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There are lots of sources that refer to the Hebrew Gospel (see Google Link) but there is no source that refers to Hebrew Gospel hypothesis (see Google Link) Is this a spoof? - Ret.Prof ( talk) 04:11, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
Ret Prof, as you are the main recent advocate of the hypothesis of a Hebrew Gospel on Wikipedia, are you saying that the hypothesis doesn't exist but is it a fact? The following show that it is generally considered a hypothesis:
In ictu oculi ( talk) 22:56, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
"It originates with the early Christian writer Papias, and was then repeated by later Church Fathers including Jerome. It survives into the modern period, but studies have shown it to be untenable."
Wow - a good example of a biased & misleading statement. I understand that these articles pertaining to religion tend to bring out the worst in uncompromising mentalities, but come on. Yes, the earliest surviving evidence that the earliest gospel was a Hebrew version of Matthew comes from Papias (& perhaps Ignatius). But to imply that that position is only a theory that "originated" with Papias is misleading. And to state that that was then "repeated" Jerome (implying that Jerome merely repeated what Papias had claimed) is simply not true. As you yourself (sort of) acknowledge, Jerome claimed to have known of at least a couple of copies in existence at the time, and he even claimed to have personally translated a copy.
But you then repeat the view (assumption) of Koster (& Cameron) that Jerome couldn't possibly have translated anything from that gospel - he must have just copied some earlier quotes by Origen. But did Jerome copy from Origen? Is there any evidence to that effect? Wouldn't both of those writers have independently come up with the same translations if Jerome's claims were true? And even if Jerome copied from Origen, where did Origen come up with those quotes?
In truth, to deny the existence of an original Hebrew version of Matthew requires that we ignore a lot of historical evidence; and also that we ignore what practically every passage that the synoptics have in common actually say. Alan B25 ( talk) 04:16, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
I now see that this is a serious attempt to solve the issue before us.
Issue
- The Historical writings from the time of Jesus to the time of Jerome c.385 C.E., state Matthew wrote an eyewitness account of the life of Jesus called the Hebrew Gospel or sometimes the Gospel of the Hebrews. No ancient source either Christian or non-Christian disputes this. There are many scholars such a Lillie, Nicholson, Parker, Cassels, Edwards, Tabor, Schoemaker and Butz, who agree with the historical sources and explain why. Then there those who disagree such as Vielhauer and Schneemelcher.
Your solution is to divide the article into two. This article would reflect the position of the Historical writings from the time of Jesus to the time of Jerome c.385 C.E., which state Matthew wrote an eyewitness account of the life of Jesus called the Hebrew Gospel or sometimes the Gospel of the Hebrews. Scholars such a Lillie, Nicholson, Parker, Cassels, Edwards, Tabor, Schoemaker and Butz who support this position would also be included in this article .
The other article, the Gospel of the Hebrews would reflect the point of view of those who disagree such as such as Vielhauer and Schneemelcher.
I have carefully read WP:POVFORK and believe this solution goes against WP Policy. We as editors must work together to blend all the sources into a NPOV article. (See Reflections of an Old Geezer at User talk:Ret.Prof and Talk:Gospel of Matthew) Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 13:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Ret Prof. Well now you're really edit warring with all guns blazing. You've now deleted an article on the hypotheses of Nicholson/Parker/Edwards simply because it includes a detached view and restored old attempts to have the same hypothesis given a page Talk:Authentic Matthew and Talk:Authentic Gospel of Matthew.
Why not Authentic Gospel of Matthew hypothesis per Two-gospel hypothesis Two-source hypothesis? Because the phrase "Authentic Gospel of Matthew" is more loaded than "Hebrew Gospel". My personal opinion is that this is a fringe view which is borderline as to whether it deserves its own page. But that what I can only describe as enthusiasts for the view (of which you are only the latest) will populate main articles with the subject unless it has its own nest.
Note that this is the second unilateral page delete:
In ictu oculi ( talk) 22:47, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
I was going to nominate for deletion, but you are doing a good job. I am actually enjoying it. I still think it is a POV fork, but I will take no action. Good work - Ret.Prof ( talk) 00:28, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
I found your comments confusing and a little off topic. I made a serious effort to answers your questions:
Now back to topic. I think you are doing a good job. I am enjoying what you write. Cheers Ret.Prof ( talk) 15:19, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, In ictu oculi, for creating and developing this article. One question jumps out: what is the degree of overlap with the canonical GoM? The article talks about this reconstucted gospel without ever saying what its contents are. It would be helpful if the differences between, and similarities with, the other gospels was explicated. (The Gospel of Matthew article, for example, sets out the structure of the Gospel.) (I see that this is set out more at Hebrew Gospel, in which case the above point is redundant, but the following is still relevant.) Perhaps the sentence that ends
should be changed to
? -- cheers, Michael C. Price talk 08:30, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
That's fine. I have now (belatedly) added "or Aramaic" to Gospel of Matthew but you are right Hebrew Gospel hypothesis may well be a better REDIRECT. The making of the New Testament documents Edward Earle Ellis - 2002 speaks of "the Aramaic Matthew Hypothesis" and it looks like the Independence of Matthew and Mark John M. Rist and Aramaic sources of Mark's Gospel Maurice Casey - 1998 may have useful source material. And yes, you're correct it isn't a povfork, just a content fork not to overload the main Matthew article with a subset of Aramaic/Hebrew related hypotheses. Cheers. (btw please consider the benefits of registering, cheers!): In ictu oculi ( talk) 05:05, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
It has been suggested on this talk page that portions of the Hebrew (Aramaic) Gospel article that will improve the Gospel of the Hebrews article be moved there, and that other parts of the Hebrew (Aramaic) Gospel be merged into this Hebrew Gospel hypothesis article. Please discuss the merge into this article below. – Paine ( Climax!) 06:57, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
PiCo and I both concur that the content merge to the GH article is complete. Essentially, none of the content from the Hebrew (Aramaic) Gospel article was useful there. I copied a small section about Jerome to the talk page of the GN article. Nothing else was useful there, so we can spare the effort of yet another merge proposal to that article. Ignocrates ( talk) 20:10, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
In addition to searching for content that might be useful in the GH and GN articles, I went through the Hebrew (Aramaic) Gospel article section by section and made a reasonable effort to eliminate OR/POV/Duplication and content supported only by marginal sources. All of that process is described on the H(A)G talk page. The remaining material should be considered a stub at this point. The next step is to go through the stub and evaluate the remaining material for merging into this article. Someone else needs to step up and do that. I have had all the fun I can stand. Ignocrates ( talk) 21:11, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
This is my understanding, formed from a few days of research for the articles Gospel of the Hebrews and Jewish-Christian gospels. But first, an excellent guide is chapter 7 of Ehrman and Plese's recent (2011) book, The Apocryphal Gospels:Texts and Translations It's written in very readable English, but is by recognised scholars. And of course, it's recent, therefore up to date regarding scholarly arguments.
