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BetacommandBot ( talk) 23:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
i think "heathen" more falls into an insult category than a proper term; i think its offensive to the actual believers of Germanic Neopaganism. what i'm getting to is this: is "heathenism" a proper term or just a term used by regilious nuts who think theyre always right? its just that the use of those kinds of words could maybe be offensive to neopagans, and points-of-view arent supposed to be included in articles(i think) 69.229.8.83 ( talk) 03:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Now that a lot of 19th century Icelandic texts have been digitized it's become a lot easier to search for early uses of words. Here's the earliest I can find for Ásatrú:
In this case we have the genitive with the suffixed article, Ásatrúarinnar ("of the Ásatrú"). Haukur ( talk) 22:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
It is to this day common in Iceland, parts of Germany, England, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, to worship land-spirits and elves. It is relevant to modern day Asatru, because it i an unbroken, but evolved, tradition.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Odinsjarl ( talk • contribs)
Please provide a reference discussing animism in Asatru explicitly. If Asatru is an, "unbroken, but evolved, tradition", so is any other neopagan nrm. Please stop citing random eddaic stories in support of your claims regarding Asatru. Asatru is a product of 1970s counterculture in Iceland and the Anglosphere. You need to provide evidence of the practices of these circles of 1970s counter-culture people, not of the Vikings. We have a dedicated Norse paganism article for the historical religion. Of course it is a truism that reconstructionists will try to do whatever they conclude has been done in the historical religion. The point is that you need to cite evidence on what they conclude and how they implement it in a modern setting.
Fwiiw, I know about Icelandic Elf folklore. I have even visited the Icelandic Elf School once. The Icelanders are being facetious about their alleged belief in elves. Either way this is irrelevant to Asatru, since if the Icelandic population in general believes in elves, it isn't significant if the 0.4% Icelandic neopagans believe in elves. Your claim is that animism is more widespread in Asatru than in other neopagan tradtions. You have failed to present any sort of reference for that. I have also grave doubts as to your claim that "It is to this day common in Iceland, parts of Germany, England, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, to worship land-spirits and elves." You pick the Germanic-speaking countries of Europe. What is your evidence that the "worship land-spirits" is in any way more pronounced in these countries than in, say, rural Pakistan, rural Poland or rural Rwanda? -- dab (𒁳) 14:54, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I am not disputing that belief in elves etc. may be connected to animism, nor that there is animism in European folklore. There certainly is, as in any other folklore, or indeed in any of the world's cultures. I would clearly count animism in this broad sense as a human cultural universal. You may count yourself as an animist if you have ever caught yourself swearing at a computer or talking in pleading tones to a car that refused to start.
Precisely since "animism" is so universal, it would need excellent references to back up a claim that Germanic Neopagans are somehow more animistic than other neopagans, or indeed than Christians or atheists. -- dab (𒁳) 07:49, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
First of all, Asatru is not an “unbroken tradition” (hence the name germanic NEO-paganism) the belief in Elves and or land-spirits IS. There is no evidence to the contrary. I am not citing random Eddaic stories, due to the fact that I have not cited either of the Eddas. I cited the “Heimskringla” [1] , not the Eddas. You are not properly checking my work and citations. The references are not “random”, since they are dealing with the subject at hand. The first reference IS of a modern day book, which is used in the United States (by “the Troth”), England (by Ring of Troth) and Germany (by the Eldaring) as a book of beliefs, customs and rituals. [2] The chapter on “Alfs, Dwarves, Land-wights, and Huldfolk” quite clearly deal with what the beliefs are and how to make offering to these beings, based on past information. That is why I referenced it first. It would be ludacris to quote the entire chapter. Be it reconstructed or not, the fact is, modern day Asatru are worshipping these beings. The second reference deals with the historic background of the modern custom. A reference to the past answers the questions; where did they get it from and why is it more important to a Heathen as opposed to a Norse-Wiccan? Heathens are simply, more worried about “getting it right.” As to your question on why I only deal with the Germanic countries, pertaining to worship of elves etc., because this page is about “Germanic-Neopaganism”. The Kalash you mentioned are "pagan", not “Neopagan” and therefore not relevant. Neither are the Mursi of Africa, or the Onondaga, in New York. Wicca IS relevant, because it belongs to the “Neopangan” family of religions. If I want to prove Asatru is more animist than other Neopagan traditions, why should I involve religions that don't fall into that category? This makes no sense at all! To get back to the countries I mentioned, in the 19th and early 20th century people, “certainly had a widespread belief in beings like elves, trolls, nixes, huldras and so on, which IMO could translate as a kind of animism.” as "Berig" stated above. This is why the Brothers Grimm, more specifically Jacob Grimm could collect vast amounts of information (putting aside his interpretation of that information) in the 19th. Century, from people in rural areas that practised a folkloreistic worship of Elves, Kobolde, Dwarfs, etc., proving that the worship of Elves and therefore “animism” survived (to some extent) in Europe. The rural populations of these countries would not have had the resources to research “folkcustom” and revive it. This would be a ludacris assumtion. So therefore these customs must have survived but in an altered (evolved) form. Specifically the modern day Icelanders are more aware of these old customs, be it a facetious manner or not, the fact that they build their roads around places that are believed to be homes of Elves, proves that they are, at the very least, superstitious. The Thai people build houses for spirits they have displaced, the so called “ghost houses”. These are two approaches to the same problem. The Thais are not “Neopagan” so it is not relevant that they have a belief in these spirits. Compared to heathens, Wiccans take a more “Junginan” and mix and match approach to their gods. They are “just” archetypes, or aspects of the same god/goddess and not separate beings, as in Asatru. Wiccans are usually duotheistic, or pantheistic. These gods are present in everything, including nature. This is not my understanding of animism. By that definition Christianity would be animistic, because god is omnipresent. To quote the animism article you edited: "Religions which emphasize animism are mostly ethnic religions or folk religions, such as the various forms of Shamanism, Shinto, or certain currents of Hinduism." ( animism ) . As I have stated before Wicca is an immanent religion, meaning they can find god wherever they look. So if they wish to worship an elf, they can, but it is not essential and not a part of their “theology”. The horned god and mother goddess are the focal point and every god/goddess or being can be substituted into that position.( wicca ) Germanic Neopaganism is polytheistic and therefore pluralistic. All beings are separate form one another and therefore an elf is an elf and a god a god. They are not "archetypes", or interchangeable. ( http://www.heathengods.com/library/wicca_comparison/pentagram_and_the_hammer.pdf). Every modern Asatru book I have read, always has at least one chapter on the elves, because it is a essential part of the religion. Wiccan books do not. Giving offerings to the house-ghost is a part of the Asatru religion, much like it is to do so in Thailand. Again, it is NOT an essential part of Wicca, but it is an OPTION. This is why modern Asatru is “more” animistic than Wicca or other Neopagan religions. Odinsjarl ( talk) 14:47, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I think you are not paying attention.
You present a book by The Troth discussing "Alfs, Dwarves, Land-Wights, and Huldfolk".
So, feel free to state that The Troth, or if you like, Germanic Neopagans, believe in these beings.
Do not jump to conclusions and present claims regarding Germanic Neopaganism compared with other religions, or claims regarding "animism". This is a fallacy we call
WP:SYNTH. You start off by presenting one source, and then go on to make random claims not backed up by your source at all.
While I accept there is a relation between "animism" and the belief in nature-spirits such as elves, I do not think the two concepts may be equated. Elves are anthropomorphic. Animism is the belief in souls inherent in nature itself, e.g. trees or rocks. Now in cases where the claim goes that such and such a rock is inhabited by elves, I can see the connection to animism. The point remains that if you want to discuss animism in Germanic Neopaganism, you need to PRESENT A REFERENCE discussing, explicitly, animism in Germanic Neopaganism. Not a Troth book mentioning elves, not a story from the Icelandic sagas, but an explicit reference. This isn't asking too much, since by now there are a number of academic studies on Neopaganism. Consult one of those. If they don't mention animism, I do not think Wikipedia should. -- dab (𒁳) 15:04, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
to start you off, it is a good idea to go to google books and search for "animism" and "Neopaganism". You will get some 300 hits, including this and this. Both go to show animism has some significance in Neopaganism. Neither mentions Germanic Neopaganism in particular. In fact, searching for Asatru and animism gives just about 50 hits, of which none seem to use the terms in topical relation to one another. But I don't want to do your job for you. If you are interested in covering this topic, and I invite you to, go and do some research, and then come back with what you found. We are a community of encyclopedists here, not of essayists. -- dab (𒁳) 15:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I believe you are biased on this topic. I have proven that independently organised "germanic neopagans" in three different countries use a ritual book that deals specifically with the WORSHIP of elves (and not just the "belief in" elves) AND land-spirits (which are are NOT "anthropomorphic" and usually have animal-shape). This is defined as animism and there is nothing you can change about that. The book "Our Troth" deals with the practice of the Asatru and links it directly to animism. This is a "good source". The book does not just "mention" elves as you stated, your choice of words proving your bias on this topic.
Furthermore I have cited sources for the relationship of Wicca to their gods and nature, that clearly states that they see god in "everything", NOT as an independent soul/spirit (which would make it an animistic religion). You criticise elves as being "anthropomorphic", but you do not see, that land-spirits are also mentioned?
To sum things up: Asatru is animist, this animism is inspired by old sources (which you added, and I agree, even though the article clearly states that Asatru is reconstructionist), Wicca has animistic TENDENCIES, but is by self definition i.e. they are an "immanent religion" and therefore not an "animistic religion". I do not need a scientific study if both groups, by "self definition" agree with this. This is not: "Synthesis occurs when an editor puts together multiple sources to reach a conclusion that is not in any of the sources." It is stating a fact, with sources, that both groups agree to. There is even a comparison of Wicca and "polytheists" in the animism article. It clearly states how Wiccans use the term "animism". These "polytheist" (and Asatru are polytheists) see these spirits as separate "individuals", which is closer to the definition of animism given at the top of the article. Please read the section "Currently" 2nd. paragraph animism .Please do not change the facts to suit your own assumptions, which is, what I feel, you are doing.
I do need to apologize for citing the wrong paragraph as a source on the website ( http://www.eldaring.de/readarticle.php?article_id=6#III3). It was III. part 3.that states they have an "animistic world view". Odinsjarl ( talk) 17:00, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I never denied Asaru has "an animistic worldview". That's fine. If you have a source saying "immanent religion and therefore not an animistic religion", or even just "not an animistic religion" on Wicca, let's see it.
Understand this: WP:SYNTH says, if you're going to claim "X is animistic", you'll need a source stating "X is animistic", not a source discussing land-spirits, another source saying land-spirits tend to be theriomorphic, and a third source mentioning animism and theriomorphic spirits in the same paragraph or chapter. Ok? Your Eldaring reference is saying (from the German),
This goes for a statement that
It does not go for a claim that
or indeed
Is this really so difficult to understand? If you cannot follow this explanation, I would ask you to please write in a blog instead of editing encyclopedic articles.
Well, you'll not be able to complain that I didn't take the time to explain WP:SYNTH to you, or what is expected from you when you edit articles. You are welcome to continue editing, but you will note that you will tend to be reverted if your argument is pieced together or goes beyond what your sources state. -- dab (𒁳) 17:08, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
The source was for an earlier discusson, when you stated I need a source, that states Asatru is animist. It was not in reference to Wicca and which is "more" animistic. I just re-checked some of the things I wrote and noticed it. When I make a mistake, I say it.
I understand what you are saying and I think it is because you don't agree (or find elves "silly"), so you want a source for every statement. Pertaining to Wicca and animism, yes they do use the word, but as it states in the animism article they use a broader definition of the term. Asatru is more conservative in the use of the word. I think we can agree to that. Odinsjarl ( talk) 17:39, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
You are correct, you have spent a lot of time with this, it was unfair of me to question your motivation, and I apologize for that. It was not right of me and I thank you for your patience.
In the article I wrote I never stated that Asatru is "more" animistic than Wicca. It is something you requested, to be allowed to add "Germanic Neopagnaism" to the animism article, despite Wicca explicitly being a part of that article. To quote you from the animism disussion: "Of course, all neopagan flavours attempt to revive historical animism, but there is nothing to suggest that Germanic neopaganism does this more than others." Historical animism? How do eclectic Wiccans try to revive "historical animism"? I would like your source for this.
To end this I will change the animism page, so that germanic neopagnaism is merely used as an example of neopagans that DO practice a form of animism based on historic paganism. Is this okay? Odinsjarl ( talk) 23:25, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
thanks. Here's to fruitful collaboration in the future. -- dab (𒁳) 13:34, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Qualified the section on "Blót" under Rites, to prevent some misunderstanding. The blót is performed outside of the homestead, and "garb" isn't required.
