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Is Infowars really considered a reliable source?
Exactly.............the word 'AGENT' is clearly the one used in the Fox News segment. Loftus never uses the word informant. At least, the article should read Agent/Informant or as you suggest Operative.
I have a problem with the word 'informant' in this sentence:
As a fact Loftus use the following terms 'double agent', 'British intelligence plant' and 'working for british intelligence'.
Being a master mind (the guy who conceive and plan an operation) and at the same time being an informant does not make sense. The bombings supposedly originated from this guy, so it must be assumed that he had complete information. If he was an informant he would have saved himself the trouble of executing the bombings by just telling MI6 about his plans.
Perhaps he did but we just dont know. Then the term 'informant' would be qualified and a new section named 'MI6 foreknowledge' should be added under the 7 July 2005 London bombings page. On the other hand if he did not tell MI6 in advance, then the term 'informant' is misleading, not factual and not qualified.
However changing 'informant' to 'double agent' (a term used by Loftus) together with a link to the corresponding page does not make things less confused. That would mean that Aswat first had been an MI6 agent who then secretly changed loyalties to al-quida without telling MI6.
But this is contradicted by the fact that MI6 continued to protect him against Scotland yard and other organisations after he was exposed as mastermind (the same pattern as when the American Justice department protected him on request of the British when he was wanted for setting upp terrorist training camps in Oregon).
The crucial question is of course if Aswat planned the operation in the capacity of Al-quida operative, or in the capacity of MI6 operative. Common assumptions will of course 'know' that he did so in the al-quida capacity but this conclusion as shown leads to contradictions.
MP and ex-cabinet member Michael Meacher says:
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9115,1566919,00.html
To conclude:
Because Aswat was still protected after being exposed as a double agent it seems that the correct term should be 'agent provocateur' or simply 'MI6 operative'.
Any comments?
Yeslove 15:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I have removed some unsourced, and some unreliably sourced material under our policy on biographies of living people. Please do not restore it without including citations to reliable sources. Tom Harrison Talk 17:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
claim | excision | notes |
Subject was an MI6 operative | not supported by source cited |
|
|
slanted; uncited |
|
John Loftus accused MI6 of protecting Subject on Fox News | not a reliable source |
|
Subject's extradition to the USA was approved | no such article found in Lexis/Nexis |
|
Subject's ID papers found in Afghanistan | Unprotected Haroon Rashid Aswat |
|
Anyone can put up a web page that "purports to contain a transcript" accusing anyone of anything. Unless it is a reliable source, it means nothing. We do not collect and aggregate unsubstantiated gossip, or assemble innuendo to support a point. There is absolutely no way we can repeat that unless a reliable source says it.
The story in The Sun includes a lot of constructions like "is said to have," and "was thought to have been." While that does not inspire confidence, we could probably use it to support the statement that "His family say they lost touch with him years ago when he left to fight in Afghanistan." Conceivably we might say something like "According to The Sun, he was thought to have been killed in Afghanistan...". But absent a source for who thought so, any other coverage about it, and any explanation of why that is significant, I don't know why we would. And of course we cannot use the notoriously tendentious construction, "X claims..., however Y notes...".
"Well, what about that transcript I found?" Please remind me where it is hosted, and who says it is an accurate transcript. "Could it have been a clever forgery? Possibly. But who would go to all that trouble?" Lots of people, especially conspiracy theorists. Tom Harrison Talk 20:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
In support of his extradition, I could find no such article (by Lexis/Nexis search) in the LA Times or the Times of London. Other sources to support this are available, like this from the BBC. [1]
It's possible the article in The Sun could be used to source something, if suitably qualified. For anything controversial, I would rather see it supported by another source, like a wire service report. In an article about a living person, a construction like "X claims, however Y notes..." is not a stylistic quibble; it is a grossly slanted presentation favoring Y. I would be surprised if you were defending what was there: "Although his family claims that years ago he disappeared to Afghanistan or Pakistan, he was monitored entering Britain at Felixstowe, Suffolk in late June 2005 and then departing via Heathrow hours before the attacks." Further, it was uncited. Certainly the article in The Sun would not support that statement, even if recast in neutral terms.
