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I've chosen this page to post the NPOV notice because the terms "deaf" and "deafness" are Redirected here, making this article completely non-neutral.
Issue under debate: This is an issue about the use of a Redirect that points the search term "deaf" or "deafness" to the Hearing Impairment article. I believe the redirect should be to a disambiguation page for both terms. The Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial show a good example of the problem we are encountering under the heading "Word ownership". The words "deaf" and "deafness" have senses of their meaning that have a history of conflict dating to the 18th century. Therefore, Wikipedia should strive, at the very least, to neutralize the conflict over word ownership; an objective that can be achieved by using an appropriate disambiguation page.
Under the present redirect, no search using "deaf" or "deafness" as the search term will produce a referral to the articles that address deaf culture or deafness as a cultural identity. They will only go to Hearing impairment. It has been argued by Jfdwolff, who initiated these redirects, that deaf or deafness as a cultural identity is "fringe" language of a small minority and thus does not merit a redirect to a disambiguation page. He has also vowed not to permit "deaf" or "deafness" to become associated with culturally deaf identity, I presume, because he believes deaf culture to be too farfetched. I defer to him to correct my depiction of his argument. He is an experienced and highly valued contributor to Wikipedia, a proven scholar and a person I seek to emulate, and I regret that I must disagree with his choices on this issue, but I do. My reasons are not trivial. I argue that deaf cultural identity is not fringe or farfetched at at all and I have sought to prove my argument by using a Google search as proof. This is not the only proof I have, but I believe it may suffice to demonstrate an important point. On three consecutive days, when I used the single search term "deaf" (nothing else) in a Google search, the majority of the Google referrals were directed to web sites that present the culture sense of deafness and deaf people. You are invited to try yourself.
Google Search-Top Referrals: Results from January 17, 2005:
1. National Association of the Deaf (NAD): Founded in 1880, this is the primary and principle organization that espouses the culturally deaf model of deafness in the United States. It has state-level organizations in all 50 states and chapters in the major cities of each state.
2. The Deaf Resource Library: Most, if not all, of the content addresses the Culturally deaf model of deafness.
3. RNID: According to their mission statement: they are an advocacy organization that supports the linguistic rights of the United Kingdom's deaf community.
4. British Deaf Association: The sister organization of the USA's NAD (see #1, above). United Kingdom's leading culturally deaf organization.
5. Dogs for the Deaf. Inc.: Trains dogs to assist deaf people. Matches deaf people with a trained dog. Philosophically neutral.
6. British Deaf Association: Same as #4, but with an alternate URL.
7. American Society for Deaf Children: One of the major parent's groups that espouses the use of signed communication and encourages deaf community. Espouses the cultural model of deafness.
8. Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf: Professional interpreters have long-standing membership in and ties to the deaf community. It is virtually unimaginable that any member of this organization or profession does not advocate the culturally deaf model. They make their living in the very midst of the culturally deaf community.
9. Alexander Graham Bell Assn.: Not associated with deaf culture because of it's exclusive emphasis on speech education and the use of medical technology as adaptations to deafness.
10. DeafNation.com: The deaf community's version of popular culture. Embraces cultural deaf identity.
In my experience in writing and debating these issues, the problems arise over the concern for balance. Biased people, as Wikipedia points out, are concerned that articles do not reflect their own bias enough. But for culturally deaf people there is far worse problem: some people will not accept the premise of a cultural model of deafness. Wikipedia articles do not ask readers to accept this premise. Nor does Wikipedia seek to prevent readers from having access to articles that describe those who do espouse a cultural model of deafness. Yet access to the search terms "deaf" and "deafness" is the precise problem in this case. I ask for your comments so that we can move to a Wiki-appropriate resolution. Ray Foster 10:49, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
We follow the "principle of least astonishment" — after following a redirect, the readers's first question is likely to be: "hang on ... I wanted to read about "this". Why has the link taken me to "that"?". Presently many instances of the term "deaf" are wiki-linked on several articles. If a reader is pursuing the subject of deaf culture and history and they click on a wiki-linked "deaf" it takes them to an article that is outside the scope of study. A disambiguation page will aid in the goal of least astonishment.
This guideline refers to deleting a redirect but it is relevent to what our problem our present redirect configuration causes.
