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An editor has just added a section and a categorization purporting that Milk was anti-religion [1] based on a single source - a book's citing Milk's saying an oft-repeated complaint that more people died in the name of religion than for any other cause. I've got three concerns: (1) a single source does not establish that Milk is considered anti-religious, particularly not a book whose very premise is criticizing (some would say bashing) liberalism in California. Is there more support out there? Otherwise this is just one seemingly biased author's opinion, and fails as a matter of WP:WEIGHT. (2) Even if the quote is correctly reported, a single statement at a rally does not establish Milk's actual influences and beliefs. We don't have the context but Milk seems to be responding to the bigotry of the times, which gays would find particularly hurtful, that expressing their sexual preference was "perverted". That criticism was coming to a large degree from self-styled religious authorities who were condemning gays as sinners, perverted, doomed to hell, etc. Milk's responding in this way, frankly, is reasonable and defensive and does not without more suggest that he went out of his way to disparage or combat religious faith. (3) Finally, even if all this is true and Milk was anti-religious, how much weight does that bear in a bio? He's known for many other things. Without more support that it made a difference and people got his message, it's undue weight to highlight this as an entire section and perhaps to mention it at all. I hesitate to revert because I just don't know. Maybe Milk was a notable opponent of religion. But if so we need better context and sourcing. Wikidemo ( talk) 00:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Too many people have died in the name of Christ - Crosby, Stills & Nash (and Young)
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. - Jonathan Swift
Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. - George Washington
There are things about organized religion which I resent. Christ is revered as the Prince of Peace, but more blood has been shed in His name than any other figure in history. - Frank Sinatra
Listen I am hardly the founding member of the Harvey Milk fan club, but I think it comes down to this: does anyone notable think that Harvey Milk was Anti-religion? So far, all I see are a bunch of primary sources, and one secondard source which do not a section make. CENSEI ( talk) 02:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Let me state I have little doubt that Milk, like most politicians has said many things is thier speaches that will be cherry-picked to come back and haunt them but this does not make them specifically anti-religious or anything else. We need to keep material in context and keep with policies already in place of verifiability and relaible sourcing as well as neutral point of view. Banjeboi 00:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
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I was shocked to see not a single mention here in this Harvey Milk article on something even more controversial for Milk than his support for homosexual rights. The Jonestown tragedy absoluted dominated national attention at the time of Milk's death, and it had essentially taken over everything occuring in the Bay Area at the time. Milk was one of Jones' most ardent political supporters against investigation into Jonestown in 1978. Mosedschurte ( talk) 08:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
The only even remotely non-"encylcopedic" part I could find (and I don't even agree about this) was a 3-line quote of support for the Temple given by Milk after a visit. I just cut it out with a short summary sentence. Now, the remainder is presented entirely NPOV, includes only a tiny number of Milk's interactions with/support for the Temple and is correctly proportioned in an article of this size. It even includes a mention that there is no connection between White and the PT (despite only a 9 day difference in the Ryan and Milk assassinations and rumors of PT U.S. hit squads), which I don't think is necessary, but it makes sure that this issue is clear. In addition, despite the magnitude of the event and Milk's rare vehement support of the Temple against the Concerned Relatives pressing for an investigation, even after Jones & the Temple fled to Guyana, there is also no mention of it all in his summary information. Mosedschurte ( talk) 05:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Trimmed and removed the following
While this all may true it's hardly that interesting and seems to only be useful in characterizing Milk in some way as a bad judge of character. I haven't fully vetted the sources but they seem to be used solely to discredit Milk, which isn't the purpose of an encyclopedia. None of the facts, he attended rallies, wrote letter of support, etc would seem out of place for any politician and seem to suggest he was showing support for someone he thought was working on humanitarian efforts and who supported LGBT people. This material might be appropriate in some other article along with all the other policians who also attended those rallies and wrote letters of support etc. Banje boi 22:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Compromise Change/Language Now InI've now clarified, using the already cited Milk letter, that he supported the Temple's effective remedies to social problems (in truth, they actually had a lot of soup kitchens, provided free legal advice, etc., but I didn't go into it), that Jones himself had supported politicians under attack for LGBT issues and that Milk was not a Temple member. These were obviously sort of forced pro-Milk points, but I can see the concern that, without stating his likely intentions, someone might have incorrectly jumped to the conclusion that Milk supported the end actions of the Temple in November 1978 (and there's obviously zero evidence of anything remotely like that). Its about the same length as before, and still only a very small (6%) part of the Milk article. Not that this is releavant but, Benjiboi, I noticed your talk page and believe me, I'm really not trying some underhanded attack against Milk related to his LGBT rights advocacy. Jonestown DOMINATED virtually every part of the the Bay Area news from late 1978 to 1979 in a way that's difficult to understand now (9-11-esque) and Milk ended up right smack dab in the middle of it before his death, though I'm sure the many novels focusing on his LGBT issues likely don't dwell on this. Milk's support, especially after the Temple had even fled to Guyana, does merit mention. Mosedschurte ( talk) 23:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Outdent. OK, I've looked through several sources and Jones is only mentioned in passing in most of it. That Milk spoke at the Temple (or anywhere else), that he got support from them (like a lot of politicians including Milk's opponents in the same races) and that he wrote letters in support of Jones all seems somewhat unremarkable. I did run across this gem from Milk speaking to a campaign staffer regarding his involvement with the Temple and Jones:
I hope these changes are OK with you and I encourage you to consider adding the material to the Jim Jones and Peoples Temple articles as appropriate. There may even be a San Francisco politics article that the Jim Jones material would be very appropriate for as he was distinctly a part of the scene and had an impact. Banje boi 22:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