Also corrected "is are" to "are."
GeminiDomino 14:08, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I am a bit hesitant to agree with the addition of the berserkrgang being linked with seidh. The 'how' of a berserkr being what he/she is in past centuries is still a hot topic for speculation and debate between scholars of Scandinavian history. Do you have some lore texts you can cite for that reference in the article in order to support it, Dieter? I can pull out my notes on the subject and do so myself, but if you have them handy and get to it before I can, please feel free. You might have some I do not have, and vice-versa. P.MacUidhir 20:03, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Gnostic Lore: Thor and many other (G)gods (no GotterDammering!) were quite concerned with the development of the nuclear age. They witnessed the effects first hand and became very vigil. I was aware of the Thor Missile Program at that Time (precursor to the Atlas Program and at one Time, there was a stray Thor Missile that entered a foreign land). It came to a point that Thor had stood in one place so long that he had become a Mountain, yet he could leave this position at any Time (either large or small). I suggested to Him to go take a bath in the Creek and go yonder to the West to a Church and get new clothes; I never asked Him what Church, but He did return with White Linen. He had gained a new outlook. He would still Vanquish the Earth.
Gnostics 04:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
What. D Boland ( talk) 02:32, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Huh, kind of! In the section Ethics a certain thau is mentioned:
What are those "tribes"? (Clarification needed). It is possible to conclude from the paragraph that those "Theodish groups" are organized into "tribes", which are factually not "tribes" in the ordinary sense, since westerners aren't organized in tribes proper. The last paragraph of section Ethics might reflect some truth, but it is confused by introducing terms without proper explanation. ... said: Rursus ( bork²) 11:50, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes... I think this is
Theodism vocabulary, a rather less than notable subset of US Asatru, which nevertheless has a bunch of self-published books to quote from. They have thew, a word that the
OED labels obsolete, giving the defintion " A custom, usage, general practice (e.g. of a people, community, or class)."
I don't know why thew should be spelled thau here. As a rule, garbled passages should be deleted from neopaganism articles on sight unless they are clearly attributed to some source. --
dab
(𒁳)
17:54, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
The paragraph is about Neo-Nazis. Not only is "far right" not mentioned, but the page that the subheader links to assigns both "far right" and "far left" to the idea of racialism. To meet some kind of compromise, instead of the misleading "far right" (which generally implies conservative, at which point the discussion becomes "what is conservative neopaganism"), it's much clearer to call it "racialism" or "neo nazis". This is what the discussion is about in this paragraph. If we don't want to discuss Neo-Nazis, fine, lets call it racialism.
well, I do not feel strongly about this, but I would like to point out that you can certainly be on the far-right without being a Neo-Nazi. Neo-Nazis are generally losers who like to decorate their rooms with Third Reich paraphernalia. The far-right has moved beyond that, you do not recognize a member of the Nouvelle Droite from their collection of SS daggers. And yes, the Nouvelle Droite has everything to do with neopaganism, see GRECE. There is also the wider topic of Neofascism which also does not necessarily ally itself with Neo-Nazism, "88" graffiti and swastika tattoos. Neofascism has completely shed the Nazi iconography and terminology. It now calls itself things like " radical traditionalism. -- dab (𒁳) 16:31, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Although I won't be editing this article, I've found this which looks useful. Dougweller ( talk) 17:59, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
since this US-specific, the Asatru in the United States article may be a better venue for the topic. -- dab (𒁳) 18:05, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Regarding this, I suggest mention along these lines. There is, of course, no merit to the "founded in 1421" claim, but as with Gardner it is impossible to tell whether Mirabello made it up himself, or whether he genuinely believed the story told to him by somebody who made it up. Not that it really matters. This is part of the 1990s history of the "second revival of Germanic neopaganism", and I suggest it deserves a brief mention here. I know of no indication that any Odin Brotherhood exists in any real sense. Anybody and their grandmothers can of course create facebook groups, wordpress blogs and the like with the title, but that doesn't qualify as "reference" in our sense. -- dab (𒁳) 19:43, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
This section of the article is headed as 'Asatru and Racism' but only discusses Odinist extremism.
This is a significantly misleading title. Asatru as a term is used to describe a follower of the Aesir Gods, whilst Odinism is its own category. This section should be retitled as 'Odinism and Racism', as there is not evidence cited of such racism in any Asatru organisation. This is a small change but will reflect the content of this section 100%.
I would also propose the moving of the quote from the White Order of Thule 'Felton and Chase' prosecution in the US. I had not heard of this, but having reviewed the White Order of Thule wiki page they do not meet the classification of Germanic Neopagan. According to the this page they 'followed pre-Christian beliefs as represented by the ancient Celts, Norse, Greeks, Slavs, Romans and other ancient Indo-European peoples'. This is not the definition of Germanic Neopaganism as it includes Greek and Roman beliefs, and is unfairly tarring the germanic neopagan page (there is now no separate page for Asatru in its own right) with the brush of US domestic extremism and racism. As the linked page does not meet the definition of Asatru, it should not be included here. It belongs on the neovolkish page, not Asatru or germanic neopaganism. Indeed, the White Order of Thule page itself refers readers onto the neo fascism page, not here.
Furthermore, the FBI report is into domestic threats in the year 2000. This report does not concern itself with groups who do not attach a special significance to the year 2000, and that caveat is clearly written in the executive summary of the report. Why then is it the permanent tag line to the section on racism in Asatru? The year 2000 has been and gone. Intelligence has a shelf life, and that report was specific to 1999. It is now 2011. I will add the much more strongly worded caveat that the report itself provides that states it does not refer to organisations without a Y2K issue . This is critical, as it is not listed anywhere on this article as an issue for any neopagans, and the year 2000 is/was not a significant date for any of the groups on the page.
And the section mentions Robert Jay Mathews - upon consulting his wiki page he is both deceased as of 1984 (hence pre-dating most of the organisations listed on this page) but also was a mormon and then a white supremacist. It makes no mention of any Odinist or otherwise neopagan beliefs. Again, the inclusion of this fact is not corroborated elsewhere, but adds a massive taint to the germanic neopaganism page.
These are basic categorisation errors that are giving this page a heavy slant towards extremist views.
Erghiez1985 (
talk)
00:02, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
I have now made these changes as discussed. I have also added a section to state that the Asatru Alliance and The Troth are not Odinist organisations, as the current article implies that they are. I've also added the sections from these organisations' charters in which they explicitly state they reject racism, to give the article more balance.
Erghiez1985 ( talk) 15:55, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
This section claims to set out the beliefs of Germanic Neopaganism, however it lists a quote from an Odinist organisation calling it 'the first creedal statement of Germanic heathen beliefs'. This claim is not referenced, and by making the statement it implies that this creed is somehow a good summary of the whole. It is not - it is a summary of Odinist beliefs.
This particular section does not do justice to any of the other religious groups who fall under this wiki category of germanic neopaganism. Asatru organisations have their own belief statements for example, and the Troth, Asatru Folk Assembly and Asatru Alliance all have more modern and moderate mission statements, statements of ethics and so on. These are significantly more moderate than the language used in this Melbourne creed (which mentions 'holy nations of Odin', sacred blood, blasphemers and traitors being renounced etc etc). If you are trying to capture a belief statement of the germanic religions and give an objective view on the beliefs of these religious groups, then using the international organisations such as the three mentioned above makes more sense and is more balanced. If not exclusively, then they need to have their own beliefs stated for balance, otherwise this section is just 'Odinist beliefs' and further to my above post will suggest that all Germanic Neopagans subscribe to this Odinist creed. To stress again, they do not.
This article is combining 4 or 5 strands of germanic neopaganism into one page, and then trying to impose commonalities where they do not exist. There is a significant volume of information on the actual beliefs and practices of these religious groups out there, and if this page is going to try and lump these branches of heathenry together it needs to do it properly and accurately, or not at all and separate them out into distinct articles in their own right.
Erghiez1985 ( talk) 20:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm a little concerned that some elements of this article appear to tip over the POV line a little. One section that caught my eye read:
"Such connections between northern heathenism and racism are tenuous at best. The double-standard of racism seems only to apply to "White" people, as nearly every ethnic group has organizations celebrating their heritage (e.g., MEChA)."
I've removed this, though I've tried to tune the section above it so that the point is preserved (that no act of terrorism has ever been attributed to an Odinist group).
I'm aware that Asatru/Odinism/Norse Heathenism does have an issue with its unwarranted association with racism and white supremacism; however the above comment ("double-standard") was a personal assertion and not something that adds to the article. It may or may not be true, but it's still POV. Obviously if we can find a quotation from someone relevant and notable, there'd be nothing to stop this going back in as a quote. - Silvensis ( talk) 12:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
I think it might be good to take the "neo" out of this article. The main "Neopaganism" article has been changed to Paganism (contemporary religions), so related articles probably should reflect that. Also, in my experience at least, the majority of people practicing Germanic religions (as well as other culturally specific European religions; Celtic, Roman, Hellenic, etc.) do not refer to themselves as "Neopagans." I think changing it to "Germanic Paganism (contemporary religions)" would reflect the population better, while still being broad enough to include Reconstructionists and Germanic-focused eclectics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WarriorPrincessDanu ( talk • contribs) 15:55, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
I also agree with Bhlegkorbh that Heathenism would be a more appropriate term for this page. Heathen is being used primarily by those that this article defines, with Asatru and other such names coming in as a close second. Germanic Neopaganism is incorrect for many reasons, not all Heathens feel they are Germanic, Pagan is a term used less and less frequently by those that follow these faiths, and the Neo part wouldn't apply in any case. Olaf.i44 ( talk) 22:14, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Why have the massive changes taken place? They appear to be removing references and replacing them with questionable references, and unexplained reorganizing that doesn't appear to have the same flow that the article had. - Sudo Ghost 20:53, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
I mention this just because I've edited a link from this article: the above section described Firne Sitte as "Upper German, Austria and Switzerland-based". I've changed this to "Germany, Austria and Switzerland-based" because as I can see, Upper German only links to a language dialect whereas the others are countries. So this now points to Germany rather than Upper German. - Silvensis ( talk) 12:15, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Frisians are not in any way, shape or form "modern descendants" of the Franks, as this article stated before I changed it. Please do not make this mistake again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.61.230.65 ( talk) 13:04, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm not really familiar with the religions of Europe, but it seems to me that the terms Heathen and Pagan are both a description of what they aren't (Abrahamic) rather than what they are, which is understandable in the sense that the idea of separating religious belief from cultural belief was something that only large empires such as the Persians and Romans had to contend with. Being named for something that you aren't, to me, appears either reactive or pejorative, depending upon who it was that coined the term.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathen#Heathen Both "pagan" and "heathen" have historically been used as a pejorative by adherents of monotheistic religions (such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam) to indicate a disbeliever in their religion.
I guess that my contention is that by accepting these terms, one is taking a reactive stance to another set of beliefs, and by doing so, one is creating a strong relationship - a bond - with those other beliefs. It appears obvious that some religious beliefs are inherently bonded to Abrahamic religions - especially those who share the same theology (e.g. Satanism), but for others there is no such inherent bond, and it sits uncomfortably with me to address those people of faith using a negative connotation.
My personal beliefs are Buddhist, and even the term 'Buddhist' is pretty much a neologism - the self-designated term for a Buddhist is 'insider', but within the context of the world, 'insider' isn't going to work, and at least 'Buddhism' is an assertive name indicating a correlating relationship with Buddha. I feel a sense of brethrenship with those who follow the old religious beliefs of Europe, but I do not wish to base that relationship on the grounds that we are both not Abrahamic. Also, for me to say 'my friend Knut is a heathen' - is not descriptive; as, by definition, I also am a pagan. Following the negative inclusion construction, I would need to say something like 'my friend Knut is a heathen outsider' - but he could still be a Hindu, a Sikh, a Taoist, Shinto... ( 20040302 ( talk) 09:45, 19 October 2011 (UTC))
This page was renamed on 21 September 2011 and some time after that the following two posts were placed on my talk page. I'm reposting them here as I think this is where the discussion belongs. I will add my response below.
I have no view right now on the right title for the page (I'll do some researching and try and form one!) However I do think the page move was hasty and not done with any kind of consensus. The edit summary of the page move on 21 Sept says "per talk page" but the brief entry above for that date doesn't constitute a clear proposal for a move, still less a consensus. I'm not going to revert the move at this stage but Blegkorbh can you be a bit less hasty with moves in future? (Also, please could you edit logged in? It's hard to keep track of who contributes what if you don't - apologies if this is problematic for you.) Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 20:22, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Please Restore page to the NEUTRAL Heading of Germanic Neopaganism.