"You might want to delete a redirect if one or more of the following conditions is met: 1. The redirect page makes it unreasonably difficult for users to locate similarly named articles via the search engine." This is the present situation. Again, a redirect to a disambiguation page would solve the problem. Readers will be able to find the sense of the term "deaf" they want. Ray Foster 08:28, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Actually, that kinda twists what I was saying. Yes, I didn't know there are a "growing number of articles that address deafness from cultural, linguistic or historic perspectives" - when I click on the word "deaf" I expect to go to an article about hearing impairment. If these cultural, linguistic, or historic perspectives are part of the issues surrounding hearing impairment, then I expect them to be covered by the article I am brought to, or linked from it. Hearing impairment is the main issue here; the perspectives are sub-issues. For example, if I click on Microsoft I don't expect to be brought to a disambig page asking "do you want to know about the company, the products, or Mac vs. Windows wars?" Another example: click on Disney and you're brought not to a disambig page, but to a page which informs you about the most all-encompassing Disney topic and provides explanations for links to sub-articles. So, in short, I think it would make the most sense if "deaf" and "deafness" and "hearing impairment" all go to the same article... and, if you need to emphasize perspectives on deafness, make sure the article emphasizes them. I don't see how this "blocks access to other perspectives" in any way, and your phrasing it that way makes me wonder if maybe you're not approaching this question objectively? Just an observation from an uninvolved observer. - Brian Kendig 03:19, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I was looking for deaf as in deaf culture (and I was not smart enough to type "culture" in the search) and was kinda dissapointed by the long medical article because I don't need it. I spent time looking for links to deaf culture resources there but there is none. Although I guess some people look for the medical stuff, so a short summary article with links to in-depth culture, medical and what not articles may be a good solution? Just my 2 cents.
Another good thing about such a page would be to have all relevant links together. When I was looking for "bicycling" they have this type of page but deaf links are all over (or I just don't know how to look?). zima3000
I was going to create a disambiguation page, but instead, I moved the link to the deaf culture page up to the top of the hearing impairment page since I read on the talk page that Jfdwolff would not stand for a disambiguation page (glad I checked). I have seen countless examples of that kind of link at the top of a page when persons are likely to be searching for two or more kinds of information but would be using the same keyword to find it. Jfdwolf came behind me and put the link to deaf culture back to the bottom, as the very last thing, in the introduction. Jfdwolf, you have consistently argued passionately against the creation of a disambiguation page which seems to me to be the best path to take. I am happy that you have allowed the link to culture appear in the intro but it is not fair to further insist that the link be buried at the bottom of the intro paragraph. If you are going to be inflexible about the creation of a disambiguation page, why can you not allow that the link be near the top of the article so that people who are NOT looking for what you think is the only appropriate article to be shown when one conducts a search using the keyword word deaf can easily find the info they want. You have strong feelings about what a search using the word deaf must only be permitted to lead to. Since this is the case you need to make sure people who are looking for the information that would go on a disambiguation page can easily find what they are looking for without having to just trust that there will be a link for deaf culture buried under a long string of text that caters solely to the pathological sense of the word. Why not allow, as is done on countless other pages, plain and easy to see links to subjects that are the possible target of an inquiry at the outset of the article? Either that, or please change your mind about your total ban on a disambiguation page for the keyword deaf. Qaz
OK, this is fine now. JFW | T@lk 07:46, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
(removed the following and placed it here on the talk page because it was written as a personal comment and so belongs here) Being deaf is being part of a culture. It’s similar to being a member of a Korean or Hispanic community that has not been fully incorporated into American life. These communities generally retain their native language for use at home or when doing things together, and the deaf community has every right to retain the use of ASL rather than assimilate into the hearing world. Choclear Implants are difficult to accept, in my opinion, because they take an entire culture’s makeup into question. -tt260801@ohio.edu
I removed the "other meanings of deaf" notice since it was no longer needed since deaf is no longer a redirect to hearing impairment. If others feel that it is essential for some reason, put it back. Qaz 00:23, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Interesting discussion and good to see cool tempers on both sides of a potentially explosive issue. I hope my post is read with an open mind!
I'll begin with an anecdote: I recently introduced a hearing friend to two other friends - one who describes herself as hearing impaired and the other who calls himself deaf. Both immediately understood each other's meaning, but the hearing friend was somewhat confused. Suppose he looks up 'hearing impairment' on wikipedia to gain a better understanding of the term....?
