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Article says:
And then it says:
If the hazzan has no formal role in halakha, how is it that halakha sets requirements to be one? -- SJK
The Jewish Theological Seminary of America (conservative), The Belz School of Jewish Music (orthodox), Hebrew Union College (Reform) The American Seminary for Contemporary Judaism (multi-denominational) all train and grant Cantorial Diplomas thereby ordaining Cantors. The official title conveyed by most schools is Reverend Cantor. JTS grants the title "Hazzan," and "Cantorial Soloist." A Cantor is supposed to be more than just another singer. He studies for many years regarding the laws and customs of being a leader in the Jewish community, leading the service which includes prayer chants, biblical Torah reading, and Megillah chants, musical modes of the service, the meanings of the words, and at least in Orthodox circles, he is observant in keeping with the traditions of Jewish law. He is a teacher of "Nusach" (chant), and Jewish law as well. The cantor becomes the "High Priest" on Yom Kippur, acting as the intermediary between God and the congregation (this is his purpose).
This last paragraph is all correct, and parts should be included in the article.
OK, I know I was not crazy. Here it is written in the book "The Cantor An Historic Perspective" put out by Yeshiva University, 1972 Author- Leo Landman. Page 78 on the bottom is talking about Hazzanim officiating at marriages; in 1830, synagogues "having to recognize someone as a minister. Again, the Hazzan closely fitted the position. It was advantageous for synagogues to limit marriages to the Hazzan...Hazzanim thus earned the title 'Reverend'. The entire matter changed the cantorate...elevation of the status of the Hazzan to the pastoral one of minister..." And it goes on and on guys. Reinstate the proper titles in the appropriate places please. -Merlinzor
I wish to suggest an clarification: The Shataz does say the words, above, which imply that he is an intermediary between man and God. But that is not the way that the Shatz (even a professional Hazzan) is understood in Jewish theology. As I understand it, it is a poetic statement, but not understood literally. RK 14:37, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
The Hertz Chumash (five books of Moses) has a publishers note in the front page mentioning that The Soncino Books of the Bible from where the commentary comes, was edited by the late Rev. Dr. Abraham Cohen. Rev. is used in Judaism still today. -Merlin
I don't understand why anyone today would use the term "Reverend Cantor" for any Jewish cantor/hazzan. From my upbringing I know that a few Modern Orthodox congregations in the USA used this term briefly; my own Orthodox synagogue was led by the Reverend Battalion (a cantor) as well as by our (RCA) Rabbi, but this useage was not widespread in any of the Jewish denominations. This terminology seems to stem from its use in England. AFAIK, today this term is not used. We could mention its useage as a historical note in the articles on hazzans, but we should not use this when referring to an individual in any article. Its use today is a geographical and historical anachronism, and it can only cause confusion among readers. RK 14:44, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
Some schools DO "ordain" their Cantors, as in the case of JTS. The RRC and (possibly) HUC trained Cantors do not receive an ordination, they receive "Cantorial Investiture" I suppose the argument can be made that investiture and ordination are analogous, but there are some sweeping generalizations being made that make very little sense. 74.74.86.127 ( talk) 19:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Article on Rabbi, Encyclopedia Judaica, copyrighted, Keter Publishing.
Merlin, with all due respect, the lecture you just delivered demonstrates that you simply don't understand what caused this whole firestorm to begin with. "Reverend Cantor" is not a widely used title for chazanim, in fact, it's very rarely used, and, from your "evidence", never by Jews. That was and is the only issue anyone had with this article. Any other "teaching" you feel needs to be done should be done on your userspace, not in the article's talkpage. Tomer TALK 19:28, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
What about the issue of non-Jewish cantors? Years ago my synagogue used to employ a very talented Gentile cantor. Would mention of non-Jewish cantors best fit under "Qualifications", "Complaints against hazzanim", or "Cantors as a profession"? I realize this is a complicated Reform/Conservative/Orthdox issue. Thoughts? Submissions?-- Kibbitzer 04:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
A very strong non-NPOV sentiment pervades this entire section. Suggestions for revision? Flourdustedhazzn 08:40, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Now common in Reform congregations.
Chazzan seems to be the most popular spelling on Google. At first it seemed like Chazan would win, but many of those results are last names of people. I propose a move to Chazzan. --
DLand
TALK
18:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
1. The misspelling חָזָּן should be corrected. Just open any dictionary. 2. Like other professions, it serves as a surname too. In Hebrew there is only one correct spelling חַזָּן. In Latin letters it really depends on the pronounciation in different languages. For English one may come across Chazen, Chazan. For French, Hazan. In Northern Europe, Hasan.
