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Can anyone tell what sort of harp this is? from a mural in Ancient Crete [2700 to 1450 BC] [1] [2] 58.178.10.144 ( talk) 23:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I edited the section on folk and lever harps to clarify a few things. The folk/lever harp, while used quite a lot for folk and traditional music, is also a harp played by people who may have no or little interest in folk music. Musicians who cannot afford a pedal harp, those who prefer the smaller sizes and different timbres, and so on. (Such as myself. I do actually happen to know a fair amount about Celtic history and music, I simply prefer to play classical music on my Celtic-butt lever harp. Musicology studied at university, great personal interest, etc etc.) It is wise to acknowledge in a public article discussing modern harping that the small harp is not "just" for folk/traditional/Celtic music. Many people do not realise that they don't have to have a pedal harp to play non-folk music, and often get the impression that the small harp is not a "real" harp.
The language has been tidied up also. A few shorter paragraphs make for clearer reading, especially on this here internet. -- Cantrixargenta
Edited electric harp references and added links to the electric harp article stub (which I started). Precedence is for having electric harp as a separate article as per electric violin, electric guitar, etc. Also edited/clarified some bits about lever harps and added internal links for terms such as sharp and flat. -- Cantrixargenta
Replaced the BMP image with a JPEG. The original BMP is here: media:new harp-thumbnail.bmp
Changed the caption on the Webster's dictionary harp illustration. That's definitely a medieval (Romanesque style, too) harp on the left, not what we harpers/harpists today would generally call a folk harp. The pedal harp in the pic isn't particularly modern one either, nor is it a good illustration, honestly. I'll see if I can find a better one. -- Cantrixargenta
I've changed a long-standing reference to it as a "string-percussion instrument" to just "string instrument". I can imagine a piano or a hammered dulcimer, for example, being described as a "string-percussion" instrument (though I don't think I've ever seen it done), because their strings are hammered. But with the harp, they're just plucked, so it doesn't seem to make much sense. -- Camembert
I've always thought of a harp as a string-percussion instrument just because it is plucked. It is a stringed instrument, but it's not in the "string" family (with violins and basses and things). To me, plucking is a percussive movement: pulling the string and releasing it to create a sound. I've heard pianos described as "string-percussion", too, since they have strings and are hammered (similar to plucking). Other than "string-percussion", I don't know how to classify the harp/piano family, and that term doesn't seem to be widely spread. -- Dreamyshade
You're right that trying to classify instruments is a troublesome thing - it has been the central subject of a number of books. " percussion instruments", however, are usually defined as "something which makes noise by being struck", and plucked instruments are not usually put in that class. "String instrument" is an awkward term, because classical musicians sometimes use it to mean only orchestral strings (violin, viola, cello, double bass), but it's also used to mean any instrument which makes sound through vibrating strings, so it's the term we should use here, I think. -- Camembert
I wonder if we should just call the harp a chordophone. It's stringed and somewhat percussive, but neither orchestra strings nor percussion. When it has to be classified (in instrument books and things), I've seen it as "strings", but never "percussion". If we called it a chordophone, we could put "( string instrument)" in there next to it. This way, I think it would clarify that the harp isn't with the "orchestral strings", but that it's a stringed instrument. -- Dreamyshade
Yes, I think that's a good idea. I'll make the change. -- Camembert
Many harp makers do electric harps. Did Lyon and Healy develop the first one? If so we should probably note that. If not we really should mention the other folks. -- EEMalinoski
Camembert: Perhaps a look at a symphony orchestra is in order. The harp is a member of the percussion family according to their classifications. EEMalinoski: I'm not sure about a Lyon and Healy electric harp, but Camac in France has been making them since at least 1997 if not earlier. Do you have a date for a Lyon and Healy electric harp? Also, Rather than a single line, I've written up a paragraph for the Wire Strung Harp. I am a wire strung harper, myself. -- brichard
In a symphony orchestra, the harp is all by itself. Dreamyshade 05:14, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
As the old song says, "*STRIKE* the harp in tones of joy". It never was "plucked". Plucking a harp in fact is bad for your fingers, you still want to strike it, even if you call it plucking. Definitely a "string-percussion" instrument before it got degraded to a glissando machine in the modern orchestra. (actually, I guess "glissando machine" would also count as "percussion".) In the orchestra it is most often grouped with percussion and other odd instruments such as the Celesta. (my 2 cents.) Asni (of www.asni.net) (Btw "chordophone" is just Greek for "String Instrument". :-) ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.246.16.235 ( talk) 12:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm reverting the article back to my 16 Dec revision because Purple Arrow's 17 Dec revert doesn't make sense to me. An-gabhar, I moved the early-European information in the Origins section to the Political Symbol section. It was misleading - there isn't one "European" harp - and the information about Irish coinage belonged in the Political Symbol section. Dreamyshade 05:51, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The harp as we know it today most definitely has it's origins in ancient Ireland where there was a great tradition of harping well over 1000 years ago. We just cannot airbrush these origins away and refer to mere political symbols. An-gabhar
Harps date from 5000 years ago, though. The Irish/Celtic harps certainly originated in ancient Ireland, and that's probably where the European harp tradition started. How about a second Origins paragraph like:
The harp probably developed independently in many places. The European harp tradition seems to have originated in ancient Ireland over a thousand years ago.
Later, somebody could add information on the origins of harps in different places. Dreamyshade 22:06, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In this article, the celtic harp is strongly overrepresented. The harp definitely did not originate in Ireland (maybe the European harp did). There are pictures of harps from old Egypt. Harps are widespread in Africa (it is necessary to include more of that in the article). The title of Kubik, Gerhard Zum Verstehen afrikanischer Musik, Aufsätze, Reihe: Ethnologie: Forschung und Wissenschaft, Bd. 7, 2., aktualisierte und ergänzte Auflage, 2004, 448 S., ISBN 3-8258-7800-7 shows a picture with a harp player from the Tassili mountains in the Sahara. This picture has been dated to about 800 - 700 b.C. I don't know if the harp is of Asian or African origin, but it is definitely not a European invention. In Africa, one finds a possible line of development starting with hunting bows used as Musical bows and continuing with Musical bows with resonators (like the Berimbau of Brazil) to bow harps, so the harp might well be of African origin. It might also have been invented in Asia and spread into Africa via Egypt. Nannus 19:50, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know of the types of harps that have little or no metal (like copper) on them? I am allergic to Nickel or mixed metals with nickel on them and I wanted to learn how to play the Harp ( had to change my guitar strings because of this and as far as me tuning my own piano: out of the question.) Thanks!
sorry sorry sorry that ended up in the wrong section! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.246.16.235 ( talk) 12:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Krozo 18:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this article will clear up a few things about the Irish or Scottish harp origins, Its a historical fact that the Gaels came to Scotland from Ireland in the 4th centuary after the Romans left Britain and both Irish and Scottish cultures (pretty much the same culture if you ask me) have influenced each other, even today. But there were other celtic peopels in present day Scotland too, one of these being the Picts.
In Scotland, the images of triangular harps appeared first about the 9th century, on the east coast, in Pictish stone carvings. Later carvings are found further west, and show a gradual development toward the advanced form of the oldest surviving Gaelic harps, which date from the 15th century.
Pictish harp carved on sandstone cross at Dupplin Castle, Perthshire. Late 9th or early 10th century. After J. Romily Allen, Early Christian Monuments of Scotland, Edinburgh, 1903, fig. 334B
"In Ireland, however, images of David carved on the high crosses (10th century) sandstone cross at Durrow Abbey, Co. Offaly, Ireland) show quadrangular instruments, possibly lyres. The earliest Irish images of a triangular harp do not appear until later: in metal, on an 11th century reliquary , and in stone in the 12th century."
Therefore Ireland could not have invented the triangular celtic harp, because of its use of the lyer at this time and its spread through non-Gaelic culture of the Picts to the Scots.
The oldest term in Irish for the Harp is the "cruit", crom-chruit, the gaelic Irish called the Picts the Cruit or Chuid. This also may be a link to the origins of the harp.
Until you come up with (factual) archaeological proof, then stop second guessing. I have asked experts in both the national museums of Scotland and Irelands Trinity college, both say the same. The triangular harp common to both Scotland and Ireland originated with the Picts on present day Scottish east coast and spread west and eventually to Ireland.
You are right though harping has existed in Ireland for over a thousand of years, but the non-pedal, triangular style celtic harp of today originated in scotlands east coast, so we just cannot airbrush these origins away too.
Also read these articles on the web:
http://www.silcom.com/~vikman/isles/scriptorium/harps/harps.html
http://www.alisonvardy.com/harp-info/medieval-harp-history.htm
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce082202.html
and
http://www.clarsach.net/Bill_Taylor/traditional.htm
If you have anything to add feel free. - User:Celtic harper 16:30, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
A really bad emotional post. I'm English, and a harpist, so no ax to grind! That carving that is being referred to, well it cannot be Pictish inspired. If you look at the bottom of the carving you will see Irish knotwork, also it is a Christian carving, that means the Irish (known as the Scotti) must have converted those that made the carving. Anyway carvings really account for very little. There is much more evidence in Ireland of the harp, and this dates from 600 AD, I really can't put it here, too much space needed. Sea horn 20:26, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get into a debate on so called "Hiberno-Saxon" art, that requires a thesis all of it's own. It's a very convenient term for many purposes. As far as I can see, it is Irish knotwork, and it is a Christian carving. The Gaels were the Irish in the time-frame you mention. You are picking and choosing again, and presenting your own view as fact. Really we could fill up this page and many more with this discussion, and it wouldn't be very fair to the Harp page, or to the 'Harp, talk' page, so I rest my case so that others may contribute. Sea horn 18:31, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, I am not claiming that the first triangular harps were produced in Ireland, even the most enthusiastic Irish writers won't claim that, they are not as arrogant as that. That been said, the first historic evidence of the triangular harp comes from Babylonia, where one was found in circa 1920, and a very nice looking harp indeed. It dates from about 2500 BC. Other figures with triangular harps have be found in the Cycledes islands near Crete, these date from about 2500 BC. I have the photographs of these items, but I believe they are copyright, so I cannot post here. Sea horn 01:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The article says, David played a ne'vel (a type of string instrument) which was identified with a lyre. Is this a mistake? Since most scholars identified David as playing, the lyre-like Kinnor (Kin-nohr'). See: wiki: kinnor ( [3]) ([www.harrariharps.com/]) "In about half of the 42 occurrences of kin·nohr′ in the Bible, the translators of the Septuagint rendered it by the Greek ki·tha′ra." - Insight on the scriptures, volume two, harp.-- Anaccuratesource ( talk) 22:22, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Let's get something clear, the Dupplin cross is not the only Pictish representation of the clarsach. It is depicted on many Pictish stones, the dating of some perhaps very early. This clarsach was part of Pictish musical culture, and there is no reason to think they imported it from the Irish or Scottish Gaels, other than later affinity that the Irish have for this harp. The NPOV assessment is that the Picts had the clarsach, others had it too. Linking these by cause and effect is purely speculative, although it is interesting that the earliest Gaelic word for the harp is almost identical for their word for a Pict. Also, it should be made clear that the Picts were probably making use of the Gaelic language from an early date (the evidence that the Pictish kings spoke Pictish is nil BTW). The inscription on the Dupplin cross lists the name of a Pictish king (Causantín mac Fergusa) in Latin with Gaelic orthography; two languages were used in Pictland to write inscriptions, Latin and Old "Irish". So the potential for transmission was high. Irish sources also list something called the "Pictish metre", a poetic form of Gaelic originating in Pictland which was probably accompanied by a musical instrument. The form was notable, and it is possible that it came into Irelan with the clarsach ... but like I said, this is speculation. - Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) File:UW Logo-secondary.gif 16:22, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
To clear things up, pedal harps are not necessarily concert harps for example a Salvi Daphne, which is a student harp, so I tried to reword some things in that area. Also, where it mentions fingers used, I changed "last finger" to "pinky" because not everyone's last finger is a pinky. Last, I added Cindy Horstman and Ray Poole under the list of jazz harpists. They're both insanely talented and I'm way jealous! Elevenfans ( talk) 03:37, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, Sea Horn this page is for intelectual discussion only, and is not skewed for nationalistic reasons, ranting, or sword waving. It is you who has put this label on the posts, so I take great offence to this.
Im saying this as an Irishman born in Northern Ireland of Scottish and Irish (Donegal) extraction and I’m very proud of both sides of my heritage (which is both sides of the devide). So with that in mind please get your facts right before you point the finger of malcontent at me. My post was emotional because someone (perhapse you?) delieted my findings on the talk harp page, not once but six+ times. So much I complained to the wikipedia main page and posted my findings on the talk harp page to at least discuss them.
Secondly, I approve of credible empiricle data, facts speak louder than conjecture and second guessing, therefore I will answer your post, with facts in mind, and not with anyother agenda, and will comment if certain facts are misinterperated. I have found from credible sources backed up with pictorial data.
The point we’re getting at is that not all celtic culture should have exclusively come from Ireland. That type of thinking is demeaning to the modern welsh, the decedents of the Picts on the east coast of Scotland, and the ancient (Brythons and Picts, who have no voice to defend themselves). My bias is purly in favour of the Picts and not the Gaels (who include the Scots the Irish and myself).
Sea Horn wrote on the 01:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC) “The first historic evidence of the triangular harp comes from Babylonia, where one was found in circa 1920, and a very nice looking harp indeed.”
The Babylonian harp you speak of is displayed in (metropolitan museum in New York cc1920), it is squarer in shape and not characteristically Celtic in design. The Babylonian and Greek harps are actually classified as lyre harps or "lyres". These are vertical harps with 2 arms or more arms and began appearing in ancient Sumaria/Babylonia by 2800 BC. They are not Clarsach in shape and is more like a lyre. Therefore your reference here is obsolete.
Sea Horn wrote on the 01:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
“Regarding Irish harps, Heccataius, a Greek geographer describes singers in Ireland accompanied by stringed instruments which appear to be harps. These instruments used a scale, and instead of letters, the different notes were named after trees, that was 500 BC.”
Yes, the primitive Celts in Ireland seemed to be very musical as seen from the writings of Hecataeus, an Egyptian historian who lived about 500 B. C. Although his actual witnessing of the events are sheer conjecture, and second guessing at best. Of Ireland he also writes;
" There is a city, whose citizens are most of them harpers, who, playing upon the harp, chant sacred hymns to Apollo in the temple."
Archaeologically there is no evidence of a city in Ireland at that time or for that matter to suggest a temple to Apollo is flippant. He states that the instruments appear to be harps although the instruments he was used to were lyres and not clairsach’s as the celtic harp was not yet invented.
Sea Horn wrote on the 01:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The "Clairseach", was in common usage, it had 29 to 60 strings, with about 30 being the most common and they had fasteners called "ceis", for easy scale change. In 612, St. Gall's school of music was founded by the Irish harper Cellagh.