In my experience in the deaf community in Australia and other English-speaking countries, the term hearing impaired is often contrasted to the term deaf to indicate the particular individual's attitude to their deafness.
Hearing impaired can indicate that the person sees themselves as disabled and may communicate with speech, lipreading and with use of hearing aids in preference to sign language. They may be late late-deafened or orally educated.
Deaf can indicate that the individual sees themself as part of the deaf community (often emphatically not disabled but rather a member of a cultural minority), and uses sign-language as their preferred language.
In this sense it is really a descriptor of one's cultural allegiance.
I propose that this meaning of "hearing impaired" is at least acknowledged in this article; perhaps in it's own section with a heading, eg:
TERMINOLOGY
The term Hearing impaired is often contrasted to the term Deaf to indicate two different models of understanding hearing loss. Hearing impaired is a medical understanding of deafness as a disability, whereas people who identify as deaf (especially with a capital D) may not see themselves as having a disabililty, but rather as members of a 'cultural minority' associated with sign language (see Deaf culture).--ntennis 08:34, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
These comments have been copied from the [Talk:Deaf] page as they are relevant to both. Sorry it's long but I don't want to make changes without agreement by the interested parties.
Currently, if you type 'deafness' in the Wikipedia search box, you are re-directed to the 'Hearing impairment' page. If you type 'deaf' you are taken another page with statistics about deafness, a reference to the deaf community, and other meanings of 'deaf'. The two pages have very different information. It seems to me 'deaf' and 'deafness' should redirect to the same page!
On some level it looks like what's going on with these two pages is territorialism, with two different models of deafness competing over terminology - a medical perspective and a social or cultural one (see discussion above and on Talk:Deaf). However, if you look at the best pages on wikipedia, the different meanings or categories of the term used as the page name are outlined at the start of the page; there's a general overview, and the different areas of interest branch off from there.
If you look at the 'Hearing impairment' page (also 'Deafness'), the opening paragraph is almost exclusively about treatment and rehabilitation - in fact everything after the first sentence.
I would rather see something like what is on the 'deaf' page (with some improvements) move to become the first paragraph of the 'Hearing impairment' page, and the information here about treatment moved under a heading like 'Treatment/rehabilitation'. I think that page should be named 'Deafness' or 'Deafness/Hearing impairment'. The opening paragraph should be an overview of what deafness IS, not just how to treat it. Please see this site for one approach to the kind of thing I have in mind.
Here's a quote from the page I just gave the link to:
DEAFNESS - While deafness is a hearing impairment, someone who is deaf is not usually described as having a hearing impairment. A person who has a total hearing loss is described as being deaf. The key difference in the common use of the terminology is that someone who has a hearing impairment, has a mild or moderate hearing loss, and a person who is deaf has either no hearing or has a severe hearing loss.
As someone immersed in Deaf culture, I'm strongly in favor of a reference to the deaf community and sign language in the opening paragraph of the 'deafness' page. However I think we need to remember that the number of signing deaf are a tiny proportion of the total number of people with hearing impairments (eg. in australia, there was an estimated 750,000 people with a hearing loss (5% of total population) in 1986 - current research puts the number of sign language users at about 6,500 [1]. The proportion may be greater in other countries but you can do the maths. Also ref. this site. Other estimates put the Deaf Community at 0.1% of a general population.
Yet despite small numbers, the Deaf community offers important insights into a number of fields of knowlege that should ensure its mention in the page 'Deafness', somewhere prominent. Eg. Nicaraguan Sign Language is at the core of the investigation into the nature of language. The Deaf community's challenge to widely believed notions of 'normal' and 'disabled' are forcing many other fields of knowledge (eg. sociology, anthropology) to question their frameworks. Also, the 'public face' of deafness in some ways includes sign language (eg. films about deafness like Children of a Lesser God); it's prominent in the general public's mind. All this should be a part of a page about deafness.
Hope you're still with me :)
Alternatively (though I prefer the first option), we could expand the 'Deaf' page a lot, explain the way the term 'Hearing Impaired' is used differently from the word 'Deaf', and put a link to the 'Hearing impaired' page in the opening paragraph. The 'Hearing impaired' page would then have to do something similar referencing the 'Deaf' page. The 'Deaf page would be renamed as 'Deafness'.
