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All that really needs to be said here is that "nu-metal" is merely hard rock in disguise and not metal at all.
I typed it in expecting Tchaikovsky's 1812, Wellington's Victory, and the whole sub-class of obscure classical pieces nobody can ever neatly categorise as anything else. And I end up here, in spite of there only be being two instances of the world Battle in the entire page on heavy metal music (the only one of significance being the quoting of the influence of "battle hymns" - not even one line). Any thoughts on at least a disambiguation page, since a "list of battle music" page wouldn't be hard to set up. Graldensblud 23:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed the second Metallica example in the last paragraph of the themes section, simply because we do not need a list of every single metal song/album that has ever contributed "to the discussion of the state of affairs". I hope nobody minds.
Wikipedia FAQ clearly states no links to commercial sites. The people who keep reposting this link work for AMG and are serving their own interests and not the whole of the metal community or the Wikipedia editors. Anon October 18, 2006
The AMG article on heavy metal is meaningless as the same info is covered on the Heavy Metal page of Wikipedia. If anything was quoted or referenced, then it should be credited and listed in the Reference sections and not the External Links section. Better sites can be found that deal with the history of metal and metal bands and not some corporate site like AMG.
I've been watching this article for a while, and it seems like people are too focused on particular bands. Some major figures such as Sabbath, Priest, Maiden, and Metallica are candidates for more lengthy discussion, but couldn't minor figures just get put on to a list at the end of each history section? Or maybe put a link to a more detailed article with a list of bands? Anon August 14, 2006
"Plus, Rhapsody of Fire have used many classical string instruments and have created a new style which they call 'Film Score Metal'." This band does not need to be mentioned. Not only does the sentence sound illogical in the course of the paragraph, but Heavy Metal bands have been using string instruments and other classical elements long before 1997, when their debut came out. To me this a plug to get this band on the heavy metal history page so theyve been removed.-- Tomtheebomb 21:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Queen have been recognized as pioneers of heavy metal. Queen(1973), Queen II(1974), and Sheer Heart Attack(1974) are heavy metal. A Night at the Opera, News of the World, and others have heavy metal on them. Thay have mixed heavy metal with arena rock, glam rock, progressive rock, punk rock, and even opera. - Mtmtmt 05:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
is too short and really says nothing about the genre except that some people don't like it, list a few band names and mention the connection to grunge that only has to do with a few alt. metal and nu metal bands.
A spammer keeps adding this poor quality site to the links. If you have a look at their edits, their sole purpose on Wikipedia is adding this site to links of bands pages [1]. - Deathrocker 19:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
This has been bothering me for a while. The infobox would lead you to believe that classical music is an overarching influence on metal, but the text within the article doesn't back the claim up, beyond mentioning Ritchie Blackmore, Yngwie, Randy Rhoads and the tenuous Iron Maiden bit at the end of the section. maxcap 23:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
So, I've been having a hell of a time finding a reference for the 'Maiden Powerslave comparison in the last paragraph, can anyone help provide a source? maxcap 18:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
What?!? There's no Classical influences in metal. Classical music is restrained and controled. Romantic music is the previous type of music that you're looking for. JMan8088
I question the influence of classical music being pervasive enough to warrant it's inclusion as a primary influence in the genre box. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? maxcap 18:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
What is meant by "classical"?==== Metal has little to no classical influence, periodically speaking. It has LOADS of baroque influence as far as improvisation goes, and romantic influence in the general mindset, especially more symphonic metal bands.
maxcap - i reverted your change removing classical from the genre box because unfortunately a big chunk of the end of the article also got removed, which i assume was accidental. thought about removing the reference in the genrebox, but as i have no opinion on the matter, i figured i'd leave that to you-- Ultranaut 06:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps it should say European art music, or Western concert music, to avoid possible confusions about the word "classical"?
It's funny when people who talk about the influence of classical music on heavy metal music always cite the same 5-6 classical musicians. Even funnier is when people who like Nightwish, Children of Bodom, Therion, Stratovarius, Edguy... put in their mouth the names of Beethoven, Mozart, or Wagner... BTW, I find Judas Priest much better than Paganini. ;)
The solo at the end of "Let's Go Crazy" might be a swell bit of guitar virtuosity, but the song itself isn't metal. The most we can say is that the track is a bouncy pop song smacked with a tasteful edge. However, we can't expect anyone to argue that it is a "metal" song. Making a reference to it on the Heavy Metal entry is just baffling.
I think the two were significantly relevent enough during the 90s to warrant a mention in the article, and perhaps a mention of the high level of heavy metal influence in Alice In Chains music too.
It wouldn't really fit in with the nu-metal section, anybody have any ideas? - Deathrocker 20:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
To have the subgenres abreviated in the info box as so...
Heavy metal | |
---|---|
Stylistic origins | Psychedelic rock, European classical music and British blues |
Cultural origins | Late 1960s United Kingdom |
Typical instruments | Guitar — Bass — Drums |
Subgenres | |
Black -
Death —
Doom —
Folk —
Glam —
Gothic —
Industrial -
Neo-classical —
Power —
Progressive -
Symphonic metal —
Thrash ( complete list) | |
Regional scenes | |
Gothenburg — Britain — Bay Area — Florida | |
Other topics | |
Fashion — Genres - History — Bands — Umlaut |
If somebody is just reading through the article, it could be confusing, as it says "Folk" rather than "Folk metal" as a subgenre, and "Glam" rather than "Glam Metal", for example. Shouldn't it be fully typed out, to avoid confusion for those who are just reading this article? - Deathrocker 22:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the edit summary, You do realise
WP:HMM isn't an official authority on Wikipedia articles don't you?.. decisions for articles are made on their appropriate talkpages, after discussion... like HERE for example (that is what the talkpages are for).
WP:HMM is just an unofficial group for people on Wikipedia who say they like some form of metal music... and wish to work together on/create some articles.
You do not have to be part of WP:HMM to edit metal articles on here, its an open encyclopedia, not an (invisible) democracy to quote Jimbo Wales. If people who are members of WP:HMM wish to come over to this article and discuss the inclusion of certain information logically then, cool, lets see them do so.. a "yes, no" poll on some unofficial group not even on the articles talkpage doesn't have authority over articles.
