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@ Ms Sarah Welch: The info you added is already present Here. Also Kundalini is a late addition. VictoriaGrayson Talk 15:11, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Iṣṭa Devatā: Mallinson's comments on White are notable. Which Sanderson source on Hatha yoga are you referring to? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:43, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
It seems like a blatant error on Mallinson's part to claim that hatha originally was the semen preservation techniques of Vaishnav renunciants when he also claims hatha was a movement to bring yoga to householders...clearly householder hatha yoga could not coexist with the absolute sexual continence taught in the early texts (such as the mudra version of hatha in the Dattatreya Yoga Śastra). This is why some consider Śiva Samhita the first householder hatha yoga text: it encourages sexual union as opposed to using an internal feminine drop or obtaining uterine blood "by cunning"– instead one can release and then reabsorb mixed sexual essences through the vajroli mudra.
But it is also obvious that the retention model was a reaction to proto-tantric sexual rituals that go back at least to the Vratyas, Skull-bearers and other antinomian groups that have been using sexual magic since the time of the Vedas and were foundational to tantra. These same practices were central to the Tantric Buddhist sources that include our oldest descriptions of hatha, and according to Tibetan tradition, was reformed and internalized in Tibet.
It seems like an arbitrary choice on Mallinson's part to say that hatha refers to this Vaishnav practice first, regardless of how Mughal artists painted yogis or how many Vaiśnav texts are extant in sanskrit. Remember how the majority of early Indian Buddhist texts are lost to history and that Vaiśnavism has been dominant over Śaivism for royal patronage for most of the period in question...of course Vaiśnavs have more surviving texts. Mallinson himself says that scribes were prone to add new lineages at the beginning of old texts, and Dominick Wujastyk wrote a great article on how quickly the old texts deteriorate and disappear if not actively preserved and copied.
Any scholar of Tamil or Tibetan will also tell you that Mallinson is ignoring all the non-sanskrit sources on hatha yoga because he is a Sanskrit philologist. Mallinson also ignores all the aspects of Kundalini within hatha yoga that notably entered through the western stream of tantra (see Dory Heilijgers Seelen and Mark Dyczkowski for more about that)...the Kubjika cult is still the oldest source for most of what we consider hatha, including the image of the coiled snake and the classical cakra system used in most of these sanskrit hatha manuals. Even the Pañcaratra's Bhāgavatam Purāṇa seems to imitate these cakras and concepts in its 'virat rupa' section (although exact sections of Purāṇas are difficult to date because they are compendiums). The oldest usages of the word hatha (according to Mallinson and Jason Birch) come from tantric Buddhist sources...sources that overlapped considerably with Kaulism (a term used in both Buddhist and Hindu traditions).
So the word hatha does not seem to come from Vaisnav texts, but Buddhist texts. The concept of mudras seems to come from śaiva tantra. The concept of sexual union as ritual also predates Mallinson's sources. So by what makeshift definition of hatha can he really assign it to Vaiśnavism? Really the logic by which Mallinson claims Vaiśnavs started hatha yoga is mostly the opinions you would expect of a Vaiśnav scholar who only looks at Sanskrit texts. The Hathayogapradipika cites a lineage of Nathas (who are saints to both Śaiva and Buddhist siddha traditions, not Vaiśnavism) in its opening lines. The Śiva Samhita is also part of the Śri Vidya tradition (the southern stream of Śaiva tantra, related to Kaulism). I think we need a broader basis in this article and less emphasis on what we can mostly call the thoughts of a singlular modern scholar that have not yet stood the test of time or scholastic critique. Right now this article is almost a love letter to Jim...even the sections that were not just borrowed from his encyclopedia entry. Iṣṭa Devatā ( talk) 20:44, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
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Chiswick Chap: Re your message, I merely moved the two images closer to the appropriate section where Joga Pradīpikā is mentioned. The collage used to be the lead image in the older version. It was removed in favor of an image from the Joga Pradīpikā. That felt like an overemphasis of the Joga Pradīpikā. Per our MOS:IMAGES, the collage looks like a better image because it is clearer and more focused on the asana, sans all the dark scenery. Further, by placing the Joga Pradīpikā images closer to where it is mentioned, it aids understanding it in the appropriate context. I am open to any other image collage of asanas that is accurate and meaningfully improves the article from the reader's perspective. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:22, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
According to the
GA-review, A strong lede, most certainly lets the reader know what's coming.