So I would really like to see a response from others who have contributed to this page and the ongoing debate. Anyone who wants to have a private discussion or chat online is welcome to contact me on my talk page. As the discussion is inseperable from the hearing impairment page, I guess i'll copy these comments there as well. -- ntennis ntennis 02:35, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Whatever your POV problems are with "deaf", etc. the paras for (1) "hard-of-hearing", (2) "post-lingual hearing impairment", (3) "progressive hearing loss", and (4) "unilateral hearing loss", should not have been separated into four differnent articles. They surely are integral to the same problem. I have redirected "hard-of-hearing" as it belongs to the article of "hearing impairment". As it stood the article and its lost bits is now in a bit of a mess. (1) is back, but (2), (3), and (4) need doing. I have left the "see also" links for (2), (3), and 4) in, so they can be referred to easily. Dieter Simon 00:32, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I have read in anumber of places (inc RNID fact sheet) that long term exposure at 85dBSPL does minimum damage to hearing. THis page says 70dB. Or is it 85 dB for 8 hours a day? Could someone comment on this please? 8-)-- Light current 15:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Many health warnings advise that higher frequencies are more damaging to hearing. This implies that lower frequencies are less damaging. So what is the difference between high and low frequencies limits in dB? Also anyone know how low frequencies are defined in this context?? 8-|-- Light current 15:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Is this the right word here? Or should it be 'deficiencies' (or 'defects') 8-?-- Light current 16:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, I myself am hearing impaired, and I am sorta dismayed to see a lack of proper citations on this article. In a few days I plan to remedy this. I will list sources here, if anyone has problems and or questions let me know. This article really should have a chance at becoming a WP:FA. I will grab the appropriate citation data when I do the proper {{ cite}} (Cite.php) format. —— Eagle ( ask me for help) 08:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I stopped looking for sources until I know what the scope of this article is. Is this for humans, or for all creatures. —— Eagle ( ask me for help) 21:57, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Alright, I am just going to expand the intro, and effect a total rewrite on this article. If anyone has problems with my changes, please undo just those changes and not everything, thanks.—— Eagle ( ask me for help) 23:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
This recently added couple of sentences has a lot of problems:
There's really nothing here that's meaningful or useful. For one thing, pitch is not frequency; for another, this is very backward way to define frequency; and the definition of amplitude as it stands is both too narrow and vacuous. But mainly, the idea that sound waves can be described by amplitude and frequency is itself very limiting and not at all general; it's really only applicable to the way hearing is tested with sine waves. The old lead that didn't try to get into this slippery area was better, but then the next section had similar problems. The final sentence seems to have the causality backwards; hearing impairment leads to increased detection thresholds for sinusoids; hearing impairment is NOT a RESULT of loss of ability to detect certain frequencies (that's a symptom, not a cause). I think we should just remove it from the lead, and work on getting things right as they come up. Dicklyon 02:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
A "Prevention" section of sorts would be great. Jack Daw 19:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The link I tried to add was removed because it was was considered spam. If you go to the "US and News and World Report" site and do a search on hearing aids, you will find a comprehensive article regarding hearing aids, "Good Vibrations: They're still hearing aids. But they're better--and smaller". In this article the site I tried to add is referenced along with all the other sites that are already in the external link to this article. The following is a quote from the article:
"If Ralph Nader had run a website in the '60s for people with hearing problems, it might have been like Hard of Hearing Advocates. Nothing and no one are beyond criticism on this volunteer-run site. The message board is especially feisty."
I am confused as to how this was perceived as spam as this site does not sell anything and I don't believe there are any advertisements on it either. This is the premier hard of hearing online forum. hoha2 00:18 AM, April 20 2007 (UTC)
The following pasted from elsewhere:
Adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam. Although the specific links may be allowed under some circumstances, repeatedly adding links will in most cases result in all of them being removed.
"Personal electronic audio devices, such as iPods (iPods often reaching 115 decibels or higher), can produce powerful enough sound to cause significant Noise-Induced Hearing Loss, given that lesser intensities of even 70 dB can also cause hearing loss."
Needs a citation. My brother just visited the doctor, who prescribed hearing aids to fix some of my brother's loss. My brother asked, "Did listening to loud music in the 70s and 80s cause my loss?" and the doctor said not. ---- So basically what I see hear is a contradiction: Wiki says loud music can cause loss, while a professional says not. Can someone provide a citation to back-up the quoted sentence? Thanks. - Theaveng ( talk) 12:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
I've chosen this page to post the NPOV notice because the terms "deaf" and "deafness" are Redirected here, making this article completely non-neutral.
