This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Heavy metal music article. This is
not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Heavy metal music is a
former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check
the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Metal, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
heavy metal music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MetalWikipedia:WikiProject MetalTemplate:WikiProject MetalHeavy Metal articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Rock music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Rock music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Rock musicWikipedia:WikiProject Rock musicTemplate:WikiProject Rock musicRock music articles
Heavy metal music is within the scope of the Music genres task force of the Music project, a user driven attempt to clean up and standardize
music genre articles on Wikipedia. Please visit the task force
guidelines page for ideas on how to structure a genre article and help us
assess and improve genre articles to
good article status.Music/Music genres task forceWikipedia:WikiProject Music/Music genres task forceTemplate:WikiProject Music/Music genres task forcemusic genre articles
A1:
Reliable sources support the view that bands like Led Zeppelin were considered heavy metal in their time and were major pioneers of the genre in its early stages. There has been a long-standing
consensus to include an explanation of their role in the article.
Q2: Why is
hard rock not one of the stylistic origins in the infobox.
A2: Hard rock and heavy metal were used interchangeably for at least a decade, therefore one is not the progenitor of the other.
Q3: Didn't Black Sabbath invent heavy metal, for example by adopting the
tritone?
A3: Black Sabbath made an important contribution to the development of heavy metal, but reliable sources indicate that they were only one of a number of bands that contributed to that process.
Q4: Aren't metal and heavy metal different genres?
A4: Reliable sources indicate that metal is just an abbreviation for heavy metal. The terms are sometimes used in different contexts, but it would be confusing to have separate Wikipedia articles about what is essentially the same genre.
I think "Metal Music" should be separated from "Heavy Metal Music"
Heavy Metal really is a subgenre of metal - they should not really be conflated as they are at the moment. Heavy Metal exclusively refers to the style of metal music that bands like Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, and Metallica during their eponymous album phase played. "Heavy Metal Music" should not include death metal, black metal, doom metal bands, etc.
76.99.120.109 (
talk) 23:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)reply
We go by what reliable source say...and they don't say that.
Sergecross73msg me 23:47, 16 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Which source DOES say that, then? Also many metal genres aren't a form of rock music, but the style "heavy metal" largely is - hence a separation would indeed be useful.
76.99.120.109 (
talk) 01:08, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm confused. Are you suggesting that sources like this don't exist? Thats preposterous. I did the most basic Google search and after 5 seconds found a
WP:RSMUSIC- approved source
"Heavy Metal 101: The History of Death Metal". I'm sure the rest could be just as easily proved. This is a
Featured Article after all - which doesn't mean it's perfect...but it does making massive oversights going unnoticed rather unlikely.
Sergecross73msg me 03:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
would honestly agree. "Metal" is the umbrella term. "Heavy Metal" is the genre bands like Priest, Maiden etc play. At least thats the most common interpretation --
FMSky (
talk) 09:22, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Yeah we'll need the work to be done based on sources before anything else happens.
Popcornfud (
talk) 11:48, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Exactly. And even with sources, I believe this would be difficult to ever realistically discern - "heavy metal" and "metal" are commonly used interchangeably. (The article even addresses this currently.)
Sergecross73msg me 12:08, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
All three of these are unreliable sources. — Czello(
music) 15:45, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
You're an experienced editor FMSky, so I'm rather shocked you would suggest that Reddit would be a usable source on Wikipedia. Are you really suggesting we restructure a Featured Article for parity with a Reddit group?? Seriously?
Sergecross73msg me 16:41, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
I know and i'm not suggesting them as sources lol, i'm just saying that people in general (in real life or the internet) call the genre Metal most often, and its imo the
WP:COMMONNAME--
FMSky (
talk) 16:48, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, that part is closer to the point I was saying - the two terms are often used interchangeably. The article is likely at the
heavy metal music article title and not any other variant because of
WP:NATDAB reasons. But none of the things either one of us have talked about offer any sort of valid support for the split the IP is suggesting.
