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"This article or section needs sources or references that appear in reliable, third-party publications." What's that? a third-party publication?
Hi Jossi. Austerlitz -- 88.75.208.203 ( talk) 09:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
"through the Middle Eastern, in places such as Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Mecca" is not an improvement of a grammatical irregularity. Cott12 ( talk) 22:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
This article or section needs sources or references that appear in reliable, third-party publications. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.75.72.6 ( talk) 17:30, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
If the birth and death dates currently in the article are correct, then she would have been 125 when she died. Making her three years older than the oldest women ever recorded. I find this hard to believe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.226.245.147 ( talk) 05:33, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for this. It was very nicely written. It ought to be published somewhere. No objections from me as to the section. Sounds like you made your case. Dazedbythebell ( talk) 00:53, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
To give a general idea of some initial amendments that are probably necessary in order to include the differing published views, I provide an example below. I also feel the rest of the article could be improved, yet still retaining most of the current text. Again, are there any objections, or does anyone have a better suggestion?
Hazrat Babajan (c. 1806 – September 21 1931) was a
Pathan (Pashtun)
Muslim
Sufi
saint considered by her followers to be a
sadguru or
qutub. Born in either
Afghanistan or
Baluchistan (what is now
Pakistan), she lived the final 25 years of her life in
Pune,
India.
Early life & realization
The earliest recorded account of Babajan, who was named at birth Gulrukh “Face like a Rose”, states that she “is the daughter of one of the ministers of the Amir of Afghanistan.” [1] Later accounts report that Babajan “hails from Afghanistan … and was the daughter of a well-to-do Afghan of noble lineage”; [2] “Her father was one of the chieftains of the Afghan empire”; [3] and more recently, “born to a royal Muslim family of Baluchistan”. [4] The precise date of Babajan’s birth is unclear. Biography variants range from 1790 [5] to c. 1820. [6]
References
Stephen Castro 16:47, 20 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Stephen Castro (
talk •
contribs)
As I have some time off work today, please see below a proposed draft suggestion to replace the 2nd para for the “Early life & realization” section. I will go through the remaining sections in due course, and when time permits. I will seek consensus before making any changes.
Following the conventions of Afghan aristocracy, Babajan was reared under the strict
purdah tradition, in which women were secluded from the outside world, and were also subservient to a custom of arranged marriages. She opposed an unwelcome marriage planned for her, and ran away from home on her wedding day at the age of eighteen. Disguised in her
burqa, she journeyed to
Peshwar, the frontier city at the foot of the
Khyber Pass; nothing definite is known about her life until her subsequent move to
Rawalpindi many years later. It was in or near that city she “lead an ascetic life for some years”
[1] and eventually came into contact with a Hindu
sadguru. Following instruction from the guru, “she went into seclusion in a nearby mountain outside Rawalpindi and underwent very severe Riyaz (spiritual austerities) for nearly seventeen months. Thereafter she came down to [the] Punjab and stayed a few months in
Multan. It was in Multan, while [Babajan] was 37 years of age, she contacted a Muslim saint … who put end to her spiritual struggle by giving her God-realisation”.
[2] After that experience she returned to Rawalpindi to reconnect with the Hindu guru who, after several years, helped her return to normal consciousness.
Stephen Castro 12:03, 26 May 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephen Castro ( talk • contribs)
Another two revised proposed sections below. That’s all I have time for this weekend. It may be a few weeks before I can look at the other remaining sections. I wish to clarify that I am merely attempting to provide a framework which, it is sincerely hoped, other editors with knowledge of the subject will wish contribute towards. I have tried to steer clear of creating a hagiography – not easy! I have deliberately left out the bit about Upasni Maharaj, etc, as this does not seem appropriate; the article is about Babajan. Other matters concerning Meher Baba are dealt with elsewhere on Wikipedia. (I’m also not too happy with the section title, “Master to Meher Baba”.) Babajan was a saint with a largely Muslim following, yet she also appealed to Hindus, and to a lesser extent, Zoroastrians. She is therefore a subject in her own right, and not just an appendage to the Meher Baba movement. However, that is a personal view, and as I stated in an earlier comment: I will seek consensus before posting to the main article. What I would like to do next is to look at the “Travel and pilgrimages” section (which seems okay), but to end that section once Babajan resides in Pune, and then add two new sections: “Life in Pune” and “Final years”.
Master to Meher Baba
In May 1913, Merwan Sheriar Irani, then nineteen years old, was riding his bicycle on the way to class at Deccan College, when he looked up and saw an old woman sitting under a neem tree surrounded by a crowd. He had cycled past on previous occasions, but had never paid any attention to her, though he was vaguely aware that she was regarded by some as a Muslim saint; but then, others thought her “a mad women or a witch or sorceress”. [1] Yet his father, Sheriar Irani, though born into a Zoroastrian family, had been a itinerant dervish for a number of years [2] before finally marrying and settling in Pune, held Babajan in high regard. Babajan beckoned the boy, who in turn was drawn towards her. For several months thereafter Merwan Irani would visit the saint; they would sit together yet seldom spoke. One night during January 1914, he was about to leave, and before doing so kissed Babajan’s hands, and she in turn held his face in her hands. She then kissed him on the forehead, during which she bestowed her spiritual grace ( barakah) upon him. The event subsequently left Merwan Irani in an enraptured, blissful state in which he remained abstracted from his normal surroundings for nine months. The young man would later become known as, Meher Baba.