Also, don't forget about the wip page. There appear to be some good recent sources there, including Hans-Josef Klauck Apocryphal gospels: an introduction (2003) and Foster, Paul The non-canonical gospels (2008). Ignocrates ( talk) 05:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Schmidt, Peter Lebrecht (1998). "Und es war geschrieben auf Hebraisch, Griechisch und Lateinisch: Hieronymous, das Hebraer-Evangelium und seine mittelalterliche Rezeption". Filologia Mediolatina. 5: 49–93. Schmidt argues that there was one Jewish-Christian gospel, probably composed in Aramaic c. 100 AD. This journal article is frequently cited in reviews. Ignocrates ( talk) 16:40, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
We should mention the possibly legendary account, described by Ehrman (2011) p.38, of Eusebius in Historica Ecclestastica 5.10.3 reporting that Clement's teacher Pantaenus found a Hebrew version of Matthew's Gospel in India, which, according to tradition, had been brought there by the apostle Bartholomew. I don't see it mentioned here or in any other article on the gospels. It is mentioned in the article on Pantaenus, but that article is an OR/POV crap-fest. Ignocrates ( talk) 19:24, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
It appears that we have made reasonable efforts to incorporate any material from the Hebrew Gospel (Aramaic) article that might be useful into the Hebrew Gospel hypothesis article. In addition, I pasted a few things to the Talk:Gospel of the Nazoraeans and Talk:Q pages. What is the community's opinion about the ultimate fate of the Hebrew Gospel (Aramaic) article? Is there is room for a stub on a Hebrew (Aramaic) Matthew or should the whole thing be TNT'd by an AfD? I won't support a deletion by redirect for ethical reasons. Opinions please. Ignocrates ( talk) 17:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I changed the redirects so that Authentic Matthew and Authentic Gospel of Matthew redirect here instead of Jewish-Christian Gospels. Aramaic Matthew already redirected to this article. All of these articles are attempts to describe a hypothetical original Gospel of Matthew. Now all the redirects are logically consistent. Ignocrates ( talk) 22:06, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
I blanked the Hebrew Gospel (Aramaic) article and redirected it to this article. Now it is pointing to the same place as all the other so-called Authentic Matthew articles. Since we already established a consensus to merge (see discussion above), I didn't see any reason to drag this out. Ignocrates ( talk) 16:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
I found the following content by Shlomo Pines, including a complete translation, in Pines, Shlomo (1966). The Jewish Christians Of The Early Centuries Of Christianity According To A New Source (PDF). Proceedings of the Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities II, No. 13. ASIN B0006EAVD6. from an Arabic text entitled Tathbit Dala'il Nubuwwat Sayyidina Mahammad by Abd al-Jabbar ibn Ahmad:
(Shlomo Pines) "The historical texts may be divided into the following sections:
1. A text containing (a) a relation of the fortunes of the first Christian Community of Jerusalem from the death of Jesus till the flight of its members with a short reference to their tribulations in exile and (b) an account of the origin of the four canonical Gospels and of the successful efforts made to put an end to the use of the original Hebrew Gospels.
2. A short passage stating the reasons for the decadence of Christianity and giving a version of the first Christian attempts at converting the Gentiles in Antioch, which is probably based on the account figuring in the Acts of the Apostles.
3. A hostile biography of Saint Paul, partly also based on the Acts.
4. The second part of section 3 is joined or jumbled in a curious way with the beginning of section 4, which gives an account of Helena, the mother of the Emperor Constantine, of this emperor himself and of the Council of Nicaea and also refers to Constantine's successors. This section also contains a passage on Mani.
[deleting translation as the Pines quote itself pushes the limit of copyvio - if it can be shown that the translation is clearly copyright free it can be reinstated. Dougweller ( talk) 21:26, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Pines claims elsewhere in the article that the original language of composition was probably Syriac, and that Abd al-Jabbar translated the material into Arabic and adapted it for his own purposes. This material certainly seems applicable to an article on a hypothetical or lost Aramaic/Hebrew gospel. Ignocrates ( talk) 18:53, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
I know I said I was done with this article (and I am), but here are two links that might be of interest: link1 and link2. Ok, now I'm done. Ignocrates ( talk) 23:47, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
"Studies have shown this to be untenable" - Does Koster's opinion trump all the others or should someone add "Some" studies? I smell POV here. If you're going to just copy Koster's work, why not actually quote what it says which is "Several critical studies". Maybe even mention if those "critical studies" are from a particular POV or from all over the spectrum.- Sman Februrary 10 2013
"There is no doubt among modern scholars that this gospel, like the rest of the New Testament, was composed in koine Greek, the daily language of the time.[3] The anonymous author drew on three main sources, the Gospel of Mark, the sayings collection known as the Q source, both in Greek, and material unique to his own community, called M.[4] Mark and Q were both written sources composed in Greek..."
To describe (what may be) the currently popular or consensus view is of value, but it is misleading to make statements such as "There is no doubt among modern scholars..." In fact, there most certainly IS some doubt among some modern scholars regarding nearly every "matter-of-fact" statement that you make. For example, the prevalence of Aramaic vs. Hebrew (or Greek) is a matter of debate, with some recent scholarship (since the discovery that the majority of the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew) adding more weight to the use of Hebrew, at least in use for written (esp. religious) matters. There is even some debate as to whether Aramaic or Hebrew was the primary spoken language of Jesus and his Jewish followers.
And some of what you state is, as far as I have read, not accepted by anyone. For example, what evidence is there to support your claim that the 'Q' gospel was composed in Greek, or that it was a written source, or that it existed at all? Even the strongest supporters of the Mark & Q hypothesis will admit that 'Q' is a purely hypothetical construct that was invented in response to an otherwise fatal flaw in the theory of Markan priority. In other words, if one does not (mistakenly) insist on Markan priority, there is simply no need to invent a non-canonical Hebrew 'Q' source to account for any of the material in Matthew. In truth (& despite the currently popular view), it is evident in nearly passage that they have in common that Matthew's version served as the source for Mark's version.
Finally, I wonder why this article exists at all. Given that what modern scholars like to refer to as "the Hebrew Gospel" or "the Gospel of the Hebrews" was understood by the ancient sources to mean "the Gospel according to Matthew, as it was originally written in Hebrew", shouldn't this entire article be incorporated into the article for the Gospel of Matthew? Alan B25 ( talk) 03:36, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
I added this link because these two articles are sequentially related and we must take care to avoid duplication. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 14:11, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Good work. This article is now starting to take shape. You have done an excellent job of editing Mainline consensus to the year 2000. All we need to do now is add the most recent scholarship. Recently scholars such as Ehrman (2012) pp 98-101, Casey (2010) p 86-89 and Edwards (2009) pp 2-10 have taken the position that that Matthew collected the Sayings of Jesus and reduced them to writing. All three further state that this Hebrew Gospel is NOT the same as the Gospel of Matthew we have in our Canon.
