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[Added section heading formatting]
Harold Pinter, despite being a writer, seems to be the kind of person associated with / known after his interventionist stands on various issues. I guess his is an excellent case of an artist crossing the barriers of conventional analytical theories, and meeting life for real. So, this inter-connectedness must have created a unique discourse of dissent in contrast with the direct, polemical writings of people like Noam Chomsky. I would be grateful if those who have followed Pinter's writings and intellectual activism closely can enlighten me on this matter further. I am intrigued by how he has addressed the intricate isuue of human bondings in his 'Betrayal'. Rather than remaining silent about topics related to personal life, he has proven that it is better to address it, since it is, after all, a matter of perspective. The politics of an Individual's life and views has to be related to the time and space he/she inhabits. I would also like to know whether Pinter can be contacted by e-mail. Please do share your views on this, and if possible, mail me to suave25in@hotmail.com
[In a version of this entry] The notion that Harold Pinter once performed in the 1967 Doctor Who story 'The Abonimable Snowman' has has shifted from supposition to fact, as evinced by the reference to it here in the Wikipedia entry on him. I'm afraid it is not true, or at least Harold himself denies it. The actor taking the part of the monk Ralpachan was indeed named 'David Baron' and that was indeed the actor's name that Pinter used before fame as a playwright between 1950 and 1960. However, Pinter spent most of 1967 in New York overseeing Peter Hall's Broadway production of 'The Homecoming' and simply would not have been around to film the Doctor Who episodes that year. He had no connections with the writers or directors of the series or that story, and no interest in Science Fiction. He was also doing pretty well for himself at this stage, and had no need of acting work. The image of the character available on the BBC doctor who site does bear some resemblence to him, it has to be said - compare http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/photonovels/snowmen/three/11.shtml with the image of him from the 1966-recorded 'Basement' on his own website at http://www.haroldpinter.org/acting/acting_intv.shtml) but I'm inclined to believe him when he says he simply wasn't there. Mark Batty
The soundtrack of Doctor Who: The Abominable Snownmen was released by the BBC in 2001. The booklet states "Also worthy of mention is the actor playing Ralpachan: David Baron is in fact the stage persona of the playwright Harold Pinter". Hovite 10:26, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
AFAIK it's not possible to "decline a knighthood", since you are never offered one unless it is known that you will certainly accept.
. . . Harold Pinter, who noisily spurned a knighthood for political reasons when John Major was Prime Minister, but is now happy to become a Companion of Honour - a somewhat grander and rarer tribute given "for services of national importance". (Their numbers are limited to 65.) Pinter took pains to announce to the Guardian that he did not regard this gong as "having any political connotations at all" and assured his admirers that his radical firebrand spirit remains uncompromised in every way. Lest Tony Blair should derive any base gratification from his acceptance, Pinter spelt out its meaning several times in several different ways. "I will not be supporting the present Government." The tribute, he declared, was "an honour given to me by the country for a long haul."
Two questions here. Has he spoken or written against any other government or group? There are (quite unfortunately) many places where an oppression of people and the human right violation is common and it seems ridiculous that with the exception of Cuba, three countries written here that he had criticized practices democracy. Also, he is involved in National Secular Society. Shouldn't this be written here instead of "Personal life" section as well since involvement in that society is not really a personal issue? -- Revth 01:31, 14 October 2005 (UTC)'
He's known primarily as a playwright - so why are his plays not listed? Mandel 15:32, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
I removed the link to Ashes to Ashes because it links to a David Bowie song of the same title. Dark jedi requiem 08:01, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
On his website(www.haroldpinter.org), it claims The Birthday Party was published in 1957, not 1958 as this article says. As I believe his website to be correct, I will correct the error.
[I'm adding a cleanup tag on the article.] Dates on Pinter's website often tend to be dates of final composition and/or dates of first performance and not dates of first publication and/or dates of (film/tv) release. (Several sections of his website were compiled by research assistants tasked with such work and by his (multiple) assistants beginning in around 2000, when the website was launched. There are sometimes typographical and other errors in the sections.) Some works were published long after they were first written; e.g. his novel The Dwarfs. When not confusing, one tries to use those dates or clarifies discrepancies otherwise. Did some cleanup of this article. Added some citations and additional sources for verification and further reading. --NYScholar 21:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
MLA is inadequate for our purposes, especially for sources that are largely electronic and available online. There is a disconnect between your article text and what is quoted from what reference. Please see WP:CITE and Wikipedia:Template messages/Sources of articles/Generic citations for methods of citing these so that viewers can access the original source for quotes without having to seek it laboriously. --00:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
The above comment is unsigned. [It was perhaps written by User TJive.] Whenever possible and useful, the notes and references are hyperlinked and the formats all follow the style recommended by WP:CITE. (Please scroll through the whole article at Cite; the MLA style format information is linked toward the end of it.) --NYScholar 01:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Someone has been silently changing this article, removing formatting and other features that it has taken me a long time to add, without leaving any trace of those silent edits in the "history." The changes do not improve the article at all and remove important information from it. They seem to be some kind of vandalism. They may need to be reported to administrators.--NYScholar 00:17, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
If there is no point to them not being there (which isn't true; they take up useless bits of information and this is already a long article), what is the point in bitching about the fact that I took them out? As for asterisks, look here:
See any difference? I don't. So there's no reason to have them there either.
As for your other comments, I most certainly did provide an edit summary ("copy-edit, remove editorializing, place fact tags so that quotes in particular can be SPECIFICALLY sourced"), so I have no idea what you're referring to with either that comment or by saying that I have making "multiple silent changes" at once. You can edit the whole article at once. That's what I happened to be doing, because that's what needed done. Please review the citation articles I provided earlier. If I come back to this article tomorrow and nothing has changed about the NPOV and citation problems, I'm going to revert some of the changes as well as put tags back in. -- TJive 00:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
First of all, it's my business alone what I choose to "waste" my time on, and the fact is that extraneous spaces are not needed, are removed quite frequently, and that was not all I was doing with the article. I left a summary and I gave it; I didn't specifically mention spaces because that's covered under the concept of "copy-edit" and the fact that it's not a big deal in the first place. Why are you wasting your time and mine complaining about them?