Shrine in Pune
Hazrat Babajan died in the Char Bawdi section of Pune on September 21, 1931. On Wednesday, September 23, The Evening News of India reported her death. The newspaper article informed that the “Muslim community in [Pune] has been greatly moved by the death of the famous saint…. Her funeral yesterday … was very largely attended with thousands of people both Muslims and Hindus taking part in the procession”. [3] The white marble dargah (shrine) of Babajan was built alongside the neem tree under which she had sat for so many years, by the roadside which is now a busy thoroughfare. “It is a small one roomed dargah with the turbat placed under a tree. The trunk of the tree emerges through the rooftop”. [4] Her dargah is frequented by people of all religions.
References
Stephen Castro 21:32, 4 June 2011 (UTC) (
talk •
contribs)
The idea of changing the infobox to a saint template is good. But some of the information changes are problematic. As the article clearly states the year of Babajan's birth is far from known, let alone certain. It is one of the most enigmatic aspects of her biography. Second she was not known by anyone as far as I know as "Saint Hazrat Babajan." Also the removal of her own master as an influence on her, and to say that she was influenced by her own disciple Meher Baba doesn't make a lot of sense. Dazedbythebell ( talk) 18:50, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Apart from Hazrat Babajan's age discussion here I am very perplexed by her birthplace controversy here. During her her early life the later North West Frontier Province was indeed an eastern Afghanistan province and was not actually absorbed into British India until 1901 - it is the same region of NWFP of Pakistan that is now known as Pakhtunkhwa (since March 2010). So if Hazrat Babajan mentioned Afghanistan as her birthplace then it is very likely that she really is from the part that was eastern Afghnistan and included present day Balochistan. It should also be noted that present day Balochistan in Pakistan was part of that eastern Afghan province. So the editors should consult the geography that is contemporaneous with the early period of the subject's life and not that of the last hundred plus years. Moarrikh ( talk) 16:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
I deleted the section added by Danice thrall that was copied and pasted from Perfect Master (Meher Baba)#The Five Perfect Masters, an article on the teachings of Meher Baba. This is a teaching by Meher Baba, and does not belong in the Wikipedia article about Hazrat Babajan. Dazedbythebell ( talk) 22:15, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
"This article or section needs sources or references that appear in reliable, third-party publications." What's that? a third-party publication?
Hi Jossi. Austerlitz -- 88.75.208.203 ( talk) 09:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
"through the Middle Eastern, in places such as Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Mecca" is not an improvement of a grammatical irregularity. Cott12 ( talk) 22:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
This article or section needs sources or references that appear in reliable, third-party publications. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.75.72.6 ( talk) 17:30, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
If the birth and death dates currently in the article are correct, then she would have been 125 when she died. Making her three years older than the oldest women ever recorded. I find this hard to believe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.226.245.147 ( talk) 05:33, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for this. It was very nicely written. It ought to be published somewhere. No objections from me as to the section. Sounds like you made your case. Dazedbythebell ( talk) 00:53, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
To give a general idea of some initial amendments that are probably necessary in order to include the differing published views, I provide an example below. I also feel the rest of the article could be improved, yet still retaining most of the current text. Again, are there any objections, or does anyone have a better suggestion?
Hazrat Babajan (c. 1806 – September 21 1931) was a
Pathan (Pashtun)
Muslim
Sufi
saint considered by her followers to be a
sadguru or
qutub. Born in either
Afghanistan or
Baluchistan (what is now
Pakistan), she lived the final 25 years of her life in
Pune,
India.
Early life & realization
The earliest recorded account of Babajan, who was named at birth Gulrukh “Face like a Rose”, states that she “is the daughter of one of the ministers of the Amir of Afghanistan.” [1] Later accounts report that Babajan “hails from Afghanistan … and was the daughter of a well-to-do Afghan of noble lineage”; [2] “Her father was one of the chieftains of the Afghan empire”; [3] and more recently, “born to a royal Muslim family of Baluchistan”. [4] The precise date of Babajan’s birth is unclear. Biography variants range from 1790 [5] to c. 1820. [6]
References
Stephen Castro 16:47, 20 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Stephen Castro (
talk •
contribs)
As I have some time off work today, please see below a proposed draft suggestion to replace the 2nd para for the “Early life & realization” section. I will go through the remaining sections in due course, and when time permits. I will seek consensus before making any changes.