Bart Ehrman is one of the most formidable Biblical historians of our time. He is the holder of a Distinguished Professorship. Not only is he required reading at most seminaries, but he has managed to hit New York Times best sellers list. In his most recent work Did Jesus Exist?, HarperCollins, 2012. pp 98-101 Bart D. Ehrman explains why Papias, who was born in 63 CE and was a Bishop in the Early Church is so very important. Although Ehrman takes the position that Matthew reduced the Oral Tradition to a Hebrew dialect (probably Aramaic) he does not believe that Matthew's Hebrew Gospel is the same as the Gospel of Matthew in our Bible. Because there is "a collection of Jesus's sayings made by Matthew, there is no reason to think that he is referring to" what we call Matthew". Ehrman adds, in fact, what Papias "says about these books does not coincide with what we ourselves know about the canonical Gospels." The Hebrew Gospel written by Matthew is distinct from the Gospel of Matthew that eventually came to be included in Scripture. p 101 Papias then, is "testimony that is independent of the Gospels themselves. It is yet one more independent line of testimony among the many we have seen so far. And this time it is a testimony that explicitly and credibly traces its own lineage directly back to the disciples of Jesus themselves." P 101
Maurice Casey is one of Britain's most noted historians. He is Emeritus Professor at the University of Nottingham, having served there as Professor of New Testament Languages and Literature at the Department of Theology. His most recent work Jesus of Nazareth: An Independent Historian's Account of His Life and Teaching, Continuum International Publishing Group, 2010. p 86-89 supports the aforementioned scholarship. Casey believes that Matthew collected the oral traditions of Jesus and reduced them to writing. "Papias attributed the collection of some Gospel traditions to the apostle Matthew, one of the Twelve, who wrote them down... There is every reason to believe this. It explains the high proportion of literally accurate traditions, mostly of sayings of Jesus, in the 'Q' material and in material unique to the Gospel of Matthew. p 86 Therefore "it is genuinely true that the apostle Matthew 'compiled the sayings/oracles in a Hebrew language." 88 Finally, he agrees with Ehrman that Matthew's Hebrew Gospel has no connection with our Gospel of Matthew. "This tradition is complete nonsense, as most scholars have recognized." p 87
Unlike Casey and Ehrman, James Edwards is a Christian scholar. He is a Bruner-Welch Professor of Theology, an Ordained Presbyterian minister, a contributing editor of Christianity Today, and member of the Center of Theological Inquiry, Princeton. In his most recent work the The Hebrew Gospel and the development of the Synoptic Tradition, Eerdmans Publishing, 2009. p 2 he confirms that the Oral Gospel traditions were collected by Matthew and that Matthew wrote them down in the Hebrew Gospel. p3
Then Edwards evaluates the testimony of Papias using the criteria of Casey and Ehrman. Papias is supported by 75 ancient witnesses who testified to the fact that there was a Hebrew Gospel in circulation. Google Link Twelve of the Church Fathers testified that it was written by the Apostle Matthew. Google Link No ancient writer, either Christian or Non Christian, challenged these two facts. Google Link
There is no rush to update this article as we have our hands full with the Oral gospel traditions but as always your help is appreciated! - Ret.Prof ( talk) 14:11, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Have a strong sense of deja vu here, has this already appeared/been deleted in other articles? Tends to WP:OR against WP:WEIGHT. In ictu oculi ( talk) 23:33, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
In ictu oculi, please stop mass deleting information on this page without a reasonable basis. I will reverting the page to undo the mass deletion that has no basis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deadtotruth ( talk • contribs) 00:00, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
By the way, the recent addition of material uses a source called "Koester 1990". What book is this? The only book I see in the Ref section from Koester is from 2000.-- FutureTrillionaire ( talk) 02:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
One passage that it is argued contains a logical improbability in Greek is Matthew 4:8. There isn't a mountain high enough to view "all of the kingdoms of the earth" since the earth is round. The Hebrew word found in Ibn Shaprut's medieval translation of the Greek Gospel of Matthew in the appendix to The Touchstone (c.1380) uses "eretz" [1] which can be translated as earth or land. [2] By substituting the Hebrew word "eretz" into the passage makes it possible that "all the kingdoms of the land of Israel" were viewed from a high mountain such as Mount Tabor in Israel.
Another proposed example concerns Matthew 24:51 and Luke 12:46. Agnes Smith Lewis (1910) noted that the verb used in all of the Syriac versions "palleg" has the primary meaning of "cut in pieces" and the secondary one of "appoint to some one his portion." The primary sense leads to the possible problem of how someone cut to pieces could then be assigned to something else. But, Smith argues, if we take the secondary meaning then we are may suggest that the Greek translator misunderstood a Syriac idiom by taking it too literally. The translation would be "and shall allot his portion and shall place him with the unfaithful" instead of the Greek "shall cut him in pieces and shall place him with the unfaithful." [3] Hugh J. Schonfield (1927) notes that the Hebrew verb "bahkag" means literally to "break forth, cleave asunder" and concludes that the Greek translator has failed to grasp the sense in which the Hebrew word is here used. [4]
Another proposed example involves the genealogy in Matthew. Schonfield (1927) argues that the text of Matthew indicates three genealogical groups of 14 each. However, the Greek texts of Matthew have two groups of 14 and a final group of 13. The Syriac Curetonian and Syriac Sinaiticus add the following to Matthew 1:13, "Abiud begat Abiur, Abiur begat Eliakim. Dutillet's Hebrew version of Matthew adds Abihud begat Abner; Abner begat Eliakim. [5] In both Syriac and Hebrew the spellings between Abiud and Abiur are so close that during translation into Greek the second name could have been dropped mistakenly. In any case, all Greek texts contain only 13 names while possibly indicating 14 should be in the final portion of the list. The two Syriac texts and one Hebrew text have 14 names and indicate 14 should be in the final portion of the list.
Portions of the oral sayings in Matthew contain vocabulary that may indicate Hebrew or Aramaic linguistic techniques involving puns, alliterations, and word connections. Hebrew/Aramaic vocabulary choices possibly underlie the text in Matthew 1:21, 3:9, 4:12, 4:21-23, 5:9-10, 5:23, 5:47-48, 7:6, 8:28-31, 9:8, 10:35-39, 11:6, 11:8-10, 11:17, 11:29, 12:13-15, 12:39, 14:32, 14:35-36, 15:34-37, 16:18, 17:05, 18:9, 18:16, 18:23-35, 19:9-13, 19:24, 21:19, 21:37-46, 21:42, 23:25-29, 24:32, 26:28-36, 26:52. [6] [7] [8]
Scholars have put forward several theories to explain Papias: perhaps Matthew wrote two gospels, one, now lost, in Hebrew, the other our Greek version; or perhaps the logia was a collection of sayings rather than the gospel; or by dialektōi Papias may have meant that Matthew wrote in the Jewish style rather than in the Hebrew language. [9] Nevertheless, on the basis of this and other information Jerome (c. 327–420) claimed that all the Jewish Christian communities shared a single gospel, identical with the Hebrew or Aramaic Matthew; he also claimed to have personally found this gospel in use among some communities in Syria. [10]
Jerome's testimony is regarded with skepticism by modern scholars. Jerome claims to have seen a gospel in Aramaic that contained all the quotations he assigns to it, but it can be demonstrated that some of them could never have existed in a Semitic language. His claim to have produced all the translations himself is also suspect, as many are found in earlier scholars such as Origen and Eusebius. Jerome appears to have assigned these quotations to the Gospel of the Hebrews, but it appears more likely that there were at least two and probably three ancient Jewish-Christian gospels, only one of them in a Semitic language. [11] These would be in addition to the Syriac Curetonian and Sinaiticus manuscripts found at Mount Sinai and believed to have originated between the 2nd and 4th centuries.
This is the large chunk of mainly WP:OR which the User has been repeatedly planting on en.wp. This is what needs full axing In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:39, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Here is the complete reference. What's on your mind, specifically? Please produce page numbers and quotations to back up your seemingly nebulous claims. Ignocrates ( talk) 04:24, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
I have requested an opinion as to the notability of George Howard (Hebraist) as a scholar in the field of Hebrew Gospel studies at WP:Notability/Noticeboard#George Howard (Hebraist). Ignocrates ( talk) 13:32, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
I’m assuming this is a different document to the
Gospel of the Hebrews, is that correct? If so, this article, (and that one) would benefit from an {{other tag, and an explanatory sentence in the introduction, as it is confusing as it stands. Currently, the only clue to the difference is in the Theory section, which is a third of the way down the page.
