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The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn This is clearly not happening.
* Pppery *it has begun... 17:30, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose, why is there any need to disambiguate it when there isn't another article called Haymarket railway station?
G-13114 (
talk) 22:47, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Because there are other railway stations called "Haymarket", which I could see someone referring to as "Haymarket railway station".
* Pppery *it has begun... 22:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose the other stations are either in the US so wouldn't be referred to as "railway stations", bus stations, or don't have an article. I don't see any need to move the article.
Garuda3 (
talk) 10:26, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The hatnote to the dab page suffices to allow anyone who comes here looking for a different station to find what they are looking for. This station is the primary topic for "Haymarket railway station".
Thryduulf (
talk) 12:29, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose Clearly the primary topic. --
Redrose64 🌹 (
talk) 17:29, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A bot will list this discussion on
requested moves' current discussions
subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the
closing instructions). Please base arguments on
article title policy, and keep discussion
succinct and
civil.
Note for anyone that has or is planning to vote 'oppose', please note that (per
WP:UKSTATION) states that if a railway station also serves tram, DLR or metro[1] station, then it is titled 'X station' rather than 'X railway station'. Yes, its a railway station but in this case, the tram stop is just outside the station, like with
East Croydon station. Regarding Birmingham New Streets and case, it is in the same position as Haymarkets but the tram stop is not called '(Birmingham) New Street' but 'Grand Central'. I could argue that
Grand Central tram stop should redirect to New Street station followed by a rename, but that should be discussed elsewhere.
JuniperChill (
talk) 12:10, 15 June 2024 (UTC)reply
As I archived this page up to the Feb RM, there was a discussion earlier from late 2015 about this thing. It can be found at
/Archive 1#NamingJuniperChill (
talk) 15:30, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Strong support I moved it ages back, but someone moved it back here. There's no justification for it still being at 'railway station' any more. It's been in contravention of the
naming policy for far too long.
G-13114 (
talk) 21:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Can't believe it has been discussed many times, but no one has started a proper RM discussion until now. It was discussed
above, as well as
here. I also unintentionally started this RM exactly 4 months after the previous one.
JuniperChill (
talk) 22:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose for consistency. Haymarket is a railway station, even though the road outside has a tram stop and a few bus stops. Minor point: a qualifier such as (UK) would be ambiguous with
Haymarket Metro station to any reader who is not intimately familiar with every nuance of Wikipedia station naming.
Certes (
talk) 18:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The exact location of the tram stop doesn't matter, and it isn't on the street it's just off the street outside the entrance. Exactly the same arrangement exists at
East Croydon station, a railway station with a tram stop in the street outside the main entrance with the same name. The point is it's a transport interchange between two systems on the same site, which clearly makes it multi-modal.
G-13114 (
talk) 05:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"Haymarket station" is certainly a much more common name. I live a few miles away, and I don't think I've ever heard or read the words "Haymarket railway station" beyond Wikipedia, even in the years before the tram. However, our railway editors have implemented a clear and longstanding local consensus which inserts "railway" into such titles. There may be an argument that
WP:COMMONNAME should override
WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, but it's not specific to Haymarket, so this page may not be the place to debate it.
Certes (
talk) 09:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
You haven't answered any of the points I made. There is a clear longstanding consensus for multi-modal stations to be at "x station" rather than "x railway station". The situation here is exactly the same as East Croydon station.
G-13114 (
talk) 09:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose. How many Haymarket stations are there that it need disambiguation?
Murgatroyd49 (
talk) 18:23, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
That's not the point, the point is it's a multi-modal station.
G-13114 (
talk) 05:34, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose. It's a railway station with a tram stop outside it, just like hundreds of other railway stations around the world. The railway station is far and away the most significant part. And it's the clear primary topic for "Haymarket railway station". --
Necrothesp (
talk) 09:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
As I pointed out above, the situation here is exactly the same as
East Croydon station, it's a multi-modal interchange, and thus comes under the naming policy for multi-modal stations. There is quite simply no policy based reason for this to be at "railway station".
G-13114 (
talk) 09:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Yeah, for anyone voting oppose, they should read
WP:UKSTATION first where if a railway station also serves the metro, tram or DLR, then 'Foo railway station' becomes 'Foo station'. This will soon happen to
Blackpool North railway station now that the tram extension should open in the summer.
JuniperChill (
talk) 10:18, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
It's a railway station with a tram stop outside, the tram stop is not an integral part of the station.
Murgatroyd49 (
talk) 11:19, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Indeed there's possibly a debate to be had over what exactly constitutes a multi-modal station. However if East Croydon and Wolverhampton etc stations are named as multi-modal, then there's really no defence for the position that this shouldn't be as well. I notice that none of the oppose voters have attempted to engage with this point.