As for Hitchens, "neoconservative" is an unnecessary pejorative for someone who does not describe himself that way; this is particularly so in light of your non-neutral commentary on how "reasonable" the tone of this, that, or the other comment is. As well, and as I stated already, simply mentioning a list or a name is not proper sourcing; it should be properly referenced with a good reference standard and must meet WP:Verifiability and WP:Notability criteria, e.g. not blogs, mailing lists, and self-published web sites. Please review these guidelines and policies.
Please also see WP:CIVIL. I am attempting to politely point you to policies which explain my edits and would help improve the article. It is my decision what level of involvement I choose to have with any particular article on this site. You do not own this article. When you edit, there is a message saying, "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it." I hope you understand that this applies to any article, regardless of your own personal level of contribution or interest in the subject. -- TJive 01:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
That was the point of reference and comparison and documentation before you started tinkering with it (and taking out the section heading (without there being any edit summary re: that, btw). No one is saying that the blog's opinion is any more than an opinion, but neither is Hitchens' (e.g.) opinion any more than just an opinion (his); that's why it is useful to describe its similarity to " neoconservative" views, btw (whether or not he accepts that that is what his views are). Hitchens may try to reject the label ( neoconservative) yet, nevertheless, he expresses views meeting the Wikipedia definition (as linked earlier[[which you removed] and here). Hitchens' viewpoint (which it is not up to him only to define, btw--not according to NPOV) is being cited in this article (now) only by way of example: not as the "final word" on Pinter's Nobel Prize; that's why it was outrageous to have this article include ONLY his single quotation (initially--before I revised it).
This is getting ridiculous. I don't know how familiar you are with Wikipedia customs and policies but I'm assuming your familiarity is not that great based upon your comments, especially in regards to the history. I am not "harassing" you. I didn't even comment until you made some further edits to the page that basically reverted some of my copy-editing. The only thing "harassing" is quibbling - repeatedly - about asinine matters like deleting extra spaces, or not changing an article over multiple edits with detailed rationalizations for every single one (that is why it's called an "edit summary" not an "edit detail" and why there are talk pages in the first place). I merely suggested that you use more generally accepted Wikipedia citation so that readers can see the source for the direct quotations - footnote styles that everyone is accustomed to and that Wikipedia desperately needs for credibility - and that is why I put in fact tags, so that they could be replaced with Wikipedia reference notations. That is it. You're turning this into a bizarre personal feud that I'm not interested in. At all.
As for blogs, I never once said that you were using blogs. My comment was in reference to your improper use of a mailing list as a source for criticism claims. I mentioned mailing lists, and yet you harped on the point of blogs. Yes blogs are acceptable, in a limited fashion, as external links sometimes and as reference points for blog-related articles. This is not such an article. Criticism and counter-criticism of Pinter should be cited from verifiable, reliable, and notable sources, per Wikipedia guidelines. A mailing list does not meet that criteria and is not encyclopedic. It should thus be removed.
You also need to treat material neutrally. Making political arguments, or using political epithets and pejoratives, is not acceptable. Statements which assert that an argument is "more reasonable" than another betray a personal POV and value judgment on a contentious subject. That is also not acceptable.
These are simple matters with very clear guidelines that you are not following or are not willing to understand. That I am pointing them out has nothing to do with you personally, and has everything to do with attempting to improve Wikipedia. Stop making this into something - everything - that it really isn't. -- TJive 03:51, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Here is a link to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, the general table of contents for pages offering guidelines in Wikipedia. Formats are consistent with discipline-specific style sheets and such style sheets are among those suggested for documentation formatting in Wikipedia. One has to examine each section and go to links in the sections for more specific guidelines, recommendations, suggestions, and related information. [update] --NYScholar 00:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
[added this section heading later--NYScholar 21:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)]
Deleted non- NPOV. See References for a selection of articles on Pinter's Nobel Prize and Nobel Lecture.
[editing conflicts have led to problems with adding replies to this Talk page; perhaps due to lack of space. (Jus could not get Wikipedia to save changes for most of time between this comment and next one.)] See history for what was attempted to be posted here earlier. Thanks.--NYScholar 05:55, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
It's taken me a while, and I'm sorry to have had to preview-save-return to correct so many typographical errors, but I've finally finished work on converting citations (mostly) to linked in-line (in-text) "Notes"; the expanded/reorganized References list includes those items and others referred to in the body of the article. I hope that this work has improved this article. [updated]. --NYScholar 20:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I've done some further cleaning up of this article, including the associated "Wikiquote" page. Please see talk there for explanations. --NYScholar 21:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC) [My preference is raw signature, no link; I've tried to delete the links above.]--NYScholar 21:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
The entire article uses MLA format consistently; you have stuck in hugely long dashes that have nothing to do with that or any format and do not match the usage of the format in the rest of the article, which is, correctly, "---." [In Wikipedia editing style, one can make it look like a shorter long dash: namely: –––.] --NYScholar 00:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC) [I restored my previous use of "Harold Pinter" as the author in the heading, so that repeating his name and using "---" is no longer necessary again. See "Cleanup" heading above and the cleanup tag on the article now relating to these problems. --NYScholar 02:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)] [Updated after further cleanup of "References." --NYScholar 21:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)]
I am about to bring you to the attention of arbitration for more than Wikipedia:3RR: for intentional and malicious harassment. Desist, or I will. At this point, you appear to me to be embarrassing yourself and Wikipedia. --NYScholar 00:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll have to restore the descriptions of books relating to the ISBN numbers etc. later; if you removed them, I haven't time to replace them there. They weren't ads; they were catalogue descriptions of the books for purposes of verification of the sources by those who don't have copies of the books (which I do have). I have referred to the actual sources themselves, not to just the descriptions. Obviously, you haven't read the content of the descriptions of the book and your (usual) kind of complaint is simply another knee-jerk response made without understanding of the relevance to verifiability and usefulness in knowing what the sources are actually about. The damage that you are doing to this article will take hours to correct, and, due to time wasted over your trivial bickering over Jacobs et al., I haven't time now to work on any of this. I've saved previous versions and will restore as needed later. --NYScholar 02:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed the remaining descriptions that another editor inconsistently left in the article. It's not worth my time to try to reconstruct what she deleted before, and I had provided them only for people's knowledge and convenience. I won't make that effort again. --NYScholar 05:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I have brought this article to the attention of administrators. While the changes made by SlimVirgin are being investigated, I have added a "cleanup" tag to the article as well. I dispute the accuracy of her very misleading claims about format and her changes to the previously-correct format. MLA format is the appropriate format to use for this subject. See Wikipedia:Citing Sources. --NYScholar 00:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
After having finished cleaning up others' errors and problems in this article over the past couple of months, over the past day, I have cleaned up the inaccuracies and mistakes that SV has introduced. (Though by now there could be more, since it's taking a long time to write these comments. It's been over four hours of work just since adding the message about the tag below! None of it had to be done, and I really object to what has happened to this article due to what SV did to it.)