In this articles info box it states "-- Note: Due to major debate that springs up from time to time and edits that might compromise the article's integrity, please discuss any major changes to this article on the Talk Page first. --" this was not done yet for such large sections to be blanked. - Deathrocker 23:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I lost some data in the process of archiving, and I'm not able to edit a previous version to move it over. Can anyone help? maxcap 00:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I'll sort it out... keeping more recent/crreunt discussions on this page, the rest archieved. - Deathrocker 01:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
OK... that should be better now, got the data back and kept some of the more current discussion on here. - Deathrocker 01:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This seems inaccurate. What about progressive metal, technical death, and many other VERY rhythmically complex subgenresgenres? Metal now contains some of the most rhythmically complex music in existence. Even in less complex subgenres, the rhythms are more complex than in many other forms of music - guitar rhythms, at least, in thrash, etc. I would say that the majority of metal is far more rhythmically complex than most mainstream rock!
We need to seriously discuss what should be in the external links section of this page. Links keep getting removed and inserted on a regular basis by both registered and unregistered users. WesleyDodds 00:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems that Gothenburg Metal now redirects to Melodic Death Metal, in my opinion we need something that seperates the early Scandavian Metal Scene from other early extreme ends, Perhaps we can fix Scandavian Death Metal to a more generic Scandavian Metal, which would include the early Norweigan Dark Metal and the Gothenburg Scene? I realize that the main page for this may not be the best place for the discussion, but the infobox includes Gotheburg as a region and its not longer a seperate page. Atechi 23:42 24 June 2006
Is the small part on eurovision all that necessary? Lordi are by no means an important part of heavy metal nor is the eurovision win a milestone in heavy metal.
-- N R S (talk to me, mail me or award me a barnstar) 13:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Maybe an section titled "awards" or "industry recognition" or something like that could be created that way the Eurovision thing could be integrated with othe awards of note. maxcap 21:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Lordi is hardly metal, they are more like hard rock or some other softer genre of music, I've listened to pretty much all their songs and they're kind of like GWAR only a lot softer, so I say, Lordi goes. Omicron91
Metal is a genre, heavy metal is a sub genre
Don't make us go through this debate again. :D (You see, quite a while ago there was a big argument about this exact thing. It took a long time for a decision to be reached, put it that way.) :P
-- FrasierC 21:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The last sentence in paragraph 4 under "Themes", is that supposed to be a quotation? If so, it's not structured very well. Shall that be changed?
Surely no definitive Heavy Metal article can ignore Manowar?
Manowars, admittedly self-proclaimed, crusade for "true metal" is merely an extrapolation of the natural antagonism which exponents of extreme art will often outwardly declare towards less challenging art forms. Manowar exemplified this artistic antagonism (expressed purely in terms that a teenager could understand) and indeed wore it as a badge of honour, or perhaps more relevantly, utilized it as a market differentiator. This, however, is only one of many interesting facets of a band which, even amongst heavy metal aficionados, inspires polar reactions in either direction. -- MichaelTurley 13:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Manowar is very influential on power metal and heavy metal. They even influenced Rhapsody of Fire (previously just, Rhapsody). But i still dont see why they should be mentioned Deimoss 02:00, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
They were plenty influencing, but I don't know if exactly essential. Fair to mention I assume. They also influenced the phrase "Other bands play Rammstein BURNS!" with their lyrics, "Other bands play Manowar KILL!" -- Trusader 00:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Heya I created a template page for the genre box. Could someone replace the one on the main page with it (my browser cuts the bottom of the page off).
Just click edit on this section and copy from here and paste to the main. Thanks! maxcap 18:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this section, with the following reasoning:
- This is an extremely new phenomenon; it is yet to be seen whether or not it will have any impact on the genre, especially to a degree that would warrant its placement in the main article.
- Many of those so-called "revival" bands that were mentioned do not "take influence from the original 1970s and 1980s pioneers of the genre" nor do they play in that style. Rather, the music itself is much more in line with the sound of stoner rock (or, sometimes, stoner metal) sounds, already established as a sub-genre/movement in its own right in the 1990s with artists like Fu Manchu and Kyuss. The Sword, for example, insist that Black Sabbath is not an influence [3]; the official Myspace page for Wolfmother cites zero heavy metal bands among their list of influences [4] and they openly claim that they were never influenced by any "'70s rock" band, nor have they ever intended to sound like one. [5]
- The leading bands in this so-called "heavy metal revival" wave come from outside the genre, with a pedigree based in the indie-rock or modern hardcore scenes. Their audiences, accordingly, can mainly be found within the indie-rock (and even hipster) crowds. The phenomenon they represent is not part of heavy metal as a genre and a movement, but has more to do with the general trend towards irony-laden retro-isms in the contemporary music industry as a whole. To illustrate by comparison - if bands like Franz Ferdinand or Bloc Party are not mentioned in the post-punk article (and rightly so!), neither should their "metal" counterparts be mentioned in the heavy metal one.
- In heavy metal circles, both the credibility of these bands and their "heavy metal" identity are widely contested. This sudden "revival" (much celebrated in certain media outlets) is generally seen as fiction, concocted by industry PR men and out-of-touch music critics for the purpose of having something to package and sell as "new", ignoring the fact that actual traditional heavy metal has never really ceased to flourish within the metal scene in its 30+ years of existence; for examples of this attitude and for further reading, see [6], [7], [8] (search for "boswell" especially), [9], [10].
Trends that have proved immensely more important and influential to heavy metal than this, like 1990's Scandinavian black metal or even the Gothenburg scene of melodic metal, are either mentioned in a sentence or two in the article, or not mentioned at all; in light of this - and of the reasons listed above - having this section is ludicrous. Unless there is a really convincing counter-argument, I posit that it should stay out of the article.
- 80.178.76.86 18:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Its happening here and now of course it deserves a mention, as for a "lack of impact or notability" Wolfmother have charted on the Billboard higher end of the Billboard top hundred and on the UK and Canadian chart, and other bands have won awards in notable rock magazine such as Classic Rock, its a revival its happening now... and not in some obscure movement either. As for influences...
Take a look at Wolfmother's article, they have cited the orignal 70s metal bands as their influences as have The Answer, etc to dismiss them all as "stoner rock" when their music doesn't sound like that is ignorance. They just probably get tired of pencil neck journalists repeating the same question over and over, "what are your influences?" is right up there with "how did you get the band name"? The movement also has had full articles on and mentions in many magazines such as Classic Rock, Guitar World, and Revolver [11]... where it is sometimes named "Hipster metal".