An editor has just added a section and a categorization purporting that Milk was anti-religion [1] based on a single source - a book's citing Milk's saying an oft-repeated complaint that more people died in the name of religion than for any other cause. I've got three concerns: (1) a single source does not establish that Milk is considered anti-religious, particularly not a book whose very premise is criticizing (some would say bashing) liberalism in California. Is there more support out there? Otherwise this is just one seemingly biased author's opinion, and fails as a matter of WP:WEIGHT. (2) Even if the quote is correctly reported, a single statement at a rally does not establish Milk's actual influences and beliefs. We don't have the context but Milk seems to be responding to the bigotry of the times, which gays would find particularly hurtful, that expressing their sexual preference was "perverted". That criticism was coming to a large degree from self-styled religious authorities who were condemning gays as sinners, perverted, doomed to hell, etc. Milk's responding in this way, frankly, is reasonable and defensive and does not without more suggest that he went out of his way to disparage or combat religious faith. (3) Finally, even if all this is true and Milk was anti-religious, how much weight does that bear in a bio? He's known for many other things. Without more support that it made a difference and people got his message, it's undue weight to highlight this as an entire section and perhaps to mention it at all. I hesitate to revert because I just don't know. Maybe Milk was a notable opponent of religion. But if so we need better context and sourcing. Wikidemo ( talk) 00:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Too many people have died in the name of Christ - Crosby, Stills & Nash (and Young)
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. - Jonathan Swift
Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. - George Washington
There are things about organized religion which I resent. Christ is revered as the Prince of Peace, but more blood has been shed in His name than any other figure in history. - Frank Sinatra
Listen I am hardly the founding member of the Harvey Milk fan club, but I think it comes down to this: does anyone notable think that Harvey Milk was Anti-religion? So far, all I see are a bunch of primary sources, and one secondard source which do not a section make. CENSEI ( talk) 02:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Let me state I have little doubt that Milk, like most politicians has said many things is thier speaches that will be cherry-picked to come back and haunt them but this does not make them specifically anti-religious or anything else. We need to keep material in context and keep with policies already in place of verifiability and relaible sourcing as well as neutral point of view. Banjeboi 00:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
This discussion has been collapsed. | ||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
I was shocked to see not a single mention here in this Harvey Milk article on something even more controversial for Milk than his support for homosexual rights. The Jonestown tragedy absoluted dominated national attention at the time of Milk's death, and it had essentially taken over everything occuring in the Bay Area at the time. Milk was one of Jones' most ardent political supporters against investigation into Jonestown in 1978. Mosedschurte ( talk) 08:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
The only even remotely non-"encylcopedic" part I could find (and I don't even agree about this) was a 3-line quote of support for the Temple given by Milk after a visit. I just cut it out with a short summary sentence. Now, the remainder is presented entirely NPOV, includes only a tiny number of Milk's interactions with/support for the Temple and is correctly proportioned in an article of this size. It even includes a mention that there is no connection between White and the PT (despite only a 9 day difference in the Ryan and Milk assassinations and rumors of PT U.S. hit squads), which I don't think is necessary, but it makes sure that this issue is clear. In addition, despite the magnitude of the event and Milk's rare vehement support of the Temple against the Concerned Relatives pressing for an investigation, even after Jones & the Temple fled to Guyana, there is also no mention of it all in his summary information. Mosedschurte ( talk) 05:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Trimmed and removed the following
While this all may true it's hardly that interesting and seems to only be useful in characterizing Milk in some way as a bad judge of character. I haven't fully vetted the sources but they seem to be used solely to discredit Milk, which isn't the purpose of an encyclopedia. None of the facts, he attended rallies, wrote letter of support, etc would seem out of place for any politician and seem to suggest he was showing support for someone he thought was working on humanitarian efforts and who supported LGBT people. This material might be appropriate in some other article along with all the other policians who also attended those rallies and wrote letters of support etc. Banje boi 22:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Compromise Change/Language Now InI've now clarified, using the already cited Milk letter, that he supported the Temple's effective remedies to social problems (in truth, they actually had a lot of soup kitchens, provided free legal advice, etc., but I didn't go into it), that Jones himself had supported politicians under attack for LGBT issues and that Milk was not a Temple member. These were obviously sort of forced pro-Milk points, but I can see the concern that, without stating his likely intentions, someone might have incorrectly jumped to the conclusion that Milk supported the end actions of the Temple in November 1978 (and there's obviously zero evidence of anything remotely like that). Its about the same length as before, and still only a very small (6%) part of the Milk article. Not that this is releavant but, Benjiboi, I noticed your talk page and believe me, I'm really not trying some underhanded attack against Milk related to his LGBT rights advocacy. Jonestown DOMINATED virtually every part of the the Bay Area news from late 1978 to 1979 in a way that's difficult to understand now (9-11-esque) and Milk ended up right smack dab in the middle of it before his death, though I'm sure the many novels focusing on his LGBT issues likely don't dwell on this. Milk's support, especially after the Temple had even fled to Guyana, does merit mention. Mosedschurte ( talk) 23:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Outdent. OK, I've looked through several sources and Jones is only mentioned in passing in most of it. That Milk spoke at the Temple (or anywhere else), that he got support from them (like a lot of politicians including Milk's opponents in the same races) and that he wrote letters in support of Jones all seems somewhat unremarkable. I did run across this gem from Milk speaking to a campaign staffer regarding his involvement with the Temple and Jones:
I hope these changes are OK with you and I encourage you to consider adding the material to the Jim Jones and Peoples Temple articles as appropriate. There may even be a San Francisco politics article that the Jim Jones material would be very appropriate for as he was distinctly a part of the scene and had an impact. Banje boi 22:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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