Issue under debate: This is an issue about the use of a Redirect that points the search term "deaf" or "deafness" to the Hearing Impairment article. I believe the redirect should be to a disambiguation page for both terms. The Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial show a good example of the problem we are encountering under the heading "Word ownership". The words "deaf" and "deafness" have senses of their meaning that have a history of conflict dating to the 18th century. Therefore, Wikipedia should strive, at the very least, to neutralize the conflict over word ownership; an objective that can be achieved by using an appropriate disambiguation page.
Under the present redirect, no search using "deaf" or "deafness" as the search term will produce a referral to the articles that address deaf culture or deafness as a cultural identity. They will only go to Hearing impairment. It has been argued by Jfdwolff, who initiated these redirects, that deaf or deafness as a cultural identity is "fringe" language of a small minority and thus does not merit a redirect to a disambiguation page. He has also vowed not to permit "deaf" or "deafness" to become associated with culturally deaf identity, I presume, because he believes deaf culture to be too farfetched. I defer to him to correct my depiction of his argument. He is an experienced and highly valued contributor to Wikipedia, a proven scholar and a person I seek to emulate, and I regret that I must disagree with his choices on this issue, but I do. My reasons are not trivial. I argue that deaf cultural identity is not fringe or farfetched at at all and I have sought to prove my argument by using a Google search as proof. This is not the only proof I have, but I believe it may suffice to demonstrate an important point. On three consecutive days, when I used the single search term "deaf" (nothing else) in a Google search, the majority of the Google referrals were directed to web sites that present the culture sense of deafness and deaf people. You are invited to try yourself.
Google Search-Top Referrals: Results from January 17, 2005:
1. National Association of the Deaf (NAD): Founded in 1880, this is the primary and principle organization that espouses the culturally deaf model of deafness in the United States. It has state-level organizations in all 50 states and chapters in the major cities of each state.
2. The Deaf Resource Library: Most, if not all, of the content addresses the Culturally deaf model of deafness.
3. RNID: According to their mission statement: they are an advocacy organization that supports the linguistic rights of the United Kingdom's deaf community.
4. British Deaf Association: The sister organization of the USA's NAD (see #1, above). United Kingdom's leading culturally deaf organization.
5. Dogs for the Deaf. Inc.: Trains dogs to assist deaf people. Matches deaf people with a trained dog. Philosophically neutral.
6. British Deaf Association: Same as #4, but with an alternate URL.
7. American Society for Deaf Children: One of the major parent's groups that espouses the use of signed communication and encourages deaf community. Espouses the cultural model of deafness.
8. Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf: Professional interpreters have long-standing membership in and ties to the deaf community. It is virtually unimaginable that any member of this organization or profession does not advocate the culturally deaf model. They make their living in the very midst of the culturally deaf community.
9. Alexander Graham Bell Assn.: Not associated with deaf culture because of it's exclusive emphasis on speech education and the use of medical technology as adaptations to deafness.
10. DeafNation.com: The deaf community's version of popular culture. Embraces cultural deaf identity.
In my experience in writing and debating these issues, the problems arise over the concern for balance. Biased people, as Wikipedia points out, are concerned that articles do not reflect their own bias enough. But for culturally deaf people there is far worse problem: some people will not accept the premise of a cultural model of deafness. Wikipedia articles do not ask readers to accept this premise. Nor does Wikipedia seek to prevent readers from having access to articles that describe those who do espouse a cultural model of deafness. Yet access to the search terms "deaf" and "deafness" is the precise problem in this case. I ask for your comments so that we can move to a Wiki-appropriate resolution. Ray Foster 10:49, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
We follow the "principle of least astonishment" — after following a redirect, the readers's first question is likely to be: "hang on ... I wanted to read about "this". Why has the link taken me to "that"?". Presently many instances of the term "deaf" are wiki-linked on several articles. If a reader is pursuing the subject of deaf culture and history and they click on a wiki-linked "deaf" it takes them to an article that is outside the scope of study. A disambiguation page will aid in the goal of least astonishment.
This guideline refers to deleting a redirect but it is relevent to what our problem our present redirect configuration causes.