And as for claiming scenes such as " Scandinavian black metal or even the Gothenburg scene of melodic metal," is more important to metal shows an extreme bias, and POV towards an extreme metal preference, those genres in all their existance did not have the comerical notability these current Trad Revivalists have. They are also very, very distant subgenres of genuine metal and sonically closer to hardcore rather than anything to do with heavy metal ala Sabbath, Zeppelin, Blue Cheer, Deep Purple, etc, while this Trad Revival is relevent musically and notability wise to an article on heavy metal music. - Deathrocker 11:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Click on the link after "Revolver" there is a copy of one of the articles - Deathrocker 14:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've used the Revolver article source which mentions Wolfmother, Witch & Illuminati. And a couple of others including a VH1 source to vertify the information. - Deathrocker 20:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I've heard The Sword, and it sounds like classic metal to me. And what makes you all think that the music is "ironic"? It doesn't seem ironic to me. It just rocks, and has fantasy elements. Be open to new things - you sound like a bunch of close-minded geezers.
in the section dealing with the development of metal in the 1980's, why has death and thrash metal been mentioned whist doom metal been left out? Nemesis, Pentagram, St. Vitus and WItchfinder General were produceing doom *very* early in the 1980's! Furthermore, Doom may be argued to be one of *the* first directions metal took (Black Sabbath) when it was in its 1969 fledling state (see Black Sabbath's debut album with eponymous song - its not even written in pentatonic or hexatonic blues scales!) Doom metal remains a vibrant style today, and developed (esp. in the UK) through the 1990's (eg. Paradise Lost, Anathema, Count Raven, My Dying Bride, Type O Negative etc.)
Why we are on the topic of forgotten sub-styles, where is the technical metal/techno-thrash (eg. Voivod, Watchtower?) The discussion of Black Metal seems cursory at best, and is in fact completely absent from the discussion on developments during the 1990's, and from the section on cultural influence - most insufficient considering the church burning and murder crime wave that began in Norway in the early 90's: This became international news.
I myself tire rapidly of obsessive and idiotic over-taxonymising of music and art in general, but these are well-recognized and influential developments in Heavy Metal, and not just the preserve of DJ lexicon or a handful of obscure bands.
"Forgotten sub-styles"? When did Doom, or any real part of Metal roll over and die? Dace59 13:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I meant forgotten from *this* Wikkipedia article for goodness sake - couldn't you ascertain that from both the current context (ie an article discussion area!) and from what I was overtly arguing for!?!?
Dusksailor 15:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
As it stands right now, Mercyful Fate is only mentioned as the originators of the corpse paint in the underground scene. Anyone into the underground scene in 81-84 knows that Mercyful Fate was one of the most important bands, along with Venom and Celtic Frost. The barrage of riffs, shifting song structures and strong rythem section is what spawned Thrash Metal in the first place. The Neo-classical guitar work raised the bar for guitarists everywhere! King Diamond's shifting 7 octave vocal range raised the bar for metal vocalists. Everyone knows they were Metallica's ( And Megadeth's ) biggest influence. Their heavy Satanic lyrics at the time were new, unmatched ( and legit ) and heavily inspired black and death metal. Also, I'll go out on a limb and say King Diamond's extreme way of screaming falsetto is what created the Black Metal guttural screech ( along with Chronos and Tom Warrior's vocal style ). Surely, Mercyful Fate deserve a atleast a small paragraph to themselves.
Dusksailor 15:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, I've followed Metallica since the beginning and I've heard them say countless times Mercyful Fate was their biggest influence ( I thought their Mercyful Fate Medley on Garage INC. and them playing it in their live sets was proof enough? ) , but Diamond Head and Motorhead were definitly up there too. I've actually heard them say Iron Maiden wasen't a big influence but that's not relevant right now. I know King was mimicking the NWOBHM style in some songs, however in Nuns have no fun, in the line "They never fail" he does a proto-black/death style growl, and that's the earliest of that kind of growl I could find. I believe that the trio of King, Warrior and Cronos is what spawned the black/death metal style.
I've heard King has a 7 octave range many times, but I can't confirm it. Do you know the exact number? I can never find a confirmation, usually people cite it's 5-7. I know there are more inspiration guitarists that predate Mercyful Fate, however listening to their early demos and first two records, I can definitly see alot of inspirational in the guitar work as a whole - especially the riffs. Mercyful Fate has got to be the most important link between NWOBHM and thrash.
It seems evident to me that Neo-classical and folk metal should both be listed as fusion genres. Also, I think that the sub-genres should be limited to the great 8 of classic, doom, death, gothic, thrash, power, progressive and black, as of now. Groove metal, rapcore, etc. are dubious subgenres at best that have not been established to the extent that, say, melodic death, Viking metal, etc. have. In addition, speed metal is not a real genre. I've usually heard it used to mean thrash metal, and "speed" is simply not accurate, because much of thrash is NOT particularly fast. A lot of Metallica, especially. (Walri)
Speed Metal "kind of" does exist... It is quite visible that it would split into both THRASH and POWER metal. Just look at the early, early Blind Guardian stuff, or even Motorhead and Judas Priest. Granted those bands moved out of that. I don't agree with Gamma Ray being classed under Speed Metal though, they're definitely what I would call Power Metal. Vegetaman 19:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Alright, seems there was a misunderstanding of what I thought the term referred to. Still, I don't think it is a major sub-genre. I would consider Motorhead to be "Classic" metal.
Dusksailor 14:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The claims contained in the sentence..."the late-70s cross-fertilization of heavy metal with fast-paced, youthful punk rock (e.g. Sex Pistols), culminating in the New Wave of British Heavy Metal around the year 1980, led by bands like Judas Priest and Iron Maiden." is fallacious for three reasons. Firstly, NWOBHM is NOT regarded as being a product of Punk "cross-fertilization", as its origins predated the Punk movement's rise in the mid-late 1970's. (It is ususally understood that NWOBHM and punk influenced one another during the 1980's and this exchange of musical ideas gave birth to Thrash Metal). Secondly, the NWOBHM did not "culminate" "around the year 1980", but rather somewhat after that. (In fact, Iron maiden had only released a demo, a few singles and their first album by 1980.) Thirdly, Judas Priest, stricly speaking were NOT a NWOBHM band at all, and predate this movement by years: they released a 2-track demo in 1973, their first album ("Rocka Rolla") in 1974, and according to Mark Hale (1993) they formed way back 1969. Nothing New Wave about Judas Priest - they were well ahead of the breaker, recording back in the Lommi-Osbourne-Butler-Ward Black Sabbath period, years before the Punk craze had even begun. Dusksailor 14:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Ha Ha ! Didn't you guys understand ? The way Dusksailor is going about things, it is pretty obvious that he is Leyasu's sockpuppet. Leyasu is banned, so he comes here in disguise and pretends to reason and dicuss hiding his original tendency to vandalise and his vanity. Please report and ban this user.
