This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Due to the aggressive growth of activity on the talk page for the Wikipedia article on Hawaii and for the sake of efficiency of loading the page onto your computer, discussion threads considered "inactive" for a considerable amount of time have been moved to this archive page. If you would like to revive any of these inactive dicussions, please feel free start a new discussion thread on the active talk page. Also, before making any major changes to the Hawaii article, it is recommended that editors browse through the archives to accommodate specific concerns.
Marshman and folks, I've added the controversial part of Hawaii's history up front in graf two, and it is unusual. However, given the rest of the top of the page, which talks about US statehood, state flag, US census, etc., it is not unreasonable to at least highlight the anomalous way it became part of the United States. Congress apologized for the illegal overthrow of the government, so this is not a fringe separatist statement. Fuzheado 01:23, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
-- Jerzy 03:51, 2004 Feb 14 (UTC)
In my work today on the history section, my concern was to fix the three new links, which by virtue of redirects pointed to only one other page. An important element of my solution was adding subsections to the history section, so that the reader has a clear pointer to History of Hawai'i, where the dynasties are documented in detail.
As to the Sandwich Islands link, it is hard to imagine that topic ever deserving a page separate from the three names (currently two pages) linked by the new dab Hawai'i. If i simply lack imagination, there's no harm and some benefit in waiting until someone proves me wrong by turning that redir into an article.
I made an entry here, tho, mainly not to make minor changes, that the summary allowed to little space to comment on, without making comment that others might see as needed. I reverted some 'okinas in "Hawai'i'", according to the following, which i find consistent with previous discussion that i can't at the moment locate:
My newspapers (Honolulu Star Bulletin and Honolulu Advertiser) are English language papers (100%)—they use Hawai‘i. This is not a Hawaiian language vs English issue. Hawai‘i is the official spelling of the State according to state law. Also followed by the Counties. The USGS is converting its maps over to use Hawaiian spellings of place names, and federal websites are presently a mix of both spellings. Clearly the trend within the US is to use "Hawai‘i" and not "Hawaii". You can be ignorant of this issue and change things back to Hawaii for all kinds of reasons. We have kept the article name Hawaii to help out the search engines, but quite frankly I'm thinking now it is probably time to change that to Hawai'i, which would work just fine. In one, or two, or ten years, "Hawaii" will be just plain wrong. I suppose the Wikipedia trolls will, by then, just move on to other hassles - Marshman 17:02, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Why is this article using the Hawaiian language name? Marshman pointed me to talk, but the earlier discussion does not explain this. On the contrary, Marshman himself said: "The fact is, that place names ARE in English up to a point for countries, states, large cities; but after that, local names prevail. That seems like the only reasonable and intelligent treatment for English Wikipedia. I'm not interested in having Hawai'i treated any differently." Is Hawaii not a state then? Gzornenplatz 16:52, Jul 15, 2004 (UTC)
I have given this some thought, and I have a compromise. The truth of the matter, both "Hawaii" and "Hawai‘i" are official names of the political entity, since one is supposedly English and the other is supposedly Hawaiian. As a political name in English it is Hawaii. In every other case, unless specifically otherwise, it is Hawai‘i. Even English-language Honolulu newspapers prefer the ‘okina in the spelling at all times. It is also a common pronunciation used even in English for the entire region, homestead, way of life, etc. in general. As such, it is not anachronistic nor is it Hawaiian-only. As a political entity in English only, it is Hawaii. It is also U.S.S. Hawaii and Hawaii Five-O, and other similar situations where the spelling is a brand. But in all other cases, Hawai‘i is preferred, even while speaking English. This has been my experience in all my days spent in Hawai‘i, having been born there and visited approximately one hundred times (and not for tourism, mind you). And to be truthful, I don't have a whole lot of respect for outsiders trying to enforce a haole Washington, D.C. political standard on the name in all English language situations. - Gilgamesh 22:28, 15 July 2004 (UTC)