The editor Bhlegkorbh represents a small group in America with eight members. They are here
The primary definition of heathen is an irreligious or bad person See defintion here.
Bhlegkorbh has gone across wikipedia changing pagan references to "heathen" in order to direct Internet traffic to his small group. I respect his zeal, but wikipedia needs articles under "neutral" terms.
He also reverses my edits on referring to the movement as Odinism or Asatru in the introductory paragraph. The largest groups, such as Odinic Rite, Asatru Alliance, and the Asatru Folk Assembly use those names.
Amazon book search for Asatru:
Amazon book search for Odinism:
Amazon Book search for Heathenism (mainly used in the sense of atheist or primitive people)
Germanic Neopaganism is a neutral term and does not support any particular group. Please return this page to a neutral heading.
Note. DBachman, as an administrator who has posted under Germanic Neopaganism, could you help here?
Also, a note, I did indeed post under OdinicRite, but I was asked to stop.
Thank you.
-- ThorLives ( talk) 00:09, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
An additional point, Bhlegkorbh says the name change was discussed here, but the discussion has nothing to do with calling the movement heathenism.
Generally speaking, Americans prefer Asatru, the British prefer Odinism, and people who wanted to emphasize Anglo-Saxon traditions refer to Theodism, and Americans who wanted to emphasize German traditions, as opposed to Scandinavian ones, call it Heathenism.
Since all these names have a focus, the Generic word Paganism works best, in my opinion.
Again, we need a neutral and comprehensive term to reflect all movements.
-- ThorLives ( talk) 05:55, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Another example of systematic changes--they are all over in the recent period.
-- ThorLives ( talk) 06:03, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
I have already written that I am NOT a member of the Jotun Bane Kindred, the Heathen Nation, the Heathen Alliance, Heathen House, Heathens For Progress, Heathens Against Hate, or the other TENS of groups that use the term Heathenism, and besides I am NOT American at all (and my IPs witness this). Your statements are inane bias.
Then, the Odinic Rite, the Asatru Alliance and the Asatru Folk Assembly represent different organizations of BRANCHES of Heathenism, they're not Heathenry per se. American Asatru is a totally different thing from Scandinavian Heathenism, it's different from Urglaawe, it's different from Fyrnsidu, etc.
Regarding the preference of the term "Heathenism" over "Germanic Neopaganism" I repeat for the umpteenth time that the first has penetrated the Heathen populations and is used by Heathens THEMSELVES both in America (you can even find an article about Heathenry in Canada) and Europe, it's not representative of a single organization. Moreover its used is supported by TENS of authoritative sources and academical studies, and even by Heathen organizations themselves (and not just one as you say). -- Bhlegkorbh ( talk) 14:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Examples of academic works and authoritative sources using the term "Heathenry":
With all due respect to Ms Stephens, her paper appears to a simple post on a blog.
Is this a good source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThorLives ( talk • contribs) 01:08, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
-- ThorLives ( talk) 01:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Heathenism. The term, that covers all of them is Heathenism.")
PS. I notice that the page you've linked above for the Amazon Book Search of "Heathenism" is the SECOND one. If you look the first one you find: Perceived Heathenism & Odinic Prayer: A Book of Heathen Prayer and Direct Contact with Our Living Gods and Odinism: Inside the Belly of the Beast: Essays on Heathenism by Wyatt Kaldenberg, Germanic Heathenry: A Practical Guide by James Coulter, Hanging From the Tree: Living with the Runes by Scott Allen Mohnkern and Emily McDonell. If you look for Heathenry you find tens of books on Germanic Paganism, and even publications of The Journal of Contemporary Heathen Thought. -- Bhlegkorbh ( talk) 15:22, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
I support the name Germanic Neopaganism. The internal name used by the community is not the name commonly used to refer to it overall.--~ T P W 19:43, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree with DBachmann that Germanic Neopaganism is the best name. I have been involved in Odinism for decades, and I would prefer that name for this article, but I understand that wikipedia has to use neutral terms and it must promote consensus terms.
There are groups who use Odinist in their titles. Their are groups who use Asatru in their titles. Their are groups who use Heathen in their titles. Their are groups that use Theodism in their titles. But no one uses "Germanic Neopaganism" in their titles, so that makes it a neutral term
-- ThorLives ( talk) 06:10, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
The term "Germanic Neopaganism" is not perfect as it has several problems. Many Asatruers reject the term "pagan" and prefer "heathen" instead. Then there is the question of the "neo" prefix that is also contested. // Liftarn ( talk)
Bhlegkorbh, can you provide a reliable source that supports your assertion that "ALL of these groups and most of their members use the term "Heathenism/-ry" when speaking about the whole movement without a focus on the specific organisations?" If you could I would support it, but clearly there are groups and individuals which do not use the term in the way you describe. If we could get away from describing the naming practices in absolute terms where none exist, a suitable name would be much easier to determine.--~ T P W 13:22, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Political or Religious Bias? I am concerned that this page believes that in the UK people prefer the term "Odinism" over "Heathenry", this is not the case as in the UK "Odinism" refers only to the beliefs of the Odinic Rite. Such on-line groups as UKHeathenry and real world events such as Heathenfest only identify as Heathen with many members actively distancing themselves from Odinism and the OR. I am also concerned that this page in it's reflection of the current state of Heathenry in the UK is biased and untrue in that it previous had links to groups that were not affiliated to the Odinic Rite and these have all been removed. Is this page being used as a promotional tool for the OR in the UK? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noddyt ( talk • contribs) 08:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I support Yngvadottir idea for the title to be "Heathenry (Modern)" with the two redirects. I'm member of the Pagan press, PNC, with a degree in journalism, membership in a journalistic association, and have worked in mainstream news (ABC affiliate) for most of my adult life. I'm currently writing the stylebook for Pagan media and "Heathen" is the term used when a non-denominational term for Contemporary Nordic Pagans is needed. Contemporary Nordic Paganism is the term used by scholars, but no one outside of academia uses that term. As an aside, the term Neo-Paganism is falling out of academic use and is replaced with the term Contemporary Paganism, although Pagan is the term used within the community. Wikipedia has noted this and the page on Neo-Paganism is now "Paganism (contemporary)" so at the very least, this page's title should drop the "Neo". When we write about our community as a whole, we use the phrase "Pagans, Heathens, and polytheists" as it is inclusive while not offensive. There have been many sources listed which note Heathen is the generally inclusive used term. Disclosures: I was asked to take a look at this discussion as I am in the Pagan media, but was not lobbied for any specific position. I am not a Heathen, but a Hellenian (Hellenic Pagan). CaraSchulz ( talk) 16:11, 23 November 2011 (UTC)CaraSchulz
I see the article has deteriorated in other respects. There used to be a discussion of synonyms of "Germanic Neopaganism" as used within the movement.
This has now been conflated with an attempt at discussing "branches" of the movement. The result is a mess. The current article suggests that "Forn Siðr" has the sub-branches "Ásatrú, Vanatrú, Rökkatrú", while there are separate branches of "Fyrnsidu" and "Firno Situ and Firne Sitte". This is utter nonsense. Can you please either fix it, or restore it the way it was before this gallery of obscure terms became presented as a "list of branches"?
The fact of the matter is that Forn Siðr, Fyrnsidu and Firno Situ are exact and conscious translations of one another, and represent one single "branch", or rather approach within Germanic Neopaganism. It is bizarre to present these separately. -- dab (𒁳) 07:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Without trying to offend anyone, I agree that the article is now a bit of a mess. Instead of being a clear description of a religious movement, with its history, theology, ethics, eschatology, rituals, and so forth, it has been refashioned to make a rhetotical point, that somehow everything is a subset of heathenry.
-- ThorLives ( talk) 05:58, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
As I have mentioned elsewhere, I have been involved with Odinism for decades, and I would NEVER use the word heathen to describe my religion.
Now, it may be my socio-economic class ( I have silver hair and I wear suits in my profession), but if I went to a party in lower Manhattan I would feel foolish calling myself a "heathen." "Heathen" is not a name of a religion; it was an insult hurled at the friends of the old gods by the Christians. It simply means "country dweller," but in a negative way ("hick" or "redneck").
I know teenagers trying to torment their parents or prisoners trying to irritate the Christian chaplain may like "heathen" for the "shock effect," but I think my religion should have respectability.
"Odinism" is in the Oxford dictionary and has been in use since the 19th century. Asatru is a name developed in the 1970's, but at least it means something honorable, which is "trust in the Aesir."
-- ThorLives ( talk) 08:47, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
The Asatru Alliance is the large Germanic neopagan group in North America, and I do not see any reference to heathen on their web site.
-- ThorLives ( talk) 01:17, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
True Pagan Warrior, I do not have exact numbers, but the Odinic Rite, the Asatru Alliance, and the Asatru Folk Assebly are the largest groups, at least in the English-speaking world. Groups such as the Heathen Temple and the Heathen Alliance have 4-8 members each
--
ThorLives (
talk)
20:13, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
For reasons that I've included in my recent edit summaries, it seems pretty evident to me that this article needs nothing less than a rewrite from the ground up. For anyone with the time for the task, please see Wikipedia:Good_article_criteria and Wikipedia:Manual of Style for handy guides for standards to rewrite an article with. I understand that there's an issue with academia on this subject; academic works mentioning Germanic Neopaganism frequently either misrepresent the subject matter or are bizarrely silent on the subject (Orchard's recent Poetic Edda translation comes to mind), but this article simply cannot exist on the foundation that it is currently propped up on. For an example of a Germanic Neopaganism-related article done right, see our article on the Ásatrúarfélagið. :bloodofox: ( talk) 18:02, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Bloodofox, thank you for your action.
May I suggest that we take the front of the article from 22 July 2010 (the material up through "Theology and Cosmology") and place it on this article? It would clean out a great deal of the rhetoric and would eliminate many self-published references.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Germanic_Neopaganism&diff=374920743&oldid=374920711 (Article from 22 July 2010)
-- ThorLives ( talk) 01:09, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a reference work and it needs clear and concise articles. The Germanic Neopaganism page was once nominated for a "good article" award, but now there is a call for a complete re-write. Conclusion: the latest edits have degraded the article. -- ThorLives ( talk) 01:56, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Bloodofox,I now see the problem that you are identifying: using web sites and self-published books as "sources" violates wikipedia policy. But, to help the new article, could YOU (since you have expertise here) delete all bad material in this old version so that we could use it to rebuild? |old article (Article from 22 July 2010) -- ThorLives ( talk) 22:45, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree the article needs a rewrite now. Now it has been turned into a sad mess, I mean. I am happy to be informed that User:Bhlegkorbh does not think it is a mess, but frankly this doesn't say as much about the article as about this particular editor. A lot of thought went into the toc of the article. It was never finished, and improvement was always welcome and necessary. But to simply destroy a carefully balanced toc structure is a sure way to take a good article down the drain entirely. So, instead of calling for a "complete rewrite", which may or may not happen by 2015 or 2020, meanwhile leaving the current state as the "consensus version"(!), how about simply reverting to the last good (though incomplete) revision and take it from there? There can still be a rewrite as soon as somebody (qualified) gets round to doing that, but in the meantime I see no reason to simply accept article deterioration as a fact of life when it's as simple as reverting to before things started to go downhill. -- dab (𒁳) 14:25, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I propose the last stable version was that of 18 July. Because after that, the article was taken to town by a massive flurry of anonymous edits, needless to say all of it without consensus. I am not saying there were no good edits after 18 July. I am saying the article has lost all stability since then, and if we want to get it back on track we need to go back to the last stable version. Individual edits that actually improved the article can obviously be inserted back in.