-- Leyasu Sockpuppet Killer 16:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
A complete retraction and apology is expected thank you very much Mr/Ms "Leyasu Sockpuppet Killer", and pronto. Dusksailor 17:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Dusksailor 12:57, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, since that account has been blocked you might never get one, but I can understand you still wanting an apology from that user if they're registered a new name. But if they haven't come back, or just ignoring this, sadly you won't get one. Dace59 13:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
This is incredible. this music's name is "metal". and "heavy metal" is one of its subgenres like trash metal,black metal,etc. What is going on here? somebody should fix that. it is a big fault for a site like wikipedia!
it was always called "heavy metal for 20 years until the fans became pedantic about classification and "-metal" became a suffix (i.e. thrash metal, death metal). "metal" is just an abbreviation. 67.172.61.222 20:39, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Iron Maiden have not broken up, yet this article implies that they are on a reunion tour. - Enzo Dragon 23:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks -- Ling.Nut 15:48, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Please remember that Fair Use images should only be used as a last resort where critical commentary is required, not just to "illustrate" an album anytime it is mentioned. Only one image on this page had an explicit relevance to the text. Thanks, ed g2s • talk 16:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we should consider adding some musical samples to the article like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_music has.
I don't know how to encode a file in ogg format, but would be willing to contribute. I think I still have that Korn song around here somewhere from when I owned it. One suggestion though: Black Sabbath would be a much better choice for "origins" and Slayer would be a better choice for "Underground metal." Metallica were much more known at that point than Slayer and stylistically were quite different from everyone else; something like "Angel of Death" was a bit moe typical for thrash at that time. Ours18 00:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
How is Metallica "Underground metal"? Inhumer 00:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Could there be a cross over between grunge and metal? - User:Cronus (band) Yes, like Seether, but they are post-grunge, alice in chains is metal at times APACOlypse27 00:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, why were the characteristics removed? I liked them, and I see no reason for their removal. Lehi 02:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
SHOCK ROCK?
The Steppenwolf song is frequently cited when discussing the origins of the term Heavy Metal, but it seems pretty clear from the context of the lyrics that this term is referring to motorcycles. FWIW. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.23.168.20 ( talk • contribs) 12:16, 3 December 2006 (UTC).
I was reading an article that described a band as "ethno metal" I clicked on "ethno metal" in the article and it redirected here. But there is no mention of ethno metal in the article. Can someone explain what it is, and why it redirects to this page when there's no explanation? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.245.138.168 ( talk • contribs) 06:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC).
Please set it up for creation/review in the WikiProject:Metal site, tnx User:Jman8088. December 14, 2006. 5:38 pm.
Someone deleted a list of bands I had created on the proto-metal page, which to me was foolish. The proto-metal article is definately needed, because everyone keeps adding minor bands to the Origins section, and it was getting too damn long. I revived the proto-metal list, and moved all references to bands other than Sabbath, Zeppelin, and Deep Purple in the main heavy metal article to the proto-metal page.
Please discuss any problems here before reverting. Thanks.
I'm kind of surprised there's no mention of the general lack of critical acclaim of metal. I love metal and it seems many critics don't think much of it (ex. Allmusicguide having Black/Death metal as a genre (something most fans would be highly contentious about), or a site like pitchfork focusing on independent releases that never reviews metal but will review multi-platinum rap albums.) Oderus 02:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I know that he says he started the trend, but could we get a source from it? Would a listing of Metal:A Headbanger's Journey count? Desdinova 21:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I edited this entry a while back, in particular as regards the early 80s history. There was some discussion below about my part about cross-fertilization with punk rock and the NWOBHM, but it lost focus; let me restart that here and also bring in glam, which is not OK the way it is now, in my opinion. If I don't see any comments here in a week or so, I'll have a go at rewriting.
First a general comment: there is a lot of bickering about which band should be mentioned here and there. I think in a general entry like this, no one band should be favored, but there should be a link to a "list" page. The individual bands mentioned in this entry should only serve to characterize trends and developments.
So, why am I adamant that Judas Priest and Iron Maiden are the appropriate representatives of the NWOBHM? First, I am aware of the fact that Judas Priest is older than Iron Maiden, in fact this was part of the discussion back then (don't know how far back you guys read). I think most written metal histories would agree it makes sense to say both groups spearheaded the NWOBHM. I'll try to dig up some canonical reference, although unfortunately in this business many of the well-written ones are out of print. But it is clear from their albums; the NWOBHM was not just a musical direction, but a movement (lyrical themes, fashion etc). Just take a look at the Priest album British Steel and contrast it with Rocka Rolla, the Priest album that was brought up as an argument that Priest were not part of the NWOBHM. The two albums (BS and RR) might as well have been two different bands. The NWOBHM was characterized by short, energetic punk-like anthems (cf. Breaking the Law), as opposed to slow, soft epics of the 70s. It's true that Judas Priest are older than most other NWOBHM bands, but around 1980 they changed and updated their style, both visually and aurally, in a timely fashion to co-author this new and hugely influential chapter in metal history.
Probably a separate entry on the NWOBHM needs to be worked out to clarify this, but a summary should remain under this entry.
So, I'd be happy to defend this point of view to death; Iron Maiden and Judas Priest are the main representatives of the NWOBHM (Now Motorhead are brought up, they were an influence but not like Maiden and Priest). And it happened very quickly "around 1980", as I had written, but I'd be happy to be more specific, say 80-84 or so should delineate the "early 80s". This part can clearly be improved but it was criticized for the wrong reasons.
And about glam: Calling Motley Crue and company "the most popular" seems ridiculously LA-centric. Someone kept writing things like this also a few years ago. "Most popular" in terms of what? Record sales? Just take a look at the sales lists. Musical influences? Hardly -- that should be measured in terms of which later bands (mentioned in this entry) quote the supposed influence as their personal influence. Even bands with roots in LA like Metallica were not particularly influenced by glam, whereas the NHOBHM influence is a well-documented (e.g. their covers) and unmistakeable influence on e.g. their first album. In my opinion, for these reasons glam was not a particularly important part of metal history, and should be afforded a correspondingly small amount of space. Gustav Marcus 20:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Uriah Heep was the first band in the world who played "a progressive heavy rock". It was the father of the genre called "progressive metal" which was formed in the 80s. Heep should get a lot more attention because of this in wikipedia although it never sold as many records as the bands like Purple, Zeppelin or Sabbath did. The band's influence to metal music have been significant. Loijaa 13:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I see lots of historical data, but little coverage of the actual musical aspects of metal. Is anyone interested in writing this, or, if I write it, will it be accepted? I realize the article is long, but, being that there's already a long section on metal's classical influence, I think it would be worth it to detail some other aspects, such as atonality and the presence of a pedal tone.