Following the conventions of Afghan aristocracy, Babajan was reared under the strict
purdah tradition, in which women were secluded from the outside world, and were also subservient to a custom of arranged marriages. She opposed an unwelcome marriage planned for her, and ran away from home on her wedding day at the age of eighteen. Disguised in her
burqa, she journeyed to
Peshwar, the frontier city at the foot of the
Khyber Pass; nothing definite is known about her life until her subsequent move to
Rawalpindi many years later. It was in or near that city she “lead an ascetic life for some years”
[1] and eventually came into contact with a Hindu
sadguru. Following instruction from the guru, “she went into seclusion in a nearby mountain outside Rawalpindi and underwent very severe Riyaz (spiritual austerities) for nearly seventeen months. Thereafter she came down to [the] Punjab and stayed a few months in
Multan. It was in Multan, while [Babajan] was 37 years of age, she contacted a Muslim saint … who put end to her spiritual struggle by giving her God-realisation”.
[2] After that experience she returned to Rawalpindi to reconnect with the Hindu guru who, after several years, helped her return to normal consciousness.
Stephen Castro 12:03, 26 May 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephen Castro ( talk • contribs)
Another two revised proposed sections below. That’s all I have time for this weekend. It may be a few weeks before I can look at the other remaining sections. I wish to clarify that I am merely attempting to provide a framework which, it is sincerely hoped, other editors with knowledge of the subject will wish contribute towards. I have tried to steer clear of creating a hagiography – not easy! I have deliberately left out the bit about Upasni Maharaj, etc, as this does not seem appropriate; the article is about Babajan. Other matters concerning Meher Baba are dealt with elsewhere on Wikipedia. (I’m also not too happy with the section title, “Master to Meher Baba”.) Babajan was a saint with a largely Muslim following, yet she also appealed to Hindus, and to a lesser extent, Zoroastrians. She is therefore a subject in her own right, and not just an appendage to the Meher Baba movement. However, that is a personal view, and as I stated in an earlier comment: I will seek consensus before posting to the main article. What I would like to do next is to look at the “Travel and pilgrimages” section (which seems okay), but to end that section once Babajan resides in Pune, and then add two new sections: “Life in Pune” and “Final years”.
Master to Meher Baba
In May 1913, Merwan Sheriar Irani, then nineteen years old, was riding his bicycle on the way to class at Deccan College, when he looked up and saw an old woman sitting under a neem tree surrounded by a crowd. He had cycled past on previous occasions, but had never paid any attention to her, though he was vaguely aware that she was regarded by some as a Muslim saint; but then, others thought her “a mad women or a witch or sorceress”. [1] Yet his father, Sheriar Irani, though born into a Zoroastrian family, had been a itinerant dervish for a number of years [2] before finally marrying and settling in Pune, held Babajan in high regard. Babajan beckoned the boy, who in turn was drawn towards her. For several months thereafter Merwan Irani would visit the saint; they would sit together yet seldom spoke. One night during January 1914, he was about to leave, and before doing so kissed Babajan’s hands, and she in turn held his face in her hands. She then kissed him on the forehead, during which she bestowed her spiritual grace ( barakah) upon him. The event subsequently left Merwan Irani in an enraptured, blissful state in which he remained abstracted from his normal surroundings for nine months. The young man would later become known as, Meher Baba.
Shrine in Pune
Hazrat Babajan died in the Char Bawdi section of Pune on September 21, 1931. On Wednesday, September 23, The Evening News of India reported her death. The newspaper article informed that the “Muslim community in [Pune] has been greatly moved by the death of the famous saint…. Her funeral yesterday … was very largely attended with thousands of people both Muslims and Hindus taking part in the procession”. [3] The white marble dargah (shrine) of Babajan was built alongside the neem tree under which she had sat for so many years, by the roadside which is now a busy thoroughfare. “It is a small one roomed dargah with the turbat placed under a tree. The trunk of the tree emerges through the rooftop”. [4] Her dargah is frequented by people of all religions.
References
Stephen Castro 21:32, 4 June 2011 (UTC) (
talk •
contribs)
The idea of changing the infobox to a saint template is good. But some of the information changes are problematic. As the article clearly states the year of Babajan's birth is far from known, let alone certain. It is one of the most enigmatic aspects of her biography. Second she was not known by anyone as far as I know as "Saint Hazrat Babajan." Also the removal of her own master as an influence on her, and to say that she was influenced by her own disciple Meher Baba doesn't make a lot of sense. Dazedbythebell ( talk) 18:50, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Apart from Hazrat Babajan's age discussion here I am very perplexed by her birthplace controversy here. During her her early life the later North West Frontier Province was indeed an eastern Afghanistan province and was not actually absorbed into British India until 1901 - it is the same region of NWFP of Pakistan that is now known as Pakhtunkhwa (since March 2010). So if Hazrat Babajan mentioned Afghanistan as her birthplace then it is very likely that she really is from the part that was eastern Afghnistan and included present day Balochistan. It should also be noted that present day Balochistan in Pakistan was part of that eastern Afghan province. So the editors should consult the geography that is contemporaneous with the early period of the subject's life and not that of the last hundred plus years. Moarrikh ( talk) 16:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
I deleted the section added by Danice thrall that was copied and pasted from Perfect Master (Meher Baba)#The Five Perfect Masters, an article on the teachings of Meher Baba. This is a teaching by Meher Baba, and does not belong in the Wikipedia article about Hazrat Babajan. Dazedbythebell ( talk) 22:15, 19 November 2014 (UTC)