I invoke WP:BRD here: People were Bold, now I have Reverted. Now, based on the stable version Reverted to, there needs to be Discussion. -- dab (𒁳) 14:29, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
DBachmann, thanks for reverting the article. I see Bloodofox's point, about a rewrite, but it is easier to improve something that exists (like the Soyuz spacecraft) than junking something and building new (the space shuttle and its replacement). -- ThorLives ( talk) 23:22, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I continue the discussion here and copy some previous messages since ThorLives / OdinicRite has recently reverted the article to a one-year old incomplete version with his new sockpuppet ignoring such discussion.-- Bhlegkorbh ( talk) 17:38, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Bhlegkorbh, can you provide a reliable source that supports your assertion that "ALL of these groups and most of their members use the term "Heathenism/-ry" when speaking about the whole movement without a focus on the specific organisations?" If you could I would support it, but clearly there are groups and individuals which do not use the term in the way you describe. If we could get away from describing the naming practices in absolute terms where none exist, a suitable name would be much easier to determine.--~ T P W 13:22, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Political or Religious Bias? I am concerned that this page believes that in the UK people prefer the term "Odinism" over "Heathenry", this is not the case as in the UK "Odinism" refers only to the beliefs of the Odinic Rite. Such on-line groups as UKHeathenry and real world events such as Heathenfest only identify as Heathen with many members actively distancing themselves from Odinism and the OR. I am also concerned that this page in it's reflection of the current state of Heathenry in the UK is biased and untrue in that it previous had links to groups that were not affiliated to the Odinic Rite and these have all been removed. Is this page being used as a promotional tool for the OR in the UK? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noddyt ( talk • contribs) 08:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Personally I see no problems with using the title "Germanic Neopaganism" or "Heathenry" for this page, what is important as far as this goes is that both these search terms will result in this page being displayed as Heathenry is much wider used word than Germanic Neopaganism. I am very concerned however that this page gives a completely unbalanced, in fact untruthful, picture of the state of Heathenry in the UK by making it appear that only the Odinic Rite exist in the UK. One has to ask if the recent edits of this page are to promote one person's political or religious ideas by hiding other groups and ideas. Noddyt ( talk) 08:10, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Germanic NeoPaganism is problematic as a title for the following reasons: 1. "NeoPaganism" as a title isn't used on Wikipedia anymore and was changed to "Paganism(contemporary)" so NeoPaganism shouldn't be used in this title, either. 2. Germanic is a limiting, less inclusive term as there are more branches of this religion than purely German. For example, there is Gaelic or Celtic Heathenry which has roots in pre-Christian Scotland. [3] There is also Slavic Heathenry, which has roots in Russia, Poland, Czech Republic, Ukraine, Byelorussia, Serb-Croatia, Macedonia, Slovenia, Bulgaria. [4] I include those links not as reliable sources, but to show there are religious adherents that are outside of the strict Germanic boundaries that the title "Germanic NeoPaganism" would limit us to. They have real differences, such a primary deities worshiped, but have similar customs, practices, and all have a strong foundation of ancestor veneration which makes them a branch of the same religion rather than a separate religion. CaraSchulz ( talk) 20:15, 23 November 2011 (UTC)CaraSchulz
My suggestion - "Heathenry(contemporary)" with redirects. When talking about our connected communities a standard phrase is emerging "Pagans, Heathens, and polytheists" or "Pagans and Heathens." Here is a Washington Post On Faith Column - a column devoted to talking about matters of religion - "Reason and temperance were championed throughout the ancient pagan societies, and are still valued today by Pagans, Heathens, and polytheists who claim inspiration and lineage from these great civilizations." [5] I believe that, combined with the BBC source, shows Heathen is trending as a term that people inside and outside the religion are using as an umbrella term. Also note: The Wild Hunt, which is a blog for the related religious communities, has been using "Pagans and Heathens" as a standard phrase. Although it is a blog and not a reliable source, it is a very influential blog that is widely read by nonPagans and nonHeathans and is often cited and quoted by the mainstream media and used as a source. In a Google search of just The Wild Hunt using "Pagan and Heathen" it returns 3740 hits. [6] And he uses the phrase, "My semi-regular round-up of articles, essays, and opinions of note for discerning Pagans and Heathens" as standard for his news round-ups. 97.92.17.94 ( talk) 15:25, 24 November 2011 (UTC)CaraSchulz
I posted this below but I'll post it here as well with an additional note..To the above comment of "If I see evidence that all of these (in reference to heathen groups) refer to themselves as heahten then i will support it)." The problem with this is that the term itself is nebulous, and anyone and his brother can form a group and either say he is or isn't heathen. By that same token I guarantee you we can find more support in the "heathen" communities for the term "heathen" than the "Neopagan" that is currently up there. To be blunt, very few heathens refer to themself as "neopagan". Now-
Whether or not individuals find the term "heathen" to be offensive, or if they personally want to use it shouldn't be taken into consideration for multiple reasons. The argument FOR "heathen" variants has a lot of support both in modern groups, and in acadamia, and we find more support for the use of the term "heathen" in big groups (This is seriously faulty thinking by the way-if you think the so called "Major/National Organizations" represent the majority of heathenism your wrong.) than we do for the word "neopagan". Consider these points. A) aside from Forn Sidr, or the names of individual germanic tribes, Heathen is the only term that was a naturally germanic term that was used to refer to prechristian germanic people. It appears first in Gothic but appears in Beowulf, Anglo Saxon Law, and in the Sagas, with a good example being the Death scene of Hakon the Good "To the Heathen Gods he fared", when he was buried "by heathens". B) It is still used and understood in Academic circles, particularly among medieval historians to refer to prechristian germanic people SPECIFICALLY. C) A large portion of modern heathens refer to themselves as heathen BECAUSE they are focused on reconstructing specific cultural and religious traditions that are referred to in academic texts as well as medieval sources as "heathen". The online journal Odroerir has already been mentioned, as has the Journal for Contemporary Heathen Thought. Both of these exemplify the very real existence of a very large group of people who refer to themselves as "heathen". It should ALSO be noted that these people tend to NOT approve of being called or lumped into an umbrella term of "Neopaganism". A) Paganism was never a term used to refer to the religion of the Germanic tribes by any medieval source during the period that heathenism existed. So to call them "pagan" is inaccurate. B) We must take into account modern umbrella terms and groups and how they associate...heathens have big issues with being lumped in with groups that identify as "pagan". Lastly-most heathens have an issue with being called "neo" anything. Because ALL of these terms being offered are nebulous, no one term will ever be fully agreed on, but between "pagan" and "heathen", heathen is used much more widely in germanic...."heathen" circles, and it is more consistent with acadamia and linguistics. There is no reason to use a latin term to refer to germanic traditions.
Also adding to the above argument-The Troth, both in their released books, their periodicals and at their website refer to themselves and those who practice the same religion as "heathen" and NOT pagan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.248.63.82 (talk) 06:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Due to the above information, the most accurate and least offensive title for the page should be- "Contemporary Germanic Heathenism" -So I agree with the above opinion that it should be called Heathenism (Contemporary). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.248.63.82 ( talk) 07:36, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Once again, the questionable sources are returning.
A forum with 72 posters:
The Journal of Contemporary Heathen Thought which has one issue and is self-published (CreateSpace)
-- ThorLives ( talk) 05:27, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
The BBC page is most certainly a credible external link, it was written by Jenny Blain and the members of the APT and UKHeathenry Yahoo! Group which has 411 members representing most of the kindreds, hearths and other Heathen groups in the UK including the Troth UK. These people refer to their faith as Heathenry not Odinism which I must continue to hammer home is actually a modern subset of Heathenry not vice-versa. Noddyt ( talk) 13:01, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
We've been discussing the best name for this page for more than a week now and I'm going to suggest that we draw it to a close and ask for a decision from an uninvolved editor at WP:RM. In 24 hours or so from this timestamp, I will place a template at the bottom of this page which will place such a request. It's usual for people to suggest what the preferred new name should be, but in this case I'm not going to do that; instead I will ask the reviewing editor to look through this whole page and review the alternatives before coming to a decision.
So there are 24 hours for (a) people to object to this procedure, if they think it's the wrong way of deciding and (b) to add any final arguments (or even better - new sources) that have not so far been mentioned.
In respect of (a): please object to this procedure now if you know you are likely to be unwilling to abide by the result - whatever it is. There's no point getting someone to trawl through our discussions if we are simply going to ignore them if they choose the "wrong" title.
In respect of (b): please could I ask people NOT to simply restate arguments that have already been made; the reviewing editor will have enough to read and will not be impressed by people repeating arguments that have already been made. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 20:59, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Germanic Neopaganism → ? – A range of alternative names for this article have been suggested throughout this talk page. They include:
The last few have been least strongly suggested. There has been a certain amount of strong feeling here about this and in my view a consensus has not emerged. Hence this request to WP:RM. Any independent editor reviewing this will need to do a certain amount of link-following from the various wikilinks and external links above, for which effort we apologise and thank you in advance! If the reviewing editor/s is/are unfamiliar with the topic, it might be worth reviewing the family of articles linked from Paganism (contemporary) to get some context and look at how naming has been handled elsewhere in this topic area. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 20:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Heathen in the Oxford English Dictionary:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/heathen?region=us#m_en_us1254086.012
Note that the word is primarily a pejorativeItalic text term used by Christians, Jews, and Muslims for non-believers.
-- ThorLives ( talk) 05:23, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
You seem to miss the point, it is a "reclaimed" word, much like the black use of "the N word" or the terms "gay" and "queer". It is also a word that is shared across all Germanic languages used by the early Christians to describe the pre-Christian faith of the Germanic people. Pagan is from Latin and therefore rejected by many Heathens as a foreign word, Odinism implies monolatrism which for most Heathens is not the case (ironically including Odinists). Maybe you should look at http://odroerirjournal.com/ a journal written by Heathens expressing their own views, you will note that all the articles refer to Heathenry as the modern religion. Noddyt ( talk) 07:39, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
The journal mentioned above,
http://odroerirjournal.com/?page_id=52, has one issue and appears to be self-published and on-line only. **add** Unlike the following journals, Odroerir journal is peer reviewed, and the information contained within it appears to be consistent with academia, and not new age speculation.
More reputable journals are Vor Tru ("Vor Tru( Our Faith ) is the vanguard journal of the Old Norse and Germanic religion of Asatru and have been publishing since the 1980's, and are published by the Asatru Alliance. Check out also the OR Briefing, published since 1987, by the Odinic Rite. Check out Runestone, published by the Asatru Folk Assembly. These are venerable Asatru/Odinist publications and organizations and not personal blogs or one-shot "magazines."
The above statement regarding "more reputable journals" is misleading to downright wrong. Just because a collective has been pushing their own brand of "heathenism" for years doesn't make their journal "reputable", nor does pushing it on a discussion forum on wikipedia. Charging money for a journal doesn't make it reputable either. The information contained in Odroerir is much more fact based, and more adherent to academia than the previously mentioned journals. Odroerir's issue, at the moment is simply that it is new. It has however, received sponsorship from bigger groups including The Troth.
--
ThorLives (
talk)
08:18, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Absolutely Oppose Heathen since is is a pejorative term that is offensive. Although it is true that some subcultures, such as the Gay Community, have individuals that have adopted pejorative terms such as " Queer" as a badge of distinction, most have recognized it for what it is, a simple insult. The same applies to heathen. -- ThorLives ( talk) 21:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Whether or not individuals find the term "heathen" to be offensive shouldn't be taken into consideration for multiple reasons. The argument FOR "heathen" variants has a lot of support both in modern groups, and in acadamia. Consider these points. A) aside from Forn Sidr, or the names of individual germanic tribes, Heathen is the only term that was a naturally germanic term that was used to refer to prechristian germanic people. It appears first in Gothic but appears in Beowulf, Anglo Saxon Law, and in the Sagas, with a good example being the Death scene of Hakon the Good "To the Heathen Gods he fared", when he was buried "by heathens". B) It is still used and understood in Academic circles, particularly among medieval historians to refer to prechristian germanic people SPECIFICALLY. C) A large portion of modern heathens refer to themselves as heathen BECAUSE they are focused on reconstructing specific cultural and religious traditions that are referred to in academic texts as well as medieval sources as "heathen". The online journal Odroerir has already been mentioned, as has the Journal for Contemporary Heathen Thought. Both of these exemplify the very real existence of a very large group of people who refer to themselves as "heathen". It should ALSO be noted that these people tend to NOT approve of being called or lumped into an umbrella term of "Neopaganism". A) Paganism was never a term used to refer to the religion of the Germanic tribes by any medieval source during the period that heathenism existed. So to call them "pagan" is inaccurate. B) We must take into account modern umbrella terms and groups and how they associate...heathens have big issues with being lumped in with groups that identify as "pagan". Lastly-most heathens have an issue with being called "neo" anything. Because ALL of these terms being offered are nebulous, no one term will ever be fully agreed on, but between "pagan" and "heathen", heathen is used much more widely in germanic...."heathen" circles, and it is more consistent with acadamia and linguistics. There is no reason to use a latin term to refer to germanic traditions.