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
All that really needs to be said here is that "nu-metal" is merely hard rock in disguise and not metal at all.
I typed it in expecting Tchaikovsky's 1812, Wellington's Victory, and the whole sub-class of obscure classical pieces nobody can ever neatly categorise as anything else. And I end up here, in spite of there only be being two instances of the world Battle in the entire page on heavy metal music (the only one of significance being the quoting of the influence of "battle hymns" - not even one line). Any thoughts on at least a disambiguation page, since a "list of battle music" page wouldn't be hard to set up. Graldensblud 23:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed the second Metallica example in the last paragraph of the themes section, simply because we do not need a list of every single metal song/album that has ever contributed "to the discussion of the state of affairs". I hope nobody minds.
Wikipedia FAQ clearly states no links to commercial sites. The people who keep reposting this link work for AMG and are serving their own interests and not the whole of the metal community or the Wikipedia editors. Anon October 18, 2006
The AMG article on heavy metal is meaningless as the same info is covered on the Heavy Metal page of Wikipedia. If anything was quoted or referenced, then it should be credited and listed in the Reference sections and not the External Links section. Better sites can be found that deal with the history of metal and metal bands and not some corporate site like AMG.
I've been watching this article for a while, and it seems like people are too focused on particular bands. Some major figures such as Sabbath, Priest, Maiden, and Metallica are candidates for more lengthy discussion, but couldn't minor figures just get put on to a list at the end of each history section? Or maybe put a link to a more detailed article with a list of bands? Anon August 14, 2006
"Plus, Rhapsody of Fire have used many classical string instruments and have created a new style which they call 'Film Score Metal'." This band does not need to be mentioned. Not only does the sentence sound illogical in the course of the paragraph, but Heavy Metal bands have been using string instruments and other classical elements long before 1997, when their debut came out. To me this a plug to get this band on the heavy metal history page so theyve been removed.-- Tomtheebomb 21:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Queen have been recognized as pioneers of heavy metal. Queen(1973), Queen II(1974), and Sheer Heart Attack(1974) are heavy metal. A Night at the Opera, News of the World, and others have heavy metal on them. Thay have mixed heavy metal with arena rock, glam rock, progressive rock, punk rock, and even opera. - Mtmtmt 05:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
is too short and really says nothing about the genre except that some people don't like it, list a few band names and mention the connection to grunge that only has to do with a few alt. metal and nu metal bands.
A spammer keeps adding this poor quality site to the links. If you have a look at their edits, their sole purpose on Wikipedia is adding this site to links of bands pages [1]. - Deathrocker 19:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
This has been bothering me for a while. The infobox would lead you to believe that classical music is an overarching influence on metal, but the text within the article doesn't back the claim up, beyond mentioning Ritchie Blackmore, Yngwie, Randy Rhoads and the tenuous Iron Maiden bit at the end of the section. maxcap 23:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
So, I've been having a hell of a time finding a reference for the 'Maiden Powerslave comparison in the last paragraph, can anyone help provide a source? maxcap 18:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
What?!? There's no Classical influences in metal. Classical music is restrained and controled. Romantic music is the previous type of music that you're looking for. JMan8088
I question the influence of classical music being pervasive enough to warrant it's inclusion as a primary influence in the genre box. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? maxcap 18:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
What is meant by "classical"?==== Metal has little to no classical influence, periodically speaking. It has LOADS of baroque influence as far as improvisation goes, and romantic influence in the general mindset, especially more symphonic metal bands.
maxcap - i reverted your change removing classical from the genre box because unfortunately a big chunk of the end of the article also got removed, which i assume was accidental. thought about removing the reference in the genrebox, but as i have no opinion on the matter, i figured i'd leave that to you-- Ultranaut 06:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps it should say European art music, or Western concert music, to avoid possible confusions about the word "classical"?
It's funny when people who talk about the influence of classical music on heavy metal music always cite the same 5-6 classical musicians. Even funnier is when people who like Nightwish, Children of Bodom, Therion, Stratovarius, Edguy... put in their mouth the names of Beethoven, Mozart, or Wagner... BTW, I find Judas Priest much better than Paganini. ;)
The solo at the end of "Let's Go Crazy" might be a swell bit of guitar virtuosity, but the song itself isn't metal. The most we can say is that the track is a bouncy pop song smacked with a tasteful edge. However, we can't expect anyone to argue that it is a "metal" song. Making a reference to it on the Heavy Metal entry is just baffling.
I think the two were significantly relevent enough during the 90s to warrant a mention in the article, and perhaps a mention of the high level of heavy metal influence in Alice In Chains music too.
It wouldn't really fit in with the nu-metal section, anybody have any ideas? - Deathrocker 20:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
To have the subgenres abreviated in the info box as so...
Heavy metal | |
---|---|
Stylistic origins | Psychedelic rock, European classical music and British blues |
Cultural origins | Late 1960s United Kingdom |
Typical instruments | Guitar — Bass — Drums |
Subgenres | |
Black -
Death —
Doom —
Folk —
Glam —
Gothic —
Industrial -
Neo-classical —
Power —
Progressive -
Symphonic metal —
Thrash ( complete list) | |
Regional scenes | |
Gothenburg — Britain — Bay Area — Florida | |
Other topics | |
Fashion — Genres - History — Bands — Umlaut |
If somebody is just reading through the article, it could be confusing, as it says "Folk" rather than "Folk metal" as a subgenre, and "Glam" rather than "Glam Metal", for example. Shouldn't it be fully typed out, to avoid confusion for those who are just reading this article? - Deathrocker 22:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the edit summary, You do realise
WP:HMM isn't an official authority on Wikipedia articles don't you?.. decisions for articles are made on their appropriate talkpages, after discussion... like HERE for example (that is what the talkpages are for).
WP:HMM is just an unofficial group for people on Wikipedia who say they like some form of metal music... and wish to work together on/create some articles.
You do not have to be part of WP:HMM to edit metal articles on here, its an open encyclopedia, not an (invisible) democracy to quote Jimbo Wales. If people who are members of WP:HMM wish to come over to this article and discuss the inclusion of certain information logically then, cool, lets see them do so.. a "yes, no" poll on some unofficial group not even on the articles talkpage doesn't have authority over articles.