The first use of the word Clairsach in Scottish and Irish documents are from the 10th centaury till the 19th centaury. The document he states as having the word Clairsach in the 600's must have been translated wrongly. The Irish harper Cellagh is taken from the Irish myth cycles etc, and should be treated as such. Again these documents were translated in the 15th century when the clairsach in its modern definition was in use and would have had 30 strings. So I don't think you've done your research.
Sea Horn wrote on the 01:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
“There are numerous references to harps and harpers in the "Annals of Ulster", and these go way back beyond our timeframe. In the year 544 a meeting of harpers is recounted in the Din Seangus. Circa 600 AD”
Compilation of the chronicle now known as the 'ANNALS OF ULSTER' (which covers the period 431-1540) was begun in the late fifteenth century, under the direction of one Cathal Óg Mac Maghnusa, who died of smallpox in 1498. Up to 1489, the original compilation was the work of a single scribe - Ruaidhri Ó Luinín. Other hands have made additions in margins and spaces. Sourced from (Daniel P. Mc Carthy, Trinity College, Dublin)
Therefore the usage of the term Clairsach is obsolite because of its translation in 1489 A.D. The data is flawed due to contamination and bias towards the Celtic harp of the time, and is no indication of the instrument they used. Later carvings do show a Lyer and no Clairsach untill the 11.00's.
Sea Horn wrote on the 01:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC) If Christianity took 800 years to reach the Picts, surly the harp didn't take 4000 years.
After the fifth century, most Picts converted to Christianity, and most of their carvings reflect this change; many of the so-called "Celtic" crosses dotting Scotland are in fact Pictish stones. They were not immune to the Christian pill so to speak, as their southern Brythonic neighbors in Strathclyde were already becoming Christian at this time. The earliest Brythonic language reference dates from just before St Augustine set foot on Britain, and the poems of Aneirin's “Y Gododdin” (in present day Edinburgh) bear testimony to the fact that Christianity was by then long established amongst the native British celts.
Although Columba gets the lion’s share of credit for bringing Christianity to Scots, there were missionaries before him. The first known bringer of the Christian Faith to Scotland was St. Ninian. Like Patrick, he was originally a Briton, who dedicated a church at Whithorn in 397, which is increasingly regarded as the cradle of Scottish Christianity.
And lastly if the old Irish word for the harp was the Cruit then why did the Gaels deem it necessary to call the Picts by this. In short its definition of their race or a cultural aspect to describe these non-Gaels. - User:Celtic harper 12:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
If you didn’t second guessing then I would not feel it necessary to rant. The proof you have given is inconclusive. Celtic knot work is not exclusively Irish as seen in the Sutton Hoo treasure hoard and was noted by Calgacus. You talk about the Dupplin cross 830 AD being the only evidence we have. This is interesting, as any Irish stone pictorial evidence dates from the 9th to 10th centuaries. The later stones show an east/west migration from a non-Gaelic society to a Gaeltachta.
The so called written proof you have given is flawed by translations, second guessing and similar cultural biases. As Calgacus said you haven’t made a case at all, and you are bias towards the archaeological data,and blinded by your own nationalistic reasons. Yes, harping did exist in ancient Ireland. I have never disputed this. But the celtic harp may not have originated from there. Irish evidence be it pictorial or from written sources is so far inconclusive, and is post Pictish in nature. Your argument towards the Pictish stones being of Gaelic origins are insulting to the carvers as the ancient Picts were masters of stone carving, which is evident by the Brochs and Neolithic settlements so far discovered.
Not only did the Picts have to deal with the Romans, they also had their homelands taken away by the Irish Gaels, seeking lands beyond their own. So not all interactions were peaceful. Influence is a two way process good or bad. I’ll leave out the ranting if you drop the hostility towards anything celtic which is non-Gaelic in culture. User:Celtic harper 18:00, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I broadly agree with Sea_horn's analysis concerning the triangular harp. The 'Dupplin harp' is not a true triangular harp, it is really more bow shaped and lacks the T-pillar of the modern triangular harp. These harps were common in the middle east thousands of years ago. The 'Maedoc harp', Ireland Circa 1050 AD, complete with T-pillar, is really the first true representation of the triangular harp as we know it today, and obviously survived because of it's metal construct. Bluegold 13:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I have to disagree with both of you;
Really to be fair the celtic harp belongs to both the Irish and the Scots or the Picts, regardless of who had it first, as they are Gaels and celts. Because we have never physically seen one of these (8th, 9th and 10th) centaury harps, all we can do is speculate on an instrument that has evolved from ancient times. It’s all down to the original artists interpretation/skill etc in carving the monument in stone or later in metal.
Sea horn, saying that the Scots are trying to take the celtic harp for themselves or their own nationalistic tendencies is bordering on the ridiculous. The celtic harp was the national symbol of Scotland from ancient times to the 16th centaury. So even if they wanted to claim the harp back as their own they can. As for the harp being exclusively Irish, well its still the welsh national instrument too.
Considering that the Pictish carving and the metal Irish one is separated by 300 years and that thin metal work is a lot easier to carve than a huge block of stone your argument for the T-piller is inconclusive. The pictish carving could have had a T-pillar and the artist wasn’t that good, or the Irish artist was better at his metal carving.
As an afterthought, the Babylonian harps are not classified as true harps, but harp lyres. As far as I can find the Pictish instrument is classified as a triangular harp. Until you all hunt in a bog for an original instrument the juries well and truly out. whats all the fuss 19:01, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I have deleated some of my content as Calgacus insists on editing his former postings. Sea horn 03:06, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
- Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 13:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Here is an actual photograph of a Babylonian harp discovered by Leonard Wooley circa 1920. This is a triangular harp and it dates from about 4500 years ago. Oh Calgacus, you do rant ever so much about the Picts (who left no history or language), you are so selective in what you want to believe, and you are stating those beliefs as facts. By the way, I am English. You seem to have a hang up about Scotlands Irish roots. There is the evidence! Now, what do you say to that? Will you rubbish the evidence again? Sea horn 20:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem with your view of history, that's up to you. I wrote, and this is my belief from some years of reading on this matter, that the triangular harp came from the Middle East to Ireland by at least 500 AD, or even by 500 BC, and later it came to Scotland with the Gaels. If I have any problem about what you wrote, it is this. You rubbished almost everything I wrote, you denied that a Babylonian triangular existed and you used some of what I wrote, to my horror, to make an attack on the history of another country. I see you didn't address the Babylonian triangular harp in your last issue. Sea horn 17:53, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Aliases have been used. Sea horn 03:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Both of you:
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy: There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Do not make them. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that you may be blocked for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thanks, please keep the discussion civil. -- Craig Stuntz 12:56, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
First and foremost empirical data is important here, as suggested by the mediator from wikipedia. If there were Irish stones pre 9th centaury with triangular harp reliefs, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Notice I use the word discussion, and I would be fiercely defending the Irish position or another carving for that matter.
Sea horn, your pictorial data for the triangular harp, is somewhat different from the one I have found, one with Sir. Leonard Woolley holding the instrument. Although when I say holding I do mean it in the (broadest possible sense). What he is holding is a plaster cast of a harp/lyre or as its more commonly known “the Harp of Ur, although it is more commonly called a lyre. The original harp/lyre rotted away some millennia ago, so it’s not the original instrument and Sir Leonard Woolley poured plaster of Paris into the imprint.
Your picture omits the characteristic sound box with distinct calf/bull decoration. In this picture the instrument does have this relief. So baring that in mind, the picture I have here is the original interpretation Sir. Leonard Woolley found.
If the picture fails to load or is too small, click on this link at your perusal; Calgacus if you could load this picture I’d be grateful as I’m not that good with computers.
http://www.scottishstudies.com/920oorclub.htm
http://www.lyre-of-ur.com/pdf/BBCNews.pdf
The harp/lyre clearly shows a sound box and four distorted arms, this instrument is classified as a lyre because it’s not triangular in shape. The confusion arises (as far as I can see), when people look at the instrument and include the supporting pillar as part of the soundbox. The wood must have warped over time and the plaster poured into the hole. A true harp would never have this.
Other types of vague triangular shaped harp/lyres have existed, although these can’t be classified as a true triangular harps in the celtic or concert examples we have today. For more information look at;
http://www.smith.edu/hsc/museum/ancient_inventions/hsc21b.htm
They were played on the knee or held and strummed with the fingers. The Irish instruments up till the 11th century show this style of instrument. The Pictish instrument is much different; it stretches from the player’s ear directly to the floor, with the strings running vertical and the soundbox running the full length of the harp, from ear to floor. This is more characteristic of the celtic harp of today, than the harp of Ur or the Irish reliefs.
Yes triangular "of sort" harp/lyres have existed, I don’t dispute this I welcome this evidence. But the Pictish instrument is quite different. If my data is wrong then we’ll discuss the evidence.
Lastly, I value your comments positive or negative in this discussion, but bear in mind keep this conversation clean and we all can discuss the data as an intellectual rather than a nationalistic, demeaning, or confrontational manner. Celtic harper 09:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
No, I disagree with your analysis.
The Greek harp/lyre is not a true harp, that’s my point. I added it so I could show you where your confusion lies. Its rounded chest shape at best, triangular of sorts but not a true harp.
As I have said before; “One of the key points of the Pictish harp is the sound box runs the full length of the instrument and that the strings diminish in size and increase in tone up the scale of the instrument. It is more characteristic of the modern clairsach and concert harp. It is the first instrument with a T-pillar. This is why its distinguished from lyres and harp/lyres, and is the oldest credible record in existence.”
The Greek instrument has none of this. Its strings are all the same length and at best it has a strumming sound. All I have proven is that a triangular lyre or harp/lyre existed in antiquity. It is about as far removed from a clairsach as you can get. As for the argument for the lyre of Ur as proof, it’s a plaster cast of a bent lyre. Its box shaped, the reconstruction by academics has proves this.
Celtic harper 11:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually King Kennith MacAlpie, was of both Scots and Pictish ancestry. His control of the Picts may have been aided by the ancient law of matrilinier succession through which he had reason to challenge for the Pictish Crown.
“Sir Leonard's harp is a cast of the imprint of the original, it is still better a representation of the subject than a stone carving that came 3000 years later.”
Yeah right! A stone carving won’t warp or rot away. The simple matter of the argument is that this cross pre dates anythin that can be found in Ireland. As for the argument anbout the the Clonmacnoise cross, it’s a lyre just like the Greek one I included. Triangular or otherwise.
Yes we are back to square one or be it a triangular one and my original point. The first true representation of a celtic harp originated in the picts and not with the Gaels.
Celtic harper 12:00, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
You just don't get it guys. The triangular harp came from the Middle East, and that's now proven photo of the Babylonian harp. I have rarely come across such nationalistic arrogance. Highland Scottish and Pictish culture enthusiasts have to do some serious reflection on the origin of Highland Scottish tradition. Trevor Roper in his research suggests that the Highlands of Scotland were culturally deprived, and that the literature of the Highland Scot was a crude echo of the Irish literature. Trevor Roper claims also that the bards of the Scottish chieftains came from Ireland, and that the Scottish bards were the "rubbish of Ireland" who were periodically cleared from Ireland and deposited in that convenient wasteland, Scotland. Also, according to Trevor Roper, while Ireland remained culturally an historic nation, Scotland developed, at best, as its poor sister. He further claims that Scotland did not develop an independent Scottish tradition. (Roper, pp. 271 - 293.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.210.233.135 ( talk)
Lets just pause for a second and admire the works of the great Oxford don, Hugh Trevor Roper. His article reports on Scotland after the reformation and discusses about the fabrication of writers in the 1800s to claim Gaelic culture all to its own. Such authors have been disproved and no historian takes them on fact. We have never said this. We argue that not all celtic culture could possibly have come from Ireland, just because you think this to be the case unknown poster!
Roper has an axe to grind, but his comments are irelevent to this discussion. Oh yes, he’s also the man who authenticated the 60 volumes of Hitlers fake diries, lol. . . enough said!
Celtic harper 12:00, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
207.210.233.135's comments are the only kind of nationalism actually displayed in this thread. It's a case of nationalists accusing everyone else of nationalism in order to be nationalistic themselves. As to Roper, the article referred to is notorious in Scottish historiography, and no professional historian takes Roper's comments seriously. Roper was the kind of guy who liked the anti-Celtic racism of guys like John Pinkerton; and, once again, calling the Scots "Irish" because they spoke Gaelic dialects is like calling Czechs "Poles" because they speak western Slavic dialects. Anyone who does it is either trying to knock Scottish nationality or promote Irish nationalistic sentiments. Gaels - Scottish or Irish - call and always have called their language "Gaelic", never "Irish"; medieval Gaels used the term lingua Scotica (Gaelic language) for the Gaelic language, never lingua Hibernica (Irish language). - Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 18:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Sea horn you wrote
“My basic premise is that the triangular harp was not first used by the Picts, (who left no language or history), but originated in Mediterranean area and Middle East. Later, I believe that the harp was brought to Alba (now Scotland), by Gael (Irish) settlers in the first millenium AD.”
The main point of my first posting, was to examine the data from the pictorial evidence in the British isles and Ireland. The Pictish harp as far as I can see is unique different from the lyres and harp/lyers that come from Europe, the Middle East or anywhere else. These harp/lyres (including the babylonian harp/lyre) are not classified as a true harps (in the modern or clarsach definition). If a triangular lyre/harp did come from Babylon then it must have moved through the Greek and Roman empire. The Pictish design is radical and fundamentally different from anything before, and is a bench mark.
The main crux of the argument with ireland is that people assume the celtic harp originated there, because its a nationalistic symbol and I do see why some feathers are being ruffled in this “talk harp” page. The harp is a symbol and means a lot to many people.
As for the Gaels bringing the lyre to Alba, and the Picts. The Romans could have brought the lyre to Britain. It is quite possible that the Roman lyre, was transformed into the unique Pictish harp due to the trade that existed between the Britons and Picts north of Hadrians wall. The Pictish harp is different form anything else and is unique.
Sorry I forgot my password and have signed in here to varify my post. Celtic Harper 23:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the big problem with this page is the lack of Irish imput, 'Celtic Harper' and 'Calgacus' have a very strong Scottish POV. As for myself, my grandmother is a McDonald, whether of Irish or Scottish origin I do not know, so there is Gael blood flowing through my veins too, therefore I may also be biased, and one could accuse me of having a Gaelic POV. Celtic Harper, in your last addition, you assume that the only connection these isles had with the Middle East was through the Roman invasion, well that's not so. Have you studied history? Also, the Clonmacnoise carving predates the Gael/Pictish carving by 150 years, and all of your theories are based on the Gael/Pictish carving. So you talk quite a lot about possibilities, but you dismiss other possibilities and evidence quite offhandedly.