Also adding to the above argument-The Troth, both in their released books, their periodicals and at their website refer to themselves and those who practice the same religion as "heathen" and NOT pagan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.248.63.82 ( talk) 06:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Due to the above information, the most accurate and least offensive title for the page should be- "Contemporary Germanic Heathenism"
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i think "heathen" more falls into an insult category than a proper term; i think its offensive to the actual believers of Germanic Neopaganism. what i'm getting to is this: is "heathenism" a proper term or just a term used by regilious nuts who think theyre always right? its just that the use of those kinds of words could maybe be offensive to neopagans, and points-of-view arent supposed to be included in articles(i think) 69.229.8.83 ( talk) 03:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Now that a lot of 19th century Icelandic texts have been digitized it's become a lot easier to search for early uses of words. Here's the earliest I can find for Ásatrú:
In this case we have the genitive with the suffixed article, Ásatrúarinnar ("of the Ásatrú"). Haukur ( talk) 22:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
It is to this day common in Iceland, parts of Germany, England, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, to worship land-spirits and elves. It is relevant to modern day Asatru, because it i an unbroken, but evolved, tradition.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Odinsjarl ( talk • contribs)
Please provide a reference discussing animism in Asatru explicitly. If Asatru is an, "unbroken, but evolved, tradition", so is any other neopagan nrm. Please stop citing random eddaic stories in support of your claims regarding Asatru. Asatru is a product of 1970s counterculture in Iceland and the Anglosphere. You need to provide evidence of the practices of these circles of 1970s counter-culture people, not of the Vikings. We have a dedicated Norse paganism article for the historical religion. Of course it is a truism that reconstructionists will try to do whatever they conclude has been done in the historical religion. The point is that you need to cite evidence on what they conclude and how they implement it in a modern setting.
Fwiiw, I know about Icelandic Elf folklore. I have even visited the Icelandic Elf School once. The Icelanders are being facetious about their alleged belief in elves. Either way this is irrelevant to Asatru, since if the Icelandic population in general believes in elves, it isn't significant if the 0.4% Icelandic neopagans believe in elves. Your claim is that animism is more widespread in Asatru than in other neopagan tradtions. You have failed to present any sort of reference for that. I have also grave doubts as to your claim that "It is to this day common in Iceland, parts of Germany, England, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, to worship land-spirits and elves." You pick the Germanic-speaking countries of Europe. What is your evidence that the "worship land-spirits" is in any way more pronounced in these countries than in, say, rural Pakistan, rural Poland or rural Rwanda? -- dab (𒁳) 14:54, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I am not disputing that belief in elves etc. may be connected to animism, nor that there is animism in European folklore. There certainly is, as in any other folklore, or indeed in any of the world's cultures. I would clearly count animism in this broad sense as a human cultural universal. You may count yourself as an animist if you have ever caught yourself swearing at a computer or talking in pleading tones to a car that refused to start.
Precisely since "animism" is so universal, it would need excellent references to back up a claim that Germanic Neopagans are somehow more animistic than other neopagans, or indeed than Christians or atheists. -- dab (𒁳) 07:49, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
First of all, Asatru is not an “unbroken tradition” (hence the name germanic NEO-paganism) the belief in Elves and or land-spirits IS. There is no evidence to the contrary. I am not citing random Eddaic stories, due to the fact that I have not cited either of the Eddas. I cited the “Heimskringla” [1] , not the Eddas. You are not properly checking my work and citations. The references are not “random”, since they are dealing with the subject at hand. The first reference IS of a modern day book, which is used in the United States (by “the Troth”), England (by Ring of Troth) and Germany (by the Eldaring) as a book of beliefs, customs and rituals. [2] The chapter on “Alfs, Dwarves, Land-wights, and Huldfolk” quite clearly deal with what the beliefs are and how to make offering to these beings, based on past information. That is why I referenced it first. It would be ludacris to quote the entire chapter. Be it reconstructed or not, the fact is, modern day Asatru are worshipping these beings. The second reference deals with the historic background of the modern custom. A reference to the past answers the questions; where did they get it from and why is it more important to a Heathen as opposed to a Norse-Wiccan? Heathens are simply, more worried about “getting it right.” As to your question on why I only deal with the Germanic countries, pertaining to worship of elves etc., because this page is about “Germanic-Neopaganism”. The Kalash you mentioned are "pagan", not “Neopagan” and therefore not relevant. Neither are the Mursi of Africa, or the Onondaga, in New York. Wicca IS relevant, because it belongs to the “Neopangan” family of religions. If I want to prove Asatru is more animist than other Neopagan traditions, why should I involve religions that don't fall into that category? This makes no sense at all! To get back to the countries I mentioned, in the 19th and early 20th century people, “certainly had a widespread belief in beings like elves, trolls, nixes, huldras and so on, which IMO could translate as a kind of animism.” as "Berig" stated above. This is why the Brothers Grimm, more specifically Jacob Grimm could collect vast amounts of information (putting aside his interpretation of that information) in the 19th. Century, from people in rural areas that practised a folkloreistic worship of Elves, Kobolde, Dwarfs, etc., proving that the worship of Elves and therefore “animism” survived (to some extent) in Europe. The rural populations of these countries would not have had the resources to research “folkcustom” and revive it. This would be a ludacris assumtion. So therefore these customs must have survived but in an altered (evolved) form. Specifically the modern day Icelanders are more aware of these old customs, be it a facetious manner or not, the fact that they build their roads around places that are believed to be homes of Elves, proves that they are, at the very least, superstitious. The Thai people build houses for spirits they have displaced, the so called “ghost houses”. These are two approaches to the same problem. The Thais are not “Neopagan” so it is not relevant that they have a belief in these spirits. Compared to heathens, Wiccans take a more “Junginan” and mix and match approach to their gods. They are “just” archetypes, or aspects of the same god/goddess and not separate beings, as in Asatru. Wiccans are usually duotheistic, or pantheistic. These gods are present in everything, including nature. This is not my understanding of animism. By that definition Christianity would be animistic, because god is omnipresent. To quote the animism article you edited: "Religions which emphasize animism are mostly ethnic religions or folk religions, such as the various forms of Shamanism, Shinto, or certain currents of Hinduism." ( animism ) . As I have stated before Wicca is an immanent religion, meaning they can find god wherever they look. So if they wish to worship an elf, they can, but it is not essential and not a part of their “theology”. The horned god and mother goddess are the focal point and every god/goddess or being can be substituted into that position.( wicca ) Germanic Neopaganism is polytheistic and therefore pluralistic. All beings are separate form one another and therefore an elf is an elf and a god a god. They are not "archetypes", or interchangeable. ( http://www.heathengods.com/library/wicca_comparison/pentagram_and_the_hammer.pdf). Every modern Asatru book I have read, always has at least one chapter on the elves, because it is a essential part of the religion. Wiccan books do not. Giving offerings to the house-ghost is a part of the Asatru religion, much like it is to do so in Thailand. Again, it is NOT an essential part of Wicca, but it is an OPTION. This is why modern Asatru is “more” animistic than Wicca or other Neopagan religions. Odinsjarl ( talk) 14:47, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I think you are not paying attention.
You present a book by The Troth discussing "Alfs, Dwarves, Land-Wights, and Huldfolk".
So, feel free to state that The Troth, or if you like, Germanic Neopagans, believe in these beings.
Do not jump to conclusions and present claims regarding Germanic Neopaganism compared with other religions, or claims regarding "animism". This is a fallacy we call
WP:SYNTH. You start off by presenting one source, and then go on to make random claims not backed up by your source at all.
While I accept there is a relation between "animism" and the belief in nature-spirits such as elves, I do not think the two concepts may be equated. Elves are anthropomorphic. Animism is the belief in souls inherent in nature itself, e.g. trees or rocks. Now in cases where the claim goes that such and such a rock is inhabited by elves, I can see the connection to animism. The point remains that if you want to discuss animism in Germanic Neopaganism, you need to PRESENT A REFERENCE discussing, explicitly, animism in Germanic Neopaganism. Not a Troth book mentioning elves, not a story from the Icelandic sagas, but an explicit reference. This isn't asking too much, since by now there are a number of academic studies on Neopaganism. Consult one of those. If they don't mention animism, I do not think Wikipedia should. -- dab (𒁳) 15:04, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
to start you off, it is a good idea to go to google books and search for "animism" and "Neopaganism". You will get some 300 hits, including this and this. Both go to show animism has some significance in Neopaganism. Neither mentions Germanic Neopaganism in particular. In fact, searching for Asatru and animism gives just about 50 hits, of which none seem to use the terms in topical relation to one another. But I don't want to do your job for you. If you are interested in covering this topic, and I invite you to, go and do some research, and then come back with what you found. We are a community of encyclopedists here, not of essayists. -- dab (𒁳) 15:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I believe you are biased on this topic. I have proven that independently organised "germanic neopagans" in three different countries use a ritual book that deals specifically with the WORSHIP of elves (and not just the "belief in" elves) AND land-spirits (which are are NOT "anthropomorphic" and usually have animal-shape). This is defined as animism and there is nothing you can change about that. The book "Our Troth" deals with the practice of the Asatru and links it directly to animism. This is a "good source". The book does not just "mention" elves as you stated, your choice of words proving your bias on this topic.
Furthermore I have cited sources for the relationship of Wicca to their gods and nature, that clearly states that they see god in "everything", NOT as an independent soul/spirit (which would make it an animistic religion). You criticise elves as being "anthropomorphic", but you do not see, that land-spirits are also mentioned?
To sum things up: Asatru is animist, this animism is inspired by old sources (which you added, and I agree, even though the article clearly states that Asatru is reconstructionist), Wicca has animistic TENDENCIES, but is by self definition i.e. they are an "immanent religion" and therefore not an "animistic religion". I do not need a scientific study if both groups, by "self definition" agree with this. This is not: "Synthesis occurs when an editor puts together multiple sources to reach a conclusion that is not in any of the sources." It is stating a fact, with sources, that both groups agree to. There is even a comparison of Wicca and "polytheists" in the animism article. It clearly states how Wiccans use the term "animism". These "polytheist" (and Asatru are polytheists) see these spirits as separate "individuals", which is closer to the definition of animism given at the top of the article. Please read the section "Currently" 2nd. paragraph animism .Please do not change the facts to suit your own assumptions, which is, what I feel, you are doing.
I do need to apologize for citing the wrong paragraph as a source on the website ( http://www.eldaring.de/readarticle.php?article_id=6#III3). It was III. part 3.that states they have an "animistic world view". Odinsjarl ( talk) 17:00, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I never denied Asaru has "an animistic worldview". That's fine. If you have a source saying "immanent religion and therefore not an animistic religion", or even just "not an animistic religion" on Wicca, let's see it.
Understand this: WP:SYNTH says, if you're going to claim "X is animistic", you'll need a source stating "X is animistic", not a source discussing land-spirits, another source saying land-spirits tend to be theriomorphic, and a third source mentioning animism and theriomorphic spirits in the same paragraph or chapter. Ok? Your Eldaring reference is saying (from the German),
This goes for a statement that
It does not go for a claim that
or indeed
Is this really so difficult to understand? If you cannot follow this explanation, I would ask you to please write in a blog instead of editing encyclopedic articles.
Well, you'll not be able to complain that I didn't take the time to explain WP:SYNTH to you, or what is expected from you when you edit articles. You are welcome to continue editing, but you will note that you will tend to be reverted if your argument is pieced together or goes beyond what your sources state. -- dab (𒁳) 17:08, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
The source was for an earlier discusson, when you stated I need a source, that states Asatru is animist. It was not in reference to Wicca and which is "more" animistic. I just re-checked some of the things I wrote and noticed it. When I make a mistake, I say it.
I understand what you are saying and I think it is because you don't agree (or find elves "silly"), so you want a source for every statement. Pertaining to Wicca and animism, yes they do use the word, but as it states in the animism article they use a broader definition of the term. Asatru is more conservative in the use of the word. I think we can agree to that. Odinsjarl ( talk) 17:39, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
You are correct, you have spent a lot of time with this, it was unfair of me to question your motivation, and I apologize for that. It was not right of me and I thank you for your patience.
In the article I wrote I never stated that Asatru is "more" animistic than Wicca. It is something you requested, to be allowed to add "Germanic Neopagnaism" to the animism article, despite Wicca explicitly being a part of that article. To quote you from the animism disussion: "Of course, all neopagan flavours attempt to revive historical animism, but there is nothing to suggest that Germanic neopaganism does this more than others." Historical animism? How do eclectic Wiccans try to revive "historical animism"? I would like your source for this.
To end this I will change the animism page, so that germanic neopagnaism is merely used as an example of neopagans that DO practice a form of animism based on historic paganism. Is this okay? Odinsjarl ( talk) 23:25, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
thanks. Here's to fruitful collaboration in the future. -- dab (𒁳) 13:34, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Qualified the section on "Blót" under Rites, to prevent some misunderstanding. The blót is performed outside of the homestead, and "garb" isn't required.