I have to disagree; I had to scroll through the article to "Goals" to find out what Hatha yoga is about. In contrast, this text
In India, haṭha yoga is associated in popular tradition with the Yogis of the Natha Sampradaya through its traditional founder Matsyendranath, who is celebrated as a saint in both Hindu and Buddhist tantric and haṭha yoga schools. Almost all hathayogic texts belong to the Nath siddhas, and the important ones are credited to Matsyendranath's disciple, Gorakhnath or Gorakshanath.[4] According to the Dattatreya Yoga Śastra, there are two forms of haṭha yoga: one practiced by Yajñavalkya consisting of the eight limbs of yoga, and another practiced by Kapila consisting of eight mudras.
is WP:UNDUE; ot contains more information than is contained in the article itself. I'm going to rewrite part of the lead, therefor. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:18, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Chiswick Chap: I'm done; up to you for the fine-tuning. For convenience, I turned
Haṭha yoga is a branch of yoga. The Sanskrit word हठ haṭha literally means "force" and thus alludes to a system of physical techniques. [1] [2]
In India, haṭha yoga is associated in popular tradition with the Yogis of the Natha Sampradaya through its traditional founder Matsyendranath, who is celebrated as a saint in both Hindu and Buddhist tantric and haṭha yoga schools. Almost all hathayogic texts belong to the Nath siddhas, and the important ones are credited to Matsyendranath's disciple, Gorakhnath or Gorakshanath. [3] According to the Dattatreya Yoga Śastra, there are two forms of haṭha yoga: one practiced by Yajñavalkya consisting of the eight limbs of yoga, and another practiced by Kapila consisting of eight mudras.
The oldest dated text so far found to describe haṭha yoga, the 11th-century Amṛtasiddhi, comes from a tantric Buddhist milieu. [4] The oldest texts to use the terminology of hatha are also Vajrayana Buddhist. [2] Later haṭha yoga texts adopt the practices of haṭha yoga mudras into a Saiva system, melding it with Layayoga methods which focus on the raising of kuṇḍalinī through energy channels and chakras.
In the 20th century, a development of haṭha yoga, focusing particularly on asanas (the physical postures), became popular throughout the world as a form of physical exercise. This modern form of yoga is now widely known simply as "yoga".
into
Haṭha yoga is a branch of yoga which uses physical techniques to preserve and channel the vital force or energy. The Sanskrit word हठ haṭha literally means "force" and thus alludes to a system of physical techniques. [1] [2] Some haṭha yoga style techniques can be traced back at least to the 1st-century CE, in texts such as the Sanskrit epics (Hinduism) and the Pali canon (Buddhism). [5] The oldest dated text so far found to describe haṭha yoga, the 11th-century Amṛtasiddhi, comes from a tantric Buddhist milieu. [4] The oldest texts to use the terminology of hatha are also Vajrayana Buddhist. [2] Hindu hatha yoga texts appear from the 11th century onwards.
Some of the early haṭha yoga texts (11th-13th c.) describe methods to raise and conserve bindu (vital force, that is, semen, and in women rajas – menstrual fluid) which was seen as the physical essence of life that was constantly dripping down from the head and being lost. [1] The two early Haṭha yoga techniques to achieve this sought to either physically reverse this process (by inverted postures like viparītakaraṇī) to trap the bindu using gravity, or mudras (yogic seals) [a] to make breath flow into the centre channel and force bindu upwards through the central channel. [1]
Almost all hathayogic texts belong to the Nath siddhas, and the important early ones (12th-13th c.) are credited to Matsyendranath's disciple, Gorakhnath or Gorakshanath (11th c.). [3] Early Nāth works teach a yoga based on raising kuṇḍalinī through energy channels and chakras, called Layayoga ("the yoga of dissolution"). However, other early Nāth texts like the Vivekamārtaṇḍa can be seen as co-opting the hatha yoga mudrās. [6] Later Nāth as well as Śākta texts adopt the practices of haṭha yoga mudras into a Saiva system, melding it with Layayoga methods, without mentioning bindu. [6] These later texts promote a universalist yoga, available to all, "without the need for priestly intermediaries, ritual paraphernalia or sectarian initiations." [6]
In the 20th century, a development of haṭha yoga, focusing particularly on asanas (the physical postures), became popular throughout the world as a form of physical exercise. This modern form of yoga is now widely known simply as "yoga".
References
Birch 2011
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Mallinson 2016 Amrtasiddhi
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Mallinson 2016
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:51, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
tags or {{efn}}
templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}}
template or {{notelist}}
template (see the
help page).