"You might want to delete a redirect if one or more of the following conditions is met: 1. The redirect page makes it unreasonably difficult for users to locate similarly named articles via the search engine." This is the present situation. Again, a redirect to a disambiguation page would solve the problem. Readers will be able to find the sense of the term "deaf" they want. Ray Foster 08:28, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Actually, that kinda twists what I was saying. Yes, I didn't know there are a "growing number of articles that address deafness from cultural, linguistic or historic perspectives" - when I click on the word "deaf" I expect to go to an article about hearing impairment. If these cultural, linguistic, or historic perspectives are part of the issues surrounding hearing impairment, then I expect them to be covered by the article I am brought to, or linked from it. Hearing impairment is the main issue here; the perspectives are sub-issues. For example, if I click on Microsoft I don't expect to be brought to a disambig page asking "do you want to know about the company, the products, or Mac vs. Windows wars?" Another example: click on Disney and you're brought not to a disambig page, but to a page which informs you about the most all-encompassing Disney topic and provides explanations for links to sub-articles. So, in short, I think it would make the most sense if "deaf" and "deafness" and "hearing impairment" all go to the same article... and, if you need to emphasize perspectives on deafness, make sure the article emphasizes them. I don't see how this "blocks access to other perspectives" in any way, and your phrasing it that way makes me wonder if maybe you're not approaching this question objectively? Just an observation from an uninvolved observer. - Brian Kendig 03:19, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I was looking for deaf as in deaf culture (and I was not smart enough to type "culture" in the search) and was kinda dissapointed by the long medical article because I don't need it. I spent time looking for links to deaf culture resources there but there is none. Although I guess some people look for the medical stuff, so a short summary article with links to in-depth culture, medical and what not articles may be a good solution? Just my 2 cents.
Another good thing about such a page would be to have all relevant links together. When I was looking for "bicycling" they have this type of page but deaf links are all over (or I just don't know how to look?). zima3000
I was going to create a disambiguation page, but instead, I moved the link to the deaf culture page up to the top of the hearing impairment page since I read on the talk page that Jfdwolff would not stand for a disambiguation page (glad I checked). I have seen countless examples of that kind of link at the top of a page when persons are likely to be searching for two or more kinds of information but would be using the same keyword to find it. Jfdwolf came behind me and put the link to deaf culture back to the bottom, as the very last thing, in the introduction. Jfdwolf, you have consistently argued passionately against the creation of a disambiguation page which seems to me to be the best path to take. I am happy that you have allowed the link to culture appear in the intro but it is not fair to further insist that the link be buried at the bottom of the intro paragraph. If you are going to be inflexible about the creation of a disambiguation page, why can you not allow that the link be near the top of the article so that people who are NOT looking for what you think is the only appropriate article to be shown when one conducts a search using the keyword word deaf can easily find the info they want. You have strong feelings about what a search using the word deaf must only be permitted to lead to. Since this is the case you need to make sure people who are looking for the information that would go on a disambiguation page can easily find what they are looking for without having to just trust that there will be a link for deaf culture buried under a long string of text that caters solely to the pathological sense of the word. Why not allow, as is done on countless other pages, plain and easy to see links to subjects that are the possible target of an inquiry at the outset of the article? Either that, or please change your mind about your total ban on a disambiguation page for the keyword deaf. Qaz
OK, this is fine now. JFW | T@lk 07:46, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
(removed the following and placed it here on the talk page because it was written as a personal comment and so belongs here) Being deaf is being part of a culture. It’s similar to being a member of a Korean or Hispanic community that has not been fully incorporated into American life. These communities generally retain their native language for use at home or when doing things together, and the deaf community has every right to retain the use of ASL rather than assimilate into the hearing world. Choclear Implants are difficult to accept, in my opinion, because they take an entire culture’s makeup into question. -tt260801@ohio.edu
I removed the "other meanings of deaf" notice since it was no longer needed since deaf is no longer a redirect to hearing impairment. If others feel that it is essential for some reason, put it back. Qaz 00:23, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Interesting discussion and good to see cool tempers on both sides of a potentially explosive issue. I hope my post is read with an open mind!
I'll begin with an anecdote: I recently introduced a hearing friend to two other friends - one who describes herself as hearing impaired and the other who calls himself deaf. Both immediately understood each other's meaning, but the hearing friend was somewhat confused. Suppose he looks up 'hearing impairment' on wikipedia to gain a better understanding of the term....?