Also corrected "is are" to "are."
GeminiDomino 14:08, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I am a bit hesitant to agree with the addition of the berserkrgang being linked with seidh. The 'how' of a berserkr being what he/she is in past centuries is still a hot topic for speculation and debate between scholars of Scandinavian history. Do you have some lore texts you can cite for that reference in the article in order to support it, Dieter? I can pull out my notes on the subject and do so myself, but if you have them handy and get to it before I can, please feel free. You might have some I do not have, and vice-versa. P.MacUidhir 20:03, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Gnostic Lore: Thor and many other (G)gods (no GotterDammering!) were quite concerned with the development of the nuclear age. They witnessed the effects first hand and became very vigil. I was aware of the Thor Missile Program at that Time (precursor to the Atlas Program and at one Time, there was a stray Thor Missile that entered a foreign land). It came to a point that Thor had stood in one place so long that he had become a Mountain, yet he could leave this position at any Time (either large or small). I suggested to Him to go take a bath in the Creek and go yonder to the West to a Church and get new clothes; I never asked Him what Church, but He did return with White Linen. He had gained a new outlook. He would still Vanquish the Earth.
Gnostics 04:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
What. D Boland ( talk) 02:32, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Huh, kind of! In the section Ethics a certain thau is mentioned:
What are those "tribes"? (Clarification needed). It is possible to conclude from the paragraph that those "Theodish groups" are organized into "tribes", which are factually not "tribes" in the ordinary sense, since westerners aren't organized in tribes proper. The last paragraph of section Ethics might reflect some truth, but it is confused by introducing terms without proper explanation. ... said: Rursus ( bork²) 11:50, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes... I think this is
Theodism vocabulary, a rather less than notable subset of US Asatru, which nevertheless has a bunch of self-published books to quote from. They have thew, a word that the
OED labels obsolete, giving the defintion " A custom, usage, general practice (e.g. of a people, community, or class)."
I don't know why thew should be spelled thau here. As a rule, garbled passages should be deleted from neopaganism articles on sight unless they are clearly attributed to some source. --
dab
(𒁳)
17:54, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
The paragraph is about Neo-Nazis. Not only is "far right" not mentioned, but the page that the subheader links to assigns both "far right" and "far left" to the idea of racialism. To meet some kind of compromise, instead of the misleading "far right" (which generally implies conservative, at which point the discussion becomes "what is conservative neopaganism"), it's much clearer to call it "racialism" or "neo nazis". This is what the discussion is about in this paragraph. If we don't want to discuss Neo-Nazis, fine, lets call it racialism.
well, I do not feel strongly about this, but I would like to point out that you can certainly be on the far-right without being a Neo-Nazi. Neo-Nazis are generally losers who like to decorate their rooms with Third Reich paraphernalia. The far-right has moved beyond that, you do not recognize a member of the Nouvelle Droite from their collection of SS daggers. And yes, the Nouvelle Droite has everything to do with neopaganism, see GRECE. There is also the wider topic of Neofascism which also does not necessarily ally itself with Neo-Nazism, "88" graffiti and swastika tattoos. Neofascism has completely shed the Nazi iconography and terminology. It now calls itself things like " radical traditionalism. -- dab (𒁳) 16:31, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Although I won't be editing this article, I've found this which looks useful. Dougweller ( talk) 17:59, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
since this US-specific, the Asatru in the United States article may be a better venue for the topic. -- dab (𒁳) 18:05, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Regarding this, I suggest mention along these lines. There is, of course, no merit to the "founded in 1421" claim, but as with Gardner it is impossible to tell whether Mirabello made it up himself, or whether he genuinely believed the story told to him by somebody who made it up. Not that it really matters. This is part of the 1990s history of the "second revival of Germanic neopaganism", and I suggest it deserves a brief mention here. I know of no indication that any Odin Brotherhood exists in any real sense. Anybody and their grandmothers can of course create facebook groups, wordpress blogs and the like with the title, but that doesn't qualify as "reference" in our sense. -- dab (𒁳) 19:43, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
This section of the article is headed as 'Asatru and Racism' but only discusses Odinist extremism.
This is a significantly misleading title. Asatru as a term is used to describe a follower of the Aesir Gods, whilst Odinism is its own category. This section should be retitled as 'Odinism and Racism', as there is not evidence cited of such racism in any Asatru organisation. This is a small change but will reflect the content of this section 100%.
I would also propose the moving of the quote from the White Order of Thule 'Felton and Chase' prosecution in the US. I had not heard of this, but having reviewed the White Order of Thule wiki page they do not meet the classification of Germanic Neopagan. According to the this page they 'followed pre-Christian beliefs as represented by the ancient Celts, Norse, Greeks, Slavs, Romans and other ancient Indo-European peoples'. This is not the definition of Germanic Neopaganism as it includes Greek and Roman beliefs, and is unfairly tarring the germanic neopagan page (there is now no separate page for Asatru in its own right) with the brush of US domestic extremism and racism. As the linked page does not meet the definition of Asatru, it should not be included here. It belongs on the neovolkish page, not Asatru or germanic neopaganism. Indeed, the White Order of Thule page itself refers readers onto the neo fascism page, not here.
Furthermore, the FBI report is into domestic threats in the year 2000. This report does not concern itself with groups who do not attach a special significance to the year 2000, and that caveat is clearly written in the executive summary of the report. Why then is it the permanent tag line to the section on racism in Asatru? The year 2000 has been and gone. Intelligence has a shelf life, and that report was specific to 1999. It is now 2011. I will add the much more strongly worded caveat that the report itself provides that states it does not refer to organisations without a Y2K issue . This is critical, as it is not listed anywhere on this article as an issue for any neopagans, and the year 2000 is/was not a significant date for any of the groups on the page.
And the section mentions Robert Jay Mathews - upon consulting his wiki page he is both deceased as of 1984 (hence pre-dating most of the organisations listed on this page) but also was a mormon and then a white supremacist. It makes no mention of any Odinist or otherwise neopagan beliefs. Again, the inclusion of this fact is not corroborated elsewhere, but adds a massive taint to the germanic neopaganism page.
These are basic categorisation errors that are giving this page a heavy slant towards extremist views.
Erghiez1985 (
talk)
00:02, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
I have now made these changes as discussed. I have also added a section to state that the Asatru Alliance and The Troth are not Odinist organisations, as the current article implies that they are. I've also added the sections from these organisations' charters in which they explicitly state they reject racism, to give the article more balance.
Erghiez1985 ( talk) 15:55, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
This section claims to set out the beliefs of Germanic Neopaganism, however it lists a quote from an Odinist organisation calling it 'the first creedal statement of Germanic heathen beliefs'. This claim is not referenced, and by making the statement it implies that this creed is somehow a good summary of the whole. It is not - it is a summary of Odinist beliefs.
This particular section does not do justice to any of the other religious groups who fall under this wiki category of germanic neopaganism. Asatru organisations have their own belief statements for example, and the Troth, Asatru Folk Assembly and Asatru Alliance all have more modern and moderate mission statements, statements of ethics and so on. These are significantly more moderate than the language used in this Melbourne creed (which mentions 'holy nations of Odin', sacred blood, blasphemers and traitors being renounced etc etc). If you are trying to capture a belief statement of the germanic religions and give an objective view on the beliefs of these religious groups, then using the international organisations such as the three mentioned above makes more sense and is more balanced. If not exclusively, then they need to have their own beliefs stated for balance, otherwise this section is just 'Odinist beliefs' and further to my above post will suggest that all Germanic Neopagans subscribe to this Odinist creed. To stress again, they do not.
This article is combining 4 or 5 strands of germanic neopaganism into one page, and then trying to impose commonalities where they do not exist. There is a significant volume of information on the actual beliefs and practices of these religious groups out there, and if this page is going to try and lump these branches of heathenry together it needs to do it properly and accurately, or not at all and separate them out into distinct articles in their own right.
Erghiez1985 ( talk) 20:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm a little concerned that some elements of this article appear to tip over the POV line a little. One section that caught my eye read:
"Such connections between northern heathenism and racism are tenuous at best. The double-standard of racism seems only to apply to "White" people, as nearly every ethnic group has organizations celebrating their heritage (e.g., MEChA)."
I've removed this, though I've tried to tune the section above it so that the point is preserved (that no act of terrorism has ever been attributed to an Odinist group).
I'm aware that Asatru/Odinism/Norse Heathenism does have an issue with its unwarranted association with racism and white supremacism; however the above comment ("double-standard") was a personal assertion and not something that adds to the article. It may or may not be true, but it's still POV. Obviously if we can find a quotation from someone relevant and notable, there'd be nothing to stop this going back in as a quote. - Silvensis ( talk) 12:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
I think it might be good to take the "neo" out of this article. The main "Neopaganism" article has been changed to Paganism (contemporary religions), so related articles probably should reflect that. Also, in my experience at least, the majority of people practicing Germanic religions (as well as other culturally specific European religions; Celtic, Roman, Hellenic, etc.) do not refer to themselves as "Neopagans." I think changing it to "Germanic Paganism (contemporary religions)" would reflect the population better, while still being broad enough to include Reconstructionists and Germanic-focused eclectics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WarriorPrincessDanu ( talk • contribs) 15:55, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
I also agree with Bhlegkorbh that Heathenism would be a more appropriate term for this page. Heathen is being used primarily by those that this article defines, with Asatru and other such names coming in as a close second. Germanic Neopaganism is incorrect for many reasons, not all Heathens feel they are Germanic, Pagan is a term used less and less frequently by those that follow these faiths, and the Neo part wouldn't apply in any case. Olaf.i44 ( talk) 22:14, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Why have the massive changes taken place? They appear to be removing references and replacing them with questionable references, and unexplained reorganizing that doesn't appear to have the same flow that the article had. - Sudo Ghost 20:53, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
I mention this just because I've edited a link from this article: the above section described Firne Sitte as "Upper German, Austria and Switzerland-based". I've changed this to "Germany, Austria and Switzerland-based" because as I can see, Upper German only links to a language dialect whereas the others are countries. So this now points to Germany rather than Upper German. - Silvensis ( talk) 12:15, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Frisians are not in any way, shape or form "modern descendants" of the Franks, as this article stated before I changed it. Please do not make this mistake again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.61.230.65 ( talk) 13:04, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm not really familiar with the religions of Europe, but it seems to me that the terms Heathen and Pagan are both a description of what they aren't (Abrahamic) rather than what they are, which is understandable in the sense that the idea of separating religious belief from cultural belief was something that only large empires such as the Persians and Romans had to contend with. Being named for something that you aren't, to me, appears either reactive or pejorative, depending upon who it was that coined the term.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathen#Heathen Both "pagan" and "heathen" have historically been used as a pejorative by adherents of monotheistic religions (such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam) to indicate a disbeliever in their religion.
I guess that my contention is that by accepting these terms, one is taking a reactive stance to another set of beliefs, and by doing so, one is creating a strong relationship - a bond - with those other beliefs. It appears obvious that some religious beliefs are inherently bonded to Abrahamic religions - especially those who share the same theology (e.g. Satanism), but for others there is no such inherent bond, and it sits uncomfortably with me to address those people of faith using a negative connotation.
My personal beliefs are Buddhist, and even the term 'Buddhist' is pretty much a neologism - the self-designated term for a Buddhist is 'insider', but within the context of the world, 'insider' isn't going to work, and at least 'Buddhism' is an assertive name indicating a correlating relationship with Buddha. I feel a sense of brethrenship with those who follow the old religious beliefs of Europe, but I do not wish to base that relationship on the grounds that we are both not Abrahamic. Also, for me to say 'my friend Knut is a heathen' - is not descriptive; as, by definition, I also am a pagan. Following the negative inclusion construction, I would need to say something like 'my friend Knut is a heathen outsider' - but he could still be a Hindu, a Sikh, a Taoist, Shinto... ( 20040302 ( talk) 09:45, 19 October 2011 (UTC))
This page was renamed on 21 September 2011 and some time after that the following two posts were placed on my talk page. I'm reposting them here as I think this is where the discussion belongs. I will add my response below.
I have no view right now on the right title for the page (I'll do some researching and try and form one!) However I do think the page move was hasty and not done with any kind of consensus. The edit summary of the page move on 21 Sept says "per talk page" but the brief entry above for that date doesn't constitute a clear proposal for a move, still less a consensus. I'm not going to revert the move at this stage but Blegkorbh can you be a bit less hasty with moves in future? (Also, please could you edit logged in? It's hard to keep track of who contributes what if you don't - apologies if this is problematic for you.) Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 20:22, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
Please Restore page to the NEUTRAL Heading of Germanic Neopaganism.