In terms of this language debate on Wikipedia of a so-called American-British English-only rule, Hawai‘i State Supreme Court Chief Justice William S. Richardson said it best, "The western concept of exclusivity is not universally applicable in Hawai'i." Just something to think about. -- Gerald Farinas 00:26, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Now there are anonymous users picking through all the Hawaii State Judiciary and related articles, removing all uses of 'okina and kahako when the Hawaii State Judiciary itself uses the 'okina in its official name and all its documents. [1] -- Gerald Farinas 01:16, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Instead of constantly changing the introductory paragraph endlessly, maybe it might be a good idea to propose introductory paragraphs here in the talk page so it could be discussed and explicated? Doing so might make it easier to strike a compromise and finally hammer out something we can all agree with. That's just my little suggestion if it means anything. Jerry
I also think someone else was onto something when he or she began the introductory paragraph, "Hawaii, also formally spelled by Hawaiian-language classicists as Hawai‘i with an ‘okina." Maybe we can refine that version and the one we have now by Marshman into something everyone can agree with? Jerry
Why does the introduction now mention "official British government spelling"? I don't think the British government has an official spelling for Hawaii. Gzornenplatz 17:34, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)
To pardon the rarely used (by me) and thoughtfully-applied expletive, this is just bullshit. How is the English as spoken in Hawai‘i considered "wrong" because it doesn't match the English of Chicago or Oxford? It has some differences of convention. And if Hawai‘'s local English-speaking population and local state government all prefer "Hawai‘i" with an ‘okina, then who are we to argue with them? This is an area of nuance that should and must be respected. "Hawaii" is a political entity. "Hawai‘i" is a place, and the preferred spelling among the local English-speaking population as well as government institutions. You should notice that I even changed some references of "Hawai‘i" to "Hawaii" when it applied specifically to the state entity as a subdivision of the United States, and to official names of publications that specifically lack the ‘okina. However, I used "Hawai‘i" when applied not only to the place and culture in general, but also to the specific use of the ‘okina when mandated in official names of publications, as well as its preferential use in the state government as applied to the state's internal government and affairs. Language is an organic thing; it doesn't exist as a single monolithic international bloc. Regional languages evolve, they adopt their own conventions, and they even dialectualize, and this is perfectly normal, and well-cherished thing in Hawai‘i. As just another of the U.S. states, it is "Hawaii". But as its own animal, it is "Hawai‘i", and it matters that Hawaiians themselves prefer it that way. It doesn't matter what the norm is in the U.S. Midwest or in southern England. Hawai‘i is an exception to these rules, and it well deserves its exception. - Gilgamesh 06:45, 21 July 2004 (UTC)
Because "color" and "colour" is not a very charged political issue. "Hawaii" and "Hawai‘i" is. There should be a balance between the two, as they are now essentially different words for how they are used. If I absolutely had to choose between one entity or the other, I would choose "Hawai‘i", because "Hawaii" is rarely ever used in Hawai‘i. This is a serious political issue; please show some sensitivity and adhere to the naming conventions agreed both in Hawai‘i and in its government. Consider the same distinctions used today between terms like "Israel" and "Palestine", and between "America" and "the United States of America", and between "Great Britain" and "United Kingdom". It's the same distinction. And so long as the distinction in this situation is laid to waste, there will always be someone disputing the page, and the dispute will never go away. Do you honestly want this article to go to print with such a dispute still in place? This simply will not go away, because it represents a huge social gap that we must acknowledge, not ignore. It would be in extremely poor taste to be insensitive to it. Balancing the different viewpoints to find a middle path is the essence of NPOV. - Gilgamesh 00:53, 22 July 2004 (UTC)