Sea horn
14:45, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Sea Horn you say that their is not a lot of Irish posting here. As I have said before, I am Irish and have Scottish blood, I am also Gael, as all my surnames are of Irish and Scottish origin. I dont see your point at all.
Celtic Harper 23:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Feel free to look at this for a true definition on the Clonmacnoise instrument and as I have said before it is not a true harp.
Harbison, P. (1992) The High Crosses of Ireland, An Iconographic and Photographic survey, 3 volumes, Bonn: RGZM.
Harbison1992, 4, argues that the reference to a High Cross at Clonmacnoise is a reference to this cross carving S2 - David playing his lyre.
Alasdair Ross 'Harps of Their Owne Sorte'? A Reassessment of Pictish Chordophone Depictions "Cambrian Medieval Celtic Studies" 36, Winter 1998.
“Many of the stones show various type of lyre, e.g the one shown here from Clonmacnoise. These instruments are not harps; they have a flat sound box with a bridge and tailpiece to hold the strings, like on a fiddle, but instead of the fiddle's neck and fingerboard they have two arms holding a yoke which supports the strings. This type of lyre is relatively well known at this early period from many parts of northern Europe. There are even some surviving remains of instruments from the 6th and 7th centuries, found in royal burials in England and on the continent, e.g. the remains from Sutton Hoo and Prittlewell .”
Graeme Lawson, An Anglo-Saxon harp and lyre of the ninth century, in "Music and Tradition", ed. Widdes and Wolpert, Cambridge 1991,
“However lyres are very different instrument from harps, and it is unlikely that triangular harps evolved out of these lyres.”
Graeme Lawson and Alasdair Ross, argue that such instruments as depicted on the Clonmacnoise and the Sutton hoo examples, could not have evolved into the Celtic harps. The Clonmacnoise carving you state so fiercely as direct evidence, would be the "round topped" type of lyre and according to these academics, the triangular harp could not have evolved from them.
Celtic Harper 17:40, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
From one crazy Scotsman to another. Hey Calgacus, I see you have a history of attacking this page. Was not The Dagda an old Pictish god in ancient Ireland. Surely that would support your passionate theory that the Picts invented the triangular harp, and did you know that Ireland had Picts too. Also, the ancient name in old Gaelic Ireland for a lyre was Cruit, please check your history. .. MacPhersonAndy 03:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I don’t really think Calgacus is attacking this page at all. His passionate theory as you say is actually backed up by empirical data and current theory surrounding the origins of the celtic harp. Experts say no triangular harp can be found in pre-10th century Ireland or the Gaels of Scotland for that matter. The evidence of the Dagda having the harp in written record is no clear indication of the type of instrument used. The common misconception is that just because the written record states a harp, doesn’t really mean that the harp was a triangular harp.
Roslyn Rench, The Harp (1969): Its History, Technique and Repertoire. Garden city press Ltd. Letchworth marked, Hertfordshire, UK.
“Lyres are often confused with harps in literature. The word psaltery, lyre and harp are often confused with one another and both come from the word to pluck a stringed instrument. The best we can hope to do then is note what instruments are depicted in their art and ignore the written record.”
She also states that the appearance of a column made the advent of the modern harp first appeared in Ross, Scotland in the 8th century.
Written records are not clear enough, they are not accurate and do not depict the instrument used. That’s why the experts don’t take the Irish myth cycles seriously as the data is flawed. Furthermore there are no harp depictions in Ireland till the 10th century.
Stokes (1954): Music and letters. Vol 35, No4 (p287- 293).Oxford University Press. Quote:
“Among the ancient Gaels were musical composers called bards, who accompanied their own singing on lyres.”
J.Keay & Julia Keay. (2000): Collins Encyclopaedia of Scotland, Clarsach, p171. Harper Collins publishers. Quote: “The earliest descriptions of a triangular framed harp i.e. harps with a fore pillar are found on 8th century Pictish stones. Pictish harps were strung from horsehair. The instruments apparently spread south to the Anglo Saxons who commonly used gut strings and then west to the Gaels of the Highlands and to Ireland. The first credible written record of the word Clarsach or (Clar Shioleach) willow board, first appears in the writings of Giolla Brighde Albanach a Scottish bard who lived in the 11th century.”
It appears that the Irish and Scottish Gaels used the lyre and that the Pictish harp spread to them. I agree with you though, the ancient name in old Gaelic for a lyre was Cruit, but you forgot to mention that the Old Irish Gaelic for Clarsach was also Cruit.
Celtic Harper 20:00, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I really had to laugh at the citations, citations, citations bit. That’s what wikipedias all about, credible empirical data. The experts agree that the Picts innovated the triangular harp as they have studied this field for many years. I have dismissed the Irish sources because the experts in this field do and there is no credible archaeological data. Oh, I don’t have to prove to you that I’m Irish, I know I am. I take it on face value that you claim to be Scottish regardless of your views. As for the “so many books knocking about and half of them not worth quoting let alone reading” bit. Well you seem to have no problem with those sources when it suits. To cut to the chase the empirical data backs up my point.
Celtic Harper
20:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys, this is not a forum! An-gabhar 18:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
That last comment MacPherson really had me laughing. Actually if youd read the post I said;
"Sorry I forgot my password and have signed in here to varify my post. Celtic Harper 23:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)"
I lost my password and had to log in with a different address. No cloak and dagger tactics here mate!! LOL.
Celtic Harper
20:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Tosh! - MacPhersonAndy 17:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm, not gonna continue this article's revert warring. Myself, Celtic Harper and a few others have shown why blanket statement's about an Irish origin for the Celtic harp are not supported by evidence. At the very least, the article should be balanced. The statement "The European harp tradition seems to have originated in ancient Ireland over a thousand years ago. In Irish mythology, a magical harp, Daurdabla is possessed by The Dagda." is the main culprit, but the referenced section about the possible Pictish origins below contradicts this. I deleted this controversial section, but others like to reinstall it. The article is POV and biased. The tag is replacing the revert warring. - Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 17:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
More Tosh! I have no input into the Harp page, much of it is yours! - MacPhersonAndy 17:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
It's you who is reverting, not me. MacPhersonAndy 18:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I kept something in that you deleted without commentry, not so much a mere revert! You have a lot of input into that page. Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim. MacPhersonAndy 18:36, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually the two bits of information that Calgacus refers to (re Gaels and Picts) are totally mutually exclusive and one doesn't contradict the other. Also they are at different timeframes. An-gabhar 20:09, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I really think it's a bit OTP to incert the POV, and I urge it be removed at once!!!!!
LOL this is all crazy! Celtic Harper 01:10, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Well I disagree with you, stop puting words into my mouth. An Gavhar is right this is not a forum! Celtic Harper 01:10, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed a personal attack on me from this talk harp page. Whatever I have said has been backed up by empirical data. If you think I’m a know it all, then engage in this debate rather than bringing my character into disrepute! Personal attacks are not part of wikipedia. As for these empty and unproven claims, I have backed this up with studies and data. Its not my problem if you have a problem with this.
Celtic Harper
01:10, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
It has been discovered on WP:RFCU that Bluegold ( talk · contribs), MacPhersonAndy ( talk · contribs), An-gabhar ( talk · contribs), Bel air ( talk · contribs), and Raspitin ( talk · contribs) , No More POV Please ( talk · contribs), River run ( talk · contribs) are all socks. Bluegold ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been engaging in sockpuppetry to further the wikipedian strength of his POV on this and other pages. Moreover, Sea horn ( talk · contribs) is a suspected sock, but may be just, if Bluegold was telling the truth on the investigation page, Bluegold's work colleague trying to help him out. - Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 19:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
The article says she is a harpist with some orchestras and a teacher. Is she notable enough to warrant mention? Deepak 16:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that a very important part of the subject has be forgotten: the harp among the Breton people in the past; the action of Breton musicians, specially Alan Stivell to promote the Celtic Harp (and thru it the Harp in general) in the world, and also in the idea and creation of the Electric harps. 86.214.107.184 18:40, 25 May 2006 (UTC
I changed "cross harp" to "cross-strung harp" in order to avoid confusion with the harmonica. -- Hesperides
This article is biased and very eurocentric. It focuses on a certain type of Harp (Irisch/Celtic/European) and covers other haprs in a subsection "Other harps around the world". The title of this section shows that the POV of the article is biased. The article's POV is European and from here it looks at othere things arround the world. The contents of the "other types"-sections belongs up! Wikipedia should have a NPOV, so the global view must come first, then the special cases may be covered. The structure should be something like world->Africa/Asia/Europe and then subsections on special harp music cultures (or separate articles, if this becomes too long). The celtic harp is not the root of this tree structure but one of the branches. There are many harp music cultures arround the world which should be covered in equal depth. For example, the harp music of the Azande in the Central African Republic (see for example Kubik, Gerhard Zum Verstehen afrikanischer Musik, Aufsätze, Reihe: Ethnologie: Forschung und Wissenschaft, Bd. 7, 2., aktualisierte und ergänzte Auflage, 2004, 448 S., ISBN 3-8258-7800-7) or the unique Enanga music of Uganda deserve just the same attention. So the whole article must be rewritten. I am also astonished about the level of ranting that a topic like this can provoke! If you keep cool and keep the NPOV-directive in mind, it is very clear what has to be done about this article. Nannus 20:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I am doing a music assignment for school. I wish to know more about the celtic harp, where it is used, construction, people considered experts on the instrument, history and the popularity of the instrument. If any one knows anything about it...... I would also like to ask if you play the instrument yourself. Please help me, I'm stuck!
You can go to www.alan-stivell.com where you find many elements about the main Celtic harpist. 15:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)~
A musician does not = a musical instrument. This leads to confusion. This redirection should be undone. --caroldermoid 17:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
It says in the article under this title that these harps are known as Irish harps not cláriseach in Ireland, so why is "Wire-strung harps (clàrsach or cláirseach)" the heading if cláirseach is the lesser used term? Everytime 01:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Given the great number of different types of harp in the world, and the complaints here that this article is Euro-centric, I would like to propose that this page be radically restructured to make it work like for example keyboard instrument with a brief historiy and overview, and then links off to separate pages on all the different regional/historical types of harp. I'm not a wiki expert - can we start a draft version somewhere? StrumStrumAndBeHanged 18:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I've been considering editing this page a little, but only because I thought the description of the modern concert harp's pedal system was not entirely clear, and I certainly don't want to buy in the ethnic wars that (to my surprise) this topic seems to evoke; I was just thinking about whether I might rewrite this description of the pedals, but have contented myself with expanding and clarifying it slightly.
But I noticed that the same description was found in both this article ("Harp") and in the article "Pedal harp". For now, I have modified both copies the same way - but it does bring up the question about the supposed bias of this article, because it does seem to treat the modern concert harp in disproportionate detail, and also the much shorter "Pedal harp" article is ostensibly about the same harp, with some content duplicated.
I thought it may be a bit confusing to have some detail about this harp in one article, and some in the other, and it brings to mind this thought: Why not shift some of the finer detail about this harp to the "Pedal harp" article, and let this "Harp" article give a description of this harp in just about the same level of detail as it treats the other harps? Duplicated content (such as the description of the pedal system) would go in just one article, whichever one was considered most suitable for that level of detail.
It would be a bit fiddly and time-consuming to do this properly, but I think it's worth considering. I do not consider myself expert enough on the harp to do it myself; but if some expert could do this, perhaps it might satisfy both sides in the dispute that's been going on about the claimed bias of the article.
Just my thoughts, anyway. M.J.E. 06:20, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Although the Camac and the Truitt levers are well known and work very well, by far the most commonly used type is still the Loveland. They are standard on Dusty Strings and, for some years now, Triplett harps. Several other makers offer them as options. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.231.138.38 ( talk) 11:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The section "European-derived harp" begins:
Most European-derived harps have a single row of strings with strings for each note of the C Major scale (over several octaves).
I would have thought that, technically, "C Major scale" should read "C-flat major scale", because that is how the strings are tuned. But the thing that stays me from correcting it thus is that I only know this to be a fact of the modern orchestral harp, and I do not know if it is true of other European-derived harps.
Should it be changed? - or should the wording be changed to suggest that the strings are not assigned to this or that particular major scale, but something more along the lines that the notes are tuned to the letter-names of a diatonic scale, the exact inflection of those notes depending on the pedal settings?
I'm thinking about changing it, but feel a bit diffident about doing so; if it were referring specifically to the modern concert harp, I would change it without hesitation.
Perhaps someone knowledgeable about European-derived harps in general could suggest the best way of handling it. But I do feel the reference to C major at that point as it currently stands is quite misleading. (The later description of how the harp pedals change the tuning of strings does clarify this a bit later on; but I feel the article should not be misleading even in the short term or even in a brief summary or overview.) M.J.E. 06:38, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I am going to take harp lessons after the holidays and was wondering if y'all knew which harp (lever or pedal) would be easier to play, or if both are just as challenging. I am leaning towards the lever harp.
sincerely - MurtaghxMisery ( talk) 16:44, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
How about an illustration that shows the "anatomy" of a harp? The opening paragraph mentions things like "soundboard", "resonator". It would be nice to see a drawing with these labels. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.53.197.12 ( talk) 03:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The French method does not use "expressive gestures", that's the Salzedo method; the article had it wrong and backwards! I fixed it, but I am annoyed that it ever got that way to begin with. Blah, blah, blah! </rant>- Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 20:27, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
To unsigned editor 93.107.77.126 I have noticed your undo of my edit on the Harp Page, firstly your edit was unsigned and you state that all Scottish/Pictish carvings have come from Irish manuscript images pre-9th century. I'm afraid the only credible evidence of an Irish triangular harp image comes from the Madoc book cover so I will need a cited reference of an Irish image to credit your comment. Also the edit you have added to cites Pictish stones reference includes an Irish manuscript as the oldest European evidence for a triangular harp. This reference has been taken out of context as the cited source does not include ANY Irish source images as there are none. Until you source a credible image from a pre-9th century source I will place a citation needed tag on your edit. You may however be getting mixed up with the Lyre being confused with the Anglo-Saxon Harp or Harpa as the cruit in Ireland which was used in Ireland until the 12th century. Some experts even think the triangular harp HAS no connection in Ireland till the 11th century. I will need empirical data to remove the tag. Regards Celtic Harper ( talk) 23:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
User 93.107.77.126, thank you for your comment. I am aware and have read the article by Alasdair Ross to that all the Scottish (and by implication all the Irish) figures were copied from foreign drawings and not from life. I myself have also included that reference in the
clarsach page so you have taken my edits out of context. Furthermore Ross cites his only evidence to support this comes from the utrecht palster which is 20 years younger than the Pictish harp stones and only arrived in the British isles some 100 years after its completion. So again there is no Irish source from this.