The editor Bhlegkorbh represents a small group in America with eight members. They are here
The primary definition of heathen is an irreligious or bad person See defintion here.
Bhlegkorbh has gone across wikipedia changing pagan references to "heathen" in order to direct Internet traffic to his small group. I respect his zeal, but wikipedia needs articles under "neutral" terms.
He also reverses my edits on referring to the movement as Odinism or Asatru in the introductory paragraph. The largest groups, such as Odinic Rite, Asatru Alliance, and the Asatru Folk Assembly use those names.
Amazon book search for Asatru:
Amazon book search for Odinism:
Amazon Book search for Heathenism (mainly used in the sense of atheist or primitive people)
Germanic Neopaganism is a neutral term and does not support any particular group. Please return this page to a neutral heading.
Note. DBachman, as an administrator who has posted under Germanic Neopaganism, could you help here?
Also, a note, I did indeed post under OdinicRite, but I was asked to stop.
Thank you.
-- ThorLives ( talk) 00:09, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
An additional point, Bhlegkorbh says the name change was discussed here, but the discussion has nothing to do with calling the movement heathenism.
Generally speaking, Americans prefer Asatru, the British prefer Odinism, and people who wanted to emphasize Anglo-Saxon traditions refer to Theodism, and Americans who wanted to emphasize German traditions, as opposed to Scandinavian ones, call it Heathenism.
Since all these names have a focus, the Generic word Paganism works best, in my opinion.
Again, we need a neutral and comprehensive term to reflect all movements.
-- ThorLives ( talk) 05:55, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Another example of systematic changes--they are all over in the recent period.
-- ThorLives ( talk) 06:03, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
I have already written that I am NOT a member of the Jotun Bane Kindred, the Heathen Nation, the Heathen Alliance, Heathen House, Heathens For Progress, Heathens Against Hate, or the other TENS of groups that use the term Heathenism, and besides I am NOT American at all (and my IPs witness this). Your statements are inane bias.
Then, the Odinic Rite, the Asatru Alliance and the Asatru Folk Assembly represent different organizations of BRANCHES of Heathenism, they're not Heathenry per se. American Asatru is a totally different thing from Scandinavian Heathenism, it's different from Urglaawe, it's different from Fyrnsidu, etc.
Regarding the preference of the term "Heathenism" over "Germanic Neopaganism" I repeat for the umpteenth time that the first has penetrated the Heathen populations and is used by Heathens THEMSELVES both in America (you can even find an article about Heathenry in Canada) and Europe, it's not representative of a single organization. Moreover its used is supported by TENS of authoritative sources and academical studies, and even by Heathen organizations themselves (and not just one as you say). -- Bhlegkorbh ( talk) 14:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Examples of academic works and authoritative sources using the term "Heathenry":
With all due respect to Ms Stephens, her paper appears to a simple post on a blog.
Is this a good source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThorLives ( talk • contribs) 01:08, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
-- ThorLives ( talk) 01:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Heathenism. The term, that covers all of them is Heathenism.")
PS. I notice that the page you've linked above for the Amazon Book Search of "Heathenism" is the SECOND one. If you look the first one you find: Perceived Heathenism & Odinic Prayer: A Book of Heathen Prayer and Direct Contact with Our Living Gods and Odinism: Inside the Belly of the Beast: Essays on Heathenism by Wyatt Kaldenberg, Germanic Heathenry: A Practical Guide by James Coulter, Hanging From the Tree: Living with the Runes by Scott Allen Mohnkern and Emily McDonell. If you look for Heathenry you find tens of books on Germanic Paganism, and even publications of The Journal of Contemporary Heathen Thought. -- Bhlegkorbh ( talk) 15:22, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
I support the name Germanic Neopaganism. The internal name used by the community is not the name commonly used to refer to it overall.--~ T P W 19:43, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree with DBachmann that Germanic Neopaganism is the best name. I have been involved in Odinism for decades, and I would prefer that name for this article, but I understand that wikipedia has to use neutral terms and it must promote consensus terms.
There are groups who use Odinist in their titles. Their are groups who use Asatru in their titles. Their are groups who use Heathen in their titles. Their are groups that use Theodism in their titles. But no one uses "Germanic Neopaganism" in their titles, so that makes it a neutral term
-- ThorLives ( talk) 06:10, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
The term "Germanic Neopaganism" is not perfect as it has several problems. Many Asatruers reject the term "pagan" and prefer "heathen" instead. Then there is the question of the "neo" prefix that is also contested. // Liftarn ( talk)
Bhlegkorbh, can you provide a reliable source that supports your assertion that "ALL of these groups and most of their members use the term "Heathenism/-ry" when speaking about the whole movement without a focus on the specific organisations?" If you could I would support it, but clearly there are groups and individuals which do not use the term in the way you describe. If we could get away from describing the naming practices in absolute terms where none exist, a suitable name would be much easier to determine.--~ T P W 13:22, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Political or Religious Bias? I am concerned that this page believes that in the UK people prefer the term "Odinism" over "Heathenry", this is not the case as in the UK "Odinism" refers only to the beliefs of the Odinic Rite. Such on-line groups as UKHeathenry and real world events such as Heathenfest only identify as Heathen with many members actively distancing themselves from Odinism and the OR. I am also concerned that this page in it's reflection of the current state of Heathenry in the UK is biased and untrue in that it previous had links to groups that were not affiliated to the Odinic Rite and these have all been removed. Is this page being used as a promotional tool for the OR in the UK? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noddyt ( talk • contribs) 08:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I support Yngvadottir idea for the title to be "Heathenry (Modern)" with the two redirects. I'm member of the Pagan press, PNC, with a degree in journalism, membership in a journalistic association, and have worked in mainstream news (ABC affiliate) for most of my adult life. I'm currently writing the stylebook for Pagan media and "Heathen" is the term used when a non-denominational term for Contemporary Nordic Pagans is needed. Contemporary Nordic Paganism is the term used by scholars, but no one outside of academia uses that term. As an aside, the term Neo-Paganism is falling out of academic use and is replaced with the term Contemporary Paganism, although Pagan is the term used within the community. Wikipedia has noted this and the page on Neo-Paganism is now "Paganism (contemporary)" so at the very least, this page's title should drop the "Neo". When we write about our community as a whole, we use the phrase "Pagans, Heathens, and polytheists" as it is inclusive while not offensive. There have been many sources listed which note Heathen is the generally inclusive used term. Disclosures: I was asked to take a look at this discussion as I am in the Pagan media, but was not lobbied for any specific position. I am not a Heathen, but a Hellenian (Hellenic Pagan). CaraSchulz ( talk) 16:11, 23 November 2011 (UTC)CaraSchulz
I see the article has deteriorated in other respects. There used to be a discussion of synonyms of "Germanic Neopaganism" as used within the movement.
This has now been conflated with an attempt at discussing "branches" of the movement. The result is a mess. The current article suggests that "Forn Siðr" has the sub-branches "Ásatrú, Vanatrú, Rökkatrú", while there are separate branches of "Fyrnsidu" and "Firno Situ and Firne Sitte". This is utter nonsense. Can you please either fix it, or restore it the way it was before this gallery of obscure terms became presented as a "list of branches"?
The fact of the matter is that Forn Siðr, Fyrnsidu and Firno Situ are exact and conscious translations of one another, and represent one single "branch", or rather approach within Germanic Neopaganism. It is bizarre to present these separately. -- dab (𒁳) 07:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Without trying to offend anyone, I agree that the article is now a bit of a mess. Instead of being a clear description of a religious movement, with its history, theology, ethics, eschatology, rituals, and so forth, it has been refashioned to make a rhetotical point, that somehow everything is a subset of heathenry.
-- ThorLives ( talk) 05:58, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
As I have mentioned elsewhere, I have been involved with Odinism for decades, and I would NEVER use the word heathen to describe my religion.
Now, it may be my socio-economic class ( I have silver hair and I wear suits in my profession), but if I went to a party in lower Manhattan I would feel foolish calling myself a "heathen." "Heathen" is not a name of a religion; it was an insult hurled at the friends of the old gods by the Christians. It simply means "country dweller," but in a negative way ("hick" or "redneck").
I know teenagers trying to torment their parents or prisoners trying to irritate the Christian chaplain may like "heathen" for the "shock effect," but I think my religion should have respectability.
"Odinism" is in the Oxford dictionary and has been in use since the 19th century. Asatru is a name developed in the 1970's, but at least it means something honorable, which is "trust in the Aesir."
-- ThorLives ( talk) 08:47, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
The Asatru Alliance is the large Germanic neopagan group in North America, and I do not see any reference to heathen on their web site.
-- ThorLives ( talk) 01:17, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
True Pagan Warrior, I do not have exact numbers, but the Odinic Rite, the Asatru Alliance, and the Asatru Folk Assebly are the largest groups, at least in the English-speaking world. Groups such as the Heathen Temple and the Heathen Alliance have 4-8 members each
--
ThorLives (
talk)
20:13, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
For reasons that I've included in my recent edit summaries, it seems pretty evident to me that this article needs nothing less than a rewrite from the ground up. For anyone with the time for the task, please see Wikipedia:Good_article_criteria and Wikipedia:Manual of Style for handy guides for standards to rewrite an article with. I understand that there's an issue with academia on this subject; academic works mentioning Germanic Neopaganism frequently either misrepresent the subject matter or are bizarrely silent on the subject (Orchard's recent Poetic Edda translation comes to mind), but this article simply cannot exist on the foundation that it is currently propped up on. For an example of a Germanic Neopaganism-related article done right, see our article on the Ásatrúarfélagið. :bloodofox: ( talk) 18:02, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Bloodofox, thank you for your action.
May I suggest that we take the front of the article from 22 July 2010 (the material up through "Theology and Cosmology") and place it on this article? It would clean out a great deal of the rhetoric and would eliminate many self-published references.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Germanic_Neopaganism&diff=374920743&oldid=374920711 (Article from 22 July 2010)
-- ThorLives ( talk) 01:09, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a reference work and it needs clear and concise articles. The Germanic Neopaganism page was once nominated for a "good article" award, but now there is a call for a complete re-write. Conclusion: the latest edits have degraded the article. -- ThorLives ( talk) 01:56, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Bloodofox,I now see the problem that you are identifying: using web sites and self-published books as "sources" violates wikipedia policy. But, to help the new article, could YOU (since you have expertise here) delete all bad material in this old version so that we could use it to rebuild? |old article (Article from 22 July 2010) -- ThorLives ( talk) 22:45, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree the article needs a rewrite now. Now it has been turned into a sad mess, I mean. I am happy to be informed that User:Bhlegkorbh does not think it is a mess, but frankly this doesn't say as much about the article as about this particular editor. A lot of thought went into the toc of the article. It was never finished, and improvement was always welcome and necessary. But to simply destroy a carefully balanced toc structure is a sure way to take a good article down the drain entirely. So, instead of calling for a "complete rewrite", which may or may not happen by 2015 or 2020, meanwhile leaving the current state as the "consensus version"(!), how about simply reverting to the last good (though incomplete) revision and take it from there? There can still be a rewrite as soon as somebody (qualified) gets round to doing that, but in the meantime I see no reason to simply accept article deterioration as a fact of life when it's as simple as reverting to before things started to go downhill. -- dab (𒁳) 14:25, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I propose the last stable version was that of 18 July. Because after that, the article was taken to town by a massive flurry of anonymous edits, needless to say all of it without consensus. I am not saying there were no good edits after 18 July. I am saying the article has lost all stability since then, and if we want to get it back on track we need to go back to the last stable version. Individual edits that actually improved the article can obviously be inserted back in.