I'd say Gzornenplatz is one of the "editors" (better term than my "developer") having trouble grasping what a hypertext document really means, as evidenced by bringing up something (IMHO) as irrelevant as "a printed version". Is he saying now we have to consider all the ramifications of Wikipedia as a "printed version"? Heaven help us. Why even bother with an online version if we are to be constrained by all the things that constrain a "printed version". Maybe we should just edit by sending emails to some typist. Or maybe we could mail those in. I have to say, after reviewing all the arguments being brought up against Hawai‘i, that it is hard not to conclude he is just screwing with us. I'm waiting for the "Gotch-ya!" ;^) - Marshman 02:10, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps requests for comment will help. And I do think most encyclopaedias are wrong because they are closed haole corporate committees with unaccountable decision making processes, usually with a political or national agenda. Wikipedia is different; it's open to comment. - Gilgamesh 04:34, 23 July 2004 (UTC)
From the image on the Hawaii State Supreme Court and Hawaii State Judiciary articles, the official government seal actually has the words State of Hawai'i (with the okina) emblazoned prominently. -- Keevan Daley 15:11, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Out of fairness to everyone who can contribute to make the Wikipedia Hawaii article right, please do not erase the contribution of another person. I thought this was a site where people could edit and contribute, and not a place where one person could monopolize an article, putting only what he wants in. I took time to put in the demographics of many of Hawaii's ethnic groups. I happened to work with the State of Hawaii DBEDT on the 2000 Census. How unfair and unjust for someone to erase all the other ethnic groups and mainly focus on Japan and the Japanese. It is Hawaii after all and the Native Hawaiians at least deserve to have their percentage separated from a lump sum percentage of Pacific Islanders. The Chinese happened to come next after the Europeans, and became a significant part of the Native Hawaiian population. Also, how fitting to totally exclude "Caucasians" as if they are not really a part of Hawaii and its history. Do not act like a racist by denying the right of all ethnic groups to be represented equally. Anyone looking at the Hawaii Article site would get the false impression that Hawaii is not Hawaiian but Asian and that Caucasians are not a part of Hawaiian history. I am angered that this is still happening. To give a false impression of what Hawaii really is. I live in Hawaii. I know the history and the many peoples that make it so special. Do not deny others the chance to contribute the facts. It does not state that the Hawaii Article site belongs to Gerald Farinas. After I thank you for all of your hard work and effort, you go and erase all of my contribution. This is Hawaii, where many ethnicities and cultures have lived and contributed. Please stop with the denial of all peoples. Ilikea
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Due to the aggressive growth of activity on the talk page for the Wikipedia article on Hawaii and for the sake of efficiency of loading the page onto your computer, discussion threads considered "inactive" for a considerable amount of time have been moved to this archive page. If you would like to revive any of these inactive dicussions, please feel free start a new discussion thread on the active talk page. Also, before making any major changes to the Hawaii article, it is recommended that editors browse through the archives to accommodate specific concerns.
Marshman and folks, I've added the controversial part of Hawaii's history up front in graf two, and it is unusual. However, given the rest of the top of the page, which talks about US statehood, state flag, US census, etc., it is not unreasonable to at least highlight the anomalous way it became part of the United States. Congress apologized for the illegal overthrow of the government, so this is not a fringe separatist statement. Fuzheado 01:23, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
-- Jerzy 03:51, 2004 Feb 14 (UTC)
In my work today on the history section, my concern was to fix the three new links, which by virtue of redirects pointed to only one other page. An important element of my solution was adding subsections to the history section, so that the reader has a clear pointer to History of Hawai'i, where the dynasties are documented in detail.
As to the Sandwich Islands link, it is hard to imagine that topic ever deserving a page separate from the three names (currently two pages) linked by the new dab Hawai'i. If i simply lack imagination, there's no harm and some benefit in waiting until someone proves me wrong by turning that redir into an article.