For example, as my previous and current note to Billington's authorized biography of Pinter indicate (now restored), Pinter's parents were not "immigrants"; they were born in England. The source that SV added (Crown) has errors in it. One does not cite a secondary or tertiary source ("intermediate sources" according to Wikipedia:Citing sources and Wikipedia:Reliable sources) if primary sources are available. The official Nobel Prize website (already listed in the external links before and now) is a primary source of information about Pinter's Nobel Prize; it is what one should cite, not some newspaper article which uses online biographies of questionable reliability and sources like Wikipedia articles (which are often incorrect, as this one has been in previous versions) for information. The reason that I began working on this article was because I recognized how many errors it used to contain. Over the past two months, I corrected the errors.
SlimVirgin, who it appears to me knows nothing or little about the subject Harold Pinter other than what she has read in the article that I expanded in the last 2 months and in a few newspaper articles and websites (and perhaps other than the sources that I already linked), repeatedly made changes based on what I know to be sources that cannot be cited in this article. She introduced and continued to re-introduce factual errors from one newspaper article that is incorrect in what she paraphrases from it. (She doesn't give a quotation; I found where she got the material in that one source, and Pinter himself and Billington both correct it; Pinter's parents were both born in England; they are not "immigrants," so he does not come from an "immigrant" Eastern-European background. THEIR [parents] and HIS [grandparents], or his ancestors were, as the article said before SV changed it; "ancestry.")
SV has repeatedly re-inserted information that I deleted because I know that it is not documented in Billington's published book or in any other source already used in the essay or that can be used in the essay (given WP:Reliable sources. If SV has no source that she can cite authoritatively and reliably, and she does not add any citation to back it up, then she cannot add unsourced information to the article or add it back into the article after I have removed it (phrases, unsubstantiated "facts"). Such unverifiable informaton does not belong in this essay.
WP:BLP pertains to Harold Pinter and other living people that the article mentions. WP:NOR applies here.) Because this article deals with a living person and refers to other living people, after reviewing W:BLP carefully over the last several days in relation to the article on Charles Jacobs (political activist), I decided that one needs to be more sensitive in this article too, and I added the "BLP" tag to this talk page to indicate that need for caution. (There was negative unsourced misinformation contained in earlier versions of this essay inserted by earlier editors, which I removed early on. [Fixed link --NYScholar 01:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)]
I also revised and corrected problems on the Wikiquotes page.
I think that SV should not work any further on this article. It uses MLA style format which she doesn't "care about." She does not know how to construct the citations in the notes so that they match the reference format being used already in the article (MLA format or based on MLA format). That is the predominant format of this article: See WP:Cite for rationale to conform to it in subsequent changes in this article, so that they are consistent.
I am aware that with Pinter's winning the Nobel Prize, more and more people are seeking accurate information about him. That is a main reason why I spent so much time on this article and why, in the very-detailed note 2, I took this opportunity to correct erroneous or misleading details about his family background posted all over the internet.
Billington is Pinter's authorized biographer--his biography is based on extensive and intensive interviews with Pinter, it is scrupulously documented for the most part, and scholars and critics consider it the current standard authoritative source of facts about Pinter's life, as are Pinter's own later published and broadcast interview remarks, which this Wikipedia article now also cites as verifiable sources throughout and in the references. When Billington publishes an updated and expanded edition of his biographical study of Pinter and his work, this article can incorporate the new information as deemed relevant by future editors. --NYScholar 04:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Removed tag (at least for time being); will return to re-post it if future editors introduce more errors and problems.--NYScholar 07:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC) [re-added tag while working on further cleanup. After that, removed it. Will add again if necessary.]--NYScholar 12:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Warning to SlimVirgin (again). Brought to the attention of administrators.--NYScholar 00:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Renewed warning. SV's persistent re-introduction of previous errors through reverting to them is causing same problems. She is not knowledgeable about the subject, chooses unreliable sources of information about it to cite, and adds factual inaccuracies and other kinds of errors to the article without realizing it; when informed of these inaccuracies, she reintroduces them, without concern for the overall accuracy of the article. See the tag at the top of this page referring to WP:BLP and see WP:AD.--NYScholar 01:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I've put the References section in alphabetical order (per WP:CITE and every book I've ever read). The way they were laid out was confusing and made it hard to find anything; the whole point of the section is to make it easy to see, at a glance, who has been used as a source. Please edit in accordance with WP:CITE and WP:MoS. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 02:53, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Once again--see earlier warnings--you have created more problems. Apparently, you don't know how to alphabetize or the order of letters in the alphabet. The last time you changed the order, you mis-alphabetized. Now "there you go again." I suggest, once again, that you stay out of this article. You are wrecking other people's (especially my) hard work. Other Wikipedia articles do use single and double bullets (asterisks) to indicate works relating to works in reference lists. Apparently, you don't know that. You do not improve the article with the changes you make and revert; you weaken the article. You are not the only reader of this article, and you are not a bibliographer. You don't know or care about the format used in this bibliography (as you yourself have said), and, therefore, you are not equipped to edit (to "improve") it. Every time you change something, you make more mistakes.--NYScholar 03:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Before I saw this additional problem, I had just posted a WP:3RR repeat warning to Slim Virgin re: Harold Pinter on her user talk page. --NYScholar 03:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
There was a logic to the previous version of the References which, apparently, SV could not perceive. I suggest that she go back into the article and make the changes back to the way the References list was before she wrecked it. Let her get the headache.--NYScholar 03:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC) [Updated: As she never fixed the mistakes, I fixed them later. See my subsequent explanations. --NYScholar 22:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)]
"If you find yourself in a revert war, it is a good idea to ensure that the "other side" is aware of the 3RR, especially if they are new, by leaving a warning about WP:3RR on their talk page. Administrators are unlikely to block a user who has never been warned. If you report a 3RR violation here it is good form to inform the person you are reporting of this on their talk page and provide a link to this page WP:AN/3RR." (italics added). [I have not yet listed any of the 3RR warnings that I have made to SV on WP:AN/3RR.]
