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A news item involving Hedy Epstein was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 31 May 2016. |
This page is a POV travesty. As of this morning the page essentially consisted of a one sentence description of who Hedy is, followed by an attack on her biographical claims, followed by accusations of anti-Semitism, followed by one line telling people where she lives. Everything about this page smacks of an attack page and WP:NPOV, from the topics selected, to the headings used, to the order in which facts are presented. (I don't think I know of a single other biography where a person's controversial facts are presented first, and their biographical facts are relegated to mere footnotes at the bottom). I've done a little cleanup work to try and at least make facts which are in dispute reflect that, but a lot more work needs to be done. Until then, I'm adding the NPOV header and asking other editors (especially those more experienced in this area than I) to help out. -- Bachrach44 ( talk) 20:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed a link already in the lead. Why is Finkelstein there? If it is related, work it into the article or remove it, or spell out the connection. Thank you. -- 70.181.45.138 ( talk) 02:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I am removing some information from this page again.
Please. This is written to make it sound as if she is a fantasist, and the "story" is in doubt. The Irish Times and The Middle East magazine are both reliable sources, and they both report it as fact. If there has been any official denial of the incident issued, I am not aware of it. I understand that editors may personally believe that this incident could not have happened; however, that does not give license to twist around and stitch together the words of reliable sources to make a point the sources themselves don't make. < eleland/ talk edits> 03:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The main source for all this is an article in Israel National News, better known as Arutz Sheva, which is the media arm of the Gush Emunim religious settler movement. It is a questionable source for most purposes and certainly inappropriate for contentious material in biographies of living people. What's more, the author is Lee Kaplan. Kaplan is a former TV actor and fringe Zionist activist from San Fransisco who, according to the SF Weekly is an "ideological soldier for the Israeli side" who "uses tactics that others call extreme, and he calls necessary." He is obsessed with the International Solidarity Movement and notorious for using underhanded tactics to smear them. In a letter, a vice-president of Duke University stated that "I have worked with many journalists over the years, but never have I experienced one whose behavior has been so outside the norms of recognized ethical and journalistic standards as Mr. Kaplan." [1]
In addition, this cites the Nathan Mintz editorial which is already referenced in the "speaking tour controversy" section. However, it omits the fact that the Stanford Daily later apologized for the editorial and acknowledged that it may have misrepresented the content of Epstein's speech, because it was written before the speech which it criticized had actually been given. All accounts of Epstein's speech acknowledge that she began with an explicit statement of avoiding direct comparisons between the Nazi holocaust and the Israeli occupation; most acknowledge that she did, in fact, avoid them. So it's out as a source for this.
Again, this is all covered in the section on her 2004 speaking tour. In addition, neither of the sources actually goes so far as to accuse Epstein of antisemitism. The ADL source says that because she compared Nazis and Israelis in her talk (they don't say how they know she did, nor do they acknowledge that most of those who heard it say she didn't,) this would meet a certain definition of antisemitism which includes "demonization," or hyperbolic criticism, of Israel. Another ADL official, whom I have quoted in the section, says that outright calling her antisemitic would be "a bit harsh." The JCPA source gave a listing of "activities that spill over into various forms of hate-speech" which includes one of her talks, again claiming that she compared Israel to Nazis. There's a difference between participating in "an activity that spills over into various forms of hate speech" and being an antisemite. "Spill over" could mean anything - did one extremist Muslim stand up during the question period and say "Death to Israel?" I don't see how that would make Epstein into an antisemite.
Further, I must point out that under WP:BLP, "Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation is broadly neutral; in particular, subsection headings should reflect important areas to the subject's notability." Neither of the two sources which mention Epstein generally in the context of antisemitism are about Epstein; rather, editors have culled one-line mentions of Epstein out of large reports. There is no evidence that these not-quite-accusations against Epstein amount to anything more than the standard low-level flak associated with anybody who takes an opinion on Israel/Palestine. You can't make bread out of chaff, and you can't make a section in a biography out of various tiny snippets, misread and inflated into a much larger issue than they really are.