G-13114 (
talk) 07:23, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Only if the word "Edinburgh" actually appears on the station signage. --
Redrose64 🌹 (
talk) 07:36, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose Clear primary topic is the fact that it's a mainline railway station served by long-distance trains that has existed for 178 years versus a recent light rail stop which isn't even part of the station. If it was a proper multi-modal interchange then I could understand the concept more, but we shouldn't be changing the names of articles because a tram line happens to appear in the road outside (see also
Birmingham New Street railway station, which we don't change merely because a tram stops outside one of the entrances).
Black Kite (talk) 09:22, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Birmingham New Street is different as the tram stop outside is called Grand Central, the critical difference here is that they both have the same name and are on the same property. And BNS was at 'station' at one time, before someone moved it back without any discussion.
G-13114 (
talk) 10:20, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Fair point re BHM, but IMHO we shouldn't be doing this at all unless they're proper integrated interchanges.
Black Kite (talk) 13:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
What's your definition of a proper integrated interchange?
G-13114 (
talk) 09:49, 15 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment I haven't seen any policy based objections to this move, just a lot of
WP:I DON'T LIKE IT type comments. And people denying that it's multi-modal, even though its situation is exactly the same as numerous other stations which are named "x station" as has been listed above. An argument which none of the oppose voters have even engaged with. Unless any policy based objections can be argued, then the oppose votes really carry very little weight in my view.
G-13114 (
talk) 10:20, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Serious question - why does the fact that a station has a tram stop situated 50/100m from the main building justify a different article name than every other station on the network? East Croydon is a good case in point and going back through the page revisions, I don't see a clear justification. The argument that "it's just like that" is not enough, especially given that the naming policy is such a mess after external editors with no knowledge of the subject-matter forced through changes which result in quite unnatural titles.
Lamberhurst (
talk) 13:12, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose, the statement that both the railway station and tram stop are on the same property is incorrect. Much like with
Birmingham New Street railway station and
Grand Central tram stop, the railway station is on land owned by Network Rail, while the tram stop sits outside of the station's boundaries on land owned by the local authority.
Eukrane (
talk) 23:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure that's correct, the tram stop is on the station forecourt, right outside the entrance. See
google mapsG-13114 (
talk) 09:49, 15 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The railway station and the tram stop are on opposite sides of Rosebery House, a commercial office block unconnected to the railway. They are not two parts of one integrated multi-modal interchange.
Certes (
talk) 17:54, 15 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Nonsense, the tram stop is on the station forecourt, practically right outside the main entrance, as you can see in this
Google streetview.
G-13114 (
talk) 11:58, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Clearly shows the stops are outside Rosebery House.
Murgatroyd49 (
talk) 16:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The actual stops are further back
Murgatroyd49 (
talk) 18:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
If you go to
https://scotlis.ros.gov.uk/map-search and search EH12 5EY you can see the official boundaries for the station and tram stop, which should hopefully clarify where they sit in relation to each other. You can see that the tram stop is a separate entity but does extend to right beside the station.
[1] also refers to the tram stop as being "located just outside of" the station. I don't have a strong opinion on how that affects the article name one way or the other.
JaggedHamster (
talk) 20:20, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I feel like an
RFC may be necessary to clarify on the policy of article titles of UK railway stations that also serve a tram (or metro/DLR) at
WP:UKSTATION. If an RFC is needed, then it needs to be after this RM discussion has concluded to prevent confusion. While most railway stations follow the guideline, This article was at its (possibly) incorrect name for 10 years now and no one changed it although there was a now-archived discussion on it.
I think that
Blackpool North railway station is in a similar vein, now that the tram system opened. A request was made at
WP:RM/TR (
permalink). The tram stop is just like
a 1 min walk across the road (just note that the satilite view is c. 2022) while Haymarket isn't. Anymore further discussions regarding Blackpools case would/should remain at that talk page.
JuniperChill (
talk) 20:56, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisting comment: While the "oppose" arguments are more numerous, the "support" arguments appear to have less weight as they are contrary to policy based on the train and tram station appearing to be part of a single multi-modal station based on the current content of the article. Relisting to give time for additional participation, as well as for editors in support and opposition of the proposal to provide sources demonstrating whether the stations are seperate or combined.
BilledMammal (
talk) 06:05, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
References
^meaning a
London Underground,
Glasgow Subway or
Tyne and Wear Metro station. I used metro because that is the generic UK term, its just that each system is called its own name. Meaning that the London Underground is a metro, it's just that it is called the underground or tube
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Trains, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to
rail transport on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the
project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the
discussion. See also:
WikiProject Trains to do list and the
Trains Portal.TrainsWikipedia:WikiProject TrainsTemplate:WikiProject Trainsrail transport articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Edinburgh, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Edinburgh on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EdinburghWikipedia:WikiProject EdinburghTemplate:WikiProject EdinburghEdinburgh articles
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn This is clearly not happening.