I would also point out Alasdair Ross is quoted as saying in Pictish Chordophone Depictions. Alasdair Ross in Cambrian Medieval Celtic studies, 36, 1998, esp. p. 41. The harps depicted in Pictland are unique, and do not look like those depicted in later medieval Scotland or Ireland. So it looks like he contradicts himself, and in both cases does not state Ireland as the outside source of the Pictish instrument, so this does not back up you claims of an Irish providence for the carvings. Furthermore, it seems to me you are trying to Gaelicise the Picts as the only possibility reason of there being a triangular harp like in their culture. Also the assumption the Picts were a blank receivers is nil and not supported in empirical research. I would like a citation for the Pictish stones not being of Pictish manufacture by an expert for your own pov statement. The statement you put about the St John's Crucifixion Plaque is rather obscure as any empirical evidence I have seen, nor does the cite the plaque.
Further from being motivated by nationalistic tendencies I am motivated by citations and credible empirical sources. I have researched Irish contemporary sources and you may find the following interesting although contradictory to your own views.
The Ancient Music of Ireland Edward Bunting (2000) Curier Dover publications (originally published in 1843). From an Irish perspective, three distinct forms of lyre are evident; round top lyres as seen in the crosses at Ullard shows a quadrangular instrument with no forepillar.
Recent introduction from Scotland to Ireland of the triangular harp or Clarsach. in History Literature and music in Scotland 1700-1560 Russell Andrew McDonald 2002 University of Toronto Press, Arts Medieval.
Celtic Music History and Criticism Kenneth Mathieson 2001 Backbeat books p192. Only two quadrangular instruments occur within the Irish immigrant context on the west coast of Scotland and show the use of an Irish lyre. From this data it was apparent the triangular harp was present in Scotland before Ireland and the earliest harps used in Ireland were quadrangular ecclesiastical instruments.
The Story of the Irish Harp its History and Influences Norah Joan Clark (2003) North Creek Press. The characteristic instrument of the Irish Celts was a U-shaped lyre and There is good evidence the triangular harp originated in Pictish Scotland rather than Ireland. The first true representation of an Irish triangular harp appears in the St. Mogue shrine.
Music and the Celtic other world: from Ireland to Iona, Caren Ralles MacLeod (2000) Edinburgh University Press. Many such crosses in pre-Norman period in Ireland what is striking is that there are no triangular framed harps at all. No representations of triangular framed harps as we know it.
Pictish three sided harp replaced the Irish style quadrangular instrument. Divided Gaels: Gaelic Cultural Identities in Scotland and Ireland c1200-1650. (2004) Wilson MacLeod Oxford university Press.
Interesting as they don’t source an Irish providence for the triangular harp within a Pictish context. And most strikingly of all other articles discuss the triangular harp was first appeared in Ireland at the start of the Anglo-Norman invasion.
The Ancient Music of Ireland Edward Bunting (2000) Curier Dover publications (originally published in 1843).
The Musical Times and Circular (1956) JASTOR Grey University of Michigan. Celtic Music History and Criticism Kenneth Mathieson 2001 Backbeat books p192.
Fintan Vallely, ed (1999) The Companion to Irish Traditional Music New York University Press.
A New History of Ireland, prehistoric and early history. Daibhi OCoinin (2005). Oxford University Press.
Daibhi OCoinin is an Irish author and also states the triangular harp is not of Irish providence.
So no, your own personal theories regarding the influences from Ireland to the Picts are not backed by empirical sources. Unless you can come up with credible cited sources for your comments and views, I think your editing is being influenced by your POV and patriotism, and not called for here at Wikipedia. Regards Celtic Harper ( talk) 13:00, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) It sounds as if there has been disagreement on this question outside of Wikipedia. If I may make a suggestion, perhaps that disagreement that should be detailed briefly in the article (with citations). For instance, if Author 1 said x, let the article say so, and if Author 2 disputed what Author 1 said, let the article also say that. While the article is already long, it could stand another couple of sentences. We're clearly not going to settle the question here, so just let the fact that there's a question be reflected in the article. Rivertorch ( talk) 17:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Although the harp seems to be and probably was in Scotland earlier than the rest of Britain it isnt encouraging that people here are dismissing roper by actually citing people like devine and fry - how on earth can their Anti-Scottishness even begin to be compared. Devine even uses the lowland clearances to play down the highland clearances but not because he wanted to suggest they were iffy but just to applaud the bottom feeding institutions that did both and defend the same crap from being criticised by Scots.
THAT much lunacy just to support a HARP = = the institutionalised neutered anti-english neurotic 'pictish' garbage writing above are wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.52.38 ( talk) 07:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Why are the strings of the harp described as perpendicular to the soundboard? Perpendicular means a 90° angle. In the illustration those strings join the soundboard at an acute angle of less than 90°. Caeruleancentaur ( talk) 23:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
hi am just looking 4 inspiration 4 a competition and was wondering if u cud help the idea is 2 creat a mascot 4 finn harps fc ani ideas??????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.13.94 ( talk) 17:12, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I could not come up with a better name so please change it to something better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.75.154 ( talk) 23:30, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
"French composers such as Claude Debussy and Maurice Ravel composed harp concertos and chamber music widely played today"
My memory may fail me but I don't remember any harp concerto from either Debussy or Ravel. In fact, the only harp works I can come up with for these two are Debussy's Chansons de Bilitis and Sonata en trio, and Ravel's introduction and allegro. Could someone tell me if I'm missing something obvious? 128.194.39.250 ( talk) 04:48, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
The Debussy concerto is the Dances sacree et profane, which is one of the most popular concertos for harp. It was originally written for chromatic harp but Renie transcribed it for pedal harp very shortly after its premiere. 128.164.117.176 ( talk) 18:45, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Could we get a better source for the harp being considered a percussion instrument than one harpist/instructor saying it is? It seems as logical as a guitar being a percussion instrument. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 14:20, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
The standard range of the concert harp is C♭1 to G♯7, not C♮1 (or D♮1) to G♮7. I feel that this needs correction. -- Number Googol ( talk) 02:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
I just wanted to find an article on the modern orchestral harp, so I entered the word "harp" and got to this page of course. I then had to look right down to find the marvellous *section* "concert harp" on the modern orchestral harp, with description of how it works, diagrams, photo.
If I enter "concert harp" or "orchestral harp" in wikipedia I get taken to "pedal harp". This page duplicates to a large extent the good section in this article, and in my opinion not as good as the section I mentioned.
There is duplication and incompleteness. There could be a really good article on the modern orchestral harp (with the section mentioned as a starting point), but the material is distributed between "Concert harp" and "Pedal harp" articles.
The main picture at the top in both articles shows a nice medieval harp but the one next to it was only "modern" about 150 years ago. It looks like Queen Victoria used it. P0mbal ( talk) 22:05, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
I am considering adding a cleanup tag to this article, or trying a major clean up. There are a number of big sections that duplicate content on other pages (e.g. concert harp, clarsach). There is also a large amount of non-encyclopedic trivia especially under concert harp.
I am proposing to re-arrange the categorisation, so as to give a short succinct overview of harp traditions in each region of the world, with links to their specific pages. Also to remove anything more than this and place it onto the relevant specific pages.
Also to shorten the introduction section and make it more general and less western-classical in content and approach.
If anyone has any thoughts or opinions on this please let me know before I start on it.
StrumStrumAndBeHanged ( talk) 14:03, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Just noting that today's featured article in German Wikipedia is about harps in ancient Egypt ( de:Harfner_(Altes_Ägypten)), which ha sno parallel article heer. Perhaps someone is interested to translate some content for use on this page here. -- Pjacobi ( talk) 07:30, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Nabla (instrument) redirects here. Nabla states: "A Hebrew stringed instrument after which that symbol was named, see harp". There should be something about this thing in Harp (or in Nabla (instrument)). -- Tomdo08 ( talk) 15:45, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Guitars, lyres, and kitharae are not zithers. There are four basic subgroups under the Chordophone family: harps, zithers, lutes. and lyres. Guitars go with the lutes, and kitharae go with the lyres. I cleaned up the Terminology section to fix this. 67.206.165.1 ( talk) 06:02, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
I agree that the ancient, Celtic, (folk?) and pedal harp pages should receive an overhaul, with the main "Harp" page serving more as a general overview; I wouldn't mind contributing, especially to the section on pedal harps, and can provide some assistance with references. Actually, I'm willing to clean it up on my own if necessary, though it's always nice to have assistance with an ambitious project.
Does anyone have any valid suggestions, or was it simply a convenient page to stage arguments over where the darn thing originated? As a student harpist myself, I'm fairly annoyed at how bad this page is; the harp has to put up with enough misconceptions already. Has anyone realized that the only photos in the "pedal/concert harp" section are NOT of a modern pedal harp, but of an early, experimental model and a folk harp? It's an embarrassment.
So, in essence; does anyone even care anymore? Stelarinna ( talk) 02:32, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth ( talk) 02:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Being a harpist of the French method I have chosen not to make any changes to the article regarding Technique (specifically the paragraph regarding Salzedo). However I feel the paragraph desperately needs editing to remove bias towards the Salzedo method. This section portrays the French method as a stuffy outdated technique and paints the Salzedo method as the modern and therefore superior method of playing. Both methods are equally viable for harpists, as technique is individual to the player. The paragraph is heavily in praise of Salzedo and is not objective. If another harpist can see their way to writing an unbiased Harp#Technique section they would be making the article more informative for prospective students and enthusiasts. 14.201.0.119 ( talk) 23:40, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Well this is the general Harp article, not the pedal harp article, so surely a section on technique should equally cover all kinds of harp technique equally: African, Asian, south American, Irish, etc. - this article should be a general overview of different types of harp from around the world, with links off to their specific pages, not loaded up on technical detail on specific regional or cultural types such as the Western orchestral pedal harp. To be honest, harp techniques around the world and through history are so diverse I don't see how a general "Harp" article can possibly have a section on "technique". StrumStrumAndBeHanged ( talk) 21:05, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
I've just made some amendments re pedal harps. I've added information re the missing pedal mechanism on the lowest C&D strings and (on most harps) on the highest G string. The pedal harp mechanism is complicated enough, so this information usually gets left out when discussing how the pedals work, but that can lead to ambiguities re the harp's range. Ideally I would like to replace the range illustration used here (C flat to G sharp) with the one used on the pedal harp page (C natural-D-natural to G natural) as a) we don't normally include scordatura options on other string instrument ranges and b) the illustration used on the pedal harp page has the benefit of pointing out that there is a missing semitone between the lower C and D strings however you tune them - but I see that there has already been discussion on this page re the range illustration, so I have left it as it is. I've used Inglefield and Neill as a reference.
I've also added some information re the use of the fifth finger under Modern European and American Instruments, with references.
I've changed the mention of the upper middle to upper strings being made of nylon to "either gut or nylon" but I can't find a reference for this. However, all my non-wire strings are gut, right to the top, and if you order Bow Brand strings, at least, you need to specify either gut or nylon for the upper registers.
I've been relatively bold re the technique section. I agree with the comment above re Salzedo bias, and I've cut out details of his biography, his playing and compositional style and harp designing etc, which don't really relate to technique, and added some examples of his theory. I've also removed some bits from the French technique part - the thumb is not really low relative to the hand - it's still kept well above the rest of the hand - it's just low relative to the Salzedo technique. I've also removed the reference to musical choices, which seems unfounded and inappropriate. I haven't been so bold as to remove the section entirely, although I have some sympathy with StrumStrumandbeHanged's point above. However, given the rancour that occasionally exists (particularly in the US) between different schools, it's likely that people might approach Wikipedia looking for information. Mohntorte ( talk) 01:10, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Mandanabeygi:Wikipedia Chinese translation "Origins Of Harp" Persia is not mentioned.Seems like "the Persian harp of Perspolis/Persia in Iran " is not translated at all,and "File:Harp-Sassanid.png|Ancient Persian harps carved in stone" is not attached also.< http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%B1%8E%E7%90%B4>.维基百科(英文)上提到的是“竖琴出现在古波斯”PERSIA-IRAN伊朗<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harp> 该文还有足够的照片和历史资料证明竖琴是古波斯(现在的伊朗)的乐器。and also on chinese free encyclopedia website called baidu "Persia/Iran" is not mentioned as the origin of Harp,which I wrote to them and hope it would be added to the article and it will be edited as soon as possible.Mandanabeygi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mandanabeygi ( talk • contribs) 13:01, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
The illustration for this section appears to include black (or very dark) text on a black (or very dark) background. Completely unreadable. Since the image appears to be a computer generation, would someone care to change the text to /white/ (or some other lighter color) so that it can actually be seen? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.92.174.105 ( talk) 23:45, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
To the person who added the contribution on the Tamil harp (or any other person who would happen to know Tamil): the contribution uses two different transliterations for the word யாழ் (harp) namely yaal and yaazh (that is, they transliterate the letter ழ் in two different ways namely 'l' and 'zh'). This can be confusing for people who do not know Tamil. Please make up your mind. Pick one or the other. Thank you. Signed: Basemetal (write to me here) 09:23, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Section 6.3 ought to be moved. It doesn't make sense to leave it in the "Modern European and American instruments" section. It should be moved to the historical part, namely "Development and history". Please state any objection here. Contact Basemetal here 15:00, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
For what it's worth, it seems to me that the fourth paragraph of #Folk, lever, and Celtic instruments reads like an advertising piece promoting Allan Shiers' Teifi semi tone.
“ One of the attendant problems with lever harps is the potential loss of quality when the levers are used. The Teifi semi tone developed by Allan Shiers is a development from traditional mechanisms and nips up the string with two forks similarly to a concert harp. The semi tone is double locking for a full clear sound and does not wear the string. It is machined from solid brass and hardened steel and is adjustable by an eccentric roller to suit any gauge of string. In addition, the whole unit can be moved up or down to affect perfect pitch and string alignment. The lever arms are coloured for ease of note recognition and two sizes are made to suit treble, mid and bass. ”
-- Kevjonesin ( talk) 12:45, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
This article has gotten into a pretty sorry state, though I can see where a number of editors have jumped in to make some needed improvements. Should we list here some ideas for how best to structure the article, and then dig into getting it fixed? Here are a few suggestions of mine. Feel free to add to the list and sign with three "~" tildes.