![]() | Hatha yoga has been listed as one of the
Philosophy and religion good articles under the
good article criteria. If you can improve it further,
please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
reassess it. Review: March 14, 2021. ( Reviewed version). |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hatha yoga article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 30 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
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|
@ Ms Sarah Welch: The info you added is already present Here. Also Kundalini is a late addition. VictoriaGrayson Talk 15:11, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Iṣṭa Devatā: Mallinson's comments on White are notable. Which Sanderson source on Hatha yoga are you referring to? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:43, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
It seems like a blatant error on Mallinson's part to claim that hatha originally was the semen preservation techniques of Vaishnav renunciants when he also claims hatha was a movement to bring yoga to householders...clearly householder hatha yoga could not coexist with the absolute sexual continence taught in the early texts (such as the mudra version of hatha in the Dattatreya Yoga Śastra). This is why some consider Śiva Samhita the first householder hatha yoga text: it encourages sexual union as opposed to using an internal feminine drop or obtaining uterine blood "by cunning"– instead one can release and then reabsorb mixed sexual essences through the vajroli mudra.
But it is also obvious that the retention model was a reaction to proto-tantric sexual rituals that go back at least to the Vratyas, Skull-bearers and other antinomian groups that have been using sexual magic since the time of the Vedas and were foundational to tantra. These same practices were central to the Tantric Buddhist sources that include our oldest descriptions of hatha, and according to Tibetan tradition, was reformed and internalized in Tibet.
It seems like an arbitrary choice on Mallinson's part to say that hatha refers to this Vaishnav practice first, regardless of how Mughal artists painted yogis or how many Vaiśnav texts are extant in sanskrit. Remember how the majority of early Indian Buddhist texts are lost to history and that Vaiśnavism has been dominant over Śaivism for royal patronage for most of the period in question...of course Vaiśnavs have more surviving texts. Mallinson himself says that scribes were prone to add new lineages at the beginning of old texts, and Dominick Wujastyk wrote a great article on how quickly the old texts deteriorate and disappear if not actively preserved and copied.
Any scholar of Tamil or Tibetan will also tell you that Mallinson is ignoring all the non-sanskrit sources on hatha yoga because he is a Sanskrit philologist. Mallinson also ignores all the aspects of Kundalini within hatha yoga that notably entered through the western stream of tantra (see Dory Heilijgers Seelen and Mark Dyczkowski for more about that)...the Kubjika cult is still the oldest source for most of what we consider hatha, including the image of the coiled snake and the classical cakra system used in most of these sanskrit hatha manuals. Even the Pañcaratra's Bhāgavatam Purāṇa seems to imitate these cakras and concepts in its 'virat rupa' section (although exact sections of Purāṇas are difficult to date because they are compendiums). The oldest usages of the word hatha (according to Mallinson and Jason Birch) come from tantric Buddhist sources...sources that overlapped considerably with Kaulism (a term used in both Buddhist and Hindu traditions).
So the word hatha does not seem to come from Vaisnav texts, but Buddhist texts. The concept of mudras seems to come from śaiva tantra. The concept of sexual union as ritual also predates Mallinson's sources. So by what makeshift definition of hatha can he really assign it to Vaiśnavism? Really the logic by which Mallinson claims Vaiśnavs started hatha yoga is mostly the opinions you would expect of a Vaiśnav scholar who only looks at Sanskrit texts. The Hathayogapradipika cites a lineage of Nathas (who are saints to both Śaiva and Buddhist siddha traditions, not Vaiśnavism) in its opening lines. The Śiva Samhita is also part of the Śri Vidya tradition (the southern stream of Śaiva tantra, related to Kaulism). I think we need a broader basis in this article and less emphasis on what we can mostly call the thoughts of a singlular modern scholar that have not yet stood the test of time or scholastic critique. Right now this article is almost a love letter to Jim...even the sections that were not just borrowed from his encyclopedia entry. Iṣṭa Devatā ( talk) 20:44, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Hatha yoga. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:05, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Chiswick Chap: Re your message, I merely moved the two images closer to the appropriate section where Joga Pradīpikā is mentioned. The collage used to be the lead image in the older version. It was removed in favor of an image from the Joga Pradīpikā. That felt like an overemphasis of the Joga Pradīpikā. Per our MOS:IMAGES, the collage looks like a better image because it is clearer and more focused on the asana, sans all the dark scenery. Further, by placing the Joga Pradīpikā images closer to where it is mentioned, it aids understanding it in the appropriate context. I am open to any other image collage of asanas that is accurate and meaningfully improves the article from the reader's perspective. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:22, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
According to the
GA-review, A strong lede, most certainly lets the reader know what's coming.
