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I just changed Shogun Hideyoshi to Taiko Hideyoshi. Toyotomi Hideyoshi was not Shogun because he was of peasant birth. Instead, the Emperor appointed him Kwampaku, which is the highest a peasant could go. To become Shogun, descendance from the four semi-regal Shogunal families was required.
After Toyotomi Hideyoshi abdicated his seat of Kwampaku in favor of his son, Hideyori, he recieved the title of Taiko. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.202.213.102 ( talk • contribs).
Was this the basis for "The Samurai" by Endo Shusaku? This seems pretty much the same as the plot of that book, without all the Christian stuff. Adam Bishop 21:25, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
-I just noticed that it says on the wikipedia front page that Hasekura Tsunenaga was part of the first japanese embassy to Europe. This is definitely not true (it's not mentined in the article, however). I know there was four japanece "princes" who went to europe, met the king of Spain and the pope already in 1584. The princes names were Mâncio Ito, M. Chijawa Seiyemon, J. Nakaura and M. Hara. I remember these from Linschoten's Itinerario, and I have seen their mention in a japanese biographical encyclopedia. Regards, S. W. Aarsbog SWA 16:20, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I changed the account of his death. There are too many varying reports on Hasekura's last years to favor one over the others. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.223.78.31 ( talk • contribs).
I would love to write an article on Hasekura for the Latin wikipedia. But to do that, I could really use some sources. Could anyone tell me:
Thanks! -- Iustinus 17:38, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Now that this page has made translation of the week, it would be the perfect time to write a Latin version of this article. Indeed, user:Muke has already started one at la:Faxecura Rocuyemon. But to do the subject justice it would really be a good idea to read up on contemporary sources which were written in Latin. So far the only one I can find online is Luis Sotelo's de ecclesiae Iaponicae statu relatio (see especially the first page.)
Can anyone help me find more sources? PHG, has anything changed regarding the questions I asked above?
Thanks, Iustinus 19:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, here are the two references to Hasekura I was immediately able to find in Sotelo's book. The first one is on the first page, and the second one is listed in the index, so these were quite easy to find. As I don't currently have time to read the whole book through, it may be a while before I can add more. Note that when writing in Latin the usual style is to use very long complicated sentences, which don't always translate clearly. So I apologize if anything is confusing: I tried my best to keep it clear, but fear I did not always succeed.
I must confess that I am not entirely certain about the sentence on the "special inheritance", as the Latin is quite knotty. That is the best grammatical solution I was able to come up with in which the translation makes sense ;)
So what do you think of these quotes? Not exactly as interesting as I had hoped, myself, but still possibly relevant. -- Iustinus 19:26, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
How do you think, "Spanish Approaches" are not directly relevant to his own life. I assume it is better to separate this section and extend it including other relationship between Spain and Japan during this period. -- Aphaea * 09:50, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I am from the French Wikipédia project, and I am traducing this article in French language. I suppose that this paragraph
"They never touch food with their fingers, but instead use two small sticks that they hold with three fingers". "They blow their noses in soft silky papers the size of a hand, which they never use twice, so that they throw them on the ground after usage, and they were delighted to see our people around them precipitate themselves to pick them up". "Their swords cut so well that they can cut a soft paper just by putting it on the edge and by blowing on it." ("Relations of Mme de St Troppez", October 1615, Bibliotheque Inguimbertine, Carpentras).
was originally written in French, and as a double translation French>English>French is not a good idea, I wonder if someone has the orginal text somewhere? Thanks, Ash_Crow 13:09, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
PHG: I've just undone a couple of your changes. Since you generally do such a good job of maintaining this page, I figure any disagreement I have with you needs to be explained ;)
If you feel I have erred in correcting you, please explain here. -- Iustinus 16:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I've finally put in a translation of the letter of Date Masamune to the Pope, from Gonoi. The title is not included in the translation though. Here is the photograph. Can you make it out? Here is where I am at this point:
"MAGNI ET UNIVERSALIS SSQ3 (??)
Totus Orbis Domini Patris Pape Paulis podes cum profunda sumnuss (?) a reucrentia(?)
osculando y Date Masamune in Imperio Japonico Rex Voxy supliciter dicimus"
I just made some minor corrections to the English of the article, in a number of places. I just wanted to point out a few things:
On a totally different note, I see that in the Spanish source, Masamune's name is spelled Joate. Given that other period sources spell his name Idate, is it possible that that o is actually a d? The J could also actually be an I, but that isn't necessary: since J and I are essentially still stylistic varients of the same letter in this period, Jdate (not to be confused with JDate ;) ) is a definite possibility. -- Iustinus 15:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
PHG, you wrote:
Do you have a reference for this date? Because of course the certificate itself gives a date of XII Kal. Dec., which is November 20th (There is the possibility that I'm reading that X wrong, but the II looks clear, and VII would be November 25.) Now it is of course entirely credible that the resolution was passed, or the certificate was drawn up on the 20th, but it wasn't presented on the 23rd, but I wanted to make sure this wasn't a simple mistake (like my writing 1613 on the transcription ;) )
By the way, the certificate sure looks like an inscription, and it seems to refer to one in the text. Is it possible the certificate was an official copy (or perhaps an official draft) of a public inscription? -- Iustinus 00:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
This ought to be a featured article candidate, it's very good! 195.137.85.17 00:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
What the heck... what's the point of removing the year links? -- Iustinus 21:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree. This is less a biographical sketch and more a investigation into the Japanese embassy to Spain and the fallout. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.15.228.196 ( talk • contribs).