It might be useful to have a comprehensive "Classification" section to list all the types and subtypes of harps (and those that have "harp" in the name but aren't considered harps). "Terminology and etymology" has some of this, the lead has some, and some are in the various other sections. What does everyone think? Facts707 ( talk) 17:10, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
looking for names of harps pictured with cherubs
thanks in advancr---- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.200.245.62 ( talk) 10:20, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Do you mean cherubs or angels? Vorbee ( talk) 19:53, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
Need a section identifying typical string weights & tensions and resulting lengths for needed notes, which results in harp's shape. 71.230.16.111 ( talk) 02:16, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
In the Types of harp section,can i add the yazh as a type of harp,as it even says that it is a type of harp on this article? Simulator-master ( talk) 08:22, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
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Can anyone tell what sort of harp this is? from a mural in Ancient Crete [2700 to 1450 BC] [1] [2] 58.178.10.144 ( talk) 23:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I edited the section on folk and lever harps to clarify a few things. The folk/lever harp, while used quite a lot for folk and traditional music, is also a harp played by people who may have no or little interest in folk music. Musicians who cannot afford a pedal harp, those who prefer the smaller sizes and different timbres, and so on. (Such as myself. I do actually happen to know a fair amount about Celtic history and music, I simply prefer to play classical music on my Celtic-butt lever harp. Musicology studied at university, great personal interest, etc etc.) It is wise to acknowledge in a public article discussing modern harping that the small harp is not "just" for folk/traditional/Celtic music. Many people do not realise that they don't have to have a pedal harp to play non-folk music, and often get the impression that the small harp is not a "real" harp.
The language has been tidied up also. A few shorter paragraphs make for clearer reading, especially on this here internet. -- Cantrixargenta
Edited electric harp references and added links to the electric harp article stub (which I started). Precedence is for having electric harp as a separate article as per electric violin, electric guitar, etc. Also edited/clarified some bits about lever harps and added internal links for terms such as sharp and flat. -- Cantrixargenta
Replaced the BMP image with a JPEG. The original BMP is here: media:new harp-thumbnail.bmp
Changed the caption on the Webster's dictionary harp illustration. That's definitely a medieval (Romanesque style, too) harp on the left, not what we harpers/harpists today would generally call a folk harp. The pedal harp in the pic isn't particularly modern one either, nor is it a good illustration, honestly. I'll see if I can find a better one. -- Cantrixargenta
I've changed a long-standing reference to it as a "string-percussion instrument" to just "string instrument". I can imagine a piano or a hammered dulcimer, for example, being described as a "string-percussion" instrument (though I don't think I've ever seen it done), because their strings are hammered. But with the harp, they're just plucked, so it doesn't seem to make much sense. -- Camembert
I've always thought of a harp as a string-percussion instrument just because it is plucked. It is a stringed instrument, but it's not in the "string" family (with violins and basses and things). To me, plucking is a percussive movement: pulling the string and releasing it to create a sound. I've heard pianos described as "string-percussion", too, since they have strings and are hammered (similar to plucking). Other than "string-percussion", I don't know how to classify the harp/piano family, and that term doesn't seem to be widely spread. -- Dreamyshade
You're right that trying to classify instruments is a troublesome thing - it has been the central subject of a number of books. " percussion instruments", however, are usually defined as "something which makes noise by being struck", and plucked instruments are not usually put in that class. "String instrument" is an awkward term, because classical musicians sometimes use it to mean only orchestral strings (violin, viola, cello, double bass), but it's also used to mean any instrument which makes sound through vibrating strings, so it's the term we should use here, I think. -- Camembert
I wonder if we should just call the harp a chordophone. It's stringed and somewhat percussive, but neither orchestra strings nor percussion. When it has to be classified (in instrument books and things), I've seen it as "strings", but never "percussion". If we called it a chordophone, we could put "( string instrument)" in there next to it. This way, I think it would clarify that the harp isn't with the "orchestral strings", but that it's a stringed instrument. -- Dreamyshade
Yes, I think that's a good idea. I'll make the change. -- Camembert
Many harp makers do electric harps. Did Lyon and Healy develop the first one? If so we should probably note that. If not we really should mention the other folks. -- EEMalinoski
Camembert: Perhaps a look at a symphony orchestra is in order. The harp is a member of the percussion family according to their classifications. EEMalinoski: I'm not sure about a Lyon and Healy electric harp, but Camac in France has been making them since at least 1997 if not earlier. Do you have a date for a Lyon and Healy electric harp? Also, Rather than a single line, I've written up a paragraph for the Wire Strung Harp. I am a wire strung harper, myself. -- brichard
In a symphony orchestra, the harp is all by itself. Dreamyshade 05:14, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
As the old song says, "*STRIKE* the harp in tones of joy". It never was "plucked". Plucking a harp in fact is bad for your fingers, you still want to strike it, even if you call it plucking. Definitely a "string-percussion" instrument before it got degraded to a glissando machine in the modern orchestra. (actually, I guess "glissando machine" would also count as "percussion".) In the orchestra it is most often grouped with percussion and other odd instruments such as the Celesta. (my 2 cents.) Asni (of www.asni.net) (Btw "chordophone" is just Greek for "String Instrument". :-) ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.246.16.235 ( talk) 12:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm reverting the article back to my 16 Dec revision because Purple Arrow's 17 Dec revert doesn't make sense to me. An-gabhar, I moved the early-European information in the Origins section to the Political Symbol section. It was misleading - there isn't one "European" harp - and the information about Irish coinage belonged in the Political Symbol section. Dreamyshade 05:51, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The harp as we know it today most definitely has it's origins in ancient Ireland where there was a great tradition of harping well over 1000 years ago. We just cannot airbrush these origins away and refer to mere political symbols. An-gabhar
Harps date from 5000 years ago, though. The Irish/Celtic harps certainly originated in ancient Ireland, and that's probably where the European harp tradition started. How about a second Origins paragraph like:
The harp probably developed independently in many places. The European harp tradition seems to have originated in ancient Ireland over a thousand years ago.
Later, somebody could add information on the origins of harps in different places. Dreamyshade 22:06, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In this article, the celtic harp is strongly overrepresented. The harp definitely did not originate in Ireland (maybe the European harp did). There are pictures of harps from old Egypt. Harps are widespread in Africa (it is necessary to include more of that in the article). The title of Kubik, Gerhard Zum Verstehen afrikanischer Musik, Aufsätze, Reihe: Ethnologie: Forschung und Wissenschaft, Bd. 7, 2., aktualisierte und ergänzte Auflage, 2004, 448 S., ISBN 3-8258-7800-7 shows a picture with a harp player from the Tassili mountains in the Sahara. This picture has been dated to about 800 - 700 b.C. I don't know if the harp is of Asian or African origin, but it is definitely not a European invention. In Africa, one finds a possible line of development starting with hunting bows used as Musical bows and continuing with Musical bows with resonators (like the Berimbau of Brazil) to bow harps, so the harp might well be of African origin. It might also have been invented in Asia and spread into Africa via Egypt. Nannus 19:50, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know of the types of harps that have little or no metal (like copper) on them? I am allergic to Nickel or mixed metals with nickel on them and I wanted to learn how to play the Harp ( had to change my guitar strings because of this and as far as me tuning my own piano: out of the question.) Thanks!
sorry sorry sorry that ended up in the wrong section! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.246.16.235 ( talk) 12:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Krozo 18:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this article will clear up a few things about the Irish or Scottish harp origins, Its a historical fact that the Gaels came to Scotland from Ireland in the 4th centuary after the Romans left Britain and both Irish and Scottish cultures (pretty much the same culture if you ask me) have influenced each other, even today. But there were other celtic peopels in present day Scotland too, one of these being the Picts.
In Scotland, the images of triangular harps appeared first about the 9th century, on the east coast, in Pictish stone carvings. Later carvings are found further west, and show a gradual development toward the advanced form of the oldest surviving Gaelic harps, which date from the 15th century.
Pictish harp carved on sandstone cross at Dupplin Castle, Perthshire. Late 9th or early 10th century. After J. Romily Allen, Early Christian Monuments of Scotland, Edinburgh, 1903, fig. 334B
"In Ireland, however, images of David carved on the high crosses (10th century) sandstone cross at Durrow Abbey, Co. Offaly, Ireland) show quadrangular instruments, possibly lyres. The earliest Irish images of a triangular harp do not appear until later: in metal, on an 11th century reliquary , and in stone in the 12th century."
Therefore Ireland could not have invented the triangular celtic harp, because of its use of the lyer at this time and its spread through non-Gaelic culture of the Picts to the Scots.
The oldest term in Irish for the Harp is the "cruit", crom-chruit, the gaelic Irish called the Picts the Cruit or Chuid. This also may be a link to the origins of the harp.
Until you come up with (factual) archaeological proof, then stop second guessing. I have asked experts in both the national museums of Scotland and Irelands Trinity college, both say the same. The triangular harp common to both Scotland and Ireland originated with the Picts on present day Scottish east coast and spread west and eventually to Ireland.
You are right though harping has existed in Ireland for over a thousand of years, but the non-pedal, triangular style celtic harp of today originated in scotlands east coast, so we just cannot airbrush these origins away too.
Also read these articles on the web:
http://www.silcom.com/~vikman/isles/scriptorium/harps/harps.html
http://www.alisonvardy.com/harp-info/medieval-harp-history.htm
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce082202.html
and
http://www.clarsach.net/Bill_Taylor/traditional.htm
If you have anything to add feel free. - User:Celtic harper 16:30, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
A really bad emotional post. I'm English, and a harpist, so no ax to grind! That carving that is being referred to, well it cannot be Pictish inspired. If you look at the bottom of the carving you will see Irish knotwork, also it is a Christian carving, that means the Irish (known as the Scotti) must have converted those that made the carving. Anyway carvings really account for very little. There is much more evidence in Ireland of the harp, and this dates from 600 AD, I really can't put it here, too much space needed. Sea horn 20:26, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get into a debate on so called "Hiberno-Saxon" art, that requires a thesis all of it's own. It's a very convenient term for many purposes. As far as I can see, it is Irish knotwork, and it is a Christian carving. The Gaels were the Irish in the time-frame you mention. You are picking and choosing again, and presenting your own view as fact. Really we could fill up this page and many more with this discussion, and it wouldn't be very fair to the Harp page, or to the 'Harp, talk' page, so I rest my case so that others may contribute. Sea horn 18:31, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, I am not claiming that the first triangular harps were produced in Ireland, even the most enthusiastic Irish writers won't claim that, they are not as arrogant as that. That been said, the first historic evidence of the triangular harp comes from Babylonia, where one was found in circa 1920, and a very nice looking harp indeed. It dates from about 2500 BC. Other figures with triangular harps have be found in the Cycledes islands near Crete, these date from about 2500 BC. I have the photographs of these items, but I believe they are copyright, so I cannot post here. Sea horn 01:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The article says, David played a ne'vel (a type of string instrument) which was identified with a lyre. Is this a mistake? Since most scholars identified David as playing, the lyre-like Kinnor (Kin-nohr'). See: wiki: kinnor ( [3]) ([www.harrariharps.com/]) "In about half of the 42 occurrences of kin·nohr′ in the Bible, the translators of the Septuagint rendered it by the Greek ki·tha′ra." - Insight on the scriptures, volume two, harp.-- Anaccuratesource ( talk) 22:22, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Let's get something clear, the Dupplin cross is not the only Pictish representation of the clarsach. It is depicted on many Pictish stones, the dating of some perhaps very early. This clarsach was part of Pictish musical culture, and there is no reason to think they imported it from the Irish or Scottish Gaels, other than later affinity that the Irish have for this harp. The NPOV assessment is that the Picts had the clarsach, others had it too. Linking these by cause and effect is purely speculative, although it is interesting that the earliest Gaelic word for the harp is almost identical for their word for a Pict. Also, it should be made clear that the Picts were probably making use of the Gaelic language from an early date (the evidence that the Pictish kings spoke Pictish is nil BTW). The inscription on the Dupplin cross lists the name of a Pictish king (Causantín mac Fergusa) in Latin with Gaelic orthography; two languages were used in Pictland to write inscriptions, Latin and Old "Irish". So the potential for transmission was high. Irish sources also list something called the "Pictish metre", a poetic form of Gaelic originating in Pictland which was probably accompanied by a musical instrument. The form was notable, and it is possible that it came into Irelan with the clarsach ... but like I said, this is speculation. - Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) File:UW Logo-secondary.gif 16:22, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
To clear things up, pedal harps are not necessarily concert harps for example a Salvi Daphne, which is a student harp, so I tried to reword some things in that area. Also, where it mentions fingers used, I changed "last finger" to "pinky" because not everyone's last finger is a pinky. Last, I added Cindy Horstman and Ray Poole under the list of jazz harpists. They're both insanely talented and I'm way jealous! Elevenfans ( talk) 03:37, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, Sea Horn this page is for intelectual discussion only, and is not skewed for nationalistic reasons, ranting, or sword waving. It is you who has put this label on the posts, so I take great offence to this.
Im saying this as an Irishman born in Northern Ireland of Scottish and Irish (Donegal) extraction and I’m very proud of both sides of my heritage (which is both sides of the devide). So with that in mind please get your facts right before you point the finger of malcontent at me. My post was emotional because someone (perhapse you?) delieted my findings on the talk harp page, not once but six+ times. So much I complained to the wikipedia main page and posted my findings on the talk harp page to at least discuss them.
Secondly, I approve of credible empiricle data, facts speak louder than conjecture and second guessing, therefore I will answer your post, with facts in mind, and not with anyother agenda, and will comment if certain facts are misinterperated. I have found from credible sources backed up with pictorial data.
The point we’re getting at is that not all celtic culture should have exclusively come from Ireland. That type of thinking is demeaning to the modern welsh, the decedents of the Picts on the east coast of Scotland, and the ancient (Brythons and Picts, who have no voice to defend themselves). My bias is purly in favour of the Picts and not the Gaels (who include the Scots the Irish and myself).
Sea Horn wrote on the 01:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC) “The first historic evidence of the triangular harp comes from Babylonia, where one was found in circa 1920, and a very nice looking harp indeed.”
The Babylonian harp you speak of is displayed in (metropolitan museum in New York cc1920), it is squarer in shape and not characteristically Celtic in design. The Babylonian and Greek harps are actually classified as lyre harps or "lyres". These are vertical harps with 2 arms or more arms and began appearing in ancient Sumaria/Babylonia by 2800 BC. They are not Clarsach in shape and is more like a lyre. Therefore your reference here is obsolete.
Sea Horn wrote on the 01:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
“Regarding Irish harps, Heccataius, a Greek geographer describes singers in Ireland accompanied by stringed instruments which appear to be harps. These instruments used a scale, and instead of letters, the different notes were named after trees, that was 500 BC.”
Yes, the primitive Celts in Ireland seemed to be very musical as seen from the writings of Hecataeus, an Egyptian historian who lived about 500 B. C. Although his actual witnessing of the events are sheer conjecture, and second guessing at best. Of Ireland he also writes;
" There is a city, whose citizens are most of them harpers, who, playing upon the harp, chant sacred hymns to Apollo in the temple."
Archaeologically there is no evidence of a city in Ireland at that time or for that matter to suggest a temple to Apollo is flippant. He states that the instruments appear to be harps although the instruments he was used to were lyres and not clairsach’s as the celtic harp was not yet invented.
Sea Horn wrote on the 01:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The "Clairseach", was in common usage, it had 29 to 60 strings, with about 30 being the most common and they had fasteners called "ceis", for easy scale change. In 612, St. Gall's school of music was founded by the Irish harper Cellagh.