In this articles info box it states "-- Note: Due to major debate that springs up from time to time and edits that might compromise the article's integrity, please discuss any major changes to this article on the Talk Page first. --" this was not done yet for such large sections to be blanked. - Deathrocker 23:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I lost some data in the process of archiving, and I'm not able to edit a previous version to move it over. Can anyone help? maxcap 00:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I'll sort it out... keeping more recent/crreunt discussions on this page, the rest archieved. - Deathrocker 01:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
OK... that should be better now, got the data back and kept some of the more current discussion on here. - Deathrocker 01:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This seems inaccurate. What about progressive metal, technical death, and many other VERY rhythmically complex subgenresgenres? Metal now contains some of the most rhythmically complex music in existence. Even in less complex subgenres, the rhythms are more complex than in many other forms of music - guitar rhythms, at least, in thrash, etc. I would say that the majority of metal is far more rhythmically complex than most mainstream rock!
We need to seriously discuss what should be in the external links section of this page. Links keep getting removed and inserted on a regular basis by both registered and unregistered users. WesleyDodds 00:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems that Gothenburg Metal now redirects to Melodic Death Metal, in my opinion we need something that seperates the early Scandavian Metal Scene from other early extreme ends, Perhaps we can fix Scandavian Death Metal to a more generic Scandavian Metal, which would include the early Norweigan Dark Metal and the Gothenburg Scene? I realize that the main page for this may not be the best place for the discussion, but the infobox includes Gotheburg as a region and its not longer a seperate page. Atechi 23:42 24 June 2006
Is the small part on eurovision all that necessary? Lordi are by no means an important part of heavy metal nor is the eurovision win a milestone in heavy metal.
-- N R S (talk to me, mail me or award me a barnstar) 13:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Maybe an section titled "awards" or "industry recognition" or something like that could be created that way the Eurovision thing could be integrated with othe awards of note. maxcap 21:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Lordi is hardly metal, they are more like hard rock or some other softer genre of music, I've listened to pretty much all their songs and they're kind of like GWAR only a lot softer, so I say, Lordi goes. Omicron91
Metal is a genre, heavy metal is a sub genre
Don't make us go through this debate again. :D (You see, quite a while ago there was a big argument about this exact thing. It took a long time for a decision to be reached, put it that way.) :P
-- FrasierC 21:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The last sentence in paragraph 4 under "Themes", is that supposed to be a quotation? If so, it's not structured very well. Shall that be changed?
Surely no definitive Heavy Metal article can ignore Manowar?
Manowars, admittedly self-proclaimed, crusade for "true metal" is merely an extrapolation of the natural antagonism which exponents of extreme art will often outwardly declare towards less challenging art forms. Manowar exemplified this artistic antagonism (expressed purely in terms that a teenager could understand) and indeed wore it as a badge of honour, or perhaps more relevantly, utilized it as a market differentiator. This, however, is only one of many interesting facets of a band which, even amongst heavy metal aficionados, inspires polar reactions in either direction. -- MichaelTurley 13:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Manowar is very influential on power metal and heavy metal. They even influenced Rhapsody of Fire (previously just, Rhapsody). But i still dont see why they should be mentioned Deimoss 02:00, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
They were plenty influencing, but I don't know if exactly essential. Fair to mention I assume. They also influenced the phrase "Other bands play Rammstein BURNS!" with their lyrics, "Other bands play Manowar KILL!" -- Trusader 00:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Heya I created a template page for the genre box. Could someone replace the one on the main page with it (my browser cuts the bottom of the page off).
Just click edit on this section and copy from here and paste to the main. Thanks! maxcap 18:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this section, with the following reasoning:
- This is an extremely new phenomenon; it is yet to be seen whether or not it will have any impact on the genre, especially to a degree that would warrant its placement in the main article.
- Many of those so-called "revival" bands that were mentioned do not "take influence from the original 1970s and 1980s pioneers of the genre" nor do they play in that style. Rather, the music itself is much more in line with the sound of stoner rock (or, sometimes, stoner metal) sounds, already established as a sub-genre/movement in its own right in the 1990s with artists like Fu Manchu and Kyuss. The Sword, for example, insist that Black Sabbath is not an influence [3]; the official Myspace page for Wolfmother cites zero heavy metal bands among their list of influences [4] and they openly claim that they were never influenced by any "'70s rock" band, nor have they ever intended to sound like one. [5]
- The leading bands in this so-called "heavy metal revival" wave come from outside the genre, with a pedigree based in the indie-rock or modern hardcore scenes. Their audiences, accordingly, can mainly be found within the indie-rock (and even hipster) crowds. The phenomenon they represent is not part of heavy metal as a genre and a movement, but has more to do with the general trend towards irony-laden retro-isms in the contemporary music industry as a whole. To illustrate by comparison - if bands like Franz Ferdinand or Bloc Party are not mentioned in the post-punk article (and rightly so!), neither should their "metal" counterparts be mentioned in the heavy metal one.
- In heavy metal circles, both the credibility of these bands and their "heavy metal" identity are widely contested. This sudden "revival" (much celebrated in certain media outlets) is generally seen as fiction, concocted by industry PR men and out-of-touch music critics for the purpose of having something to package and sell as "new", ignoring the fact that actual traditional heavy metal has never really ceased to flourish within the metal scene in its 30+ years of existence; for examples of this attitude and for further reading, see [6], [7], [8] (search for "boswell" especially), [9], [10].
Trends that have proved immensely more important and influential to heavy metal than this, like 1990's Scandinavian black metal or even the Gothenburg scene of melodic metal, are either mentioned in a sentence or two in the article, or not mentioned at all; in light of this - and of the reasons listed above - having this section is ludicrous. Unless there is a really convincing counter-argument, I posit that it should stay out of the article.
- 80.178.76.86 18:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Its happening here and now of course it deserves a mention, as for a "lack of impact or notability" Wolfmother have charted on the Billboard higher end of the Billboard top hundred and on the UK and Canadian chart, and other bands have won awards in notable rock magazine such as Classic Rock, its a revival its happening now... and not in some obscure movement either. As for influences...
Take a look at Wolfmother's article, they have cited the orignal 70s metal bands as their influences as have The Answer, etc to dismiss them all as "stoner rock" when their music doesn't sound like that is ignorance. They just probably get tired of pencil neck journalists repeating the same question over and over, "what are your influences?" is right up there with "how did you get the band name"? The movement also has had full articles on and mentions in many magazines such as Classic Rock, Guitar World, and Revolver [11]... where it is sometimes named "Hipster metal".