I have put several hours of work into this article, and while I'm absolutely open to seeing it further edited and revised, I'm not very happy about seeing sloppy and biased editing of this sort. Please, at least read the sources you are citing and compare them with the text they're cited to support. I don't like to play "revert cop," but come on! < eleland/ talk edits> 03:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
This woman describes herself as a Holocaust Survivor. This is her claim to fame. It should be in the first sentence of the article. Whyzeee ( talk) 02:11, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I have added a source other than the Irish Times, namely The New York Times. The New York Times is certainly a reliable source. Samplingwithreplacement ( talk) 22:56, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Just to add a couple dates to this discussion which might help. The 'official' start of the holocaust, especially in Germany, is often seen as Kristallnacht - November 1938. So if someone escaped Germany in 1939, it was after the Holocaust had begun. Gavroche42 ( talk) 21:41, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Her status as a survivor is only discussed because of her opinions. The "official" start of the Holocaust, as you say, could also be equally and conventionally stablished with the creation of the Nuremberg Laws. But this is not our decission to take, because original research should have no place here. Her participation in the whole flotilla issue has renewed the interest in her, and now we have plenty of international sources considering her a survivor. Leirus ( talk) 08:26, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia has a definition of Holocaust survivor. It reads: "Those listed here were, at the very least, residents of the parts of, Europe occupied by the Axis powers during World War II who survived until the end of the Holocaust (and the war)." Epstein does not meet this definition because she was in England during the war. She is a refugee from nasi Germany. Her self-promotion as a "Holocaust survivor" makes this a controversial point. Elan26 ( talk) 13:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)Elan26
Please excuse my commenting on this -- I was checking recent changes and found myself here. I am just trying to understand (for my wiki-education) the issue(s) involved. Just a few notes: (1) My first (completley uninformed) impression of the phrase "Holocaust survivor" was that it perhaps applied to those who had been released from Nazi death camps by Allied troops. But (2) a bit more thought and reading, and it was clear my first impression was FAR too restrictive. (3) Her family saved her my getting her out. They died. She survived. Yes, I see why some might argue against the use of the phrase "Holocaust survivor -- that was MY FIRST impression: "wrong phrase. 'Refugee' right"... But (4) if my family had put me on the Kindertransport, and they had been killed because they could not escape, too ... well, "survivor" is not a word I would argue with. Again, excuse my commenting on this. Just attempting to understand. ("Refugee" does seem to be the right encyclopedic word. Her own use of the phrase "Holocaust survivor" is perfectly understandable, and to me, now, not "an issue." ) Proofreader77 ( talk) 07:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
That comparision is outrageous. By the very definition gave here, she was a legal resident of Germany at the start of the war. And by your same logic, it seems that she would be accepted without issue as an Holocaust survivor if she did not have controversial opinions about how Israel is acting nowadays. These days, given her involvement with the Gaza strip flotilla she has ben called an Holocaust survivor by plenty of international newspapers, so I think her status should be reflected in her intro. Maybe stating that she survived the Holocaust via the Kindertransport program. Then each one can decide if she is or not a "Holocaust survivor"
Aaargh, I always forget my signature. Leirus ( talk) 12:01, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
212.163.172.180 ( talk) 11:57, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
She was not a resident of Germany at the start of the war, she escaped 9 months prior to the start of the war. She is a holocaust survivor in the same manner that I am a Gulf War survivor (I've never been in the military or to Iraq). I find it in poor taste that she is described as a survivor when she quite clearly was not in death camps or concentration camps- she was in England! She may self publicize as a survivor, but factually that is inaccurate & I believe unsuitable on wikipedia. 86.63.26.124 ( talk) 12:30, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Legal resident. Even if she was not there at the moment. If she was not, it was because her family sent her away before being killed. It is not like she was sipping red wine in soho. It is not like she emigrated three years before. Anyway, this not a matter of opinion, mine or yours. She is being presented as a Holocaust Survivor in the press all over the world right now, so she can be presented arguabily as a survivor. Or at any rate explain with a short sentence her background. The current one is lacking, biased, and really unsuitable on wikipedia. Leirus ( talk) 14:54, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