I made an entry here, tho, mainly not to make minor changes, that the summary allowed to little space to comment on, without making comment that others might see as needed. I reverted some 'okinas in "Hawai'i'", according to the following, which i find consistent with previous discussion that i can't at the moment locate:
My newspapers (Honolulu Star Bulletin and Honolulu Advertiser) are English language papers (100%)—they use Hawai‘i. This is not a Hawaiian language vs English issue. Hawai‘i is the official spelling of the State according to state law. Also followed by the Counties. The USGS is converting its maps over to use Hawaiian spellings of place names, and federal websites are presently a mix of both spellings. Clearly the trend within the US is to use "Hawai‘i" and not "Hawaii". You can be ignorant of this issue and change things back to Hawaii for all kinds of reasons. We have kept the article name Hawaii to help out the search engines, but quite frankly I'm thinking now it is probably time to change that to Hawai'i, which would work just fine. In one, or two, or ten years, "Hawaii" will be just plain wrong. I suppose the Wikipedia trolls will, by then, just move on to other hassles - Marshman 17:02, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Why is this article using the Hawaiian language name? Marshman pointed me to talk, but the earlier discussion does not explain this. On the contrary, Marshman himself said: "The fact is, that place names ARE in English up to a point for countries, states, large cities; but after that, local names prevail. That seems like the only reasonable and intelligent treatment for English Wikipedia. I'm not interested in having Hawai'i treated any differently." Is Hawaii not a state then? Gzornenplatz 16:52, Jul 15, 2004 (UTC)
I have given this some thought, and I have a compromise. The truth of the matter, both "Hawaii" and "Hawai‘i" are official names of the political entity, since one is supposedly English and the other is supposedly Hawaiian. As a political name in English it is Hawaii. In every other case, unless specifically otherwise, it is Hawai‘i. Even English-language Honolulu newspapers prefer the ‘okina in the spelling at all times. It is also a common pronunciation used even in English for the entire region, homestead, way of life, etc. in general. As such, it is not anachronistic nor is it Hawaiian-only. As a political entity in English only, it is Hawaii. It is also U.S.S. Hawaii and Hawaii Five-O, and other similar situations where the spelling is a brand. But in all other cases, Hawai‘i is preferred, even while speaking English. This has been my experience in all my days spent in Hawai‘i, having been born there and visited approximately one hundred times (and not for tourism, mind you). And to be truthful, I don't have a whole lot of respect for outsiders trying to enforce a haole Washington, D.C. political standard on the name in all English language situations. - Gilgamesh 22:28, 15 July 2004 (UTC)
In terms of this language debate on Wikipedia of a so-called American-British English-only rule, Hawai‘i State Supreme Court Chief Justice William S. Richardson said it best, "The western concept of exclusivity is not universally applicable in Hawai'i." Just something to think about. -- Gerald Farinas 00:26, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Now there are anonymous users picking through all the Hawaii State Judiciary and related articles, removing all uses of 'okina and kahako when the Hawaii State Judiciary itself uses the 'okina in its official name and all its documents. [1] -- Gerald Farinas 01:16, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Instead of constantly changing the introductory paragraph endlessly, maybe it might be a good idea to propose introductory paragraphs here in the talk page so it could be discussed and explicated? Doing so might make it easier to strike a compromise and finally hammer out something we can all agree with. That's just my little suggestion if it means anything. Jerry
I also think someone else was onto something when he or she began the introductory paragraph, "Hawaii, also formally spelled by Hawaiian-language classicists as Hawai‘i with an ‘okina." Maybe we can refine that version and the one we have now by Marshman into something everyone can agree with? Jerry
Why does the introduction now mention "official British government spelling"? I don't think the British government has an official spelling for Hawaii. Gzornenplatz 17:34, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)