Sergecross73msg me 17:32, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Well I respectfully disagree - heavy metal may have been used as a catch all for "metal" in general, maybe forty years ago, but back then hard rock and acid rock were also used synonymously with the term, too. Even in this article, it says this. In this article it says that Gene Simmons does not consider Metallica to be heavy metal (I didn't check when those statements were made) and frankly I would agree with him (Metallica from 1983 until 1988, that is) - but it's undeniable that they are a metal band in general.
If you look at the different languages tab here, you'll see that many foreign Wikipedias do in fact differentiate heavy metal as a subgenre of metal in general, including but no t limited to the excellent German Wikipedia, which has an article for both "Metal" [music], and "heavy metal," and that this article, heavy metal music, redirects the page to the "Metal" page, not the "heavy metal," as well as the other languages that make this distinction.
76.99.120.109 (
talk) 18:07, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
I provided no new information here, the sources that state hard rock and acid rock and whatever used to be used synonymously with heavy metal are literally in this article (if it's sourced) lmao
76.99.120.109 (
talk) 18:18, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
You can "lmao" all you want, but you're not going to persuade your way into a
WP:CONSENSUS to change without better detailing sourcing that shows that your stance is not only supported, but more prevalent than the current approach. You're a very long ways from that currently.
Sergecross73msg me 18:40, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Okay I came here quite politely with a popular contention about this article, and this whole time you have been quite rude and frankly condescending. If you want to ask me to provide sources for this potential change, you don't need to be so patronizing, especially as an admin for this site. Furthermore, you seem to be completely unreceptive to IDEA of a change here, and I don't think any source would be able to persuade you to inasmuch as even looking into this query...
I don't care that much about this to deal with this attitude. Most people have the nuance to understand that Wikipedia has conflated the metal umbrella with the heavy metal subgenre. It's not a good look, to be honest, but now I see why no one has had the nerve yet to make this change.
The German and Hebrew Wikipedias have this right. The English does not.
This article is one of many that I maintain or mediate because it's a magnet for passersby editors to try to shape to their personal opinions rather than adhering to
WP:V and
WP:RS. Your proposal looks like that in a lot of ways. Maybe you're a victim of being grouped into all of that, but it's hard for me to believe that when you appear to be in multiple disputes related to your refusal to follow policy and guidelines. (Like the one currently ongoing on your own talk page.) You're not going to get anywhere if you refuse to learn how this website works, and that's on you, not me.
Sergecross73msg me 12:17, 18 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I'll agree with that. I realise that this requires extensive work with the sources. The state of wikipedia regarding metal categorisation is like the state of 2004, which is more confusing than useful compared to the rest of the internet. Almost all the information collected on this topic is from sources older than 15 years. Since then, so many genres have evolved and the history of previous genres has been thoroughly described that the distinction between " derived from" and " subspecies of" has become more necessary and meaningful. Obviously, heavy metal (aka traditional heavy metal) is its own thing with its own hierarchy that has spawned a branch of distinct plain metal. Calling the many types of extreme metal subspecies heavy metal is something that rather confuses the reader. So I would definitely support it if someone would start this effort. By the way, on many European wikipedias this situation has long been solved.
Solidest (
talk) 13:43, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
It's been almost half a year and we haven't even had a single person provide evidence that high level reliable sources can even
verify this, let alone find someone knowledgeable and motivated enough to take on such a massive undertaking.
Sergecross73msg me 14:05, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Add the Oxford comma to the lists of 3 contained in this article.
PlantRulx (
talk) 22:32, 13 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Not done:MOS:SERIAL the Oxford comma is not required, as long as it is consistant within the article.
RudolfRed (
talk) 00:53, 14 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Metal is it's own genre, not another rock subgenre. Please change.
Your opinion isn't shared by music critics and musicologists.
Binksternet (
talk) 16:19, 15 September 2023 (UTC)reply
We go by the stances of professional music publications, not anonymous opinions on the internet.
