it before you did so? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Electprogeny (talk • contribs) 08:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
This is the response I received:
To date, character articles have been created only for the main characters in the series. While I understand that you put some work into the article, perhaps you should have asked whether its creation was appropriate at Talk:List of Warehouse 13 characters before putting in the effort. --AussieLegend (talk) 08:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
This was my response:
Hey Aussie, I appreciate your comment on that. This was my first article so I wasn't entirely aware of the etiquette to discuss prior to creation. That said, I would have appreciated the courtesy of discussion before just deleting it. I don't feel that trying to work this out on your talk page is the best way to resolve this. I'm going to see if we can find a better page for this. I'd appreciate your thoughts and will be glad to explain why I think this particular character actually deserves an article (along with the recommendation from another person on a different character page).Electprogeny (talk) 08:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
This article can be reverted to its original state, but I would like to have an open discussion and hear any objections out to see if we can find resolution before any further action is taken. Please leave your comments here.
I believe Helena G. Wells should have a character article despite not being a regular cast member on the show of Warehouse 13. My reasoning for this is that she has had an enormous impact on both the other characters as well as the main show's story-arc since her arrival in the first episode of Season 2. She plays the main antagonist for the entirety of Season 2; is instrumental in both causing a main character's exit from the Warehouse as well as that character's return; and serves in an overwhelming capacity as the savior of three of the main characters with the season 3 finale - and has been reinstated to the show as of the Season 4 premiere. No other recurring character has had so much of an impact on the show. Her importance to the overarching story arcs, to so many of the main characters, and to the development of one of the main characters (Myka Bering) is incontestable. Additionally, conversations with others on the Myka Bering page suggested much information that had been gathering there for that character truly belonged on an article dedicated to Helena G. Wells. I was in complete agreement with that recommendation. If there are no objections I intend to reinstate this article. If there are objections, I would like to discuss them here. Any other opinions relevant to this discussion topic are welcome. Electprogeny ( talk) 09:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
AussieLegend's reasoning isn't sufficient for deleting the article, if the reasoning was really as follows:
To date, character articles have been created only for the main characters in the series.
Nothing on Wikipedia would ever have been written if the general logic here was a Wikipedia guideline (i.e. an article can't exist unless it or something like it has existed before). Furthermore, this goes against the spirit of WP:BB. Anyone deleting any article must cite a reason from WP:DEL-REASON. Since AussieLegend hasn't done so, there's no reason the article should have been deleted. 72.21.131.202 ( talk) 09:42, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
After speaking with members of the live chat help area, it was recommended by Theopolisme to reinstate the page. If there are any others who object to the creation of this article - please refer to the rules for speedy deletion as mentioned in the previous entry on this talk page. If you still believe the article should be deleted in its entirety please follow the proper channels to nominate it for deletion. Electprogeny ( talk) 10:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
This is a very well thought out and comprehensive article. I find the citations throughout to be very helpful. I had been hoping that someone would create a Helena Wells complete article and this definitely is everything I had hoped it would be. This will be very useful when referencing the character in other online discussions. Major kudos to the author on their brilliant work.
Also, the impact that Helena G. Wells had on the characters and on the story arcs should entitle her to a wikipedia entry. She may not have been a "main" character but her influence far exceeds her title of "guest". To not have a Helena G. Wells page would be a major oversight on wikipedia's behalf and would be the equivalent of burning down a library with a friend inside. ( Mynameisme91 ( talk) 10:35, 26 July 2012 (UTC))
As it's watched by more people, I've started a discussion at Talk:Warehouse 13#Helena G. Wells regarding this article, prior to a formal merge proposal or AfD nomination. -- AussieLegend ( talk) 10:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Have a look at articles like Ben Linus for a solid article about a fictional TV character. You can't just have references to episodes and to the SyFy network. You need to find articles, reviews, etc in respectable media (not blogs or forums) that discuss the character, and quote from them. This is what you need to satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirement for articles, otherwise it will eventually be deleted or merged. Barsoomian ( talk) 12:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Please review my comments here. IShadowed ( talk) 22:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
The primary source referenced (which were added for both the purpose of citing the character history - which is acceptable - as well as for simply relaying episode titles) were never the only sources referenced, but I have added twelve secondary sources as of this writing. These are all independent resources and are meant to augment the primary resource references. I will continue to add such secondary references. I will be also updating the primary references where they were made for the purpose of providing the name of the episode with the wikilink to the episode list article as I was not aware of how to do that until just recently. Some primary references may remain as a result, but the majority will be removed. Electprogeny ( talk) 16:22, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Taken from the talk page from Drmargi:
::To answer your question about "WHY is this character so important" - there are a lot of reasons, but primarily it's because I think the influence of H.G. on the show has been monumental. She's not, by any means, a trivial character. She completely changes the way Myka responds to the world around her in severely meaningful ways. Joanne, Jack, Jaime, and Saul have all talked about that. Additionally, her role in shaping the way things played out at the end of the last season is huge, and Syfy IS in the middle of creating an entire series around her (which has been well-documented all over the place and is even brought up on the DVD commentaries). It may be that some feel this character does not deserve to be given an independent article because she's not a principle on Warehouse 13, but she is not "just" a recurring character and is not, by any means, a minor one. Thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate them. Electprogeny ( talk) 16:24, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
I have re-written the article to more closely match the guidelines relating to objective writing vs. in-universe writing. I believe the new wording result sin the article no longer being an in-universe article. If you disagree, please provide an example of what you believe is still in-universe and provide a suggestion for how a rewording would make it not in-universe. That will help me improve the article much faster than not providing any clarification or suggestions. Thanks! Electprogeny ( talk) 02:01, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Taken from the User talk page for Drmargi
Deletion of content does not make the article any more or any less in-universe. It simply reduces content. In-universe is about style, per the guideline, and not about content. To make something less in-universe it must be written less from the fictional character's point of view and must refer to real-world perspective. To quote the manual of style for wikipedia article: An in-universe perspective describes the narrative from the perspective of characters within the fictional universe, treating it as if it were real and ignoring real-world context and sourced analysis. The threshold of what constitutes in-universe writing is making any effort to re-create or uphold the illusion of the original fiction by omitting real-world info.
Deletion of content does not accomplish this task. It merely reduces the content on a page. Electprogeny ( talk) 23:03, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
I have removed all list formats and reworded sections as well as condensed and deleted extraneous data points. I have subsequently removed the List and Trivia tags as I believe this no longer qualifies under the stated objection reasons. Electprogeny ( talk) 02:04, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
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![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
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Please add your thoughts to this discussion on whether or not Helena G. Wells should receive a character article. Below is the history of the page dispute:
--- The article associated to this talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Helena_G._Wells&oldid=504236310 was deleted in its entirety by this person: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AussieLegend#Deleted_an_entire_article_that_was_just_published.3F with the comment of:
"Not a main character so shouldn't have a character article."
There was no discussion prior to the deletion. I left a comment on that person's page about the deletion that read:
May I ask why you deleted an entire article regarding Helena G. Wells that was JUST published tonight? I can understand the argument that her not being a regular is why you wouldn't want to have her listed as a main one in the character list page, but to delete the entire article itself without even approaching the author (me) about it before you did so? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Electprogeny (talk • contribs) 08:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
This is the response I received:
To date, character articles have been created only for the main characters in the series. While I understand that you put some work into the article, perhaps you should have asked whether its creation was appropriate at Talk:List of Warehouse 13 characters before putting in the effort. --AussieLegend (talk) 08:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
This was my response:
Hey Aussie, I appreciate your comment on that. This was my first article so I wasn't entirely aware of the etiquette to discuss prior to creation. That said, I would have appreciated the courtesy of discussion before just deleting it. I don't feel that trying to work this out on your talk page is the best way to resolve this. I'm going to see if we can find a better page for this. I'd appreciate your thoughts and will be glad to explain why I think this particular character actually deserves an article (along with the recommendation from another person on a different character page).Electprogeny (talk) 08:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
This article can be reverted to its original state, but I would like to have an open discussion and hear any objections out to see if we can find resolution before any further action is taken. Please leave your comments here.
I believe Helena G. Wells should have a character article despite not being a regular cast member on the show of Warehouse 13. My reasoning for this is that she has had an enormous impact on both the other characters as well as the main show's story-arc since her arrival in the first episode of Season 2. She plays the main antagonist for the entirety of Season 2; is instrumental in both causing a main character's exit from the Warehouse as well as that character's return; and serves in an overwhelming capacity as the savior of three of the main characters with the season 3 finale - and has been reinstated to the show as of the Season 4 premiere. No other recurring character has had so much of an impact on the show. Her importance to the overarching story arcs, to so many of the main characters, and to the development of one of the main characters (Myka Bering) is incontestable. Additionally, conversations with others on the Myka Bering page suggested much information that had been gathering there for that character truly belonged on an article dedicated to Helena G. Wells. I was in complete agreement with that recommendation. If there are no objections I intend to reinstate this article. If there are objections, I would like to discuss them here. Any other opinions relevant to this discussion topic are welcome. Electprogeny ( talk) 09:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
AussieLegend's reasoning isn't sufficient for deleting the article, if the reasoning was really as follows:
To date, character articles have been created only for the main characters in the series.