I've also noticed there is a looong discussion on the
Hebrew Gospel page (currently a redirect); I've made a proposal
there that might help.
Moonraker12 (
talk)
10:11, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
The Hebrew Gospel debate is one of the most controversial of our time! Scholars are divided! Some believe that Matthew wrote an early Gospel in a Hebrew dialect that was the fountainhead for later gospels. Others believe this to be fringe scholarship that is untenable. The basis for the debate comes from Papias of Hierapolis in Asia Minor (modern Turkey b. 63 A.D). Blackwell (2010) p 301
Papias (b. 63 A.D.) Matthew wrote down the sayings of Jesus (logia) in a Hebrew dialect (en Hebraidi dialecto), and everyone translated (hermeneusen) them to the best of their ability. [12] [13] [14] [15] [16]
Those who oppose Papias argue the existence of a Hebrew or Aramaic Matthew is on the "fringes of scholarship today." Perkins (2007) p 197 and that "critical studies" have shown that testmony of Papias "is untenable." Köster (2000) p 207
By the mid 20 C many scholars took the position that the Hebrew Gospel never existed. There were two reasons for this.
First, it has been shown that Canonical Gospel of Matthew is not a translation of Matthew's Hebrew Gospel. This makes it untenable that the Hebrew Gospel ever existed, for if it was never translated into Koine Greek, this is proof that it never existed. Walter Bauer (1934) goes on to explain Papias' should be understood as an attempt to defend the canonical Greek Gospel of Matthew from being used improperly, since he considered heretics in Asia Minor were misusing it.
Second Joseph Kurzinger argued that "Hebraidi dialecto" should not be translated as "Hebrew dialect" but rather as "Koine Greek".
He studied the Papias quote: "Matthew collected the oral teachings of Jesus (logia) in a Hebrew dialect (Hebraidi dialecto), and everyone translated (hermeneusen) them to the best of their ability." On the surface it implies that Matthew's Gospel was written in Hebrew. However, upon closer study by Hebraidi dialecto, Papias meant that Matthew wrote in the "Semitic rhetorical style" rather than in the Hebrew language. Therefore if the comment refers to "style" not "language" the gospel could have been written in Greek. Thus Hebraidi dialecto does not mean "a Hebrew dialect" but rather "Koine Greek" proving there never was a Hebrew Gospel.
At the turn of the Century, scholars started to take a second look at Papias and many historians are now taking the position that his testimony preserved by Eusebius may "be fairly trustworthy." Blackwell (2010) p 301
Indeed, there has been some serious pushback to "Critical studies showing Papias is untenable." Scholars agree that the Gospel of Matthew was not a translation of the Hebrew Gospel. However, they argue that the Papias note never stated that the Hebrew Gospel was translated into the canonical Gospel of Matthew. Indeed, to say that 'Hebrew Matthew' could not exist because it was never translated into 'canonical Matthew' is a "spurious intellectual argument". The "translation issue" does not call into question the existence of the Hebrew gospel. The Dead Sea Scrolls have shown that Hebrew and Aramaic texts did exist without ever having been translated into Koine Greek. Furthermore, the Dead sea Scrolls show Hebraidi dialecto, can refer to 'vocabulary', or 'vocabulary and style' but never should be translated as 'Koine Greek'. Some scholars have gone so far as to argue that the opposition to the Hebrew Gospel may have its roots in anti-Semitism. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15]
In any event as leading British historian Maurice Casey points out, there can be little doubt as to what Papias meant! "It is genuinely true that the apostle Matthew" compiled the sayings/oracles in a Hebrew language, but each (person) translated/ interpreted them as he was able. There is every reason to believe this. Casey 2010 p 86
Bart Ehrman and James Edwards now support Casey and argue that the Papias tradition "is a testimony that explicitly and credibly traces its own lineage directly back to the disciples of Jesus themselves." Ehrman 2012 pp 98-101 (ie the apostolic fountainhead) "It is in any case very early, within living memory of the apostolic age." James R. Edwards, 2009. pp 2-3
Indeed there can be no denying the striking and incontestable fact that the Apostle Matthew wrote the Hebrew Gospel. The widespread agreement of early sources on a number of points is remarkable and cannot be brushed aside, particularly since discrepancies among these sources regarding other points strongly suggest that they are not, for the most part, simply copying one another. Blackwell (2009) p 602 In total there are more than 75 ancient witnesses who testified to the fact that this Hebrew Gospel was in wide circulation. Twelve of the Early Church Fathers testified that it was written by the Apostle Matthew. No ancient writer either Christian or Non Christian challenged these two facts. Edwards (2009) p 259, p 102 & p 117.
The external evidence re Papias |
---|
References adduced by Ret.Prof ( talk · contribs) |
|
To those cynical of excavations of imaginary strata in an imaginary source document, the external evidence looks like a rock in a weary land. "And indeed, if we go back to the door of that library at Harvard and listen closely, we can hear a few voices insisting that the breadth, consistency and unanimity of the external evidence ought to be taken seriously!" Our challenge is to write an article on this topic from a NPOV - Ret.Prof ( talk) 16:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
- Ret.Prof ( talk) 16:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
I have reviewed ongoing debate and clearly there are some strong opinions. Terms such as Jihad are not helpful.
@In ictu oculi: I originally opposed this article but you have won me over.
@Ignocrates: I agree with your comments above. It is important not to provoke a confrontation. Thanks for the heads up that... Koester's 2000 book is the second edition of his original 1982 book, so his scholarly opinions are older than they appear. Futhermore we should not be clinging to these archaic conjectures from 100 years ago. In this article we should focus on the most up to date scholarship.
During my leave of absence I took the time to review the ongoing debate re the Hebrew gospel hypothesis over the last ten years! Many of the problems arise from combining two distinct issues into one! This has been a key factor in the ongoing edit war.
Keep these issues separate.
Was Papias correct, when he said that Matthew wrote down the sayings of Jesus in a Hebrew dialect? Some scholars support Papias and believe Matthew believe composed the Hebrew Gospel while others do not. Straight forward!
Here there is confusion and the scholarship is all over the place. At Wikipedia tempers have flared and there have been many, many problems.
Restrict the scope of the Hebrew Gospel hypothesis to the Hebrew Gospel hypothesis. Scholars cannot even say for certain if the Hebrew Gospel even existed! To go beyond beyond Issue 1 into Issue 2 will lead us into turmoil.
My proposal is to have the first part of the article explain what the Hebrew Gospel hypothesis consists of and why some scholars support it. In the second part of the article we present the scholarship that raises concerns about the hypothesis and why some feel it is untenable.