Once again: see WP:Cite and read all the material linked at the MLA Style sheet links. [See also W:Citation. --NYScholar 19:52, 7 August 2006 (UTC)] Go to MLA as linked by Wikipedia and via MLA to direct links to the MLA Style Manual etc., or, if one is in college, to a writing center which has the various bibliographical documentation style sheets. Wikipedia does not invent these documentation formats; it adheres to those already in existence. Read more closely.
In the case of this particular article on Harold Pinter, I volunteered my own time and effort to improve what I saw as an article which, before I began working on it, was filled with errors and needed development, especially use of Wikipedia:Reliable sources. [1]
Wikipedia users and editors need to educate themselves in the many discipline-specific styles of documentation. As a start (and it's just a start), read again WP:Cite, which explains the importance of choosing documentation styles consistent with the disciplines of the subjects of articles. When no consistent format has already been chosen for an article, as it points out, one should choose a documentation format style (e.g. MLA, APA, ACS, or styles given as examples--and only for illustration purposes) that matches the discipline of the subject and then follow it consistently according to the guidelines of the publications of the organization involved (e.g., MLA, APA, ACS) (online and print). [Updated]--NYScholar 22:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
See also W:Citation for further information about the various accepted general and disciplinary-specific documentation formats for citations in notes and lists of works cited ("References"). [I just added this link to discussion above too, for other Wikipedia users' information and convenience.] --NYScholar 19:52, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I have finished copy-editing and correcting this article (unless I find more errors later!), restoring the notes and references to MLA format consistent with the discipline of the subject (literature). Arbitrary changes by user SV, such as altering what was previously-correct punctuation, capitalization, and alphabetization, and removing "online posting" in the "References" created confusing inconsistencies in the format. A documentation style (such as MLA format used throughout this article) must be consistent and uniformly applied; lack of consistency and uniform application of style guidelines leads to confusion for readers, especially those readers interested in a specialized topic (e.g., Harold Pinter, 2005 Nobel Laureate in Literature) who are familiar with its documentation format and who know how to read and to understand it.
The current format of this article is useful both online and in print (when the article is printed out; printable version is an option in Wikipedia, and many Wikipedia users print the articles and read them offline).
Without accurate bibliographical information in the "References" and the "Notes," the article is weaker and less useful to the wide readership of Wikipedia.
As Wikipedia articles are "open source" and often copied as is and re-posted elsewhere (with requisite credit given to Wikipedia) and often translated into other languages and then re-posted, it is essential that the articles be accurate both in content and style, which includes consistency in both documentation and documentation format. Producing such consistency requires an eye for detail that not everyone has. If one is not particularly interested in such detailed copy-editing, or in the accuracy of punctuation, including capitalization, then there is no reason to involve oneself in such copy-editing. One is bound to introduce errors that worsen rather than improve the article.
To Wikipedia users/editors: I have devoted a great deal of time and care to trying to make this article accurate and free from error. If any major errors (not minor mechanical and typographical errors such as those involving stray punctuation or clear cases of misspelling) appear to remain, please post a comment about your perception of the error on this talk page. That way other Wikipedia users and I (if I see your comment) can consider the problem and discuss how to resolve it. If there is no significant problem, there is no reason to edit the article.
Please do not make arbitrary changes to the "Notes" and "References" or re-format them arbitrarily. Instead, please make suggestions for such changes and engage in discussion about them on this talk page.
I understand that people may want to add information about Harold Pinter to the article. If so, please post the information that you are interested in adding and the rationale for adding it, so that other Wikipedia editors can discuss such matters, especially if these matters might spark controversy. Participating in such discussion can result in feedback on the accuracy of the information and useful sources for verifying and documenting.
Before commenting on this page and/or before posting any information about Harold Pinter on this talk page or in this article, please read the BLP tag warning at the top, particularly the items linked in the tag. Thank you very much. --NYScholar 06:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC) (UTC)
[. . . .] The Nobel medal and each Nobel medal are trademarked and their images are both trademarked and copyright protected; see the copyright notices on the Nobel Foundation official website; I added a link to the Literature Nobel Medal webpage in "External links" in the article for those who need more information. --NYScholar 01:10, 15 August 2006 (UTC); updated --NYScholar 19:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Once again, I have deleted the Nobel medal image that another editor added after I wrote the above comment. There are clear-cut copyright violations in the posting of this image in Wikipedia Commons that have not been dealt with. If one clicks on the image, there is a clear reference to the fact that the image is marked for deletion due to copyright violations. See Nobel medal image talk page for updated explanation and quotations from the copyright notice of the Nobel Foundation. --NYScholar 19:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
A user added the Nobel Prize in Literature Medal image (now with a registered, copyright notice to the design as a caption that shows up when moving cursor over it with mouse) back into this article. Then a different user objected to its placement on the page as "horrible," resized it as a thumbnail, and moved it down. I've re-located the thumbnail image tag to the section about the prize (further down), where such an illustration (if permitted) appears more appropriate. (See discussions of potential problem of not getting written permission to do so and of "fair use" claims on the image talk page and other related article talk pages pertaining to the Nobel Prize if one wants more information.) --NYScholar 18:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Another user (SoothingR) has now deleted the Nobel Medal image from the article without any discussion on this talk page, claiming that it is not "fair use," apparently unaware of the extensive discussion of this issue in this talk page and the talk page for the Nobel Prize and on my own archived talk page, where an administrator reverted my own earlier attempts to question "fair use." Is this issue resolved or unresolved? Has Wikipedia yet heard from the Nobel Foundation's public relations administrator regarding this matter (requirement of written permissions for use of trademarked and copyrighted images of Nobel Medals throughout Wikipedia)? If so, what is the status of this situation? --NYScholar 04:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Explanation: Please do not revert to "Honours."