Sergecross73msg me 18:04, 15 September 2023 (UTC)reply
"Extreme heterosexualist ideology"
"Attendees of metal concerts do not dance in the usual sense. It has been argued that this is due to the music's largely male audience and "extreme heterosexualist ideology".
What is this statement, besides ridicilous?
Wolfram1987 (
talk) 19:55, 15 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Looking at the references, it appears to be referenced from the writings of published author
Deena Weinstein (PhD).
Sergecross73msg me 20:15, 15 December 2023 (UTC)reply
"Largely male" is fair, but to describe a subculture where Judas Priest and Queen are as revered as they are in metal circles as "extreme heterosexualist", well...Maybe it "has been argued", but including that in the article seems like giving it undue weight. Rob Halfords own wiki-page mentions that "Halford has previously spoken about the level of acceptance of his sexuality within the metal community, calling it accepting and inclusive.", and on the subject matter I'm prepared to say that "being Rob Halford" lends more credibility to speak on this particular subject than does "has a PhD in Sociology".
Wolfram1987 (
talk) 21:18, 15 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The commentary is in reference to the genre in a general sense. Anecdotes from a non-heterosexual frontman don't discredit it on a whole. You'd be better off trying to add a counterpoint from Halford than trying to delete the criticism wholesale.
Sergecross73msg me 21:48, 15 December 2023 (UTC)reply
"Morbid Angel adopted neo-fascist imagery"
This is ridiculous. What is this even in reference to? I checked the source and it doesn't even bother to cite any sources or even name any examples. This should be deleted.
73.227.19.245 (
talk) 15:01, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
It does cite a source, it cites the book Lords of Chaos (which is, to be fair, known to be lenient with accuracy). The quote from the book is "Floridians Morbid Angel began donning paramilitary clothes for their live appearances, courting a neo-fascist demeanor, and reinforcing it with inopportune and illiberal comments in magazine interviews". Above this quote is a photo of David Vincent performing on stage in an all black paramilitary uniform with an arm band.
Issan Sumisu (
talk) 15:54, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Heavy metal music article. This is
not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Heavy metal music is a
former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check
the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Metal, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
heavy metal music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MetalWikipedia:WikiProject MetalTemplate:WikiProject MetalHeavy Metal articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Rock music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Rock music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Rock musicWikipedia:WikiProject Rock musicTemplate:WikiProject Rock musicRock music articles
Heavy metal music is within the scope of the Music genres task force of the Music project, a user driven attempt to clean up and standardize
music genre articles on Wikipedia. Please visit the task force
guidelines page for ideas on how to structure a genre article and help us
assess and improve genre articles to
good article status.Music/Music genres task forceWikipedia:WikiProject Music/Music genres task forceTemplate:WikiProject Music/Music genres task forcemusic genre articles
A1:
Reliable sources support the view that bands like Led Zeppelin were considered heavy metal in their time and were major pioneers of the genre in its early stages. There has been a long-standing
consensus to include an explanation of their role in the article.
Q2: Why is
hard rock not one of the stylistic origins in the infobox.
A2: Hard rock and heavy metal were used interchangeably for at least a decade, therefore one is not the progenitor of the other.
Q3: Didn't Black Sabbath invent heavy metal, for example by adopting the
tritone?
A3: Black Sabbath made an important contribution to the development of heavy metal, but reliable sources indicate that they were only one of a number of bands that contributed to that process.
Q4: Aren't metal and heavy metal different genres?
A4: Reliable sources indicate that metal is just an abbreviation for heavy metal. The terms are sometimes used in different contexts, but it would be confusing to have separate Wikipedia articles about what is essentially the same genre.
I think "Metal Music" should be separated from "Heavy Metal Music"
Heavy Metal really is a subgenre of metal - they should not really be conflated as they are at the moment. Heavy Metal exclusively refers to the style of metal music that bands like Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, and Metallica during their eponymous album phase played. "Heavy Metal Music" should not include death metal, black metal, doom metal bands, etc.
76.99.120.109 (
talk) 23:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)reply
We go by what reliable source say...and they don't say that.