* Pppery *it has begun... 17:30, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose, why is there any need to disambiguate it when there isn't another article called Haymarket railway station?
G-13114 (
talk) 22:47, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Because there are other railway stations called "Haymarket", which I could see someone referring to as "Haymarket railway station".
* Pppery *it has begun... 22:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose the other stations are either in the US so wouldn't be referred to as "railway stations", bus stations, or don't have an article. I don't see any need to move the article.
Garuda3 (
talk) 10:26, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The hatnote to the dab page suffices to allow anyone who comes here looking for a different station to find what they are looking for. This station is the primary topic for "Haymarket railway station".
Thryduulf (
talk) 12:29, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose Clearly the primary topic. --
Redrose64 🌹 (
talk) 17:29, 11 February 2024 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A bot will list this discussion on
requested moves' current discussions
subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the
closing instructions). Please base arguments on
article title policy, and keep discussion
succinct and
civil.
Note for anyone that has or is planning to vote 'oppose', please note that (per
WP:UKSTATION) states that if a railway station also serves tram, DLR or metro[1] station, then it is titled 'X station' rather than 'X railway station'. Yes, its a railway station but in this case, the tram stop is just outside the station, like with
East Croydon station. Regarding Birmingham New Streets and case, it is in the same position as Haymarkets but the tram stop is not called '(Birmingham) New Street' but 'Grand Central'. I could argue that
Grand Central tram stop should redirect to New Street station followed by a rename, but that should be discussed elsewhere.
JuniperChill (
talk) 12:10, 15 June 2024 (UTC)reply
As I archived this page up to the Feb RM, there was a discussion earlier from late 2015 about this thing. It can be found at
/Archive 1#NamingJuniperChill (
talk) 15:30, 17 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Strong support I moved it ages back, but someone moved it back here. There's no justification for it still being at 'railway station' any more. It's been in contravention of the
naming policy for far too long.
G-13114 (
talk) 21:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Can't believe it has been discussed many times, but no one has started a proper RM discussion until now. It was discussed
above, as well as
here. I also unintentionally started this RM exactly 4 months after the previous one.
JuniperChill (
talk) 22:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose for consistency. Haymarket is a railway station, even though the road outside has a tram stop and a few bus stops. Minor point: a qualifier such as (UK) would be ambiguous with
Haymarket Metro station to any reader who is not intimately familiar with every nuance of Wikipedia station naming.
Certes (
talk) 18:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The exact location of the tram stop doesn't matter, and it isn't on the street it's just off the street outside the entrance. Exactly the same arrangement exists at
East Croydon station, a railway station with a tram stop in the street outside the main entrance with the same name. The point is it's a transport interchange between two systems on the same site, which clearly makes it multi-modal.
G-13114 (
talk) 05:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
"Haymarket station" is certainly a much more common name. I live a few miles away, and I don't think I've ever heard or read the words "Haymarket railway station" beyond Wikipedia, even in the years before the tram. However, our railway editors have implemented a clear and longstanding local consensus which inserts "railway" into such titles. There may be an argument that
WP:COMMONNAME should override
WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, but it's not specific to Haymarket, so this page may not be the place to debate it.
Certes (
talk) 09:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
You haven't answered any of the points I made. There is a clear longstanding consensus for multi-modal stations to be at "x station" rather than "x railway station". The situation here is exactly the same as East Croydon station.
G-13114 (
talk) 09:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose. How many Haymarket stations are there that it need disambiguation?
Murgatroyd49 (
talk) 18:23, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
That's not the point, the point is it's a multi-modal station.
G-13114 (
talk) 05:34, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose. It's a railway station with a tram stop outside it, just like hundreds of other railway stations around the world. The railway station is far and away the most significant part. And it's the clear primary topic for "Haymarket railway station". --
Necrothesp (
talk) 09:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
As I pointed out above, the situation here is exactly the same as
East Croydon station, it's a multi-modal interchange, and thus comes under the naming policy for multi-modal stations. There is quite simply no policy based reason for this to be at "railway station".
G-13114 (
talk) 09:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Yeah, for anyone voting oppose, they should read
WP:UKSTATION first where if a railway station also serves the metro, tram or DLR, then 'Foo railway station' becomes 'Foo station'. This will soon happen to
Blackpool North railway station now that the tram extension should open in the summer.
JuniperChill (
talk) 10:18, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
It's a railway station with a tram stop outside, the tram stop is not an integral part of the station.