"Honors" is the Am. spelling and acceptable. Wikipedia redirects "honors" to "honours"; but there is no Wikipedia link being used in the heading. The article uses American spelling consistently. Changing one spelling introduces an inconsistency. British spelling "honour" is followed for the actual titles of the honors conveyed, as for quotations of them. Use of capital letters for such honors indicates the name of the title or honor or prize. It is acceptable in Wikipedia to use American spelling. American editors (like me) use American spelling. The nationality of the subject does not govern the spelling to be used. Many articles in the English version of Wikipedia on subjects of various nationalities use American spelling. --NYScholar 18:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
For more information, see the following Wikipedia article American and British English differences, especially the sections relating to spelling or orthography. Please be careful not to introduce inconsistencies of spelling into this article; the text of this article currently attempts to conform consistently with conventions of American spelling, American punctuation and quotation, MLA (Modern Language Association of America) usage. See WP:Cite, and other Wikipedia policies and articles that I've already linked to in earlier comments and replies. If in doubt, please review the conventions. (I've already addressed some of these issues in earlier comments and replies to others' comments and changes above in this talk page; so please read those too.) Thanks. --NYScholar 18:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
See also: English Wikipedia#Controversies for further perspective on the importance of consistency of conventions within the texts of Wikipedia articles: "The policy, however, is to prefer an appropriate form of English for articles of regional scope (e.g., Canadian English for subjects related to Canada) but otherwise to allow the use of any variety of English, as long as the variety of English is consistent throughout the text of an article" ( English Wikipedia#National stylistic conventions). An article on a Nobel laureate and world-renowned subject like Harold Pinter is of international (not regional or national) scope, and this usage of American English (as long as "consistent throughout the text of an article") is thus allowed. --NYScholar 19:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
So what if somebody took the time to revise the entire article into English spelling? Would you, NYScholar, insist in reverting it? (Not that I could be arsed to do it personally - this article got way past "human-readable" format long ago). 81.129.31.22 01:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
It is inappropriate for an anonymous editor to add (with erroneous heading format) as a separate section to what is already a long article the entire text of a letter signed by Harold Pinter and others. There are many, many letters of this kind that Pinter signs. Such letters are already mentioned in the section on his political activism. The material added is misplaced and should not be quoted in full in the body of this article. The entire text of the very same letter is already accessible in the note in the section on "political activism." Please read articles like this one more carefully before just adding material to it as the anononymous editor has done in this case. I've deleted the material entirely as it is already accessible in note 30, keyed to the section on "political activism." (I added the citation [though redundant] to the same letter published in The Independent; as the letter was distributed to the international media, it is published in many such venues, and it is not possible or necessary to list each occurrence of its publication.) --NYScholar 00:05, 27 August 2006 (UTC) [Updated link to note 30 as notes automatically re-numbered since first posting this comment. If note numbers change in future, please keep this in mind when searching for what is currently note 30. Note also that in current links, note number 30 reads as if it were note number 29; numbers in links are one digit lower than actual note numbers keyed to main article text.] --NYScholar 18:46, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Ongoing deletions of inappropriate and irresponsible insertions by anonymous IPs; e.g., User: 75.213.170.156 and User: 81.145.240.22. --NYScholar 09:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
There have been copyright/lack of fair use rationale problems with two images of Harold Pinter uploaded by other editors to Wikipedia Commons without giving any "fair use rationale" at all. Most recently, the image originally uploaded by User:Raul654 that showed up in this article as " Image:Harold Pinter.jpg" (which User:Slarre replaced the previous image with); both images have lack of fair use rationales despite claims of fair use. The tagged notices mark them for speedy deletion. Wikipedia editors are required to delete them from any articles using them. For more information, see {{ Deletable image-caption}}. After seeing the messages about one of these images from Wikipedia today, I posted the appropriate templates on the talk pages of the two users who uploaded them to Wikipedia Commons (as requested in the templates). These problems of potential violations of copyright and unsubstantiated claims of fair use need to be taken seriously by Wikipedia users, according to the Wikipedia policies defined in the notices. --NYScholar 17:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Uploaded a new image of Harold Pinter to Wikipedia for use in this article, providing copyright information and a fair use rationale. I hope that it can stay in the article. I added related information in the resources section.--NYScholar 10:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you to the user who provided the link added. In the future, if at all possible, please do not just toss in links to news reports and newspaper articles in this section. If there is some reason to include the news source as such in additional text in the body of the article and a citation, it needs better integration in the article. In this case, the link was thrown in at the end of an otherwise-alphabetized list of external links (not sources of citations for the text); this article features citations in "Notes." This particular information needs more work to be incorporated better in the section called "Honors" relating to "Career"; it is not parallel to the other links included in "External links." See the link:
It is a news article and the information needs better integration in the text and/or references list. This section of "Further resources" is for "Other external links" relating directly to the subject, not for news sources that can be better integrated as citations. [I have updated the article section "Honors" with information from this source and included it as a citation in the Notes.] --NYScholar 07:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
<<
>>