Sergecross73msg me 23:47, 16 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Which source DOES say that, then? Also many metal genres aren't a form of rock music, but the style "heavy metal" largely is - hence a separation would indeed be useful.
76.99.120.109 (
talk) 01:08, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
I'm confused. Are you suggesting that sources like this don't exist? Thats preposterous. I did the most basic Google search and after 5 seconds found a
WP:RSMUSIC- approved source
"Heavy Metal 101: The History of Death Metal". I'm sure the rest could be just as easily proved. This is a
Featured Article after all - which doesn't mean it's perfect...but it does making massive oversights going unnoticed rather unlikely.
Sergecross73msg me 03:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
would honestly agree. "Metal" is the umbrella term. "Heavy Metal" is the genre bands like Priest, Maiden etc play. At least thats the most common interpretation --
FMSky (
talk) 09:22, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Yeah we'll need the work to be done based on sources before anything else happens.
Popcornfud (
talk) 11:48, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Exactly. And even with sources, I believe this would be difficult to ever realistically discern - "heavy metal" and "metal" are commonly used interchangeably. (The article even addresses this currently.)
Sergecross73msg me 12:08, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
All three of these are unreliable sources. — Czello(
music) 15:45, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
You're an experienced editor FMSky, so I'm rather shocked you would suggest that Reddit would be a usable source on Wikipedia. Are you really suggesting we restructure a Featured Article for parity with a Reddit group?? Seriously?
Sergecross73msg me 16:41, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
I know and i'm not suggesting them as sources lol, i'm just saying that people in general (in real life or the internet) call the genre Metal most often, and its imo the
WP:COMMONNAME--
FMSky (
talk) 16:48, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, that part is closer to the point I was saying - the two terms are often used interchangeably. The article is likely at the
heavy metal music article title and not any other variant because of
WP:NATDAB reasons. But none of the things either one of us have talked about offer any sort of valid support for the split the IP is suggesting.
Sergecross73msg me 17:32, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Well I respectfully disagree - heavy metal may have been used as a catch all for "metal" in general, maybe forty years ago, but back then hard rock and acid rock were also used synonymously with the term, too. Even in this article, it says this. In this article it says that Gene Simmons does not consider Metallica to be heavy metal (I didn't check when those statements were made) and frankly I would agree with him (Metallica from 1983 until 1988, that is) - but it's undeniable that they are a metal band in general.
If you look at the different languages tab here, you'll see that many foreign Wikipedias do in fact differentiate heavy metal as a subgenre of metal in general, including but no t limited to the excellent German Wikipedia, which has an article for both "Metal" [music], and "heavy metal," and that this article, heavy metal music, redirects the page to the "Metal" page, not the "heavy metal," as well as the other languages that make this distinction.
76.99.120.109 (
talk) 18:07, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
I provided no new information here, the sources that state hard rock and acid rock and whatever used to be used synonymously with heavy metal are literally in this article (if it's sourced) lmao
76.99.120.109 (
talk) 18:18, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
You can "lmao" all you want, but you're not going to persuade your way into a
WP:CONSENSUS to change without better detailing sourcing that shows that your stance is not only supported, but more prevalent than the current approach. You're a very long ways from that currently.
Sergecross73msg me 18:40, 17 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Okay I came here quite politely with a popular contention about this article, and this whole time you have been quite rude and frankly condescending. If you want to ask me to provide sources for this potential change, you don't need to be so patronizing, especially as an admin for this site. Furthermore, you seem to be completely unreceptive to IDEA of a change here, and I don't think any source would be able to persuade you to inasmuch as even looking into this query...
I don't care that much about this to deal with this attitude. Most people have the nuance to understand that Wikipedia has conflated the metal umbrella with the heavy metal subgenre. It's not a good look, to be honest, but now I see why no one has had the nerve yet to make this change.
The German and Hebrew Wikipedias have this right. The English does not.