The first use of the word Clairsach in Scottish and Irish documents are from the 10th centaury till the 19th centaury. The document he states as having the word Clairsach in the 600's must have been translated wrongly. The Irish harper Cellagh is taken from the Irish myth cycles etc, and should be treated as such. Again these documents were translated in the 15th century when the clairsach in its modern definition was in use and would have had 30 strings. So I don't think you've done your research.
Sea Horn wrote on the 01:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
“There are numerous references to harps and harpers in the "Annals of Ulster", and these go way back beyond our timeframe. In the year 544 a meeting of harpers is recounted in the Din Seangus. Circa 600 AD”
Compilation of the chronicle now known as the 'ANNALS OF ULSTER' (which covers the period 431-1540) was begun in the late fifteenth century, under the direction of one Cathal Óg Mac Maghnusa, who died of smallpox in 1498. Up to 1489, the original compilation was the work of a single scribe - Ruaidhri Ó Luinín. Other hands have made additions in margins and spaces. Sourced from (Daniel P. Mc Carthy, Trinity College, Dublin)
Therefore the usage of the term Clairsach is obsolite because of its translation in 1489 A.D. The data is flawed due to contamination and bias towards the Celtic harp of the time, and is no indication of the instrument they used. Later carvings do show a Lyer and no Clairsach untill the 11.00's.
Sea Horn wrote on the 01:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC) If Christianity took 800 years to reach the Picts, surly the harp didn't take 4000 years.
After the fifth century, most Picts converted to Christianity, and most of their carvings reflect this change; many of the so-called "Celtic" crosses dotting Scotland are in fact Pictish stones. They were not immune to the Christian pill so to speak, as their southern Brythonic neighbors in Strathclyde were already becoming Christian at this time. The earliest Brythonic language reference dates from just before St Augustine set foot on Britain, and the poems of Aneirin's “Y Gododdin” (in present day Edinburgh) bear testimony to the fact that Christianity was by then long established amongst the native British celts.
Although Columba gets the lion’s share of credit for bringing Christianity to Scots, there were missionaries before him. The first known bringer of the Christian Faith to Scotland was St. Ninian. Like Patrick, he was originally a Briton, who dedicated a church at Whithorn in 397, which is increasingly regarded as the cradle of Scottish Christianity.
And lastly if the old Irish word for the harp was the Cruit then why did the Gaels deem it necessary to call the Picts by this. In short its definition of their race or a cultural aspect to describe these non-Gaels. - User:Celtic harper 12:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
If you didn’t second guessing then I would not feel it necessary to rant. The proof you have given is inconclusive. Celtic knot work is not exclusively Irish as seen in the Sutton Hoo treasure hoard and was noted by Calgacus. You talk about the Dupplin cross 830 AD being the only evidence we have. This is interesting, as any Irish stone pictorial evidence dates from the 9th to 10th centuaries. The later stones show an east/west migration from a non-Gaelic society to a Gaeltachta.
The so called written proof you have given is flawed by translations, second guessing and similar cultural biases. As Calgacus said you haven’t made a case at all, and you are bias towards the archaeological data,and blinded by your own nationalistic reasons. Yes, harping did exist in ancient Ireland. I have never disputed this. But the celtic harp may not have originated from there. Irish evidence be it pictorial or from written sources is so far inconclusive, and is post Pictish in nature. Your argument towards the Pictish stones being of Gaelic origins are insulting to the carvers as the ancient Picts were masters of stone carving, which is evident by the Brochs and Neolithic settlements so far discovered.
Not only did the Picts have to deal with the Romans, they also had their homelands taken away by the Irish Gaels, seeking lands beyond their own. So not all interactions were peaceful. Influence is a two way process good or bad. I’ll leave out the ranting if you drop the hostility towards anything celtic which is non-Gaelic in culture. User:Celtic harper 18:00, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I broadly agree with Sea_horn's analysis concerning the triangular harp. The 'Dupplin harp' is not a true triangular harp, it is really more bow shaped and lacks the T-pillar of the modern triangular harp. These harps were common in the middle east thousands of years ago. The 'Maedoc harp', Ireland Circa 1050 AD, complete with T-pillar, is really the first true representation of the triangular harp as we know it today, and obviously survived because of it's metal construct. Bluegold 13:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I have to disagree with both of you;
Really to be fair the celtic harp belongs to both the Irish and the Scots or the Picts, regardless of who had it first, as they are Gaels and celts. Because we have never physically seen one of these (8th, 9th and 10th) centaury harps, all we can do is speculate on an instrument that has evolved from ancient times. It’s all down to the original artists interpretation/skill etc in carving the monument in stone or later in metal.
Sea horn, saying that the Scots are trying to take the celtic harp for themselves or their own nationalistic tendencies is bordering on the ridiculous. The celtic harp was the national symbol of Scotland from ancient times to the 16th centaury. So even if they wanted to claim the harp back as their own they can. As for the harp being exclusively Irish, well its still the welsh national instrument too.
Considering that the Pictish carving and the metal Irish one is separated by 300 years and that thin metal work is a lot easier to carve than a huge block of stone your argument for the T-piller is inconclusive. The pictish carving could have had a T-pillar and the artist wasn’t that good, or the Irish artist was better at his metal carving.
As an afterthought, the Babylonian harps are not classified as true harps, but harp lyres. As far as I can find the Pictish instrument is classified as a triangular harp. Until you all hunt in a bog for an original instrument the juries well and truly out. whats all the fuss 19:01, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I have deleated some of my content as Calgacus insists on editing his former postings. Sea horn 03:06, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
- Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 13:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Here is an actual photograph of a Babylonian harp discovered by Leonard Wooley circa 1920. This is a triangular harp and it dates from about 4500 years ago. Oh Calgacus, you do rant ever so much about the Picts (who left no history or language), you are so selective in what you want to believe, and you are stating those beliefs as facts. By the way, I am English. You seem to have a hang up about Scotlands Irish roots. There is the evidence! Now, what do you say to that? Will you rubbish the evidence again? Sea horn 20:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem with your view of history, that's up to you. I wrote, and this is my belief from some years of reading on this matter, that the triangular harp came from the Middle East to Ireland by at least 500 AD, or even by 500 BC, and later it came to Scotland with the Gaels. If I have any problem about what you wrote, it is this. You rubbished almost everything I wrote, you denied that a Babylonian triangular existed and you used some of what I wrote, to my horror, to make an attack on the history of another country. I see you didn't address the Babylonian triangular harp in your last issue. Sea horn 17:53, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Aliases have been used. Sea horn 03:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Both of you:
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy: There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Do not make them. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that you may be blocked for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thanks, please keep the discussion civil. -- Craig Stuntz 12:56, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
First and foremost empirical data is important here, as suggested by the mediator from wikipedia. If there were Irish stones pre 9th centaury with triangular harp reliefs, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Notice I use the word discussion, and I would be fiercely defending the Irish position or another carving for that matter.
Sea horn, your pictorial data for the triangular harp, is somewhat different from the one I have found, one with Sir. Leonard Woolley holding the instrument. Although when I say holding I do mean it in the (broadest possible sense). What he is holding is a plaster cast of a harp/lyre or as its more commonly known “the Harp of Ur, although it is more commonly called a lyre. The original harp/lyre rotted away some millennia ago, so it’s not the original instrument and Sir Leonard Woolley poured plaster of Paris into the imprint.
Your picture omits the characteristic sound box with distinct calf/bull decoration. In this picture the instrument does have this relief. So baring that in mind, the picture I have here is the original interpretation Sir. Leonard Woolley found.
If the picture fails to load or is too small, click on this link at your perusal; Calgacus if you could load this picture I’d be grateful as I’m not that good with computers.
http://www.scottishstudies.com/920oorclub.htm
http://www.lyre-of-ur.com/pdf/BBCNews.pdf
The harp/lyre clearly shows a sound box and four distorted arms, this instrument is classified as a lyre because it’s not triangular in shape. The confusion arises (as far as I can see), when people look at the instrument and include the supporting pillar as part of the soundbox. The wood must have warped over time and the plaster poured into the hole. A true harp would never have this.
Other types of vague triangular shaped harp/lyres have existed, although these can’t be classified as a true triangular harps in the celtic or concert examples we have today. For more information look at;
http://www.smith.edu/hsc/museum/ancient_inventions/hsc21b.htm
They were played on the knee or held and strummed with the fingers. The Irish instruments up till the 11th century show this style of instrument. The Pictish instrument is much different; it stretches from the player’s ear directly to the floor, with the strings running vertical and the soundbox running the full length of the harp, from ear to floor. This is more characteristic of the celtic harp of today, than the harp of Ur or the Irish reliefs.
Yes triangular "of sort" harp/lyres have existed, I don’t dispute this I welcome this evidence. But the Pictish instrument is quite different. If my data is wrong then we’ll discuss the evidence.
Lastly, I value your comments positive or negative in this discussion, but bear in mind keep this conversation clean and we all can discuss the data as an intellectual rather than a nationalistic, demeaning, or confrontational manner. Celtic harper 09:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
No, I disagree with your analysis.
The Greek harp/lyre is not a true harp, that’s my point. I added it so I could show you where your confusion lies. Its rounded chest shape at best, triangular of sorts but not a true harp.
As I have said before; “One of the key points of the Pictish harp is the sound box runs the full length of the instrument and that the strings diminish in size and increase in tone up the scale of the instrument. It is more characteristic of the modern clairsach and concert harp. It is the first instrument with a T-pillar. This is why its distinguished from lyres and harp/lyres, and is the oldest credible record in existence.”
The Greek instrument has none of this. Its strings are all the same length and at best it has a strumming sound. All I have proven is that a triangular lyre or harp/lyre existed in antiquity. It is about as far removed from a clairsach as you can get. As for the argument for the lyre of Ur as proof, it’s a plaster cast of a bent lyre. Its box shaped, the reconstruction by academics has proves this.
Celtic harper 11:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually King Kennith MacAlpie, was of both Scots and Pictish ancestry. His control of the Picts may have been aided by the ancient law of matrilinier succession through which he had reason to challenge for the Pictish Crown.
“Sir Leonard's harp is a cast of the imprint of the original, it is still better a representation of the subject than a stone carving that came 3000 years later.”
Yeah right! A stone carving won’t warp or rot away. The simple matter of the argument is that this cross pre dates anythin that can be found in Ireland. As for the argument anbout the the Clonmacnoise cross, it’s a lyre just like the Greek one I included. Triangular or otherwise.
Yes we are back to square one or be it a triangular one and my original point. The first true representation of a celtic harp originated in the picts and not with the Gaels.
Celtic harper 12:00, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
You just don't get it guys. The triangular harp came from the Middle East, and that's now proven photo of the Babylonian harp. I have rarely come across such nationalistic arrogance. Highland Scottish and Pictish culture enthusiasts have to do some serious reflection on the origin of Highland Scottish tradition. Trevor Roper in his research suggests that the Highlands of Scotland were culturally deprived, and that the literature of the Highland Scot was a crude echo of the Irish literature. Trevor Roper claims also that the bards of the Scottish chieftains came from Ireland, and that the Scottish bards were the "rubbish of Ireland" who were periodically cleared from Ireland and deposited in that convenient wasteland, Scotland. Also, according to Trevor Roper, while Ireland remained culturally an historic nation, Scotland developed, at best, as its poor sister. He further claims that Scotland did not develop an independent Scottish tradition. (Roper, pp. 271 - 293.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.210.233.135 ( talk)
Lets just pause for a second and admire the works of the great Oxford don, Hugh Trevor Roper. His article reports on Scotland after the reformation and discusses about the fabrication of writers in the 1800s to claim Gaelic culture all to its own. Such authors have been disproved and no historian takes them on fact. We have never said this. We argue that not all celtic culture could possibly have come from Ireland, just because you think this to be the case unknown poster!
Roper has an axe to grind, but his comments are irelevent to this discussion. Oh yes, he’s also the man who authenticated the 60 volumes of Hitlers fake diries, lol. . . enough said!
Celtic harper 12:00, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
207.210.233.135's comments are the only kind of nationalism actually displayed in this thread. It's a case of nationalists accusing everyone else of nationalism in order to be nationalistic themselves. As to Roper, the article referred to is notorious in Scottish historiography, and no professional historian takes Roper's comments seriously. Roper was the kind of guy who liked the anti-Celtic racism of guys like John Pinkerton; and, once again, calling the Scots "Irish" because they spoke Gaelic dialects is like calling Czechs "Poles" because they speak western Slavic dialects. Anyone who does it is either trying to knock Scottish nationality or promote Irish nationalistic sentiments. Gaels - Scottish or Irish - call and always have called their language "Gaelic", never "Irish"; medieval Gaels used the term lingua Scotica (Gaelic language) for the Gaelic language, never lingua Hibernica (Irish language). - Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 18:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Sea horn you wrote
“My basic premise is that the triangular harp was not first used by the Picts, (who left no language or history), but originated in Mediterranean area and Middle East. Later, I believe that the harp was brought to Alba (now Scotland), by Gael (Irish) settlers in the first millenium AD.”
The main point of my first posting, was to examine the data from the pictorial evidence in the British isles and Ireland. The Pictish harp as far as I can see is unique different from the lyres and harp/lyers that come from Europe, the Middle East or anywhere else. These harp/lyres (including the babylonian harp/lyre) are not classified as a true harps (in the modern or clarsach definition). If a triangular lyre/harp did come from Babylon then it must have moved through the Greek and Roman empire. The Pictish design is radical and fundamentally different from anything before, and is a bench mark.
The main crux of the argument with ireland is that people assume the celtic harp originated there, because its a nationalistic symbol and I do see why some feathers are being ruffled in this “talk harp” page. The harp is a symbol and means a lot to many people.
As for the Gaels bringing the lyre to Alba, and the Picts. The Romans could have brought the lyre to Britain. It is quite possible that the Roman lyre, was transformed into the unique Pictish harp due to the trade that existed between the Britons and Picts north of Hadrians wall. The Pictish harp is different form anything else and is unique.
Sorry I forgot my password and have signed in here to varify my post. Celtic Harper 23:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the big problem with this page is the lack of Irish imput, 'Celtic Harper' and 'Calgacus' have a very strong Scottish POV. As for myself, my grandmother is a McDonald, whether of Irish or Scottish origin I do not know, so there is Gael blood flowing through my veins too, therefore I may also be biased, and one could accuse me of having a Gaelic POV. Celtic Harper, in your last addition, you assume that the only connection these isles had with the Middle East was through the Roman invasion, well that's not so. Have you studied history? Also, the Clonmacnoise carving predates the Gael/Pictish carving by 150 years, and all of your theories are based on the Gael/Pictish carving. So you talk quite a lot about possibilities, but you dismiss other possibilities and evidence quite offhandedly.