We must focus on reliable sources and make sure the scholarship is presented from a NPOV - Ret.Prof ( talk) 14:15, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
A request for Formal Mediation will be filed today. Please see the talk page of
User:PiCo Cheers -
Ret.Prof (
talk)
15:25, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
See /info/en/?search=Shem_Tob%27s_Hebrew_Gospel_of_Matthew#:~:text=Shem%20Tob's%20Hebrew%20Gospel%20of%20Matthew%20is%20the%20oldest%20extant,Tov%20ben%20Isaac%20ben%20Shaprut. 73.70.104.11 ( talk) 19:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
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There are lots of sources that refer to the Hebrew Gospel (see Google Link) but there is no source that refers to Hebrew Gospel hypothesis (see Google Link) Is this a spoof? - Ret.Prof ( talk) 04:11, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
Ret Prof, as you are the main recent advocate of the hypothesis of a Hebrew Gospel on Wikipedia, are you saying that the hypothesis doesn't exist but is it a fact? The following show that it is generally considered a hypothesis:
In ictu oculi ( talk) 22:56, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
"It originates with the early Christian writer Papias, and was then repeated by later Church Fathers including Jerome. It survives into the modern period, but studies have shown it to be untenable."
Wow - a good example of a biased & misleading statement. I understand that these articles pertaining to religion tend to bring out the worst in uncompromising mentalities, but come on. Yes, the earliest surviving evidence that the earliest gospel was a Hebrew version of Matthew comes from Papias (& perhaps Ignatius). But to imply that that position is only a theory that "originated" with Papias is misleading. And to state that that was then "repeated" Jerome (implying that Jerome merely repeated what Papias had claimed) is simply not true. As you yourself (sort of) acknowledge, Jerome claimed to have known of at least a couple of copies in existence at the time, and he even claimed to have personally translated a copy.
But you then repeat the view (assumption) of Koster (& Cameron) that Jerome couldn't possibly have translated anything from that gospel - he must have just copied some earlier quotes by Origen. But did Jerome copy from Origen? Is there any evidence to that effect? Wouldn't both of those writers have independently come up with the same translations if Jerome's claims were true? And even if Jerome copied from Origen, where did Origen come up with those quotes?
In truth, to deny the existence of an original Hebrew version of Matthew requires that we ignore a lot of historical evidence; and also that we ignore what practically every passage that the synoptics have in common actually say. Alan B25 ( talk) 04:16, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
I now see that this is a serious attempt to solve the issue before us.
Issue
- The Historical writings from the time of Jesus to the time of Jerome c.385 C.E., state Matthew wrote an eyewitness account of the life of Jesus called the Hebrew Gospel or sometimes the Gospel of the Hebrews. No ancient source either Christian or non-Christian disputes this. There are many scholars such a Lillie, Nicholson, Parker, Cassels, Edwards, Tabor, Schoemaker and Butz, who agree with the historical sources and explain why. Then there those who disagree such as Vielhauer and Schneemelcher.
Your solution is to divide the article into two. This article would reflect the position of the Historical writings from the time of Jesus to the time of Jerome c.385 C.E., which state Matthew wrote an eyewitness account of the life of Jesus called the Hebrew Gospel or sometimes the Gospel of the Hebrews. Scholars such a Lillie, Nicholson, Parker, Cassels, Edwards, Tabor, Schoemaker and Butz who support this position would also be included in this article .
The other article, the Gospel of the Hebrews would reflect the point of view of those who disagree such as such as Vielhauer and Schneemelcher.
I have carefully read WP:POVFORK and believe this solution goes against WP Policy. We as editors must work together to blend all the sources into a NPOV article. (See Reflections of an Old Geezer at User talk:Ret.Prof and Talk:Gospel of Matthew) Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 13:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Ret Prof. Well now you're really edit warring with all guns blazing. You've now deleted an article on the hypotheses of Nicholson/Parker/Edwards simply because it includes a detached view and restored old attempts to have the same hypothesis given a page Talk:Authentic Matthew and Talk:Authentic Gospel of Matthew.
Why not Authentic Gospel of Matthew hypothesis per Two-gospel hypothesis Two-source hypothesis? Because the phrase "Authentic Gospel of Matthew" is more loaded than "Hebrew Gospel". My personal opinion is that this is a fringe view which is borderline as to whether it deserves its own page. But that what I can only describe as enthusiasts for the view (of which you are only the latest) will populate main articles with the subject unless it has its own nest.
Note that this is the second unilateral page delete:
In ictu oculi ( talk) 22:47, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
I was going to nominate for deletion, but you are doing a good job. I am actually enjoying it. I still think it is a POV fork, but I will take no action. Good work - Ret.Prof ( talk) 00:28, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
I found your comments confusing and a little off topic. I made a serious effort to answers your questions:
Now back to topic. I think you are doing a good job. I am enjoying what you write. Cheers Ret.Prof ( talk) 15:19, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, In ictu oculi, for creating and developing this article. One question jumps out: what is the degree of overlap with the canonical GoM? The article talks about this reconstucted gospel without ever saying what its contents are. It would be helpful if the differences between, and similarities with, the other gospels was explicated. (The Gospel of Matthew article, for example, sets out the structure of the Gospel.) (I see that this is set out more at Hebrew Gospel, in which case the above point is redundant, but the following is still relevant.) Perhaps the sentence that ends
should be changed to
? -- cheers, Michael C. Price talk 08:30, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
That's fine. I have now (belatedly) added "or Aramaic" to Gospel of Matthew but you are right Hebrew Gospel hypothesis may well be a better REDIRECT. The making of the New Testament documents Edward Earle Ellis - 2002 speaks of "the Aramaic Matthew Hypothesis" and it looks like the Independence of Matthew and Mark John M. Rist and Aramaic sources of Mark's Gospel Maurice Casey - 1998 may have useful source material. And yes, you're correct it isn't a povfork, just a content fork not to overload the main Matthew article with a subset of Aramaic/Hebrew related hypotheses. Cheers. (btw please consider the benefits of registering, cheers!): In ictu oculi ( talk) 05:05, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
It has been suggested on this talk page that portions of the Hebrew (Aramaic) Gospel article that will improve the Gospel of the Hebrews article be moved there, and that other parts of the Hebrew (Aramaic) Gospel be merged into this Hebrew Gospel hypothesis article. Please discuss the merge into this article below. – Paine ( Climax!) 06:57, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
PiCo and I both concur that the content merge to the GH article is complete. Essentially, none of the content from the Hebrew (Aramaic) Gospel article was useful there. I copied a small section about Jerome to the talk page of the GN article. Nothing else was useful there, so we can spare the effort of yet another merge proposal to that article. Ignocrates ( talk) 20:10, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
In addition to searching for content that might be useful in the GH and GN articles, I went through the Hebrew (Aramaic) Gospel article section by section and made a reasonable effort to eliminate OR/POV/Duplication and content supported only by marginal sources. All of that process is described on the H(A)G talk page. The remaining material should be considered a stub at this point. The next step is to go through the stub and evaluate the remaining material for merging into this article. Someone else needs to step up and do that. I have had all the fun I can stand. Ignocrates ( talk) 21:11, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
This is my understanding, formed from a few days of research for the articles Gospel of the Hebrews and Jewish-Christian gospels. But first, an excellent guide is chapter 7 of Ehrman and Plese's recent (2011) book, The Apocryphal Gospels:Texts and Translations It's written in very readable English, but is by recognised scholars. And of course, it's recent, therefore up to date regarding scholarly arguments.