The phrase Refugee from Nazi Germany is accurate and sufficient. How she is presented in the press doesn't seem like the correct criteria with which to determine whether the additional term is accurate. There is complete agreement on the facts, she was sent from Germany shortly before the war. The only question is the definition of Holocaust survivor, and the press shouldn't be the criteria for such definitions. According to most definitions, she is not a Holocaust survivor. The sentence already describes her as a refugee from Nazi Germany. Adding the phrase Holocaust survivor is at best redundant and at worst misleading to people who accept the more narrow definitions of "Holocaust survivor" than the other phrase already in the same sentence. 195.234.27.10 ( talk) 07:00, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Category:Holocaust survivors states that "A Holocaust survivor is defined as an individual who... meets the definition of Holocaust survivor established by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum"; that definition is "any persons, Jewish or non-Jewish, who were displaced, persecuted, or discriminated against due to the racial, religious, ethnic, social, and political policies of the Nazis and their collaborators between 1933 and 1945. In addition to former inmates of concentration camps, ghettos, and prisons, this definition includes, among others, people who were refugees or were in hiding." So Epstein should definitely be placed in this category under the current definition. All Hallow's Wraith ( talk) 21:08, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
She is not Holocaust survivor, she left Germany in 1939. Otherwise all Jews living in UK would be considered Holocaust survivors. This is non sense. [2]-- Tritomex ( talk) 18:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 15:22, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
The biography section was sourced to other references, but the wording was copied nearly word-for-word from this piece in the NJ Jewish News. Just because each statement was sourced from somewhere else, you can't copy entire paragraphs like that. I've gutted the biography section until someone with time and skill can restore it with new order/wording/presentation. Sorry to destroy and run, I can't rewrite this, and we can't just leave a copyvio unaddressed.
There was an attempt to add this to the "recent deaths" section of WP:ITN; if this is addressed quickly, there still might be time. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 18:07, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hedy Epstein article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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A news item involving Hedy Epstein was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 31 May 2016. |
This page is a POV travesty. As of this morning the page essentially consisted of a one sentence description of who Hedy is, followed by an attack on her biographical claims, followed by accusations of anti-Semitism, followed by one line telling people where she lives. Everything about this page smacks of an attack page and WP:NPOV, from the topics selected, to the headings used, to the order in which facts are presented. (I don't think I know of a single other biography where a person's controversial facts are presented first, and their biographical facts are relegated to mere footnotes at the bottom). I've done a little cleanup work to try and at least make facts which are in dispute reflect that, but a lot more work needs to be done. Until then, I'm adding the NPOV header and asking other editors (especially those more experienced in this area than I) to help out. -- Bachrach44 ( talk) 20:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed a link already in the lead. Why is Finkelstein there? If it is related, work it into the article or remove it, or spell out the connection. Thank you. -- 70.181.45.138 ( talk) 02:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I am removing some information from this page again.
Please. This is written to make it sound as if she is a fantasist, and the "story" is in doubt. The Irish Times and The Middle East magazine are both reliable sources, and they both report it as fact. If there has been any official denial of the incident issued, I am not aware of it. I understand that editors may personally believe that this incident could not have happened; however, that does not give license to twist around and stitch together the words of reliable sources to make a point the sources themselves don't make. < eleland/ talk edits> 03:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The main source for all this is an article in Israel National News, better known as Arutz Sheva, which is the media arm of the Gush Emunim religious settler movement. It is a questionable source for most purposes and certainly inappropriate for contentious material in biographies of living people. What's more, the author is Lee Kaplan. Kaplan is a former TV actor and fringe Zionist activist from San Fransisco who, according to the SF Weekly is an "ideological soldier for the Israeli side" who "uses tactics that others call extreme, and he calls necessary." He is obsessed with the International Solidarity Movement and notorious for using underhanded tactics to smear them. In a letter, a vice-president of Duke University stated that "I have worked with many journalists over the years, but never have I experienced one whose behavior has been so outside the norms of recognized ethical and journalistic standards as Mr. Kaplan." [1]
In addition, this cites the Nathan Mintz editorial which is already referenced in the "speaking tour controversy" section. However, it omits the fact that the Stanford Daily later apologized for the editorial and acknowledged that it may have misrepresented the content of Epstein's speech, because it was written before the speech which it criticized had actually been given. All accounts of Epstein's speech acknowledge that she began with an explicit statement of avoiding direct comparisons between the Nazi holocaust and the Israeli occupation; most acknowledge that she did, in fact, avoid them. So it's out as a source for this.