The article is long; a separate "Miscellaneous" section is not really needed in the article. I've moved it here so that people can consider what in it may be worth keeping in the main article and what can be omitted. -- NYScholar 01:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Since moving the whole section, I've already integrated some of the items previously placed in the "Miscellaneous" section by assorted users into already-existing and new sections of the article. (in progress) --NYScholar 01:55, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
With aim to shorten; source material is accessible in the Billington biography pages 1-5; here is the passage that documents facts stated in article; moved from note 2 to talk page: <<
"A constant feature of the Pinter legend, repeated in all the books, is that the family were Sephardic Jews of Spanish or Portuguese origin and that the original family name was Pinto, da Pinto or da Pinta, but there seems no evidence for this whatsoever. Indeed Antonia Fraser, with a historian's passion for genealogy, sat down with Pinter's parents one afternoon after lunch in Holland Park and discovered the real story: three of Pinter's grandparents [his paternal grandfather, Nathan Pinter, and his grandmothers] hail from Poland and one [his maternal grandfather, Harry Moskowitz (in business, aka Richard Mann)] from Odessa, making them Ashkenazic rather than Sephardic Jews" (3). ("Pinter's paternal grandfather Nathan was born in Poland in 1870 and came to England alone in 1900 in the wave of Russian pograms. He later went back for his wife and family. . . . [Their] third child Jack, Harold Pinter's father, was born in the East End in 1902. . ." [2-3]. Pinter's maternal grandfather [Harry Moskowitz (Richard Mann)] emigrated to London from Odessa "via Paris" in 1900 and remarried "Polish-born Rose Franklin" following his first wife's death; Pinter's mother, Frances, their "eldest" child, was born in 1904 [3].) In the Aug. 1950 issue of Poetry London, Pinter's first poems to appear in such a poetry magazine ("New Year in the Midlands" and "Chandeliers and Shadows") were "published under the name of Harold Pinta largely because one of his aunts was convinced—against all the evidence—that the family came from distinguished Portuguese ancestors, the da Pintas" (29). Pinter also discussed his heritage with Ramona Koval, during a public interview at the Edinburgh Book Festival in August 2002, later transcribed and posted online on ABC public radio (Books and Writing). At that time, Pinter repeated some of these details, referring to speculations about his family's Hungarian and Portuguese derivations: "My mother and father were born in England, by the way, in about 1902 and 1904; so they were here. They were English. . . . they were English-Jewish. My grandparents came from a rather mysterious area which some call Odessa and others call Hungary. I have no idea. My wife is convinced that after a lot of research, and she’s pretty good at research, that my family did actually come from Odessa. And she has pretty good evidence of that. However, I found that in the 1946 Olympics there was a Hungarian sprinter called Pinter. And I also know that—I’ve been told, anyway—one of my aunts believed that we were originally da Pinta in Portugal and that we were thrown out by the Spanish Inquisition. I wasn’t quite sure whether they had a Spanish Inquisition in Portugal, but according to my aunt, they certainly did. [laughter]. [Cf. Portuguese Inquisition.] And where they went from the Spanish Inquisition is rather misty, shall we say, so I’m not quite sure . . . Anyway, in short, my background is slightly misty. But my family, nevertheless, was a very stable and conventional Jewish family." (Pintér [or Pinter] is a common Hungarian surname; Pinto, Pinta, and da Pinta are common Portuguese surnames and place names. Pinto and da Pinto also occur in Italian [by way of Portuguese]. Cf. List of most common surnames.)
--NYScholar 01:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
[Past discussion archived due to the length of page being over 100 kilobytes, following suggestion of Wikipedia. --NYScholar 21:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)]
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
[Added section heading formatting]
Harold Pinter, despite being a writer, seems to be the kind of person associated with / known after his interventionist stands on various issues. I guess his is an excellent case of an artist crossing the barriers of conventional analytical theories, and meeting life for real. So, this inter-connectedness must have created a unique discourse of dissent in contrast with the direct, polemical writings of people like Noam Chomsky. I would be grateful if those who have followed Pinter's writings and intellectual activism closely can enlighten me on this matter further. I am intrigued by how he has addressed the intricate isuue of human bondings in his 'Betrayal'. Rather than remaining silent about topics related to personal life, he has proven that it is better to address it, since it is, after all, a matter of perspective. The politics of an Individual's life and views has to be related to the time and space he/she inhabits. I would also like to know whether Pinter can be contacted by e-mail. Please do share your views on this, and if possible, mail me to suave25in@hotmail.com
[In a version of this entry] The notion that Harold Pinter once performed in the 1967 Doctor Who story 'The Abonimable Snowman' has has shifted from supposition to fact, as evinced by the reference to it here in the Wikipedia entry on him. I'm afraid it is not true, or at least Harold himself denies it. The actor taking the part of the monk Ralpachan was indeed named 'David Baron' and that was indeed the actor's name that Pinter used before fame as a playwright between 1950 and 1960. However, Pinter spent most of 1967 in New York overseeing Peter Hall's Broadway production of 'The Homecoming' and simply would not have been around to film the Doctor Who episodes that year. He had no connections with the writers or directors of the series or that story, and no interest in Science Fiction. He was also doing pretty well for himself at this stage, and had no need of acting work. The image of the character available on the BBC doctor who site does bear some resemblence to him, it has to be said - compare http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/photonovels/snowmen/three/11.shtml with the image of him from the 1966-recorded 'Basement' on his own website at http://www.haroldpinter.org/acting/acting_intv.shtml) but I'm inclined to believe him when he says he simply wasn't there. Mark Batty
The soundtrack of Doctor Who: The Abominable Snownmen was released by the BBC in 2001. The booklet states "Also worthy of mention is the actor playing Ralpachan: David Baron is in fact the stage persona of the playwright Harold Pinter". Hovite 10:26, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
AFAIK it's not possible to "decline a knighthood", since you are never offered one unless it is known that you will certainly accept.