And as for claiming scenes such as " Scandinavian black metal or even the Gothenburg scene of melodic metal," is more important to metal shows an extreme bias, and POV towards an extreme metal preference, those genres in all their existance did not have the comerical notability these current Trad Revivalists have. They are also very, very distant subgenres of genuine metal and sonically closer to hardcore rather than anything to do with heavy metal ala Sabbath, Zeppelin, Blue Cheer, Deep Purple, etc, while this Trad Revival is relevent musically and notability wise to an article on heavy metal music. - Deathrocker 11:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Click on the link after "Revolver" there is a copy of one of the articles - Deathrocker 14:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've used the Revolver article source which mentions Wolfmother, Witch & Illuminati. And a couple of others including a VH1 source to vertify the information. - Deathrocker 20:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I've heard The Sword, and it sounds like classic metal to me. And what makes you all think that the music is "ironic"? It doesn't seem ironic to me. It just rocks, and has fantasy elements. Be open to new things - you sound like a bunch of close-minded geezers.
in the section dealing with the development of metal in the 1980's, why has death and thrash metal been mentioned whist doom metal been left out? Nemesis, Pentagram, St. Vitus and WItchfinder General were produceing doom *very* early in the 1980's! Furthermore, Doom may be argued to be one of *the* first directions metal took (Black Sabbath) when it was in its 1969 fledling state (see Black Sabbath's debut album with eponymous song - its not even written in pentatonic or hexatonic blues scales!) Doom metal remains a vibrant style today, and developed (esp. in the UK) through the 1990's (eg. Paradise Lost, Anathema, Count Raven, My Dying Bride, Type O Negative etc.)
Why we are on the topic of forgotten sub-styles, where is the technical metal/techno-thrash (eg. Voivod, Watchtower?) The discussion of Black Metal seems cursory at best, and is in fact completely absent from the discussion on developments during the 1990's, and from the section on cultural influence - most insufficient considering the church burning and murder crime wave that began in Norway in the early 90's: This became international news.
I myself tire rapidly of obsessive and idiotic over-taxonymising of music and art in general, but these are well-recognized and influential developments in Heavy Metal, and not just the preserve of DJ lexicon or a handful of obscure bands.
"Forgotten sub-styles"? When did Doom, or any real part of Metal roll over and die? Dace59 13:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I meant forgotten from *this* Wikkipedia article for goodness sake - couldn't you ascertain that from both the current context (ie an article discussion area!) and from what I was overtly arguing for!?!?
Dusksailor 15:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
As it stands right now, Mercyful Fate is only mentioned as the originators of the corpse paint in the underground scene. Anyone into the underground scene in 81-84 knows that Mercyful Fate was one of the most important bands, along with Venom and Celtic Frost. The barrage of riffs, shifting song structures and strong rythem section is what spawned Thrash Metal in the first place. The Neo-classical guitar work raised the bar for guitarists everywhere! King Diamond's shifting 7 octave vocal range raised the bar for metal vocalists. Everyone knows they were Metallica's ( And Megadeth's ) biggest influence. Their heavy Satanic lyrics at the time were new, unmatched ( and legit ) and heavily inspired black and death metal. Also, I'll go out on a limb and say King Diamond's extreme way of screaming falsetto is what created the Black Metal guttural screech ( along with Chronos and Tom Warrior's vocal style ). Surely, Mercyful Fate deserve a atleast a small paragraph to themselves.
Dusksailor 15:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, I've followed Metallica since the beginning and I've heard them say countless times Mercyful Fate was their biggest influence ( I thought their Mercyful Fate Medley on Garage INC. and them playing it in their live sets was proof enough? ) , but Diamond Head and Motorhead were definitly up there too. I've actually heard them say Iron Maiden wasen't a big influence but that's not relevant right now. I know King was mimicking the NWOBHM style in some songs, however in Nuns have no fun, in the line "They never fail" he does a proto-black/death style growl, and that's the earliest of that kind of growl I could find. I believe that the trio of King, Warrior and Cronos is what spawned the black/death metal style.
I've heard King has a 7 octave range many times, but I can't confirm it. Do you know the exact number? I can never find a confirmation, usually people cite it's 5-7. I know there are more inspiration guitarists that predate Mercyful Fate, however listening to their early demos and first two records, I can definitly see alot of inspirational in the guitar work as a whole - especially the riffs. Mercyful Fate has got to be the most important link between NWOBHM and thrash.
It seems evident to me that Neo-classical and folk metal should both be listed as fusion genres. Also, I think that the sub-genres should be limited to the great 8 of classic, doom, death, gothic, thrash, power, progressive and black, as of now. Groove metal, rapcore, etc. are dubious subgenres at best that have not been established to the extent that, say, melodic death, Viking metal, etc. have. In addition, speed metal is not a real genre. I've usually heard it used to mean thrash metal, and "speed" is simply not accurate, because much of thrash is NOT particularly fast. A lot of Metallica, especially. (Walri)
Speed Metal "kind of" does exist... It is quite visible that it would split into both THRASH and POWER metal. Just look at the early, early Blind Guardian stuff, or even Motorhead and Judas Priest. Granted those bands moved out of that. I don't agree with Gamma Ray being classed under Speed Metal though, they're definitely what I would call Power Metal. Vegetaman 19:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Alright, seems there was a misunderstanding of what I thought the term referred to. Still, I don't think it is a major sub-genre. I would consider Motorhead to be "Classic" metal.
Dusksailor 14:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The claims contained in the sentence..."the late-70s cross-fertilization of heavy metal with fast-paced, youthful punk rock (e.g. Sex Pistols), culminating in the New Wave of British Heavy Metal around the year 1980, led by bands like Judas Priest and Iron Maiden." is fallacious for three reasons. Firstly, NWOBHM is NOT regarded as being a product of Punk "cross-fertilization", as its origins predated the Punk movement's rise in the mid-late 1970's. (It is ususally understood that NWOBHM and punk influenced one another during the 1980's and this exchange of musical ideas gave birth to Thrash Metal). Secondly, the NWOBHM did not "culminate" "around the year 1980", but rather somewhat after that. (In fact, Iron maiden had only released a demo, a few singles and their first album by 1980.) Thirdly, Judas Priest, stricly speaking were NOT a NWOBHM band at all, and predate this movement by years: they released a 2-track demo in 1973, their first album ("Rocka Rolla") in 1974, and according to Mark Hale (1993) they formed way back 1969. Nothing New Wave about Judas Priest - they were well ahead of the breaker, recording back in the Lommi-Osbourne-Butler-Ward Black Sabbath period, years before the Punk craze had even begun. Dusksailor 14:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Ha Ha ! Didn't you guys understand ? The way Dusksailor is going about things, it is pretty obvious that he is Leyasu's sockpuppet. Leyasu is banned, so he comes here in disguise and pretends to reason and dicuss hiding his original tendency to vandalise and his vanity. Please report and ban this user.