Globalresearch.ca is no more reliable than infowars.com. Conspiracy sites routinely reference and copy each other to form a walled garden. I did a Lexis/Nexis search of Fox News transcripts from 2005-07-26 to 2005-07-31 and found nothing with Loftus. There were 5 that discussed Aswat, none of which said anything about MI-6. Tom Harrison Talk 02:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
For the record , User:Tom harrison, an administrator, has stated he will block me from editing, if I add material to the Haroon Rashid Aswat article that he thinks violates his unstated interpretation of WP:BLP. For the record I dispute knowingly breaching WP:BLP, or any other wikipolicy. For the record I think I deserve a clearer, more specific, explanation of where I can find these breaches. For the record I think I deserve a clearer, more specific explanation of what is going to bring me what would be my first edit block.
Since this administrator hasn't been clear about which edits to this article will bring me an edit block I am going to list some quotes, and sources here. The only reason I am not directly adding this material to the article is the concerned administrator's less than clear threats.
For the record it is my opinion that this administrator has considerably overstepped his authority. All of this material had been in the article for months. I am at a loss as to why the administrator is unwilling to trust the normal process of discussing concerns on the talk page, rather than jumping immediately to page protection, and threats of blocking. Even if, for the sake of argument, I am unknowingly violating {{ blp}}, or some other wikipolicy, surely the fact that this material existed in the article for months means that this is not an urgent crisis that requires rash action, rather than a dialogue? Geo Swan 02:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Lexis/Nexis is available free at many libraries in the US. Sources have to be verifiable. I tried to verify the sources in the article, and failed. The only place I have been able to find that material is in the post on www.forum.militaryltd.com. That is not a reliable source.
It is not up to me to prove a source is unreliable, it is up to the person who wants to include the material to show that the source is reliable. If you want to cite infowars.com, or globalresearch.ca, you need to demonstrate that they are reliable sources for what you want to say, and that the material otherwise satisfies WP:BLP.
You asked above, "Could it have been a clever forgery? Possibly. But who would go to all that trouble?" I replied, "Lots of people, especially conspiracy theorists." You asked about extradition. I said I could not find the source that was cited, but noted that "Other sources to support this are available, like this from the BBC."
You continue to seem outraged that I will, if necessary, block you to prevent you from adding poorly-sourced controversial material about a living person. If you are going to work on articles about living people and continue to do the good work you have done, you might want to become more familiar with the policies, or see about improving those policies. If you are determined to personalize this, then further discussion between us will probably not be productive. You might consider asking for a third opinion, or posting on one of the noticeboards I mentioned here: [2]. Tom Harrison Talk 13:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
"Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked."
Does anyone have the original LA Times url that went dead? LA Times articles usually show up in web.archive.org, if I am not mistaken. - Crockspot 17:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
An administrator who focusses on biographies that he thinks violate WP:BLP has repeatedly stated he will block me from editing, without further notice, if I cite sources that he thinks are unreliable. But he has also repeatedly ignored my requests for him to clarify how I could tell if a source was one that would trigger a block. I would either like him to do that -- or to withdraw his warning.
I reintroduced coverage of John Loftus's assertion that Haroon Rashid Aswat was a double agent who was protected by MI6 -- which seems like it is a key assertion that triggers this administrator's concern.
So I am going to state, for the record, this is a good faith edit. And I think, if this concerned administrator has an objection to it, he should try engaging in a civil discussion of his concerns here on the talk page, rather than jumping to using his administrator authority.
Cheers! Geo Swan 02:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
The first paragraph says he was extradited, the last paragraph (us extradition etc) ends only at the failure of extradition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.178.163.143 ( talk) 10:19, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Is Infowars really considered a reliable source?