. . . Harold Pinter, who noisily spurned a knighthood for political reasons when John Major was Prime Minister, but is now happy to become a Companion of Honour - a somewhat grander and rarer tribute given "for services of national importance". (Their numbers are limited to 65.) Pinter took pains to announce to the Guardian that he did not regard this gong as "having any political connotations at all" and assured his admirers that his radical firebrand spirit remains uncompromised in every way. Lest Tony Blair should derive any base gratification from his acceptance, Pinter spelt out its meaning several times in several different ways. "I will not be supporting the present Government." The tribute, he declared, was "an honour given to me by the country for a long haul."
Two questions here. Has he spoken or written against any other government or group? There are (quite unfortunately) many places where an oppression of people and the human right violation is common and it seems ridiculous that with the exception of Cuba, three countries written here that he had criticized practices democracy. Also, he is involved in National Secular Society. Shouldn't this be written here instead of "Personal life" section as well since involvement in that society is not really a personal issue? -- Revth 01:31, 14 October 2005 (UTC)'
He's known primarily as a playwright - so why are his plays not listed? Mandel 15:32, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
I removed the link to Ashes to Ashes because it links to a David Bowie song of the same title. Dark jedi requiem 08:01, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
On his website(www.haroldpinter.org), it claims The Birthday Party was published in 1957, not 1958 as this article says. As I believe his website to be correct, I will correct the error.
[I'm adding a cleanup tag on the article.] Dates on Pinter's website often tend to be dates of final composition and/or dates of first performance and not dates of first publication and/or dates of (film/tv) release. (Several sections of his website were compiled by research assistants tasked with such work and by his (multiple) assistants beginning in around 2000, when the website was launched. There are sometimes typographical and other errors in the sections.) Some works were published long after they were first written; e.g. his novel The Dwarfs. When not confusing, one tries to use those dates or clarifies discrepancies otherwise. Did some cleanup of this article. Added some citations and additional sources for verification and further reading. --NYScholar 21:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
MLA is inadequate for our purposes, especially for sources that are largely electronic and available online. There is a disconnect between your article text and what is quoted from what reference. Please see WP:CITE and Wikipedia:Template messages/Sources of articles/Generic citations for methods of citing these so that viewers can access the original source for quotes without having to seek it laboriously. --00:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
The above comment is unsigned. [It was perhaps written by User TJive.] Whenever possible and useful, the notes and references are hyperlinked and the formats all follow the style recommended by WP:CITE. (Please scroll through the whole article at Cite; the MLA style format information is linked toward the end of it.) --NYScholar 01:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Someone has been silently changing this article, removing formatting and other features that it has taken me a long time to add, without leaving any trace of those silent edits in the "history." The changes do not improve the article at all and remove important information from it. They seem to be some kind of vandalism. They may need to be reported to administrators.--NYScholar 00:17, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
If there is no point to them not being there (which isn't true; they take up useless bits of information and this is already a long article), what is the point in bitching about the fact that I took them out? As for asterisks, look here:
See any difference? I don't. So there's no reason to have them there either.
As for your other comments, I most certainly did provide an edit summary ("copy-edit, remove editorializing, place fact tags so that quotes in particular can be SPECIFICALLY sourced"), so I have no idea what you're referring to with either that comment or by saying that I have making "multiple silent changes" at once. You can edit the whole article at once. That's what I happened to be doing, because that's what needed done. Please review the citation articles I provided earlier. If I come back to this article tomorrow and nothing has changed about the NPOV and citation problems, I'm going to revert some of the changes as well as put tags back in. -- TJive 00:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
First of all, it's my business alone what I choose to "waste" my time on, and the fact is that extraneous spaces are not needed, are removed quite frequently, and that was not all I was doing with the article. I left a summary and I gave it; I didn't specifically mention spaces because that's covered under the concept of "copy-edit" and the fact that it's not a big deal in the first place. Why are you wasting your time and mine complaining about them?
As for Hitchens, "neoconservative" is an unnecessary pejorative for someone who does not describe himself that way; this is particularly so in light of your non-neutral commentary on how "reasonable" the tone of this, that, or the other comment is. As well, and as I stated already, simply mentioning a list or a name is not proper sourcing; it should be properly referenced with a good reference standard and must meet WP:Verifiability and WP:Notability criteria, e.g. not blogs, mailing lists, and self-published web sites. Please review these guidelines and policies.
Please also see WP:CIVIL. I am attempting to politely point you to policies which explain my edits and would help improve the article. It is my decision what level of involvement I choose to have with any particular article on this site. You do not own this article. When you edit, there is a message saying, "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it." I hope you understand that this applies to any article, regardless of your own personal level of contribution or interest in the subject. -- TJive 01:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
That was the point of reference and comparison and documentation before you started tinkering with it (and taking out the section heading (without there being any edit summary re: that, btw). No one is saying that the blog's opinion is any more than an opinion, but neither is Hitchens' (e.g.) opinion any more than just an opinion (his); that's why it is useful to describe its similarity to " neoconservative" views, btw (whether or not he accepts that that is what his views are). Hitchens may try to reject the label ( neoconservative) yet, nevertheless, he expresses views meeting the Wikipedia definition (as linked earlier[[which you removed] and here). Hitchens' viewpoint (which it is not up to him only to define, btw--not according to NPOV) is being cited in this article (now) only by way of example: not as the "final word" on Pinter's Nobel Prize; that's why it was outrageous to have this article include ONLY his single quotation (initially--before I revised it).
This is getting ridiculous. I don't know how familiar you are with Wikipedia customs and policies but I'm assuming your familiarity is not that great based upon your comments, especially in regards to the history. I am not "harassing" you. I didn't even comment until you made some further edits to the page that basically reverted some of my copy-editing. The only thing "harassing" is quibbling - repeatedly - about asinine matters like deleting extra spaces, or not changing an article over multiple edits with detailed rationalizations for every single one (that is why it's called an "edit summary" not an "edit detail" and why there are talk pages in the first place). I merely suggested that you use more generally accepted Wikipedia citation so that readers can see the source for the direct quotations - footnote styles that everyone is accustomed to and that Wikipedia desperately needs for credibility - and that is why I put in fact tags, so that they could be replaced with Wikipedia reference notations. That is it. You're turning this into a bizarre personal feud that I'm not interested in. At all.