-- Leyasu Sockpuppet Killer 16:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
A complete retraction and apology is expected thank you very much Mr/Ms "Leyasu Sockpuppet Killer", and pronto. Dusksailor 17:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Dusksailor 12:57, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, since that account has been blocked you might never get one, but I can understand you still wanting an apology from that user if they're registered a new name. But if they haven't come back, or just ignoring this, sadly you won't get one. Dace59 13:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
This is incredible. this music's name is "metal". and "heavy metal" is one of its subgenres like trash metal,black metal,etc. What is going on here? somebody should fix that. it is a big fault for a site like wikipedia!
it was always called "heavy metal for 20 years until the fans became pedantic about classification and "-metal" became a suffix (i.e. thrash metal, death metal). "metal" is just an abbreviation. 67.172.61.222 20:39, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Iron Maiden have not broken up, yet this article implies that they are on a reunion tour. - Enzo Dragon 23:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks -- Ling.Nut 15:48, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Please remember that Fair Use images should only be used as a last resort where critical commentary is required, not just to "illustrate" an album anytime it is mentioned. Only one image on this page had an explicit relevance to the text. Thanks, ed g2s • talk 16:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe we should consider adding some musical samples to the article like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_music has.
I don't know how to encode a file in ogg format, but would be willing to contribute. I think I still have that Korn song around here somewhere from when I owned it. One suggestion though: Black Sabbath would be a much better choice for "origins" and Slayer would be a better choice for "Underground metal." Metallica were much more known at that point than Slayer and stylistically were quite different from everyone else; something like "Angel of Death" was a bit moe typical for thrash at that time. Ours18 00:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
How is Metallica "Underground metal"? Inhumer 00:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Could there be a cross over between grunge and metal? - User:Cronus (band) Yes, like Seether, but they are post-grunge, alice in chains is metal at times APACOlypse27 00:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, why were the characteristics removed? I liked them, and I see no reason for their removal. Lehi 02:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
SHOCK ROCK?
The Steppenwolf song is frequently cited when discussing the origins of the term Heavy Metal, but it seems pretty clear from the context of the lyrics that this term is referring to motorcycles. FWIW. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.23.168.20 ( talk • contribs) 12:16, 3 December 2006 (UTC).
I was reading an article that described a band as "ethno metal" I clicked on "ethno metal" in the article and it redirected here. But there is no mention of ethno metal in the article. Can someone explain what it is, and why it redirects to this page when there's no explanation? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.245.138.168 ( talk • contribs) 06:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC).
Please set it up for creation/review in the WikiProject:Metal site, tnx User:Jman8088. December 14, 2006. 5:38 pm.
Someone deleted a list of bands I had created on the proto-metal page, which to me was foolish. The proto-metal article is definately needed, because everyone keeps adding minor bands to the Origins section, and it was getting too damn long. I revived the proto-metal list, and moved all references to bands other than Sabbath, Zeppelin, and Deep Purple in the main heavy metal article to the proto-metal page.
Please discuss any problems here before reverting. Thanks.
I'm kind of surprised there's no mention of the general lack of critical acclaim of metal. I love metal and it seems many critics don't think much of it (ex. Allmusicguide having Black/Death metal as a genre (something most fans would be highly contentious about), or a site like pitchfork focusing on independent releases that never reviews metal but will review multi-platinum rap albums.) Oderus 02:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I know that he says he started the trend, but could we get a source from it? Would a listing of Metal:A Headbanger's Journey count? Desdinova 21:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I edited this entry a while back, in particular as regards the early 80s history. There was some discussion below about my part about cross-fertilization with punk rock and the NWOBHM, but it lost focus; let me restart that here and also bring in glam, which is not OK the way it is now, in my opinion. If I don't see any comments here in a week or so, I'll have a go at rewriting.
First a general comment: there is a lot of bickering about which band should be mentioned here and there. I think in a general entry like this, no one band should be favored, but there should be a link to a "list" page. The individual bands mentioned in this entry should only serve to characterize trends and developments.
So, why am I adamant that Judas Priest and Iron Maiden are the appropriate representatives of the NWOBHM? First, I am aware of the fact that Judas Priest is older than Iron Maiden, in fact this was part of the discussion back then (don't know how far back you guys read). I think most written metal histories would agree it makes sense to say both groups spearheaded the NWOBHM. I'll try to dig up some canonical reference, although unfortunately in this business many of the well-written ones are out of print. But it is clear from their albums; the NWOBHM was not just a musical direction, but a movement (lyrical themes, fashion etc). Just take a look at the Priest album British Steel and contrast it with Rocka Rolla, the Priest album that was brought up as an argument that Priest were not part of the NWOBHM. The two albums (BS and RR) might as well have been two different bands. The NWOBHM was characterized by short, energetic punk-like anthems (cf. Breaking the Law), as opposed to slow, soft epics of the 70s. It's true that Judas Priest are older than most other NWOBHM bands, but around 1980 they changed and updated their style, both visually and aurally, in a timely fashion to co-author this new and hugely influential chapter in metal history.
Probably a separate entry on the NWOBHM needs to be worked out to clarify this, but a summary should remain under this entry.
So, I'd be happy to defend this point of view to death; Iron Maiden and Judas Priest are the main representatives of the NWOBHM (Now Motorhead are brought up, they were an influence but not like Maiden and Priest). And it happened very quickly "around 1980", as I had written, but I'd be happy to be more specific, say 80-84 or so should delineate the "early 80s". This part can clearly be improved but it was criticized for the wrong reasons.
And about glam: Calling Motley Crue and company "the most popular" seems ridiculously LA-centric. Someone kept writing things like this also a few years ago. "Most popular" in terms of what? Record sales? Just take a look at the sales lists. Musical influences? Hardly -- that should be measured in terms of which later bands (mentioned in this entry) quote the supposed influence as their personal influence. Even bands with roots in LA like Metallica were not particularly influenced by glam, whereas the NHOBHM influence is a well-documented (e.g. their covers) and unmistakeable influence on e.g. their first album. In my opinion, for these reasons glam was not a particularly important part of metal history, and should be afforded a correspondingly small amount of space. Gustav Marcus 20:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Uriah Heep was the first band in the world who played "a progressive heavy rock". It was the father of the genre called "progressive metal" which was formed in the 80s. Heep should get a lot more attention because of this in wikipedia although it never sold as many records as the bands like Purple, Zeppelin or Sabbath did. The band's influence to metal music have been significant. Loijaa 13:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I see lots of historical data, but little coverage of the actual musical aspects of metal. Is anyone interested in writing this, or, if I write it, will it be accepted? I realize the article is long, but, being that there's already a long section on metal's classical influence, I think it would be worth it to detail some other aspects, such as atonality and the presence of a pedal tone.