I have to disagree; I had to scroll through the article to "Goals" to find out what Hatha yoga is about. In contrast, this text
In India, haṭha yoga is associated in popular tradition with the Yogis of the Natha Sampradaya through its traditional founder Matsyendranath, who is celebrated as a saint in both Hindu and Buddhist tantric and haṭha yoga schools. Almost all hathayogic texts belong to the Nath siddhas, and the important ones are credited to Matsyendranath's disciple, Gorakhnath or Gorakshanath.[4] According to the Dattatreya Yoga Śastra, there are two forms of haṭha yoga: one practiced by Yajñavalkya consisting of the eight limbs of yoga, and another practiced by Kapila consisting of eight mudras.
is WP:UNDUE; ot contains more information than is contained in the article itself. I'm going to rewrite part of the lead, therefor. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:18, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Chiswick Chap: I'm done; up to you for the fine-tuning. For convenience, I turned
Haṭha yoga is a branch of yoga. The Sanskrit word हठ haṭha literally means "force" and thus alludes to a system of physical techniques. [1] [2]
In India, haṭha yoga is associated in popular tradition with the Yogis of the Natha Sampradaya through its traditional founder Matsyendranath, who is celebrated as a saint in both Hindu and Buddhist tantric and haṭha yoga schools. Almost all hathayogic texts belong to the Nath siddhas, and the important ones are credited to Matsyendranath's disciple, Gorakhnath or Gorakshanath. [3] According to the Dattatreya Yoga Śastra, there are two forms of haṭha yoga: one practiced by Yajñavalkya consisting of the eight limbs of yoga, and another practiced by Kapila consisting of eight mudras.
The oldest dated text so far found to describe haṭha yoga, the 11th-century Amṛtasiddhi, comes from a tantric Buddhist milieu. [4] The oldest texts to use the terminology of hatha are also Vajrayana Buddhist. [2] Later haṭha yoga texts adopt the practices of haṭha yoga mudras into a Saiva system, melding it with Layayoga methods which focus on the raising of kuṇḍalinī through energy channels and chakras.
In the 20th century, a development of haṭha yoga, focusing particularly on asanas (the physical postures), became popular throughout the world as a form of physical exercise. This modern form of yoga is now widely known simply as "yoga".
into
Haṭha yoga is a branch of yoga which uses physical techniques to preserve and channel the vital force or energy. The Sanskrit word हठ haṭha literally means "force" and thus alludes to a system of physical techniques. [1] [2] Some haṭha yoga style techniques can be traced back at least to the 1st-century CE, in texts such as the Sanskrit epics (Hinduism) and the Pali canon (Buddhism). [5] The oldest dated text so far found to describe haṭha yoga, the 11th-century Amṛtasiddhi, comes from a tantric Buddhist milieu. [4] The oldest texts to use the terminology of hatha are also Vajrayana Buddhist. [2] Hindu hatha yoga texts appear from the 11th century onwards.
Some of the early haṭha yoga texts (11th-13th c.) describe methods to raise and conserve bindu (vital force, that is, semen, and in women rajas – menstrual fluid) which was seen as the physical essence of life that was constantly dripping down from the head and being lost. [1] The two early Haṭha yoga techniques to achieve this sought to either physically reverse this process (by inverted postures like viparītakaraṇī) to trap the bindu using gravity, or mudras (yogic seals) [a] to make breath flow into the centre channel and force bindu upwards through the central channel. [1]
Almost all hathayogic texts belong to the Nath siddhas, and the important early ones (12th-13th c.) are credited to Matsyendranath's disciple, Gorakhnath or Gorakshanath (11th c.). [3] Early Nāth works teach a yoga based on raising kuṇḍalinī through energy channels and chakras, called Layayoga ("the yoga of dissolution"). However, other early Nāth texts like the Vivekamārtaṇḍa can be seen as co-opting the hatha yoga mudrās. [6] Later Nāth as well as Śākta texts adopt the practices of haṭha yoga mudras into a Saiva system, melding it with Layayoga methods, without mentioning bindu. [6] These later texts promote a universalist yoga, available to all, "without the need for priestly intermediaries, ritual paraphernalia or sectarian initiations." [6]
In the 20th century, a development of haṭha yoga, focusing particularly on asanas (the physical postures), became popular throughout the world as a form of physical exercise. This modern form of yoga is now widely known simply as "yoga".
References
Birch 2011
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Mallinson 2016 Amrtasiddhi
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Mallinson 2016
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:51, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
tags or {{efn}}
templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}}
template or {{notelist}}
template (see the
help page).