This article is one of many that I maintain or mediate because it's a magnet for passersby editors to try to shape to their personal opinions rather than adhering to
WP:V and
WP:RS. Your proposal looks like that in a lot of ways. Maybe you're a victim of being grouped into all of that, but it's hard for me to believe that when you appear to be in multiple disputes related to your refusal to follow policy and guidelines. (Like the one currently ongoing on your own talk page.) You're not going to get anywhere if you refuse to learn how this website works, and that's on you, not me.
Sergecross73msg me 12:17, 18 April 2023 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I'll agree with that. I realise that this requires extensive work with the sources. The state of wikipedia regarding metal categorisation is like the state of 2004, which is more confusing than useful compared to the rest of the internet. Almost all the information collected on this topic is from sources older than 15 years. Since then, so many genres have evolved and the history of previous genres has been thoroughly described that the distinction between " derived from" and " subspecies of" has become more necessary and meaningful. Obviously, heavy metal (aka traditional heavy metal) is its own thing with its own hierarchy that has spawned a branch of distinct plain metal. Calling the many types of extreme metal subspecies heavy metal is something that rather confuses the reader. So I would definitely support it if someone would start this effort. By the way, on many European wikipedias this situation has long been solved.
Solidest (
talk) 13:43, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
It's been almost half a year and we haven't even had a single person provide evidence that high level reliable sources can even
verify this, let alone find someone knowledgeable and motivated enough to take on such a massive undertaking.
Sergecross73msg me 14:05, 28 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Add the Oxford comma to the lists of 3 contained in this article.
PlantRulx (
talk) 22:32, 13 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Not done:MOS:SERIAL the Oxford comma is not required, as long as it is consistant within the article.
RudolfRed (
talk) 00:53, 14 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Metal is it's own genre, not another rock subgenre. Please change.
Your opinion isn't shared by music critics and musicologists.
Binksternet (
talk) 16:19, 15 September 2023 (UTC)reply
We go by the stances of professional music publications, not anonymous opinions on the internet.
Sergecross73msg me 18:04, 15 September 2023 (UTC)reply
"Extreme heterosexualist ideology"
"Attendees of metal concerts do not dance in the usual sense. It has been argued that this is due to the music's largely male audience and "extreme heterosexualist ideology".
What is this statement, besides ridicilous?
Wolfram1987 (
talk) 19:55, 15 December 2023 (UTC)reply
Looking at the references, it appears to be referenced from the writings of published author
Deena Weinstein (PhD).
Sergecross73msg me 20:15, 15 December 2023 (UTC)reply
"Largely male" is fair, but to describe a subculture where Judas Priest and Queen are as revered as they are in metal circles as "extreme heterosexualist", well...Maybe it "has been argued", but including that in the article seems like giving it undue weight. Rob Halfords own wiki-page mentions that "Halford has previously spoken about the level of acceptance of his sexuality within the metal community, calling it accepting and inclusive.", and on the subject matter I'm prepared to say that "being Rob Halford" lends more credibility to speak on this particular subject than does "has a PhD in Sociology".
Wolfram1987 (
talk) 21:18, 15 December 2023 (UTC)reply
The commentary is in reference to the genre in a general sense. Anecdotes from a non-heterosexual frontman don't discredit it on a whole. You'd be better off trying to add a counterpoint from Halford than trying to delete the criticism wholesale.
Sergecross73msg me 21:48, 15 December 2023 (UTC)reply
"Morbid Angel adopted neo-fascist imagery"
This is ridiculous. What is this even in reference to? I checked the source and it doesn't even bother to cite any sources or even name any examples. This should be deleted.
73.227.19.245 (
talk) 15:01, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply
It does cite a source, it cites the book Lords of Chaos (which is, to be fair, known to be lenient with accuracy). The quote from the book is "Floridians Morbid Angel began donning paramilitary clothes for their live appearances, courting a neo-fascist demeanor, and reinforcing it with inopportune and illiberal comments in magazine interviews". Above this quote is a photo of David Vincent performing on stage in an all black paramilitary uniform with an arm band.
Issan Sumisu (
talk) 15:54, 13 April 2024 (UTC)reply