Also, don't forget about the wip page. There appear to be some good recent sources there, including Hans-Josef Klauck Apocryphal gospels: an introduction (2003) and Foster, Paul The non-canonical gospels (2008). Ignocrates ( talk) 05:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Schmidt, Peter Lebrecht (1998). "Und es war geschrieben auf Hebraisch, Griechisch und Lateinisch: Hieronymous, das Hebraer-Evangelium und seine mittelalterliche Rezeption". Filologia Mediolatina. 5: 49–93. Schmidt argues that there was one Jewish-Christian gospel, probably composed in Aramaic c. 100 AD. This journal article is frequently cited in reviews. Ignocrates ( talk) 16:40, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
We should mention the possibly legendary account, described by Ehrman (2011) p.38, of Eusebius in Historica Ecclestastica 5.10.3 reporting that Clement's teacher Pantaenus found a Hebrew version of Matthew's Gospel in India, which, according to tradition, had been brought there by the apostle Bartholomew. I don't see it mentioned here or in any other article on the gospels. It is mentioned in the article on Pantaenus, but that article is an OR/POV crap-fest. Ignocrates ( talk) 19:24, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
It appears that we have made reasonable efforts to incorporate any material from the Hebrew Gospel (Aramaic) article that might be useful into the Hebrew Gospel hypothesis article. In addition, I pasted a few things to the Talk:Gospel of the Nazoraeans and Talk:Q pages. What is the community's opinion about the ultimate fate of the Hebrew Gospel (Aramaic) article? Is there is room for a stub on a Hebrew (Aramaic) Matthew or should the whole thing be TNT'd by an AfD? I won't support a deletion by redirect for ethical reasons. Opinions please. Ignocrates ( talk) 17:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I changed the redirects so that Authentic Matthew and Authentic Gospel of Matthew redirect here instead of Jewish-Christian Gospels. Aramaic Matthew already redirected to this article. All of these articles are attempts to describe a hypothetical original Gospel of Matthew. Now all the redirects are logically consistent. Ignocrates ( talk) 22:06, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
I blanked the Hebrew Gospel (Aramaic) article and redirected it to this article. Now it is pointing to the same place as all the other so-called Authentic Matthew articles. Since we already established a consensus to merge (see discussion above), I didn't see any reason to drag this out. Ignocrates ( talk) 16:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
I found the following content by Shlomo Pines, including a complete translation, in Pines, Shlomo (1966). The Jewish Christians Of The Early Centuries Of Christianity According To A New Source (PDF). Proceedings of the Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities II, No. 13. ASIN B0006EAVD6. from an Arabic text entitled Tathbit Dala'il Nubuwwat Sayyidina Mahammad by Abd al-Jabbar ibn Ahmad:
(Shlomo Pines) "The historical texts may be divided into the following sections:
1. A text containing (a) a relation of the fortunes of the first Christian Community of Jerusalem from the death of Jesus till the flight of its members with a short reference to their tribulations in exile and (b) an account of the origin of the four canonical Gospels and of the successful efforts made to put an end to the use of the original Hebrew Gospels.
2. A short passage stating the reasons for the decadence of Christianity and giving a version of the first Christian attempts at converting the Gentiles in Antioch, which is probably based on the account figuring in the Acts of the Apostles.
3. A hostile biography of Saint Paul, partly also based on the Acts.
4. The second part of section 3 is joined or jumbled in a curious way with the beginning of section 4, which gives an account of Helena, the mother of the Emperor Constantine, of this emperor himself and of the Council of Nicaea and also refers to Constantine's successors. This section also contains a passage on Mani.
[deleting translation as the Pines quote itself pushes the limit of copyvio - if it can be shown that the translation is clearly copyright free it can be reinstated. Dougweller ( talk) 21:26, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Pines claims elsewhere in the article that the original language of composition was probably Syriac, and that Abd al-Jabbar translated the material into Arabic and adapted it for his own purposes. This material certainly seems applicable to an article on a hypothetical or lost Aramaic/Hebrew gospel. Ignocrates ( talk) 18:53, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
I know I said I was done with this article (and I am), but here are two links that might be of interest: link1 and link2. Ok, now I'm done. Ignocrates ( talk) 23:47, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
"Studies have shown this to be untenable" - Does Koster's opinion trump all the others or should someone add "Some" studies? I smell POV here. If you're going to just copy Koster's work, why not actually quote what it says which is "Several critical studies". Maybe even mention if those "critical studies" are from a particular POV or from all over the spectrum.- Sman Februrary 10 2013
"There is no doubt among modern scholars that this gospel, like the rest of the New Testament, was composed in koine Greek, the daily language of the time.[3] The anonymous author drew on three main sources, the Gospel of Mark, the sayings collection known as the Q source, both in Greek, and material unique to his own community, called M.[4] Mark and Q were both written sources composed in Greek..."
To describe (what may be) the currently popular or consensus view is of value, but it is misleading to make statements such as "There is no doubt among modern scholars..." In fact, there most certainly IS some doubt among some modern scholars regarding nearly every "matter-of-fact" statement that you make. For example, the prevalence of Aramaic vs. Hebrew (or Greek) is a matter of debate, with some recent scholarship (since the discovery that the majority of the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew) adding more weight to the use of Hebrew, at least in use for written (esp. religious) matters. There is even some debate as to whether Aramaic or Hebrew was the primary spoken language of Jesus and his Jewish followers.
And some of what you state is, as far as I have read, not accepted by anyone. For example, what evidence is there to support your claim that the 'Q' gospel was composed in Greek, or that it was a written source, or that it existed at all? Even the strongest supporters of the Mark & Q hypothesis will admit that 'Q' is a purely hypothetical construct that was invented in response to an otherwise fatal flaw in the theory of Markan priority. In other words, if one does not (mistakenly) insist on Markan priority, there is simply no need to invent a non-canonical Hebrew 'Q' source to account for any of the material in Matthew. In truth (& despite the currently popular view), it is evident in nearly passage that they have in common that Matthew's version served as the source for Mark's version.
Finally, I wonder why this article exists at all. Given that what modern scholars like to refer to as "the Hebrew Gospel" or "the Gospel of the Hebrews" was understood by the ancient sources to mean "the Gospel according to Matthew, as it was originally written in Hebrew", shouldn't this entire article be incorporated into the article for the Gospel of Matthew? Alan B25 ( talk) 03:36, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
I added this link because these two articles are sequentially related and we must take care to avoid duplication. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 14:11, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Good work. This article is now starting to take shape. You have done an excellent job of editing Mainline consensus to the year 2000. All we need to do now is add the most recent scholarship. Recently scholars such as Ehrman (2012) pp 98-101, Casey (2010) p 86-89 and Edwards (2009) pp 2-10 have taken the position that that Matthew collected the Sayings of Jesus and reduced them to writing. All three further state that this Hebrew Gospel is NOT the same as the Gospel of Matthew we have in our Canon.