Again, this is all covered in the section on her 2004 speaking tour. In addition, neither of the sources actually goes so far as to accuse Epstein of antisemitism. The ADL source says that because she compared Nazis and Israelis in her talk (they don't say how they know she did, nor do they acknowledge that most of those who heard it say she didn't,) this would meet a certain definition of antisemitism which includes "demonization," or hyperbolic criticism, of Israel. Another ADL official, whom I have quoted in the section, says that outright calling her antisemitic would be "a bit harsh." The JCPA source gave a listing of "activities that spill over into various forms of hate-speech" which includes one of her talks, again claiming that she compared Israel to Nazis. There's a difference between participating in "an activity that spills over into various forms of hate speech" and being an antisemite. "Spill over" could mean anything - did one extremist Muslim stand up during the question period and say "Death to Israel?" I don't see how that would make Epstein into an antisemite.
Further, I must point out that under WP:BLP, "Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation is broadly neutral; in particular, subsection headings should reflect important areas to the subject's notability." Neither of the two sources which mention Epstein generally in the context of antisemitism are about Epstein; rather, editors have culled one-line mentions of Epstein out of large reports. There is no evidence that these not-quite-accusations against Epstein amount to anything more than the standard low-level flak associated with anybody who takes an opinion on Israel/Palestine. You can't make bread out of chaff, and you can't make a section in a biography out of various tiny snippets, misread and inflated into a much larger issue than they really are.
I have put several hours of work into this article, and while I'm absolutely open to seeing it further edited and revised, I'm not very happy about seeing sloppy and biased editing of this sort. Please, at least read the sources you are citing and compare them with the text they're cited to support. I don't like to play "revert cop," but come on! < eleland/ talk edits> 03:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
This woman describes herself as a Holocaust Survivor. This is her claim to fame. It should be in the first sentence of the article. Whyzeee ( talk) 02:11, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I have added a source other than the Irish Times, namely The New York Times. The New York Times is certainly a reliable source. Samplingwithreplacement ( talk) 22:56, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Just to add a couple dates to this discussion which might help. The 'official' start of the holocaust, especially in Germany, is often seen as Kristallnacht - November 1938. So if someone escaped Germany in 1939, it was after the Holocaust had begun. Gavroche42 ( talk) 21:41, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Her status as a survivor is only discussed because of her opinions. The "official" start of the Holocaust, as you say, could also be equally and conventionally stablished with the creation of the Nuremberg Laws. But this is not our decission to take, because original research should have no place here. Her participation in the whole flotilla issue has renewed the interest in her, and now we have plenty of international sources considering her a survivor. Leirus ( talk) 08:26, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia has a definition of Holocaust survivor. It reads: "Those listed here were, at the very least, residents of the parts of, Europe occupied by the Axis powers during World War II who survived until the end of the Holocaust (and the war)." Epstein does not meet this definition because she was in England during the war. She is a refugee from nasi Germany. Her self-promotion as a "Holocaust survivor" makes this a controversial point. Elan26 ( talk) 13:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)Elan26
Please excuse my commenting on this -- I was checking recent changes and found myself here. I am just trying to understand (for my wiki-education) the issue(s) involved. Just a few notes: (1) My first (completley uninformed) impression of the phrase "Holocaust survivor" was that it perhaps applied to those who had been released from Nazi death camps by Allied troops. But (2) a bit more thought and reading, and it was clear my first impression was FAR too restrictive. (3) Her family saved her my getting her out. They died. She survived. Yes, I see why some might argue against the use of the phrase "Holocaust survivor -- that was MY FIRST impression: "wrong phrase. 'Refugee' right"... But (4) if my family had put me on the Kindertransport, and they had been killed because they could not escape, too ... well, "survivor" is not a word I would argue with. Again, excuse my commenting on this. Just attempting to understand. ("Refugee" does seem to be the right encyclopedic word. Her own use of the phrase "Holocaust survivor" is perfectly understandable, and to me, now, not "an issue." ) Proofreader77 ( talk) 07:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