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Hasekura Tsunenaga/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Not well know in Mexico. Bewareofdog ( talk) 04:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC) |
Last edited at 04:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 14:55, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I just changed Shogun Hideyoshi to Taiko Hideyoshi. Toyotomi Hideyoshi was not Shogun because he was of peasant birth. Instead, the Emperor appointed him Kwampaku, which is the highest a peasant could go. To become Shogun, descendance from the four semi-regal Shogunal families was required.
After Toyotomi Hideyoshi abdicated his seat of Kwampaku in favor of his son, Hideyori, he recieved the title of Taiko. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.202.213.102 ( talk • contribs).
Was this the basis for "The Samurai" by Endo Shusaku? This seems pretty much the same as the plot of that book, without all the Christian stuff. Adam Bishop 21:25, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
-I just noticed that it says on the wikipedia front page that Hasekura Tsunenaga was part of the first japanese embassy to Europe. This is definitely not true (it's not mentined in the article, however). I know there was four japanece "princes" who went to europe, met the king of Spain and the pope already in 1584. The princes names were Mâncio Ito, M. Chijawa Seiyemon, J. Nakaura and M. Hara. I remember these from Linschoten's Itinerario, and I have seen their mention in a japanese biographical encyclopedia. Regards, S. W. Aarsbog SWA 16:20, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I changed the account of his death. There are too many varying reports on Hasekura's last years to favor one over the others. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.223.78.31 ( talk • contribs).
I would love to write an article on Hasekura for the Latin wikipedia. But to do that, I could really use some sources. Could anyone tell me:
Thanks! -- Iustinus 17:38, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Now that this page has made translation of the week, it would be the perfect time to write a Latin version of this article. Indeed, user:Muke has already started one at la:Faxecura Rocuyemon. But to do the subject justice it would really be a good idea to read up on contemporary sources which were written in Latin. So far the only one I can find online is Luis Sotelo's de ecclesiae Iaponicae statu relatio (see especially the first page.)
Can anyone help me find more sources? PHG, has anything changed regarding the questions I asked above?
Thanks, Iustinus 19:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, here are the two references to Hasekura I was immediately able to find in Sotelo's book. The first one is on the first page, and the second one is listed in the index, so these were quite easy to find. As I don't currently have time to read the whole book through, it may be a while before I can add more. Note that when writing in Latin the usual style is to use very long complicated sentences, which don't always translate clearly. So I apologize if anything is confusing: I tried my best to keep it clear, but fear I did not always succeed.
I must confess that I am not entirely certain about the sentence on the "special inheritance", as the Latin is quite knotty. That is the best grammatical solution I was able to come up with in which the translation makes sense ;)
So what do you think of these quotes? Not exactly as interesting as I had hoped, myself, but still possibly relevant. -- Iustinus 19:26, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
How do you think, "Spanish Approaches" are not directly relevant to his own life. I assume it is better to separate this section and extend it including other relationship between Spain and Japan during this period. -- Aphaea * 09:50, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I am from the French Wikipédia project, and I am traducing this article in French language. I suppose that this paragraph
"They never touch food with their fingers, but instead use two small sticks that they hold with three fingers". "They blow their noses in soft silky papers the size of a hand, which they never use twice, so that they throw them on the ground after usage, and they were delighted to see our people around them precipitate themselves to pick them up". "Their swords cut so well that they can cut a soft paper just by putting it on the edge and by blowing on it." ("Relations of Mme de St Troppez", October 1615, Bibliotheque Inguimbertine, Carpentras).
was originally written in French, and as a double translation French>English>French is not a good idea, I wonder if someone has the orginal text somewhere? Thanks, Ash_Crow 13:09, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
PHG: I've just undone a couple of your changes. Since you generally do such a good job of maintaining this page, I figure any disagreement I have with you needs to be explained ;)
If you feel I have erred in correcting you, please explain here. -- Iustinus 16:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I've finally put in a translation of the letter of Date Masamune to the Pope, from Gonoi. The title is not included in the translation though. Here is the photograph. Can you make it out? Here is where I am at this point:
"MAGNI ET UNIVERSALIS SSQ3 (??)
Totus Orbis Domini Patris Pape Paulis podes cum profunda sumnuss (?) a reucrentia(?)
osculando y Date Masamune in Imperio Japonico Rex Voxy supliciter dicimus"
I just made some minor corrections to the English of the article, in a number of places. I just wanted to point out a few things:
On a totally different note, I see that in the Spanish source, Masamune's name is spelled Joate. Given that other period sources spell his name Idate, is it possible that that o is actually a d? The J could also actually be an I, but that isn't necessary: since J and I are essentially still stylistic varients of the same letter in this period, Jdate (not to be confused with JDate ;) ) is a definite possibility. -- Iustinus 15:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
PHG, you wrote:
Do you have a reference for this date? Because of course the certificate itself gives a date of XII Kal. Dec., which is November 20th (There is the possibility that I'm reading that X wrong, but the II looks clear, and VII would be November 25.) Now it is of course entirely credible that the resolution was passed, or the certificate was drawn up on the 20th, but it wasn't presented on the 23rd, but I wanted to make sure this wasn't a simple mistake (like my writing 1613 on the transcription ;) )
By the way, the certificate sure looks like an inscription, and it seems to refer to one in the text. Is it possible the certificate was an official copy (or perhaps an official draft) of a public inscription? -- Iustinus 00:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
This ought to be a featured article candidate, it's very good! 195.137.85.17 00:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
What the heck... what's the point of removing the year links? -- Iustinus 21:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree. This is less a biographical sketch and more a investigation into the Japanese embassy to Spain and the fallout. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.15.228.196 ( talk • contribs).
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Hasekura Tsunenaga/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Not well know in Mexico. Bewareofdog ( talk) 04:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC) |
Last edited at 04:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 14:55, 1 May 2016 (UTC)