Murgatroyd49 (
talk) 11:19, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Indeed there's possibly a debate to be had over what exactly constitutes a multi-modal station. However if East Croydon and Wolverhampton etc stations are named as multi-modal, then there's really no defence for the position that this shouldn't be as well. I notice that none of the oppose voters have attempted to engage with this point.
G-13114 (
talk) 07:23, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Only if the word "Edinburgh" actually appears on the station signage. --
Redrose64 🌹 (
talk) 07:36, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose Clear primary topic is the fact that it's a mainline railway station served by long-distance trains that has existed for 178 years versus a recent light rail stop which isn't even part of the station. If it was a proper multi-modal interchange then I could understand the concept more, but we shouldn't be changing the names of articles because a tram line happens to appear in the road outside (see also
Birmingham New Street railway station, which we don't change merely because a tram stops outside one of the entrances).
Black Kite (talk) 09:22, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Birmingham New Street is different as the tram stop outside is called Grand Central, the critical difference here is that they both have the same name and are on the same property. And BNS was at 'station' at one time, before someone moved it back without any discussion.
G-13114 (
talk) 10:20, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Fair point re BHM, but IMHO we shouldn't be doing this at all unless they're proper integrated interchanges.
Black Kite (talk) 13:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
What's your definition of a proper integrated interchange?
G-13114 (
talk) 09:49, 15 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment I haven't seen any policy based objections to this move, just a lot of
WP:I DON'T LIKE IT type comments. And people denying that it's multi-modal, even though its situation is exactly the same as numerous other stations which are named "x station" as has been listed above. An argument which none of the oppose voters have even engaged with. Unless any policy based objections can be argued, then the oppose votes really carry very little weight in my view.
G-13114 (
talk) 10:20, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Serious question - why does the fact that a station has a tram stop situated 50/100m from the main building justify a different article name than every other station on the network? East Croydon is a good case in point and going back through the page revisions, I don't see a clear justification. The argument that "it's just like that" is not enough, especially given that the naming policy is such a mess after external editors with no knowledge of the subject-matter forced through changes which result in quite unnatural titles.
Lamberhurst (
talk) 13:12, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose, the statement that both the railway station and tram stop are on the same property is incorrect. Much like with
Birmingham New Street railway station and
Grand Central tram stop, the railway station is on land owned by Network Rail, while the tram stop sits outside of the station's boundaries on land owned by the local authority.
Eukrane (
talk) 23:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure that's correct, the tram stop is on the station forecourt, right outside the entrance. See
google mapsG-13114 (
talk) 09:49, 15 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The railway station and the tram stop are on opposite sides of Rosebery House, a commercial office block unconnected to the railway. They are not two parts of one integrated multi-modal interchange.
Certes (
talk) 17:54, 15 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Nonsense, the tram stop is on the station forecourt, practically right outside the main entrance, as you can see in this
Google streetview.
G-13114 (
talk) 11:58, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Clearly shows the stops are outside Rosebery House.
Murgatroyd49 (
talk) 16:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The actual stops are further back
Murgatroyd49 (
talk) 18:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
If you go to
https://scotlis.ros.gov.uk/map-search and search EH12 5EY you can see the official boundaries for the station and tram stop, which should hopefully clarify where they sit in relation to each other. You can see that the tram stop is a separate entity but does extend to right beside the station.
[1] also refers to the tram stop as being "located just outside of" the station. I don't have a strong opinion on how that affects the article name one way or the other.
JaggedHamster (
talk) 20:20, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I feel like an
RFC may be necessary to clarify on the policy of article titles of UK railway stations that also serve a tram (or metro/DLR) at
WP:UKSTATION. If an RFC is needed, then it needs to be after this RM discussion has concluded to prevent confusion. While most railway stations follow the guideline, This article was at its (possibly) incorrect name for 10 years now and no one changed it although there was a now-archived discussion on it.
I think that
Blackpool North railway station is in a similar vein, now that the tram system opened. A request was made at
WP:RM/TR (
permalink). The tram stop is just like
a 1 min walk across the road (just note that the satilite view is c. 2022) while Haymarket isn't. Anymore further discussions regarding Blackpools case would/should remain at that talk page.
JuniperChill (
talk) 20:56, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisting comment: While the "oppose" arguments are more numerous, the "support" arguments appear to have less weight as they are contrary to policy based on the train and tram station appearing to be part of a single multi-modal station based on the current content of the article. Relisting to give time for additional participation, as well as for editors in support and opposition of the proposal to provide sources demonstrating whether the stations are seperate or combined.
BilledMammal (
talk) 06:05, 19 June 2024 (UTC)reply
References
^meaning a
London Underground,
Glasgow Subway or
Tyne and Wear Metro station. I used metro because that is the generic UK term, its just that each system is called its own name. Meaning that the London Underground is a metro, it's just that it is called the underground or tube