To pardon the rarely used (by me) and thoughtfully-applied expletive, this is just bullshit. How is the English as spoken in Hawai‘i considered "wrong" because it doesn't match the English of Chicago or Oxford? It has some differences of convention. And if Hawai‘'s local English-speaking population and local state government all prefer "Hawai‘i" with an ‘okina, then who are we to argue with them? This is an area of nuance that should and must be respected. "Hawaii" is a political entity. "Hawai‘i" is a place, and the preferred spelling among the local English-speaking population as well as government institutions. You should notice that I even changed some references of "Hawai‘i" to "Hawaii" when it applied specifically to the state entity as a subdivision of the United States, and to official names of publications that specifically lack the ‘okina. However, I used "Hawai‘i" when applied not only to the place and culture in general, but also to the specific use of the ‘okina when mandated in official names of publications, as well as its preferential use in the state government as applied to the state's internal government and affairs. Language is an organic thing; it doesn't exist as a single monolithic international bloc. Regional languages evolve, they adopt their own conventions, and they even dialectualize, and this is perfectly normal, and well-cherished thing in Hawai‘i. As just another of the U.S. states, it is "Hawaii". But as its own animal, it is "Hawai‘i", and it matters that Hawaiians themselves prefer it that way. It doesn't matter what the norm is in the U.S. Midwest or in southern England. Hawai‘i is an exception to these rules, and it well deserves its exception. - Gilgamesh 06:45, 21 July 2004 (UTC)
Because "color" and "colour" is not a very charged political issue. "Hawaii" and "Hawai‘i" is. There should be a balance between the two, as they are now essentially different words for how they are used. If I absolutely had to choose between one entity or the other, I would choose "Hawai‘i", because "Hawaii" is rarely ever used in Hawai‘i. This is a serious political issue; please show some sensitivity and adhere to the naming conventions agreed both in Hawai‘i and in its government. Consider the same distinctions used today between terms like "Israel" and "Palestine", and between "America" and "the United States of America", and between "Great Britain" and "United Kingdom". It's the same distinction. And so long as the distinction in this situation is laid to waste, there will always be someone disputing the page, and the dispute will never go away. Do you honestly want this article to go to print with such a dispute still in place? This simply will not go away, because it represents a huge social gap that we must acknowledge, not ignore. It would be in extremely poor taste to be insensitive to it. Balancing the different viewpoints to find a middle path is the essence of NPOV. - Gilgamesh 00:53, 22 July 2004 (UTC)
I'd say Gzornenplatz is one of the "editors" (better term than my "developer") having trouble grasping what a hypertext document really means, as evidenced by bringing up something (IMHO) as irrelevant as "a printed version". Is he saying now we have to consider all the ramifications of Wikipedia as a "printed version"? Heaven help us. Why even bother with an online version if we are to be constrained by all the things that constrain a "printed version". Maybe we should just edit by sending emails to some typist. Or maybe we could mail those in. I have to say, after reviewing all the arguments being brought up against Hawai‘i, that it is hard not to conclude he is just screwing with us. I'm waiting for the "Gotch-ya!" ;^) - Marshman 02:10, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps requests for comment will help. And I do think most encyclopaedias are wrong because they are closed haole corporate committees with unaccountable decision making processes, usually with a political or national agenda. Wikipedia is different; it's open to comment. - Gilgamesh 04:34, 23 July 2004 (UTC)
From the image on the Hawaii State Supreme Court and Hawaii State Judiciary articles, the official government seal actually has the words State of Hawai'i (with the okina) emblazoned prominently. -- Keevan Daley 15:11, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Out of fairness to everyone who can contribute to make the Wikipedia Hawaii article right, please do not erase the contribution of another person. I thought this was a site where people could edit and contribute, and not a place where one person could monopolize an article, putting only what he wants in. I took time to put in the demographics of many of Hawaii's ethnic groups. I happened to work with the State of Hawaii DBEDT on the 2000 Census. How unfair and unjust for someone to erase all the other ethnic groups and mainly focus on Japan and the Japanese. It is Hawaii after all and the Native Hawaiians at least deserve to have their percentage separated from a lump sum percentage of Pacific Islanders. The Chinese happened to come next after the Europeans, and became a significant part of the Native Hawaiian population. Also, how fitting to totally exclude "Caucasians" as if they are not really a part of Hawaii and its history. Do not act like a racist by denying the right of all ethnic groups to be represented equally. Anyone looking at the Hawaii Article site would get the false impression that Hawaii is not Hawaiian but Asian and that Caucasians are not a part of Hawaiian history. I am angered that this is still happening. To give a false impression of what Hawaii really is. I live in Hawaii. I know the history and the many peoples that make it so special. Do not deny others the chance to contribute the facts. It does not state that the Hawaii Article site belongs to Gerald Farinas. After I thank you for all of your hard work and effort, you go and erase all of my contribution. This is Hawaii, where many ethnicities and cultures have lived and contributed. Please stop with the denial of all peoples. Ilikea