In my experience in the deaf community in Australia and other English-speaking countries, the term hearing impaired is often contrasted to the term deaf to indicate the particular individual's attitude to their deafness.
Hearing impaired can indicate that the person sees themselves as disabled and may communicate with speech, lipreading and with use of hearing aids in preference to sign language. They may be late late-deafened or orally educated.
Deaf can indicate that the individual sees themself as part of the deaf community (often emphatically not disabled but rather a member of a cultural minority), and uses sign-language as their preferred language.
In this sense it is really a descriptor of one's cultural allegiance.
I propose that this meaning of "hearing impaired" is at least acknowledged in this article; perhaps in it's own section with a heading, eg:
TERMINOLOGY
The term Hearing impaired is often contrasted to the term Deaf to indicate two different models of understanding hearing loss. Hearing impaired is a medical understanding of deafness as a disability, whereas people who identify as deaf (especially with a capital D) may not see themselves as having a disabililty, but rather as members of a 'cultural minority' associated with sign language (see Deaf culture).--ntennis 08:34, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
These comments have been copied from the [Talk:Deaf] page as they are relevant to both. Sorry it's long but I don't want to make changes without agreement by the interested parties.
Currently, if you type 'deafness' in the Wikipedia search box, you are re-directed to the 'Hearing impairment' page. If you type 'deaf' you are taken another page with statistics about deafness, a reference to the deaf community, and other meanings of 'deaf'. The two pages have very different information. It seems to me 'deaf' and 'deafness' should redirect to the same page!
On some level it looks like what's going on with these two pages is territorialism, with two different models of deafness competing over terminology - a medical perspective and a social or cultural one (see discussion above and on Talk:Deaf). However, if you look at the best pages on wikipedia, the different meanings or categories of the term used as the page name are outlined at the start of the page; there's a general overview, and the different areas of interest branch off from there.
If you look at the 'Hearing impairment' page (also 'Deafness'), the opening paragraph is almost exclusively about treatment and rehabilitation - in fact everything after the first sentence.
I would rather see something like what is on the 'deaf' page (with some improvements) move to become the first paragraph of the 'Hearing impairment' page, and the information here about treatment moved under a heading like 'Treatment/rehabilitation'. I think that page should be named 'Deafness' or 'Deafness/Hearing impairment'. The opening paragraph should be an overview of what deafness IS, not just how to treat it. Please see this site for one approach to the kind of thing I have in mind.
Here's a quote from the page I just gave the link to:
DEAFNESS - While deafness is a hearing impairment, someone who is deaf is not usually described as having a hearing impairment. A person who has a total hearing loss is described as being deaf. The key difference in the common use of the terminology is that someone who has a hearing impairment, has a mild or moderate hearing loss, and a person who is deaf has either no hearing or has a severe hearing loss.
As someone immersed in Deaf culture, I'm strongly in favor of a reference to the deaf community and sign language in the opening paragraph of the 'deafness' page. However I think we need to remember that the number of signing deaf are a tiny proportion of the total number of people with hearing impairments (eg. in australia, there was an estimated 750,000 people with a hearing loss (5% of total population) in 1986 - current research puts the number of sign language users at about 6,500 [1]. The proportion may be greater in other countries but you can do the maths. Also ref. this site. Other estimates put the Deaf Community at 0.1% of a general population.
Yet despite small numbers, the Deaf community offers important insights into a number of fields of knowlege that should ensure its mention in the page 'Deafness', somewhere prominent. Eg. Nicaraguan Sign Language is at the core of the investigation into the nature of language. The Deaf community's challenge to widely believed notions of 'normal' and 'disabled' are forcing many other fields of knowledge (eg. sociology, anthropology) to question their frameworks. Also, the 'public face' of deafness in some ways includes sign language (eg. films about deafness like Children of a Lesser God); it's prominent in the general public's mind. All this should be a part of a page about deafness.
Hope you're still with me :)
Alternatively (though I prefer the first option), we could expand the 'Deaf' page a lot, explain the way the term 'Hearing Impaired' is used differently from the word 'Deaf', and put a link to the 'Hearing impaired' page in the opening paragraph. The 'Hearing impaired' page would then have to do something similar referencing the 'Deaf' page. The 'Deaf page would be renamed as 'Deafness'.