I really think it should be Hazan or Chazan, without the double Z. If you look at the Hebrew, or even the pronunciation guide (being [χaˈzan]), it's clear that the first sound does not end with a 'z'; I understand that this means that we would not use a double consonant. 77.96.107.204 ( talk) 15:01, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
under Professional status it says that The role of hazzanim as a respected full-time profession has become a reality in recent centuries. In the last two centuries etc. I think that it would be better if the specific centuries are named. Though I'm not sure if this warrents a change. If anyone agrees with me then please change it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.67.218.233 ( talk) 13:18, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
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Article says:
And then it says:
If the hazzan has no formal role in halakha, how is it that halakha sets requirements to be one? -- SJK
The Jewish Theological Seminary of America (conservative), The Belz School of Jewish Music (orthodox), Hebrew Union College (Reform) The American Seminary for Contemporary Judaism (multi-denominational) all train and grant Cantorial Diplomas thereby ordaining Cantors. The official title conveyed by most schools is Reverend Cantor. JTS grants the title "Hazzan," and "Cantorial Soloist." A Cantor is supposed to be more than just another singer. He studies for many years regarding the laws and customs of being a leader in the Jewish community, leading the service which includes prayer chants, biblical Torah reading, and Megillah chants, musical modes of the service, the meanings of the words, and at least in Orthodox circles, he is observant in keeping with the traditions of Jewish law. He is a teacher of "Nusach" (chant), and Jewish law as well. The cantor becomes the "High Priest" on Yom Kippur, acting as the intermediary between God and the congregation (this is his purpose).
This last paragraph is all correct, and parts should be included in the article.
OK, I know I was not crazy. Here it is written in the book "The Cantor An Historic Perspective" put out by Yeshiva University, 1972 Author- Leo Landman. Page 78 on the bottom is talking about Hazzanim officiating at marriages; in 1830, synagogues "having to recognize someone as a minister. Again, the Hazzan closely fitted the position. It was advantageous for synagogues to limit marriages to the Hazzan...Hazzanim thus earned the title 'Reverend'. The entire matter changed the cantorate...elevation of the status of the Hazzan to the pastoral one of minister..." And it goes on and on guys. Reinstate the proper titles in the appropriate places please. -Merlinzor
I wish to suggest an clarification: The Shataz does say the words, above, which imply that he is an intermediary between man and God. But that is not the way that the Shatz (even a professional Hazzan) is understood in Jewish theology. As I understand it, it is a poetic statement, but not understood literally. RK 14:37, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
The Hertz Chumash (five books of Moses) has a publishers note in the front page mentioning that The Soncino Books of the Bible from where the commentary comes, was edited by the late Rev. Dr. Abraham Cohen. Rev. is used in Judaism still today. -Merlin
I don't understand why anyone today would use the term "Reverend Cantor" for any Jewish cantor/hazzan. From my upbringing I know that a few Modern Orthodox congregations in the USA used this term briefly; my own Orthodox synagogue was led by the Reverend Battalion (a cantor) as well as by our (RCA) Rabbi, but this useage was not widespread in any of the Jewish denominations. This terminology seems to stem from its use in England. AFAIK, today this term is not used. We could mention its useage as a historical note in the articles on hazzans, but we should not use this when referring to an individual in any article. Its use today is a geographical and historical anachronism, and it can only cause confusion among readers. RK 14:44, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
Some schools DO "ordain" their Cantors, as in the case of JTS. The RRC and (possibly) HUC trained Cantors do not receive an ordination, they receive "Cantorial Investiture" I suppose the argument can be made that investiture and ordination are analogous, but there are some sweeping generalizations being made that make very little sense. 74.74.86.127 ( talk) 19:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Article on Rabbi, Encyclopedia Judaica, copyrighted, Keter Publishing.
Merlin, with all due respect, the lecture you just delivered demonstrates that you simply don't understand what caused this whole firestorm to begin with. "Reverend Cantor" is not a widely used title for chazanim, in fact, it's very rarely used, and, from your "evidence", never by Jews. That was and is the only issue anyone had with this article. Any other "teaching" you feel needs to be done should be done on your userspace, not in the article's talkpage. Tomer TALK 19:28, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
What about the issue of non-Jewish cantors? Years ago my synagogue used to employ a very talented Gentile cantor. Would mention of non-Jewish cantors best fit under "Qualifications", "Complaints against hazzanim", or "Cantors as a profession"? I realize this is a complicated Reform/Conservative/Orthdox issue. Thoughts? Submissions?-- Kibbitzer 04:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
A very strong non-NPOV sentiment pervades this entire section. Suggestions for revision? Flourdustedhazzn 08:40, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Now common in Reform congregations.
Chazzan seems to be the most popular spelling on Google. At first it seemed like Chazan would win, but many of those results are last names of people. I propose a move to Chazzan. --
DLand
TALK
18:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
1. The misspelling חָזָּן should be corrected. Just open any dictionary. 2. Like other professions, it serves as a surname too. In Hebrew there is only one correct spelling חַזָּן. In Latin letters it really depends on the pronounciation in different languages. For English one may come across Chazen, Chazan. For French, Hazan. In Northern Europe, Hasan.
I really think it should be Hazan or Chazan, without the double Z. If you look at the Hebrew, or even the pronunciation guide (being [χaˈzan]), it's clear that the first sound does not end with a 'z'; I understand that this means that we would not use a double consonant. 77.96.107.204 ( talk) 15:01, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
under Professional status it says that The role of hazzanim as a respected full-time profession has become a reality in recent centuries. In the last two centuries etc. I think that it would be better if the specific centuries are named. Though I'm not sure if this warrents a change. If anyone agrees with me then please change it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.67.218.233 ( talk) 13:18, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:43, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
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