I invoke WP:BRD here: People were Bold, now I have Reverted. Now, based on the stable version Reverted to, there needs to be Discussion. -- dab (𒁳) 14:29, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
DBachmann, thanks for reverting the article. I see Bloodofox's point, about a rewrite, but it is easier to improve something that exists (like the Soyuz spacecraft) than junking something and building new (the space shuttle and its replacement). -- ThorLives ( talk) 23:22, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I continue the discussion here and copy some previous messages since ThorLives / OdinicRite has recently reverted the article to a one-year old incomplete version with his new sockpuppet ignoring such discussion.-- Bhlegkorbh ( talk) 17:38, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Bhlegkorbh, can you provide a reliable source that supports your assertion that "ALL of these groups and most of their members use the term "Heathenism/-ry" when speaking about the whole movement without a focus on the specific organisations?" If you could I would support it, but clearly there are groups and individuals which do not use the term in the way you describe. If we could get away from describing the naming practices in absolute terms where none exist, a suitable name would be much easier to determine.--~ T P W 13:22, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Political or Religious Bias? I am concerned that this page believes that in the UK people prefer the term "Odinism" over "Heathenry", this is not the case as in the UK "Odinism" refers only to the beliefs of the Odinic Rite. Such on-line groups as UKHeathenry and real world events such as Heathenfest only identify as Heathen with many members actively distancing themselves from Odinism and the OR. I am also concerned that this page in it's reflection of the current state of Heathenry in the UK is biased and untrue in that it previous had links to groups that were not affiliated to the Odinic Rite and these have all been removed. Is this page being used as a promotional tool for the OR in the UK? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noddyt ( talk • contribs) 08:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Personally I see no problems with using the title "Germanic Neopaganism" or "Heathenry" for this page, what is important as far as this goes is that both these search terms will result in this page being displayed as Heathenry is much wider used word than Germanic Neopaganism. I am very concerned however that this page gives a completely unbalanced, in fact untruthful, picture of the state of Heathenry in the UK by making it appear that only the Odinic Rite exist in the UK. One has to ask if the recent edits of this page are to promote one person's political or religious ideas by hiding other groups and ideas. Noddyt ( talk) 08:10, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Germanic NeoPaganism is problematic as a title for the following reasons: 1. "NeoPaganism" as a title isn't used on Wikipedia anymore and was changed to "Paganism(contemporary)" so NeoPaganism shouldn't be used in this title, either. 2. Germanic is a limiting, less inclusive term as there are more branches of this religion than purely German. For example, there is Gaelic or Celtic Heathenry which has roots in pre-Christian Scotland. [3] There is also Slavic Heathenry, which has roots in Russia, Poland, Czech Republic, Ukraine, Byelorussia, Serb-Croatia, Macedonia, Slovenia, Bulgaria. [4] I include those links not as reliable sources, but to show there are religious adherents that are outside of the strict Germanic boundaries that the title "Germanic NeoPaganism" would limit us to. They have real differences, such a primary deities worshiped, but have similar customs, practices, and all have a strong foundation of ancestor veneration which makes them a branch of the same religion rather than a separate religion. CaraSchulz ( talk) 20:15, 23 November 2011 (UTC)CaraSchulz
My suggestion - "Heathenry(contemporary)" with redirects. When talking about our connected communities a standard phrase is emerging "Pagans, Heathens, and polytheists" or "Pagans and Heathens." Here is a Washington Post On Faith Column - a column devoted to talking about matters of religion - "Reason and temperance were championed throughout the ancient pagan societies, and are still valued today by Pagans, Heathens, and polytheists who claim inspiration and lineage from these great civilizations." [5] I believe that, combined with the BBC source, shows Heathen is trending as a term that people inside and outside the religion are using as an umbrella term. Also note: The Wild Hunt, which is a blog for the related religious communities, has been using "Pagans and Heathens" as a standard phrase. Although it is a blog and not a reliable source, it is a very influential blog that is widely read by nonPagans and nonHeathans and is often cited and quoted by the mainstream media and used as a source. In a Google search of just The Wild Hunt using "Pagan and Heathen" it returns 3740 hits. [6] And he uses the phrase, "My semi-regular round-up of articles, essays, and opinions of note for discerning Pagans and Heathens" as standard for his news round-ups. 97.92.17.94 ( talk) 15:25, 24 November 2011 (UTC)CaraSchulz
I posted this below but I'll post it here as well with an additional note..To the above comment of "If I see evidence that all of these (in reference to heathen groups) refer to themselves as heahten then i will support it)." The problem with this is that the term itself is nebulous, and anyone and his brother can form a group and either say he is or isn't heathen. By that same token I guarantee you we can find more support in the "heathen" communities for the term "heathen" than the "Neopagan" that is currently up there. To be blunt, very few heathens refer to themself as "neopagan". Now-
Whether or not individuals find the term "heathen" to be offensive, or if they personally want to use it shouldn't be taken into consideration for multiple reasons. The argument FOR "heathen" variants has a lot of support both in modern groups, and in acadamia, and we find more support for the use of the term "heathen" in big groups (This is seriously faulty thinking by the way-if you think the so called "Major/National Organizations" represent the majority of heathenism your wrong.) than we do for the word "neopagan". Consider these points. A) aside from Forn Sidr, or the names of individual germanic tribes, Heathen is the only term that was a naturally germanic term that was used to refer to prechristian germanic people. It appears first in Gothic but appears in Beowulf, Anglo Saxon Law, and in the Sagas, with a good example being the Death scene of Hakon the Good "To the Heathen Gods he fared", when he was buried "by heathens". B) It is still used and understood in Academic circles, particularly among medieval historians to refer to prechristian germanic people SPECIFICALLY. C) A large portion of modern heathens refer to themselves as heathen BECAUSE they are focused on reconstructing specific cultural and religious traditions that are referred to in academic texts as well as medieval sources as "heathen". The online journal Odroerir has already been mentioned, as has the Journal for Contemporary Heathen Thought. Both of these exemplify the very real existence of a very large group of people who refer to themselves as "heathen". It should ALSO be noted that these people tend to NOT approve of being called or lumped into an umbrella term of "Neopaganism". A) Paganism was never a term used to refer to the religion of the Germanic tribes by any medieval source during the period that heathenism existed. So to call them "pagan" is inaccurate. B) We must take into account modern umbrella terms and groups and how they associate...heathens have big issues with being lumped in with groups that identify as "pagan". Lastly-most heathens have an issue with being called "neo" anything. Because ALL of these terms being offered are nebulous, no one term will ever be fully agreed on, but between "pagan" and "heathen", heathen is used much more widely in germanic...."heathen" circles, and it is more consistent with acadamia and linguistics. There is no reason to use a latin term to refer to germanic traditions.
Also adding to the above argument-The Troth, both in their released books, their periodicals and at their website refer to themselves and those who practice the same religion as "heathen" and NOT pagan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.248.63.82 (talk) 06:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Due to the above information, the most accurate and least offensive title for the page should be- "Contemporary Germanic Heathenism" -So I agree with the above opinion that it should be called Heathenism (Contemporary). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.248.63.82 ( talk) 07:36, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Once again, the questionable sources are returning.
A forum with 72 posters:
The Journal of Contemporary Heathen Thought which has one issue and is self-published (CreateSpace)
-- ThorLives ( talk) 05:27, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
The BBC page is most certainly a credible external link, it was written by Jenny Blain and the members of the APT and UKHeathenry Yahoo! Group which has 411 members representing most of the kindreds, hearths and other Heathen groups in the UK including the Troth UK. These people refer to their faith as Heathenry not Odinism which I must continue to hammer home is actually a modern subset of Heathenry not vice-versa. Noddyt ( talk) 13:01, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
We've been discussing the best name for this page for more than a week now and I'm going to suggest that we draw it to a close and ask for a decision from an uninvolved editor at WP:RM. In 24 hours or so from this timestamp, I will place a template at the bottom of this page which will place such a request. It's usual for people to suggest what the preferred new name should be, but in this case I'm not going to do that; instead I will ask the reviewing editor to look through this whole page and review the alternatives before coming to a decision.
So there are 24 hours for (a) people to object to this procedure, if they think it's the wrong way of deciding and (b) to add any final arguments (or even better - new sources) that have not so far been mentioned.
In respect of (a): please object to this procedure now if you know you are likely to be unwilling to abide by the result - whatever it is. There's no point getting someone to trawl through our discussions if we are simply going to ignore them if they choose the "wrong" title.
In respect of (b): please could I ask people NOT to simply restate arguments that have already been made; the reviewing editor will have enough to read and will not be impressed by people repeating arguments that have already been made. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 20:59, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Germanic Neopaganism → ? – A range of alternative names for this article have been suggested throughout this talk page. They include:
The last few have been least strongly suggested. There has been a certain amount of strong feeling here about this and in my view a consensus has not emerged. Hence this request to WP:RM. Any independent editor reviewing this will need to do a certain amount of link-following from the various wikilinks and external links above, for which effort we apologise and thank you in advance! If the reviewing editor/s is/are unfamiliar with the topic, it might be worth reviewing the family of articles linked from Paganism (contemporary) to get some context and look at how naming has been handled elsewhere in this topic area. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 20:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Heathen in the Oxford English Dictionary:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/heathen?region=us#m_en_us1254086.012
Note that the word is primarily a pejorativeItalic text term used by Christians, Jews, and Muslims for non-believers.
-- ThorLives ( talk) 05:23, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
You seem to miss the point, it is a "reclaimed" word, much like the black use of "the N word" or the terms "gay" and "queer". It is also a word that is shared across all Germanic languages used by the early Christians to describe the pre-Christian faith of the Germanic people. Pagan is from Latin and therefore rejected by many Heathens as a foreign word, Odinism implies monolatrism which for most Heathens is not the case (ironically including Odinists). Maybe you should look at http://odroerirjournal.com/ a journal written by Heathens expressing their own views, you will note that all the articles refer to Heathenry as the modern religion. Noddyt ( talk) 07:39, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
The journal mentioned above,
http://odroerirjournal.com/?page_id=52, has one issue and appears to be self-published and on-line only. **add** Unlike the following journals, Odroerir journal is peer reviewed, and the information contained within it appears to be consistent with academia, and not new age speculation.
More reputable journals are Vor Tru ("Vor Tru( Our Faith ) is the vanguard journal of the Old Norse and Germanic religion of Asatru and have been publishing since the 1980's, and are published by the Asatru Alliance. Check out also the OR Briefing, published since 1987, by the Odinic Rite. Check out Runestone, published by the Asatru Folk Assembly. These are venerable Asatru/Odinist publications and organizations and not personal blogs or one-shot "magazines."
The above statement regarding "more reputable journals" is misleading to downright wrong. Just because a collective has been pushing their own brand of "heathenism" for years doesn't make their journal "reputable", nor does pushing it on a discussion forum on wikipedia. Charging money for a journal doesn't make it reputable either. The information contained in Odroerir is much more fact based, and more adherent to academia than the previously mentioned journals. Odroerir's issue, at the moment is simply that it is new. It has however, received sponsorship from bigger groups including The Troth.
--
ThorLives (
talk)
08:18, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Absolutely Oppose Heathen since is is a pejorative term that is offensive. Although it is true that some subcultures, such as the Gay Community, have individuals that have adopted pejorative terms such as " Queer" as a badge of distinction, most have recognized it for what it is, a simple insult. The same applies to heathen. -- ThorLives ( talk) 21:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Whether or not individuals find the term "heathen" to be offensive shouldn't be taken into consideration for multiple reasons. The argument FOR "heathen" variants has a lot of support both in modern groups, and in acadamia. Consider these points. A) aside from Forn Sidr, or the names of individual germanic tribes, Heathen is the only term that was a naturally germanic term that was used to refer to prechristian germanic people. It appears first in Gothic but appears in Beowulf, Anglo Saxon Law, and in the Sagas, with a good example being the Death scene of Hakon the Good "To the Heathen Gods he fared", when he was buried "by heathens". B) It is still used and understood in Academic circles, particularly among medieval historians to refer to prechristian germanic people SPECIFICALLY. C) A large portion of modern heathens refer to themselves as heathen BECAUSE they are focused on reconstructing specific cultural and religious traditions that are referred to in academic texts as well as medieval sources as "heathen". The online journal Odroerir has already been mentioned, as has the Journal for Contemporary Heathen Thought. Both of these exemplify the very real existence of a very large group of people who refer to themselves as "heathen". It should ALSO be noted that these people tend to NOT approve of being called or lumped into an umbrella term of "Neopaganism". A) Paganism was never a term used to refer to the religion of the Germanic tribes by any medieval source during the period that heathenism existed. So to call them "pagan" is inaccurate. B) We must take into account modern umbrella terms and groups and how they associate...heathens have big issues with being lumped in with groups that identify as "pagan". Lastly-most heathens have an issue with being called "neo" anything. Because ALL of these terms being offered are nebulous, no one term will ever be fully agreed on, but between "pagan" and "heathen", heathen is used much more widely in germanic...."heathen" circles, and it is more consistent with acadamia and linguistics. There is no reason to use a latin term to refer to germanic traditions.
Also adding to the above argument-The Troth, both in their released books, their periodicals and at their website refer to themselves and those who practice the same religion as "heathen" and NOT pagan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.248.63.82 ( talk) 06:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Due to the above information, the most accurate and least offensive title for the page should be- "Contemporary Germanic Heathenism"