Nothing on Wikipedia would ever have been written if the general logic here was a Wikipedia guideline (i.e. an article can't exist unless it or something like it has existed before). Furthermore, this goes against the spirit of WP:BB. Anyone deleting any article must cite a reason from WP:DEL-REASON. Since AussieLegend hasn't done so, there's no reason the article should have been deleted. 72.21.131.202 ( talk) 09:42, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
After speaking with members of the live chat help area, it was recommended by Theopolisme to reinstate the page. If there are any others who object to the creation of this article - please refer to the rules for speedy deletion as mentioned in the previous entry on this talk page. If you still believe the article should be deleted in its entirety please follow the proper channels to nominate it for deletion. Electprogeny ( talk) 10:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
This is a very well thought out and comprehensive article. I find the citations throughout to be very helpful. I had been hoping that someone would create a Helena Wells complete article and this definitely is everything I had hoped it would be. This will be very useful when referencing the character in other online discussions. Major kudos to the author on their brilliant work.
Also, the impact that Helena G. Wells had on the characters and on the story arcs should entitle her to a wikipedia entry. She may not have been a "main" character but her influence far exceeds her title of "guest". To not have a Helena G. Wells page would be a major oversight on wikipedia's behalf and would be the equivalent of burning down a library with a friend inside. ( Mynameisme91 ( talk) 10:35, 26 July 2012 (UTC))
As it's watched by more people, I've started a discussion at Talk:Warehouse 13#Helena G. Wells regarding this article, prior to a formal merge proposal or AfD nomination. -- AussieLegend ( talk) 10:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Have a look at articles like Ben Linus for a solid article about a fictional TV character. You can't just have references to episodes and to the SyFy network. You need to find articles, reviews, etc in respectable media (not blogs or forums) that discuss the character, and quote from them. This is what you need to satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirement for articles, otherwise it will eventually be deleted or merged. Barsoomian ( talk) 12:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Please review my comments here. IShadowed ( talk) 22:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
The primary source referenced (which were added for both the purpose of citing the character history - which is acceptable - as well as for simply relaying episode titles) were never the only sources referenced, but I have added twelve secondary sources as of this writing. These are all independent resources and are meant to augment the primary resource references. I will continue to add such secondary references. I will be also updating the primary references where they were made for the purpose of providing the name of the episode with the wikilink to the episode list article as I was not aware of how to do that until just recently. Some primary references may remain as a result, but the majority will be removed. Electprogeny ( talk) 16:22, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Taken from the talk page from Drmargi:
::To answer your question about "WHY is this character so important" - there are a lot of reasons, but primarily it's because I think the influence of H.G. on the show has been monumental. She's not, by any means, a trivial character. She completely changes the way Myka responds to the world around her in severely meaningful ways. Joanne, Jack, Jaime, and Saul have all talked about that. Additionally, her role in shaping the way things played out at the end of the last season is huge, and Syfy IS in the middle of creating an entire series around her (which has been well-documented all over the place and is even brought up on the DVD commentaries). It may be that some feel this character does not deserve to be given an independent article because she's not a principle on Warehouse 13, but she is not "just" a recurring character and is not, by any means, a minor one. Thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate them. Electprogeny ( talk) 16:24, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
I have re-written the article to more closely match the guidelines relating to objective writing vs. in-universe writing. I believe the new wording result sin the article no longer being an in-universe article. If you disagree, please provide an example of what you believe is still in-universe and provide a suggestion for how a rewording would make it not in-universe. That will help me improve the article much faster than not providing any clarification or suggestions. Thanks! Electprogeny ( talk) 02:01, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Taken from the User talk page for Drmargi
Deletion of content does not make the article any more or any less in-universe. It simply reduces content. In-universe is about style, per the guideline, and not about content. To make something less in-universe it must be written less from the fictional character's point of view and must refer to real-world perspective. To quote the manual of style for wikipedia article: An in-universe perspective describes the narrative from the perspective of characters within the fictional universe, treating it as if it were real and ignoring real-world context and sourced analysis. The threshold of what constitutes in-universe writing is making any effort to re-create or uphold the illusion of the original fiction by omitting real-world info.
Deletion of content does not accomplish this task. It merely reduces the content on a page. Electprogeny ( talk) 23:03, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
I have removed all list formats and reworded sections as well as condensed and deleted extraneous data points. I have subsequently removed the List and Trivia tags as I believe this no longer qualifies under the stated objection reasons. Electprogeny ( talk) 02:04, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Helena G. Wells. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:35, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:15, 10 May 2017 (UTC)