So I would really like to see a response from others who have contributed to this page and the ongoing debate. Anyone who wants to have a private discussion or chat online is welcome to contact me on my talk page. As the discussion is inseperable from the hearing impairment page, I guess i'll copy these comments there as well. -- ntennis ntennis 02:35, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Whatever your POV problems are with "deaf", etc. the paras for (1) "hard-of-hearing", (2) "post-lingual hearing impairment", (3) "progressive hearing loss", and (4) "unilateral hearing loss", should not have been separated into four differnent articles. They surely are integral to the same problem. I have redirected "hard-of-hearing" as it belongs to the article of "hearing impairment". As it stood the article and its lost bits is now in a bit of a mess. (1) is back, but (2), (3), and (4) need doing. I have left the "see also" links for (2), (3), and 4) in, so they can be referred to easily. Dieter Simon 00:32, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I have read in anumber of places (inc RNID fact sheet) that long term exposure at 85dBSPL does minimum damage to hearing. THis page says 70dB. Or is it 85 dB for 8 hours a day? Could someone comment on this please? 8-)-- Light current 15:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Many health warnings advise that higher frequencies are more damaging to hearing. This implies that lower frequencies are less damaging. So what is the difference between high and low frequencies limits in dB? Also anyone know how low frequencies are defined in this context?? 8-|-- Light current 15:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Is this the right word here? Or should it be 'deficiencies' (or 'defects') 8-?-- Light current 16:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, I myself am hearing impaired, and I am sorta dismayed to see a lack of proper citations on this article. In a few days I plan to remedy this. I will list sources here, if anyone has problems and or questions let me know. This article really should have a chance at becoming a WP:FA. I will grab the appropriate citation data when I do the proper {{ cite}} (Cite.php) format. —— Eagle ( ask me for help) 08:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I stopped looking for sources until I know what the scope of this article is. Is this for humans, or for all creatures. —— Eagle ( ask me for help) 21:57, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Alright, I am just going to expand the intro, and effect a total rewrite on this article. If anyone has problems with my changes, please undo just those changes and not everything, thanks.—— Eagle ( ask me for help) 23:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
This recently added couple of sentences has a lot of problems:
There's really nothing here that's meaningful or useful. For one thing, pitch is not frequency; for another, this is very backward way to define frequency; and the definition of amplitude as it stands is both too narrow and vacuous. But mainly, the idea that sound waves can be described by amplitude and frequency is itself very limiting and not at all general; it's really only applicable to the way hearing is tested with sine waves. The old lead that didn't try to get into this slippery area was better, but then the next section had similar problems. The final sentence seems to have the causality backwards; hearing impairment leads to increased detection thresholds for sinusoids; hearing impairment is NOT a RESULT of loss of ability to detect certain frequencies (that's a symptom, not a cause). I think we should just remove it from the lead, and work on getting things right as they come up. Dicklyon 02:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
A "Prevention" section of sorts would be great. Jack Daw 19:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The link I tried to add was removed because it was was considered spam. If you go to the "US and News and World Report" site and do a search on hearing aids, you will find a comprehensive article regarding hearing aids, "Good Vibrations: They're still hearing aids. But they're better--and smaller". In this article the site I tried to add is referenced along with all the other sites that are already in the external link to this article. The following is a quote from the article:
"If Ralph Nader had run a website in the '60s for people with hearing problems, it might have been like Hard of Hearing Advocates. Nothing and no one are beyond criticism on this volunteer-run site. The message board is especially feisty."
I am confused as to how this was perceived as spam as this site does not sell anything and I don't believe there are any advertisements on it either. This is the premier hard of hearing online forum. hoha2 00:18 AM, April 20 2007 (UTC)
The following pasted from elsewhere:
Adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam. Although the specific links may be allowed under some circumstances, repeatedly adding links will in most cases result in all of them being removed.
"Personal electronic audio devices, such as iPods (iPods often reaching 115 decibels or higher), can produce powerful enough sound to cause significant Noise-Induced Hearing Loss, given that lesser intensities of even 70 dB can also cause hearing loss."
Needs a citation. My brother just visited the doctor, who prescribed hearing aids to fix some of my brother's loss. My brother asked, "Did listening to loud music in the 70s and 80s cause my loss?" and the doctor said not. ---- So basically what I see hear is a contradiction: Wiki says loud music can cause loss, while a professional says not. Can someone provide a citation to back-up the quoted sentence? Thanks. - Theaveng ( talk) 12:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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