Sea horn
14:45, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Sea Horn you say that their is not a lot of Irish posting here. As I have said before, I am Irish and have Scottish blood, I am also Gael, as all my surnames are of Irish and Scottish origin. I dont see your point at all.
Celtic Harper 23:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Feel free to look at this for a true definition on the Clonmacnoise instrument and as I have said before it is not a true harp.
Harbison, P. (1992) The High Crosses of Ireland, An Iconographic and Photographic survey, 3 volumes, Bonn: RGZM.
Harbison1992, 4, argues that the reference to a High Cross at Clonmacnoise is a reference to this cross carving S2 - David playing his lyre.
Alasdair Ross 'Harps of Their Owne Sorte'? A Reassessment of Pictish Chordophone Depictions "Cambrian Medieval Celtic Studies" 36, Winter 1998.
“Many of the stones show various type of lyre, e.g the one shown here from Clonmacnoise. These instruments are not harps; they have a flat sound box with a bridge and tailpiece to hold the strings, like on a fiddle, but instead of the fiddle's neck and fingerboard they have two arms holding a yoke which supports the strings. This type of lyre is relatively well known at this early period from many parts of northern Europe. There are even some surviving remains of instruments from the 6th and 7th centuries, found in royal burials in England and on the continent, e.g. the remains from Sutton Hoo and Prittlewell .”
Graeme Lawson, An Anglo-Saxon harp and lyre of the ninth century, in "Music and Tradition", ed. Widdes and Wolpert, Cambridge 1991,
“However lyres are very different instrument from harps, and it is unlikely that triangular harps evolved out of these lyres.”
Graeme Lawson and Alasdair Ross, argue that such instruments as depicted on the Clonmacnoise and the Sutton hoo examples, could not have evolved into the Celtic harps. The Clonmacnoise carving you state so fiercely as direct evidence, would be the "round topped" type of lyre and according to these academics, the triangular harp could not have evolved from them.
Celtic Harper 17:40, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
From one crazy Scotsman to another. Hey Calgacus, I see you have a history of attacking this page. Was not The Dagda an old Pictish god in ancient Ireland. Surely that would support your passionate theory that the Picts invented the triangular harp, and did you know that Ireland had Picts too. Also, the ancient name in old Gaelic Ireland for a lyre was Cruit, please check your history. .. MacPhersonAndy 03:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I don’t really think Calgacus is attacking this page at all. His passionate theory as you say is actually backed up by empirical data and current theory surrounding the origins of the celtic harp. Experts say no triangular harp can be found in pre-10th century Ireland or the Gaels of Scotland for that matter. The evidence of the Dagda having the harp in written record is no clear indication of the type of instrument used. The common misconception is that just because the written record states a harp, doesn’t really mean that the harp was a triangular harp.
Roslyn Rench, The Harp (1969): Its History, Technique and Repertoire. Garden city press Ltd. Letchworth marked, Hertfordshire, UK.
“Lyres are often confused with harps in literature. The word psaltery, lyre and harp are often confused with one another and both come from the word to pluck a stringed instrument. The best we can hope to do then is note what instruments are depicted in their art and ignore the written record.”
She also states that the appearance of a column made the advent of the modern harp first appeared in Ross, Scotland in the 8th century.
Written records are not clear enough, they are not accurate and do not depict the instrument used. That’s why the experts don’t take the Irish myth cycles seriously as the data is flawed. Furthermore there are no harp depictions in Ireland till the 10th century.
Stokes (1954): Music and letters. Vol 35, No4 (p287- 293).Oxford University Press. Quote:
“Among the ancient Gaels were musical composers called bards, who accompanied their own singing on lyres.”
J.Keay & Julia Keay. (2000): Collins Encyclopaedia of Scotland, Clarsach, p171. Harper Collins publishers. Quote: “The earliest descriptions of a triangular framed harp i.e. harps with a fore pillar are found on 8th century Pictish stones. Pictish harps were strung from horsehair. The instruments apparently spread south to the Anglo Saxons who commonly used gut strings and then west to the Gaels of the Highlands and to Ireland. The first credible written record of the word Clarsach or (Clar Shioleach) willow board, first appears in the writings of Giolla Brighde Albanach a Scottish bard who lived in the 11th century.”
It appears that the Irish and Scottish Gaels used the lyre and that the Pictish harp spread to them. I agree with you though, the ancient name in old Gaelic for a lyre was Cruit, but you forgot to mention that the Old Irish Gaelic for Clarsach was also Cruit.
Celtic Harper 20:00, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I really had to laugh at the citations, citations, citations bit. That’s what wikipedias all about, credible empirical data. The experts agree that the Picts innovated the triangular harp as they have studied this field for many years. I have dismissed the Irish sources because the experts in this field do and there is no credible archaeological data. Oh, I don’t have to prove to you that I’m Irish, I know I am. I take it on face value that you claim to be Scottish regardless of your views. As for the “so many books knocking about and half of them not worth quoting let alone reading” bit. Well you seem to have no problem with those sources when it suits. To cut to the chase the empirical data backs up my point.
Celtic Harper
20:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys, this is not a forum! An-gabhar 18:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
That last comment MacPherson really had me laughing. Actually if youd read the post I said;
"Sorry I forgot my password and have signed in here to varify my post. Celtic Harper 23:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)"
I lost my password and had to log in with a different address. No cloak and dagger tactics here mate!! LOL.
Celtic Harper
20:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Tosh! - MacPhersonAndy 17:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm, not gonna continue this article's revert warring. Myself, Celtic Harper and a few others have shown why blanket statement's about an Irish origin for the Celtic harp are not supported by evidence. At the very least, the article should be balanced. The statement "The European harp tradition seems to have originated in ancient Ireland over a thousand years ago. In Irish mythology, a magical harp, Daurdabla is possessed by The Dagda." is the main culprit, but the referenced section about the possible Pictish origins below contradicts this. I deleted this controversial section, but others like to reinstall it. The article is POV and biased. The tag is replacing the revert warring. - Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 17:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
More Tosh! I have no input into the Harp page, much of it is yours! - MacPhersonAndy 17:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
It's you who is reverting, not me. MacPhersonAndy 18:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I kept something in that you deleted without commentry, not so much a mere revert! You have a lot of input into that page. Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim. MacPhersonAndy 18:36, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually the two bits of information that Calgacus refers to (re Gaels and Picts) are totally mutually exclusive and one doesn't contradict the other. Also they are at different timeframes. An-gabhar 20:09, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I really think it's a bit OTP to incert the POV, and I urge it be removed at once!!!!!
LOL this is all crazy! Celtic Harper 01:10, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Well I disagree with you, stop puting words into my mouth. An Gavhar is right this is not a forum! Celtic Harper 01:10, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed a personal attack on me from this talk harp page. Whatever I have said has been backed up by empirical data. If you think I’m a know it all, then engage in this debate rather than bringing my character into disrepute! Personal attacks are not part of wikipedia. As for these empty and unproven claims, I have backed this up with studies and data. Its not my problem if you have a problem with this.
Celtic Harper
01:10, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
It has been discovered on WP:RFCU that Bluegold ( talk · contribs), MacPhersonAndy ( talk · contribs), An-gabhar ( talk · contribs), Bel air ( talk · contribs), and Raspitin ( talk · contribs) , No More POV Please ( talk · contribs), River run ( talk · contribs) are all socks. Bluegold ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been engaging in sockpuppetry to further the wikipedian strength of his POV on this and other pages. Moreover, Sea horn ( talk · contribs) is a suspected sock, but may be just, if Bluegold was telling the truth on the investigation page, Bluegold's work colleague trying to help him out. - Calgacus ( ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 19:57, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
The article says she is a harpist with some orchestras and a teacher. Is she notable enough to warrant mention? Deepak 16:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that a very important part of the subject has be forgotten: the harp among the Breton people in the past; the action of Breton musicians, specially Alan Stivell to promote the Celtic Harp (and thru it the Harp in general) in the world, and also in the idea and creation of the Electric harps. 86.214.107.184 18:40, 25 May 2006 (UTC
I changed "cross harp" to "cross-strung harp" in order to avoid confusion with the harmonica. -- Hesperides
This article is biased and very eurocentric. It focuses on a certain type of Harp (Irisch/Celtic/European) and covers other haprs in a subsection "Other harps around the world". The title of this section shows that the POV of the article is biased. The article's POV is European and from here it looks at othere things arround the world. The contents of the "other types"-sections belongs up! Wikipedia should have a NPOV, so the global view must come first, then the special cases may be covered. The structure should be something like world->Africa/Asia/Europe and then subsections on special harp music cultures (or separate articles, if this becomes too long). The celtic harp is not the root of this tree structure but one of the branches. There are many harp music cultures arround the world which should be covered in equal depth. For example, the harp music of the Azande in the Central African Republic (see for example Kubik, Gerhard Zum Verstehen afrikanischer Musik, Aufsätze, Reihe: Ethnologie: Forschung und Wissenschaft, Bd. 7, 2., aktualisierte und ergänzte Auflage, 2004, 448 S., ISBN 3-8258-7800-7) or the unique Enanga music of Uganda deserve just the same attention. So the whole article must be rewritten. I am also astonished about the level of ranting that a topic like this can provoke! If you keep cool and keep the NPOV-directive in mind, it is very clear what has to be done about this article. Nannus 20:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I am doing a music assignment for school. I wish to know more about the celtic harp, where it is used, construction, people considered experts on the instrument, history and the popularity of the instrument. If any one knows anything about it...... I would also like to ask if you play the instrument yourself. Please help me, I'm stuck!
You can go to www.alan-stivell.com where you find many elements about the main Celtic harpist. 15:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)~
A musician does not = a musical instrument. This leads to confusion. This redirection should be undone. --caroldermoid 17:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
It says in the article under this title that these harps are known as Irish harps not cláriseach in Ireland, so why is "Wire-strung harps (clàrsach or cláirseach)" the heading if cláirseach is the lesser used term? Everytime 01:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Given the great number of different types of harp in the world, and the complaints here that this article is Euro-centric, I would like to propose that this page be radically restructured to make it work like for example keyboard instrument with a brief historiy and overview, and then links off to separate pages on all the different regional/historical types of harp. I'm not a wiki expert - can we start a draft version somewhere? StrumStrumAndBeHanged 18:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I've been considering editing this page a little, but only because I thought the description of the modern concert harp's pedal system was not entirely clear, and I certainly don't want to buy in the ethnic wars that (to my surprise) this topic seems to evoke; I was just thinking about whether I might rewrite this description of the pedals, but have contented myself with expanding and clarifying it slightly.
But I noticed that the same description was found in both this article ("Harp") and in the article "Pedal harp". For now, I have modified both copies the same way - but it does bring up the question about the supposed bias of this article, because it does seem to treat the modern concert harp in disproportionate detail, and also the much shorter "Pedal harp" article is ostensibly about the same harp, with some content duplicated.
I thought it may be a bit confusing to have some detail about this harp in one article, and some in the other, and it brings to mind this thought: Why not shift some of the finer detail about this harp to the "Pedal harp" article, and let this "Harp" article give a description of this harp in just about the same level of detail as it treats the other harps? Duplicated content (such as the description of the pedal system) would go in just one article, whichever one was considered most suitable for that level of detail.
It would be a bit fiddly and time-consuming to do this properly, but I think it's worth considering. I do not consider myself expert enough on the harp to do it myself; but if some expert could do this, perhaps it might satisfy both sides in the dispute that's been going on about the claimed bias of the article.
Just my thoughts, anyway. M.J.E. 06:20, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Although the Camac and the Truitt levers are well known and work very well, by far the most commonly used type is still the Loveland. They are standard on Dusty Strings and, for some years now, Triplett harps. Several other makers offer them as options. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.231.138.38 ( talk) 11:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The section "European-derived harp" begins:
Most European-derived harps have a single row of strings with strings for each note of the C Major scale (over several octaves).
I would have thought that, technically, "C Major scale" should read "C-flat major scale", because that is how the strings are tuned. But the thing that stays me from correcting it thus is that I only know this to be a fact of the modern orchestral harp, and I do not know if it is true of other European-derived harps.
Should it be changed? - or should the wording be changed to suggest that the strings are not assigned to this or that particular major scale, but something more along the lines that the notes are tuned to the letter-names of a diatonic scale, the exact inflection of those notes depending on the pedal settings?
I'm thinking about changing it, but feel a bit diffident about doing so; if it were referring specifically to the modern concert harp, I would change it without hesitation.
Perhaps someone knowledgeable about European-derived harps in general could suggest the best way of handling it. But I do feel the reference to C major at that point as it currently stands is quite misleading. (The later description of how the harp pedals change the tuning of strings does clarify this a bit later on; but I feel the article should not be misleading even in the short term or even in a brief summary or overview.) M.J.E. 06:38, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I am going to take harp lessons after the holidays and was wondering if y'all knew which harp (lever or pedal) would be easier to play, or if both are just as challenging. I am leaning towards the lever harp.
sincerely - MurtaghxMisery ( talk) 16:44, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
How about an illustration that shows the "anatomy" of a harp? The opening paragraph mentions things like "soundboard", "resonator". It would be nice to see a drawing with these labels. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.53.197.12 ( talk) 03:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The French method does not use "expressive gestures", that's the Salzedo method; the article had it wrong and backwards! I fixed it, but I am annoyed that it ever got that way to begin with. Blah, blah, blah! </rant>- Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 20:27, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
To unsigned editor 93.107.77.126 I have noticed your undo of my edit on the Harp Page, firstly your edit was unsigned and you state that all Scottish/Pictish carvings have come from Irish manuscript images pre-9th century. I'm afraid the only credible evidence of an Irish triangular harp image comes from the Madoc book cover so I will need a cited reference of an Irish image to credit your comment. Also the edit you have added to cites Pictish stones reference includes an Irish manuscript as the oldest European evidence for a triangular harp. This reference has been taken out of context as the cited source does not include ANY Irish source images as there are none. Until you source a credible image from a pre-9th century source I will place a citation needed tag on your edit. You may however be getting mixed up with the Lyre being confused with the Anglo-Saxon Harp or Harpa as the cruit in Ireland which was used in Ireland until the 12th century. Some experts even think the triangular harp HAS no connection in Ireland till the 11th century. I will need empirical data to remove the tag. Regards Celtic Harper ( talk) 23:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
User 93.107.77.126, thank you for your comment. I am aware and have read the article by Alasdair Ross to that all the Scottish (and by implication all the Irish) figures were copied from foreign drawings and not from life. I myself have also included that reference in the
clarsach page so you have taken my edits out of context. Furthermore Ross cites his only evidence to support this comes from the utrecht palster which is 20 years younger than the Pictish harp stones and only arrived in the British isles some 100 years after its completion. So again there is no Irish source from this.