Bart Ehrman is one of the most formidable Biblical historians of our time. He is the holder of a Distinguished Professorship. Not only is he required reading at most seminaries, but he has managed to hit New York Times best sellers list. In his most recent work Did Jesus Exist?, HarperCollins, 2012. pp 98-101 Bart D. Ehrman explains why Papias, who was born in 63 CE and was a Bishop in the Early Church is so very important. Although Ehrman takes the position that Matthew reduced the Oral Tradition to a Hebrew dialect (probably Aramaic) he does not believe that Matthew's Hebrew Gospel is the same as the Gospel of Matthew in our Bible. Because there is "a collection of Jesus's sayings made by Matthew, there is no reason to think that he is referring to" what we call Matthew". Ehrman adds, in fact, what Papias "says about these books does not coincide with what we ourselves know about the canonical Gospels." The Hebrew Gospel written by Matthew is distinct from the Gospel of Matthew that eventually came to be included in Scripture. p 101 Papias then, is "testimony that is independent of the Gospels themselves. It is yet one more independent line of testimony among the many we have seen so far. And this time it is a testimony that explicitly and credibly traces its own lineage directly back to the disciples of Jesus themselves." P 101
Maurice Casey is one of Britain's most noted historians. He is Emeritus Professor at the University of Nottingham, having served there as Professor of New Testament Languages and Literature at the Department of Theology. His most recent work Jesus of Nazareth: An Independent Historian's Account of His Life and Teaching, Continuum International Publishing Group, 2010. p 86-89 supports the aforementioned scholarship. Casey believes that Matthew collected the oral traditions of Jesus and reduced them to writing. "Papias attributed the collection of some Gospel traditions to the apostle Matthew, one of the Twelve, who wrote them down... There is every reason to believe this. It explains the high proportion of literally accurate traditions, mostly of sayings of Jesus, in the 'Q' material and in material unique to the Gospel of Matthew. p 86 Therefore "it is genuinely true that the apostle Matthew 'compiled the sayings/oracles in a Hebrew language." 88 Finally, he agrees with Ehrman that Matthew's Hebrew Gospel has no connection with our Gospel of Matthew. "This tradition is complete nonsense, as most scholars have recognized." p 87
Unlike Casey and Ehrman, James Edwards is a Christian scholar. He is a Bruner-Welch Professor of Theology, an Ordained Presbyterian minister, a contributing editor of Christianity Today, and member of the Center of Theological Inquiry, Princeton. In his most recent work the The Hebrew Gospel and the development of the Synoptic Tradition, Eerdmans Publishing, 2009. p 2 he confirms that the Oral Gospel traditions were collected by Matthew and that Matthew wrote them down in the Hebrew Gospel. p3
Then Edwards evaluates the testimony of Papias using the criteria of Casey and Ehrman. Papias is supported by 75 ancient witnesses who testified to the fact that there was a Hebrew Gospel in circulation. Google Link Twelve of the Church Fathers testified that it was written by the Apostle Matthew. Google Link No ancient writer, either Christian or Non Christian, challenged these two facts. Google Link
There is no rush to update this article as we have our hands full with the Oral gospel traditions but as always your help is appreciated! - Ret.Prof ( talk) 14:11, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Have a strong sense of deja vu here, has this already appeared/been deleted in other articles? Tends to WP:OR against WP:WEIGHT. In ictu oculi ( talk) 23:33, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
In ictu oculi, please stop mass deleting information on this page without a reasonable basis. I will reverting the page to undo the mass deletion that has no basis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deadtotruth ( talk • contribs) 00:00, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
By the way, the recent addition of material uses a source called "Koester 1990". What book is this? The only book I see in the Ref section from Koester is from 2000.-- FutureTrillionaire ( talk) 02:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
One passage that it is argued contains a logical improbability in Greek is Matthew 4:8. There isn't a mountain high enough to view "all of the kingdoms of the earth" since the earth is round. The Hebrew word found in Ibn Shaprut's medieval translation of the Greek Gospel of Matthew in the appendix to The Touchstone (c.1380) uses "eretz" [1] which can be translated as earth or land. [2] By substituting the Hebrew word "eretz" into the passage makes it possible that "all the kingdoms of the land of Israel" were viewed from a high mountain such as Mount Tabor in Israel.
Another proposed example concerns Matthew 24:51 and Luke 12:46. Agnes Smith Lewis (1910) noted that the verb used in all of the Syriac versions "palleg" has the primary meaning of "cut in pieces" and the secondary one of "appoint to some one his portion." The primary sense leads to the possible problem of how someone cut to pieces could then be assigned to something else. But, Smith argues, if we take the secondary meaning then we are may suggest that the Greek translator misunderstood a Syriac idiom by taking it too literally. The translation would be "and shall allot his portion and shall place him with the unfaithful" instead of the Greek "shall cut him in pieces and shall place him with the unfaithful." [3] Hugh J. Schonfield (1927) notes that the Hebrew verb "bahkag" means literally to "break forth, cleave asunder" and concludes that the Greek translator has failed to grasp the sense in which the Hebrew word is here used. [4]
Another proposed example involves the genealogy in Matthew. Schonfield (1927) argues that the text of Matthew indicates three genealogical groups of 14 each. However, the Greek texts of Matthew have two groups of 14 and a final group of 13. The Syriac Curetonian and Syriac Sinaiticus add the following to Matthew 1:13, "Abiud begat Abiur, Abiur begat Eliakim. Dutillet's Hebrew version of Matthew adds Abihud begat Abner; Abner begat Eliakim. [5] In both Syriac and Hebrew the spellings between Abiud and Abiur are so close that during translation into Greek the second name could have been dropped mistakenly. In any case, all Greek texts contain only 13 names while possibly indicating 14 should be in the final portion of the list. The two Syriac texts and one Hebrew text have 14 names and indicate 14 should be in the final portion of the list.
Portions of the oral sayings in Matthew contain vocabulary that may indicate Hebrew or Aramaic linguistic techniques involving puns, alliterations, and word connections. Hebrew/Aramaic vocabulary choices possibly underlie the text in Matthew 1:21, 3:9, 4:12, 4:21-23, 5:9-10, 5:23, 5:47-48, 7:6, 8:28-31, 9:8, 10:35-39, 11:6, 11:8-10, 11:17, 11:29, 12:13-15, 12:39, 14:32, 14:35-36, 15:34-37, 16:18, 17:05, 18:9, 18:16, 18:23-35, 19:9-13, 19:24, 21:19, 21:37-46, 21:42, 23:25-29, 24:32, 26:28-36, 26:52. [6] [7] [8]
Scholars have put forward several theories to explain Papias: perhaps Matthew wrote two gospels, one, now lost, in Hebrew, the other our Greek version; or perhaps the logia was a collection of sayings rather than the gospel; or by dialektōi Papias may have meant that Matthew wrote in the Jewish style rather than in the Hebrew language. [9] Nevertheless, on the basis of this and other information Jerome (c. 327–420) claimed that all the Jewish Christian communities shared a single gospel, identical with the Hebrew or Aramaic Matthew; he also claimed to have personally found this gospel in use among some communities in Syria. [10]
Jerome's testimony is regarded with skepticism by modern scholars. Jerome claims to have seen a gospel in Aramaic that contained all the quotations he assigns to it, but it can be demonstrated that some of them could never have existed in a Semitic language. His claim to have produced all the translations himself is also suspect, as many are found in earlier scholars such as Origen and Eusebius. Jerome appears to have assigned these quotations to the Gospel of the Hebrews, but it appears more likely that there were at least two and probably three ancient Jewish-Christian gospels, only one of them in a Semitic language. [11] These would be in addition to the Syriac Curetonian and Sinaiticus manuscripts found at Mount Sinai and believed to have originated between the 2nd and 4th centuries.
This is the large chunk of mainly WP:OR which the User has been repeatedly planting on en.wp. This is what needs full axing In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:39, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Here is the complete reference. What's on your mind, specifically? Please produce page numbers and quotations to back up your seemingly nebulous claims. Ignocrates ( talk) 04:24, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
I have requested an opinion as to the notability of George Howard (Hebraist) as a scholar in the field of Hebrew Gospel studies at WP:Notability/Noticeboard#George Howard (Hebraist). Ignocrates ( talk) 13:32, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
I’m assuming this is a different document to the
Gospel of the Hebrews, is that correct? If so, this article, (and that one) would benefit from an {{other tag, and an explanatory sentence in the introduction, as it is confusing as it stands. Currently, the only clue to the difference is in the Theory section, which is a third of the way down the page.