That comparision is outrageous. By the very definition gave here, she was a legal resident of Germany at the start of the war. And by your same logic, it seems that she would be accepted without issue as an Holocaust survivor if she did not have controversial opinions about how Israel is acting nowadays. These days, given her involvement with the Gaza strip flotilla she has ben called an Holocaust survivor by plenty of international newspapers, so I think her status should be reflected in her intro. Maybe stating that she survived the Holocaust via the Kindertransport program. Then each one can decide if she is or not a "Holocaust survivor"
Aaargh, I always forget my signature. Leirus ( talk) 12:01, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
212.163.172.180 ( talk) 11:57, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
She was not a resident of Germany at the start of the war, she escaped 9 months prior to the start of the war. She is a holocaust survivor in the same manner that I am a Gulf War survivor (I've never been in the military or to Iraq). I find it in poor taste that she is described as a survivor when she quite clearly was not in death camps or concentration camps- she was in England! She may self publicize as a survivor, but factually that is inaccurate & I believe unsuitable on wikipedia. 86.63.26.124 ( talk) 12:30, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Legal resident. Even if she was not there at the moment. If she was not, it was because her family sent her away before being killed. It is not like she was sipping red wine in soho. It is not like she emigrated three years before. Anyway, this not a matter of opinion, mine or yours. She is being presented as a Holocaust Survivor in the press all over the world right now, so she can be presented arguabily as a survivor. Or at any rate explain with a short sentence her background. The current one is lacking, biased, and really unsuitable on wikipedia. Leirus ( talk) 14:54, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
The phrase Refugee from Nazi Germany is accurate and sufficient. How she is presented in the press doesn't seem like the correct criteria with which to determine whether the additional term is accurate. There is complete agreement on the facts, she was sent from Germany shortly before the war. The only question is the definition of Holocaust survivor, and the press shouldn't be the criteria for such definitions. According to most definitions, she is not a Holocaust survivor. The sentence already describes her as a refugee from Nazi Germany. Adding the phrase Holocaust survivor is at best redundant and at worst misleading to people who accept the more narrow definitions of "Holocaust survivor" than the other phrase already in the same sentence. 195.234.27.10 ( talk) 07:00, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Category:Holocaust survivors states that "A Holocaust survivor is defined as an individual who... meets the definition of Holocaust survivor established by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum"; that definition is "any persons, Jewish or non-Jewish, who were displaced, persecuted, or discriminated against due to the racial, religious, ethnic, social, and political policies of the Nazis and their collaborators between 1933 and 1945. In addition to former inmates of concentration camps, ghettos, and prisons, this definition includes, among others, people who were refugees or were in hiding." So Epstein should definitely be placed in this category under the current definition. All Hallow's Wraith ( talk) 21:08, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
She is not Holocaust survivor, she left Germany in 1939. Otherwise all Jews living in UK would be considered Holocaust survivors. This is non sense. [2]-- Tritomex ( talk) 18:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 15:22, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
The biography section was sourced to other references, but the wording was copied nearly word-for-word from this piece in the NJ Jewish News. Just because each statement was sourced from somewhere else, you can't copy entire paragraphs like that. I've gutted the biography section until someone with time and skill can restore it with new order/wording/presentation. Sorry to destroy and run, I can't rewrite this, and we can't just leave a copyvio unaddressed.
There was an attempt to add this to the "recent deaths" section of WP:ITN; if this is addressed quickly, there still might be time. -- Floquenbeam ( talk) 18:07, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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