Exactly.............the word 'AGENT' is clearly the one used in the Fox News segment. Loftus never uses the word informant. At least, the article should read Agent/Informant or as you suggest Operative.
I have a problem with the word 'informant' in this sentence:
As a fact Loftus use the following terms 'double agent', 'British intelligence plant' and 'working for british intelligence'.
Being a master mind (the guy who conceive and plan an operation) and at the same time being an informant does not make sense. The bombings supposedly originated from this guy, so it must be assumed that he had complete information. If he was an informant he would have saved himself the trouble of executing the bombings by just telling MI6 about his plans.
Perhaps he did but we just dont know. Then the term 'informant' would be qualified and a new section named 'MI6 foreknowledge' should be added under the 7 July 2005 London bombings page. On the other hand if he did not tell MI6 in advance, then the term 'informant' is misleading, not factual and not qualified.
However changing 'informant' to 'double agent' (a term used by Loftus) together with a link to the corresponding page does not make things less confused. That would mean that Aswat first had been an MI6 agent who then secretly changed loyalties to al-quida without telling MI6.
But this is contradicted by the fact that MI6 continued to protect him against Scotland yard and other organisations after he was exposed as mastermind (the same pattern as when the American Justice department protected him on request of the British when he was wanted for setting upp terrorist training camps in Oregon).
The crucial question is of course if Aswat planned the operation in the capacity of Al-quida operative, or in the capacity of MI6 operative. Common assumptions will of course 'know' that he did so in the al-quida capacity but this conclusion as shown leads to contradictions.
MP and ex-cabinet member Michael Meacher says:
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9115,1566919,00.html
To conclude:
Because Aswat was still protected after being exposed as a double agent it seems that the correct term should be 'agent provocateur' or simply 'MI6 operative'.
Any comments?
Yeslove 15:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I have removed some unsourced, and some unreliably sourced material under our policy on biographies of living people. Please do not restore it without including citations to reliable sources. Tom Harrison Talk 17:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
claim | excision | notes |
Subject was an MI6 operative | not supported by source cited |
|
|
slanted; uncited |
|
John Loftus accused MI6 of protecting Subject on Fox News | not a reliable source |
|
Subject's extradition to the USA was approved | no such article found in Lexis/Nexis |
|
Subject's ID papers found in Afghanistan | Unprotected Haroon Rashid Aswat |
|
Anyone can put up a web page that "purports to contain a transcript" accusing anyone of anything. Unless it is a reliable source, it means nothing. We do not collect and aggregate unsubstantiated gossip, or assemble innuendo to support a point. There is absolutely no way we can repeat that unless a reliable source says it.
The story in The Sun includes a lot of constructions like "is said to have," and "was thought to have been." While that does not inspire confidence, we could probably use it to support the statement that "His family say they lost touch with him years ago when he left to fight in Afghanistan." Conceivably we might say something like "According to The Sun, he was thought to have been killed in Afghanistan...". But absent a source for who thought so, any other coverage about it, and any explanation of why that is significant, I don't know why we would. And of course we cannot use the notoriously tendentious construction, "X claims..., however Y notes...".
"Well, what about that transcript I found?" Please remind me where it is hosted, and who says it is an accurate transcript. "Could it have been a clever forgery? Possibly. But who would go to all that trouble?" Lots of people, especially conspiracy theorists. Tom Harrison Talk 20:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
In support of his extradition, I could find no such article (by Lexis/Nexis search) in the LA Times or the Times of London. Other sources to support this are available, like this from the BBC. [1]
It's possible the article in The Sun could be used to source something, if suitably qualified. For anything controversial, I would rather see it supported by another source, like a wire service report. In an article about a living person, a construction like "X claims, however Y notes..." is not a stylistic quibble; it is a grossly slanted presentation favoring Y. I would be surprised if you were defending what was there: "Although his family claims that years ago he disappeared to Afghanistan or Pakistan, he was monitored entering Britain at Felixstowe, Suffolk in late June 2005 and then departing via Heathrow hours before the attacks." Further, it was uncited. Certainly the article in The Sun would not support that statement, even if recast in neutral terms.