I've also noticed there is a looong discussion on the
Hebrew Gospel page (currently a redirect); I've made a proposal
there that might help.
Moonraker12 (
talk)
10:11, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
The Hebrew Gospel debate is one of the most controversial of our time! Scholars are divided! Some believe that Matthew wrote an early Gospel in a Hebrew dialect that was the fountainhead for later gospels. Others believe this to be fringe scholarship that is untenable. The basis for the debate comes from Papias of Hierapolis in Asia Minor (modern Turkey b. 63 A.D). Blackwell (2010) p 301
Papias (b. 63 A.D.) Matthew wrote down the sayings of Jesus (logia) in a Hebrew dialect (en Hebraidi dialecto), and everyone translated (hermeneusen) them to the best of their ability. [12] [13] [14] [15] [16]
Those who oppose Papias argue the existence of a Hebrew or Aramaic Matthew is on the "fringes of scholarship today." Perkins (2007) p 197 and that "critical studies" have shown that testmony of Papias "is untenable." Köster (2000) p 207
By the mid 20 C many scholars took the position that the Hebrew Gospel never existed. There were two reasons for this.
First, it has been shown that Canonical Gospel of Matthew is not a translation of Matthew's Hebrew Gospel. This makes it untenable that the Hebrew Gospel ever existed, for if it was never translated into Koine Greek, this is proof that it never existed. Walter Bauer (1934) goes on to explain Papias' should be understood as an attempt to defend the canonical Greek Gospel of Matthew from being used improperly, since he considered heretics in Asia Minor were misusing it.
Second Joseph Kurzinger argued that "Hebraidi dialecto" should not be translated as "Hebrew dialect" but rather as "Koine Greek".
He studied the Papias quote: "Matthew collected the oral teachings of Jesus (logia) in a Hebrew dialect (Hebraidi dialecto), and everyone translated (hermeneusen) them to the best of their ability." On the surface it implies that Matthew's Gospel was written in Hebrew. However, upon closer study by Hebraidi dialecto, Papias meant that Matthew wrote in the "Semitic rhetorical style" rather than in the Hebrew language. Therefore if the comment refers to "style" not "language" the gospel could have been written in Greek. Thus Hebraidi dialecto does not mean "a Hebrew dialect" but rather "Koine Greek" proving there never was a Hebrew Gospel.
At the turn of the Century, scholars started to take a second look at Papias and many historians are now taking the position that his testimony preserved by Eusebius may "be fairly trustworthy." Blackwell (2010) p 301
Indeed, there has been some serious pushback to "Critical studies showing Papias is untenable." Scholars agree that the Gospel of Matthew was not a translation of the Hebrew Gospel. However, they argue that the Papias note never stated that the Hebrew Gospel was translated into the canonical Gospel of Matthew. Indeed, to say that 'Hebrew Matthew' could not exist because it was never translated into 'canonical Matthew' is a "spurious intellectual argument". The "translation issue" does not call into question the existence of the Hebrew gospel. The Dead Sea Scrolls have shown that Hebrew and Aramaic texts did exist without ever having been translated into Koine Greek. Furthermore, the Dead sea Scrolls show Hebraidi dialecto, can refer to 'vocabulary', or 'vocabulary and style' but never should be translated as 'Koine Greek'. Some scholars have gone so far as to argue that the opposition to the Hebrew Gospel may have its roots in anti-Semitism. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15]
In any event as leading British historian Maurice Casey points out, there can be little doubt as to what Papias meant! "It is genuinely true that the apostle Matthew" compiled the sayings/oracles in a Hebrew language, but each (person) translated/ interpreted them as he was able. There is every reason to believe this. Casey 2010 p 86
Bart Ehrman and James Edwards now support Casey and argue that the Papias tradition "is a testimony that explicitly and credibly traces its own lineage directly back to the disciples of Jesus themselves." Ehrman 2012 pp 98-101 (ie the apostolic fountainhead) "It is in any case very early, within living memory of the apostolic age." James R. Edwards, 2009. pp 2-3
Indeed there can be no denying the striking and incontestable fact that the Apostle Matthew wrote the Hebrew Gospel. The widespread agreement of early sources on a number of points is remarkable and cannot be brushed aside, particularly since discrepancies among these sources regarding other points strongly suggest that they are not, for the most part, simply copying one another. Blackwell (2009) p 602 In total there are more than 75 ancient witnesses who testified to the fact that this Hebrew Gospel was in wide circulation. Twelve of the Early Church Fathers testified that it was written by the Apostle Matthew. No ancient writer either Christian or Non Christian challenged these two facts. Edwards (2009) p 259, p 102 & p 117.
The external evidence re Papias |
---|
References adduced by Ret.Prof ( talk · contribs) |
|
To those cynical of excavations of imaginary strata in an imaginary source document, the external evidence looks like a rock in a weary land. "And indeed, if we go back to the door of that library at Harvard and listen closely, we can hear a few voices insisting that the breadth, consistency and unanimity of the external evidence ought to be taken seriously!" Our challenge is to write an article on this topic from a NPOV - Ret.Prof ( talk) 16:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
- Ret.Prof ( talk) 16:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
I have reviewed ongoing debate and clearly there are some strong opinions. Terms such as Jihad are not helpful.
@In ictu oculi: I originally opposed this article but you have won me over.
@Ignocrates: I agree with your comments above. It is important not to provoke a confrontation. Thanks for the heads up that... Koester's 2000 book is the second edition of his original 1982 book, so his scholarly opinions are older than they appear. Futhermore we should not be clinging to these archaic conjectures from 100 years ago. In this article we should focus on the most up to date scholarship.
During my leave of absence I took the time to review the ongoing debate re the Hebrew gospel hypothesis over the last ten years! Many of the problems arise from combining two distinct issues into one! This has been a key factor in the ongoing edit war.
Keep these issues separate.
Was Papias correct, when he said that Matthew wrote down the sayings of Jesus in a Hebrew dialect? Some scholars support Papias and believe Matthew believe composed the Hebrew Gospel while others do not. Straight forward!
Here there is confusion and the scholarship is all over the place. At Wikipedia tempers have flared and there have been many, many problems.
Restrict the scope of the Hebrew Gospel hypothesis to the Hebrew Gospel hypothesis. Scholars cannot even say for certain if the Hebrew Gospel even existed! To go beyond beyond Issue 1 into Issue 2 will lead us into turmoil.
My proposal is to have the first part of the article explain what the Hebrew Gospel hypothesis consists of and why some scholars support it. In the second part of the article we present the scholarship that raises concerns about the hypothesis and why some feel it is untenable.
We must focus on reliable sources and make sure the scholarship is presented from a NPOV - Ret.Prof ( talk) 14:15, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
A request for Formal Mediation will be filed today. Please see the talk page of
User:PiCo Cheers -
Ret.Prof (
talk)
15:25, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
See /info/en/?search=Shem_Tob%27s_Hebrew_Gospel_of_Matthew#:~:text=Shem%20Tob's%20Hebrew%20Gospel%20of%20Matthew%20is%20the%20oldest%20extant,Tov%20ben%20Isaac%20ben%20Shaprut. 73.70.104.11 ( talk) 19:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)