I would also point out Alasdair Ross is quoted as saying in Pictish Chordophone Depictions. Alasdair Ross in Cambrian Medieval Celtic studies, 36, 1998, esp. p. 41. The harps depicted in Pictland are unique, and do not look like those depicted in later medieval Scotland or Ireland. So it looks like he contradicts himself, and in both cases does not state Ireland as the outside source of the Pictish instrument, so this does not back up you claims of an Irish providence for the carvings. Furthermore, it seems to me you are trying to Gaelicise the Picts as the only possibility reason of there being a triangular harp like in their culture. Also the assumption the Picts were a blank receivers is nil and not supported in empirical research. I would like a citation for the Pictish stones not being of Pictish manufacture by an expert for your own pov statement. The statement you put about the St John's Crucifixion Plaque is rather obscure as any empirical evidence I have seen, nor does the cite the plaque.
Further from being motivated by nationalistic tendencies I am motivated by citations and credible empirical sources. I have researched Irish contemporary sources and you may find the following interesting although contradictory to your own views.
The Ancient Music of Ireland Edward Bunting (2000) Curier Dover publications (originally published in 1843). From an Irish perspective, three distinct forms of lyre are evident; round top lyres as seen in the crosses at Ullard shows a quadrangular instrument with no forepillar.
Recent introduction from Scotland to Ireland of the triangular harp or Clarsach. in History Literature and music in Scotland 1700-1560 Russell Andrew McDonald 2002 University of Toronto Press, Arts Medieval.
Celtic Music History and Criticism Kenneth Mathieson 2001 Backbeat books p192. Only two quadrangular instruments occur within the Irish immigrant context on the west coast of Scotland and show the use of an Irish lyre. From this data it was apparent the triangular harp was present in Scotland before Ireland and the earliest harps used in Ireland were quadrangular ecclesiastical instruments.
The Story of the Irish Harp its History and Influences Norah Joan Clark (2003) North Creek Press. The characteristic instrument of the Irish Celts was a U-shaped lyre and There is good evidence the triangular harp originated in Pictish Scotland rather than Ireland. The first true representation of an Irish triangular harp appears in the St. Mogue shrine.
Music and the Celtic other world: from Ireland to Iona, Caren Ralles MacLeod (2000) Edinburgh University Press. Many such crosses in pre-Norman period in Ireland what is striking is that there are no triangular framed harps at all. No representations of triangular framed harps as we know it.
Pictish three sided harp replaced the Irish style quadrangular instrument. Divided Gaels: Gaelic Cultural Identities in Scotland and Ireland c1200-1650. (2004) Wilson MacLeod Oxford university Press.
Interesting as they don’t source an Irish providence for the triangular harp within a Pictish context. And most strikingly of all other articles discuss the triangular harp was first appeared in Ireland at the start of the Anglo-Norman invasion.
The Ancient Music of Ireland Edward Bunting (2000) Curier Dover publications (originally published in 1843).
The Musical Times and Circular (1956) JASTOR Grey University of Michigan. Celtic Music History and Criticism Kenneth Mathieson 2001 Backbeat books p192.
Fintan Vallely, ed (1999) The Companion to Irish Traditional Music New York University Press.
A New History of Ireland, prehistoric and early history. Daibhi OCoinin (2005). Oxford University Press.
Daibhi OCoinin is an Irish author and also states the triangular harp is not of Irish providence.
So no, your own personal theories regarding the influences from Ireland to the Picts are not backed by empirical sources. Unless you can come up with credible cited sources for your comments and views, I think your editing is being influenced by your POV and patriotism, and not called for here at Wikipedia. Regards Celtic Harper ( talk) 13:00, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) It sounds as if there has been disagreement on this question outside of Wikipedia. If I may make a suggestion, perhaps that disagreement that should be detailed briefly in the article (with citations). For instance, if Author 1 said x, let the article say so, and if Author 2 disputed what Author 1 said, let the article also say that. While the article is already long, it could stand another couple of sentences. We're clearly not going to settle the question here, so just let the fact that there's a question be reflected in the article. Rivertorch ( talk) 17:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Although the harp seems to be and probably was in Scotland earlier than the rest of Britain it isnt encouraging that people here are dismissing roper by actually citing people like devine and fry - how on earth can their Anti-Scottishness even begin to be compared. Devine even uses the lowland clearances to play down the highland clearances but not because he wanted to suggest they were iffy but just to applaud the bottom feeding institutions that did both and defend the same crap from being criticised by Scots.
THAT much lunacy just to support a HARP = = the institutionalised neutered anti-english neurotic 'pictish' garbage writing above are wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.52.38 ( talk) 07:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Why are the strings of the harp described as perpendicular to the soundboard? Perpendicular means a 90° angle. In the illustration those strings join the soundboard at an acute angle of less than 90°. Caeruleancentaur ( talk) 23:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
hi am just looking 4 inspiration 4 a competition and was wondering if u cud help the idea is 2 creat a mascot 4 finn harps fc ani ideas??????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.13.94 ( talk) 17:12, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I could not come up with a better name so please change it to something better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.75.154 ( talk) 23:30, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
"French composers such as Claude Debussy and Maurice Ravel composed harp concertos and chamber music widely played today"
My memory may fail me but I don't remember any harp concerto from either Debussy or Ravel. In fact, the only harp works I can come up with for these two are Debussy's Chansons de Bilitis and Sonata en trio, and Ravel's introduction and allegro. Could someone tell me if I'm missing something obvious? 128.194.39.250 ( talk) 04:48, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
The Debussy concerto is the Dances sacree et profane, which is one of the most popular concertos for harp. It was originally written for chromatic harp but Renie transcribed it for pedal harp very shortly after its premiere. 128.164.117.176 ( talk) 18:45, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Could we get a better source for the harp being considered a percussion instrument than one harpist/instructor saying it is? It seems as logical as a guitar being a percussion instrument. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 14:20, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
The standard range of the concert harp is C♭1 to G♯7, not C♮1 (or D♮1) to G♮7. I feel that this needs correction. -- Number Googol ( talk) 02:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
I just wanted to find an article on the modern orchestral harp, so I entered the word "harp" and got to this page of course. I then had to look right down to find the marvellous *section* "concert harp" on the modern orchestral harp, with description of how it works, diagrams, photo.
If I enter "concert harp" or "orchestral harp" in wikipedia I get taken to "pedal harp". This page duplicates to a large extent the good section in this article, and in my opinion not as good as the section I mentioned.
There is duplication and incompleteness. There could be a really good article on the modern orchestral harp (with the section mentioned as a starting point), but the material is distributed between "Concert harp" and "Pedal harp" articles.
The main picture at the top in both articles shows a nice medieval harp but the one next to it was only "modern" about 150 years ago. It looks like Queen Victoria used it. P0mbal ( talk) 22:05, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
I am considering adding a cleanup tag to this article, or trying a major clean up. There are a number of big sections that duplicate content on other pages (e.g. concert harp, clarsach). There is also a large amount of non-encyclopedic trivia especially under concert harp.
I am proposing to re-arrange the categorisation, so as to give a short succinct overview of harp traditions in each region of the world, with links to their specific pages. Also to remove anything more than this and place it onto the relevant specific pages.
Also to shorten the introduction section and make it more general and less western-classical in content and approach.
If anyone has any thoughts or opinions on this please let me know before I start on it.
StrumStrumAndBeHanged ( talk) 14:03, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Just noting that today's featured article in German Wikipedia is about harps in ancient Egypt ( de:Harfner_(Altes_Ägypten)), which ha sno parallel article heer. Perhaps someone is interested to translate some content for use on this page here. -- Pjacobi ( talk) 07:30, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Nabla (instrument) redirects here. Nabla states: "A Hebrew stringed instrument after which that symbol was named, see harp". There should be something about this thing in Harp (or in Nabla (instrument)). -- Tomdo08 ( talk) 15:45, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Guitars, lyres, and kitharae are not zithers. There are four basic subgroups under the Chordophone family: harps, zithers, lutes. and lyres. Guitars go with the lutes, and kitharae go with the lyres. I cleaned up the Terminology section to fix this. 67.206.165.1 ( talk) 06:02, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
I agree that the ancient, Celtic, (folk?) and pedal harp pages should receive an overhaul, with the main "Harp" page serving more as a general overview; I wouldn't mind contributing, especially to the section on pedal harps, and can provide some assistance with references. Actually, I'm willing to clean it up on my own if necessary, though it's always nice to have assistance with an ambitious project.
Does anyone have any valid suggestions, or was it simply a convenient page to stage arguments over where the darn thing originated? As a student harpist myself, I'm fairly annoyed at how bad this page is; the harp has to put up with enough misconceptions already. Has anyone realized that the only photos in the "pedal/concert harp" section are NOT of a modern pedal harp, but of an early, experimental model and a folk harp? It's an embarrassment.
So, in essence; does anyone even care anymore? Stelarinna ( talk) 02:32, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth ( talk) 02:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Being a harpist of the French method I have chosen not to make any changes to the article regarding Technique (specifically the paragraph regarding Salzedo). However I feel the paragraph desperately needs editing to remove bias towards the Salzedo method. This section portrays the French method as a stuffy outdated technique and paints the Salzedo method as the modern and therefore superior method of playing. Both methods are equally viable for harpists, as technique is individual to the player. The paragraph is heavily in praise of Salzedo and is not objective. If another harpist can see their way to writing an unbiased Harp#Technique section they would be making the article more informative for prospective students and enthusiasts. 14.201.0.119 ( talk) 23:40, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Well this is the general Harp article, not the pedal harp article, so surely a section on technique should equally cover all kinds of harp technique equally: African, Asian, south American, Irish, etc. - this article should be a general overview of different types of harp from around the world, with links off to their specific pages, not loaded up on technical detail on specific regional or cultural types such as the Western orchestral pedal harp. To be honest, harp techniques around the world and through history are so diverse I don't see how a general "Harp" article can possibly have a section on "technique". StrumStrumAndBeHanged ( talk) 21:05, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
I've just made some amendments re pedal harps. I've added information re the missing pedal mechanism on the lowest C&D strings and (on most harps) on the highest G string. The pedal harp mechanism is complicated enough, so this information usually gets left out when discussing how the pedals work, but that can lead to ambiguities re the harp's range. Ideally I would like to replace the range illustration used here (C flat to G sharp) with the one used on the pedal harp page (C natural-D-natural to G natural) as a) we don't normally include scordatura options on other string instrument ranges and b) the illustration used on the pedal harp page has the benefit of pointing out that there is a missing semitone between the lower C and D strings however you tune them - but I see that there has already been discussion on this page re the range illustration, so I have left it as it is. I've used Inglefield and Neill as a reference.
I've also added some information re the use of the fifth finger under Modern European and American Instruments, with references.
I've changed the mention of the upper middle to upper strings being made of nylon to "either gut or nylon" but I can't find a reference for this. However, all my non-wire strings are gut, right to the top, and if you order Bow Brand strings, at least, you need to specify either gut or nylon for the upper registers.
I've been relatively bold re the technique section. I agree with the comment above re Salzedo bias, and I've cut out details of his biography, his playing and compositional style and harp designing etc, which don't really relate to technique, and added some examples of his theory. I've also removed some bits from the French technique part - the thumb is not really low relative to the hand - it's still kept well above the rest of the hand - it's just low relative to the Salzedo technique. I've also removed the reference to musical choices, which seems unfounded and inappropriate. I haven't been so bold as to remove the section entirely, although I have some sympathy with StrumStrumandbeHanged's point above. However, given the rancour that occasionally exists (particularly in the US) between different schools, it's likely that people might approach Wikipedia looking for information. Mohntorte ( talk) 01:10, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Mandanabeygi:Wikipedia Chinese translation "Origins Of Harp" Persia is not mentioned.Seems like "the Persian harp of Perspolis/Persia in Iran " is not translated at all,and "File:Harp-Sassanid.png|Ancient Persian harps carved in stone" is not attached also.< http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%B1%8E%E7%90%B4>.维基百科(英文)上提到的是“竖琴出现在古波斯”PERSIA-IRAN伊朗<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harp> 该文还有足够的照片和历史资料证明竖琴是古波斯(现在的伊朗)的乐器。and also on chinese free encyclopedia website called baidu "Persia/Iran" is not mentioned as the origin of Harp,which I wrote to them and hope it would be added to the article and it will be edited as soon as possible.Mandanabeygi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mandanabeygi ( talk • contribs) 13:01, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
The illustration for this section appears to include black (or very dark) text on a black (or very dark) background. Completely unreadable. Since the image appears to be a computer generation, would someone care to change the text to /white/ (or some other lighter color) so that it can actually be seen? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.92.174.105 ( talk) 23:45, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
To the person who added the contribution on the Tamil harp (or any other person who would happen to know Tamil): the contribution uses two different transliterations for the word யாழ் (harp) namely yaal and yaazh (that is, they transliterate the letter ழ் in two different ways namely 'l' and 'zh'). This can be confusing for people who do not know Tamil. Please make up your mind. Pick one or the other. Thank you. Signed: Basemetal (write to me here) 09:23, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Section 6.3 ought to be moved. It doesn't make sense to leave it in the "Modern European and American instruments" section. It should be moved to the historical part, namely "Development and history". Please state any objection here. Contact Basemetal here 15:00, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
For what it's worth, it seems to me that the fourth paragraph of #Folk, lever, and Celtic instruments reads like an advertising piece promoting Allan Shiers' Teifi semi tone.
“ One of the attendant problems with lever harps is the potential loss of quality when the levers are used. The Teifi semi tone developed by Allan Shiers is a development from traditional mechanisms and nips up the string with two forks similarly to a concert harp. The semi tone is double locking for a full clear sound and does not wear the string. It is machined from solid brass and hardened steel and is adjustable by an eccentric roller to suit any gauge of string. In addition, the whole unit can be moved up or down to affect perfect pitch and string alignment. The lever arms are coloured for ease of note recognition and two sizes are made to suit treble, mid and bass. ”
-- Kevjonesin ( talk) 12:45, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
This article has gotten into a pretty sorry state, though I can see where a number of editors have jumped in to make some needed improvements. Should we list here some ideas for how best to structure the article, and then dig into getting it fixed? Here are a few suggestions of mine. Feel free to add to the list and sign with three "~" tildes.
It might be useful to have a comprehensive "Classification" section to list all the types and subtypes of harps (and those that have "harp" in the name but aren't considered harps). "Terminology and etymology" has some of this, the lead has some, and some are in the various other sections. What does everyone think? Facts707 ( talk) 17:10, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
looking for names of harps pictured with cherubs
thanks in advancr---- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.200.245.62 ( talk) 10:20, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Do you mean cherubs or angels? Vorbee ( talk) 19:53, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
Need a section identifying typical string weights & tensions and resulting lengths for needed notes, which results in harp's shape. 71.230.16.111 ( talk) 02:16, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
In the Types of harp section,can i add the yazh as a type of harp,as it even says that it is a type of harp on this article? Simulator-master ( talk) 08:22, 12 February 2021 (UTC)