Globalresearch.ca is no more reliable than infowars.com. Conspiracy sites routinely reference and copy each other to form a walled garden. I did a Lexis/Nexis search of Fox News transcripts from 2005-07-26 to 2005-07-31 and found nothing with Loftus. There were 5 that discussed Aswat, none of which said anything about MI-6. Tom Harrison Talk 02:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
For the record , User:Tom harrison, an administrator, has stated he will block me from editing, if I add material to the Haroon Rashid Aswat article that he thinks violates his unstated interpretation of WP:BLP. For the record I dispute knowingly breaching WP:BLP, or any other wikipolicy. For the record I think I deserve a clearer, more specific, explanation of where I can find these breaches. For the record I think I deserve a clearer, more specific explanation of what is going to bring me what would be my first edit block.
Since this administrator hasn't been clear about which edits to this article will bring me an edit block I am going to list some quotes, and sources here. The only reason I am not directly adding this material to the article is the concerned administrator's less than clear threats.
For the record it is my opinion that this administrator has considerably overstepped his authority. All of this material had been in the article for months. I am at a loss as to why the administrator is unwilling to trust the normal process of discussing concerns on the talk page, rather than jumping immediately to page protection, and threats of blocking. Even if, for the sake of argument, I am unknowingly violating {{ blp}}, or some other wikipolicy, surely the fact that this material existed in the article for months means that this is not an urgent crisis that requires rash action, rather than a dialogue? Geo Swan 02:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Lexis/Nexis is available free at many libraries in the US. Sources have to be verifiable. I tried to verify the sources in the article, and failed. The only place I have been able to find that material is in the post on www.forum.militaryltd.com. That is not a reliable source.
It is not up to me to prove a source is unreliable, it is up to the person who wants to include the material to show that the source is reliable. If you want to cite infowars.com, or globalresearch.ca, you need to demonstrate that they are reliable sources for what you want to say, and that the material otherwise satisfies WP:BLP.
You asked above, "Could it have been a clever forgery? Possibly. But who would go to all that trouble?" I replied, "Lots of people, especially conspiracy theorists." You asked about extradition. I said I could not find the source that was cited, but noted that "Other sources to support this are available, like this from the BBC."
You continue to seem outraged that I will, if necessary, block you to prevent you from adding poorly-sourced controversial material about a living person. If you are going to work on articles about living people and continue to do the good work you have done, you might want to become more familiar with the policies, or see about improving those policies. If you are determined to personalize this, then further discussion between us will probably not be productive. You might consider asking for a third opinion, or posting on one of the noticeboards I mentioned here: [2]. Tom Harrison Talk 13:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
"Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked."
Does anyone have the original LA Times url that went dead? LA Times articles usually show up in web.archive.org, if I am not mistaken. - Crockspot 17:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
An administrator who focusses on biographies that he thinks violate WP:BLP has repeatedly stated he will block me from editing, without further notice, if I cite sources that he thinks are unreliable. But he has also repeatedly ignored my requests for him to clarify how I could tell if a source was one that would trigger a block. I would either like him to do that -- or to withdraw his warning.
I reintroduced coverage of John Loftus's assertion that Haroon Rashid Aswat was a double agent who was protected by MI6 -- which seems like it is a key assertion that triggers this administrator's concern.
So I am going to state, for the record, this is a good faith edit. And I think, if this concerned administrator has an objection to it, he should try engaging in a civil discussion of his concerns here on the talk page, rather than jumping to using his administrator authority.
Cheers! Geo Swan 02:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
The first paragraph says he was extradited, the last paragraph (us extradition etc) ends only at the failure of extradition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.178.163.143 ( talk) 10:19, 9 March 2015 (UTC)