As for blogs, I never once said that you were using blogs. My comment was in reference to your improper use of a mailing list as a source for criticism claims. I mentioned mailing lists, and yet you harped on the point of blogs. Yes blogs are acceptable, in a limited fashion, as external links sometimes and as reference points for blog-related articles. This is not such an article. Criticism and counter-criticism of Pinter should be cited from verifiable, reliable, and notable sources, per Wikipedia guidelines. A mailing list does not meet that criteria and is not encyclopedic. It should thus be removed.
You also need to treat material neutrally. Making political arguments, or using political epithets and pejoratives, is not acceptable. Statements which assert that an argument is "more reasonable" than another betray a personal POV and value judgment on a contentious subject. That is also not acceptable.
These are simple matters with very clear guidelines that you are not following or are not willing to understand. That I am pointing them out has nothing to do with you personally, and has everything to do with attempting to improve Wikipedia. Stop making this into something - everything - that it really isn't. -- TJive 03:51, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Here is a link to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, the general table of contents for pages offering guidelines in Wikipedia. Formats are consistent with discipline-specific style sheets and such style sheets are among those suggested for documentation formatting in Wikipedia. One has to examine each section and go to links in the sections for more specific guidelines, recommendations, suggestions, and related information. [update] --NYScholar 00:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
[added this section heading later--NYScholar 21:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)]
Deleted non- NPOV. See References for a selection of articles on Pinter's Nobel Prize and Nobel Lecture.
[editing conflicts have led to problems with adding replies to this Talk page; perhaps due to lack of space. (Jus could not get Wikipedia to save changes for most of time between this comment and next one.)] See history for what was attempted to be posted here earlier. Thanks.--NYScholar 05:55, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
It's taken me a while, and I'm sorry to have had to preview-save-return to correct so many typographical errors, but I've finally finished work on converting citations (mostly) to linked in-line (in-text) "Notes"; the expanded/reorganized References list includes those items and others referred to in the body of the article. I hope that this work has improved this article. [updated]. --NYScholar 20:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I've done some further cleaning up of this article, including the associated "Wikiquote" page. Please see talk there for explanations. --NYScholar 21:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC) [My preference is raw signature, no link; I've tried to delete the links above.]--NYScholar 21:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
The entire article uses MLA format consistently; you have stuck in hugely long dashes that have nothing to do with that or any format and do not match the usage of the format in the rest of the article, which is, correctly, "---." [In Wikipedia editing style, one can make it look like a shorter long dash: namely: –––.] --NYScholar 00:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC) [I restored my previous use of "Harold Pinter" as the author in the heading, so that repeating his name and using "---" is no longer necessary again. See "Cleanup" heading above and the cleanup tag on the article now relating to these problems. --NYScholar 02:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)] [Updated after further cleanup of "References." --NYScholar 21:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)]
I am about to bring you to the attention of arbitration for more than Wikipedia:3RR: for intentional and malicious harassment. Desist, or I will. At this point, you appear to me to be embarrassing yourself and Wikipedia. --NYScholar 00:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll have to restore the descriptions of books relating to the ISBN numbers etc. later; if you removed them, I haven't time to replace them there. They weren't ads; they were catalogue descriptions of the books for purposes of verification of the sources by those who don't have copies of the books (which I do have). I have referred to the actual sources themselves, not to just the descriptions. Obviously, you haven't read the content of the descriptions of the book and your (usual) kind of complaint is simply another knee-jerk response made without understanding of the relevance to verifiability and usefulness in knowing what the sources are actually about. The damage that you are doing to this article will take hours to correct, and, due to time wasted over your trivial bickering over Jacobs et al., I haven't time now to work on any of this. I've saved previous versions and will restore as needed later. --NYScholar 02:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed the remaining descriptions that another editor inconsistently left in the article. It's not worth my time to try to reconstruct what she deleted before, and I had provided them only for people's knowledge and convenience. I won't make that effort again. --NYScholar 05:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I have brought this article to the attention of administrators. While the changes made by SlimVirgin are being investigated, I have added a "cleanup" tag to the article as well. I dispute the accuracy of her very misleading claims about format and her changes to the previously-correct format. MLA format is the appropriate format to use for this subject. See Wikipedia:Citing Sources. --NYScholar 00:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
After having finished cleaning up others' errors and problems in this article over the past couple of months, over the past day, I have cleaned up the inaccuracies and mistakes that SV has introduced. (Though by now there could be more, since it's taking a long time to write these comments. It's been over four hours of work just since adding the message about the tag below! None of it had to be done, and I really object to what has happened to this article due to what SV did to it.)
For example, as my previous and current note to Billington's authorized biography of Pinter indicate (now restored), Pinter's parents were not "immigrants"; they were born in England. The source that SV added (Crown) has errors in it. One does not cite a secondary or tertiary source ("intermediate sources" according to Wikipedia:Citing sources and Wikipedia:Reliable sources) if primary sources are available. The official Nobel Prize website (already listed in the external links before and now) is a primary source of information about Pinter's Nobel Prize; it is what one should cite, not some newspaper article which uses online biographies of questionable reliability and sources like Wikipedia articles (which are often incorrect, as this one has been in previous versions) for information. The reason that I began working on this article was because I recognized how many errors it used to contain. Over the past two months, I corrected the errors.
SlimVirgin, who it appears to me knows nothing or little about the subject Harold Pinter other than what she has read in the article that I expanded in the last 2 months and in a few newspaper articles and websites (and perhaps other than the sources that I already linked), repeatedly made changes based on what I know to be sources that cannot be cited in this article. She introduced and continued to re-introduce factual errors from one newspaper article that is incorrect in what she paraphrases from it. (She doesn't give a quotation; I found where she got the material in that one source, and Pinter himself and Billington both correct it; Pinter's parents were both born in England; they are not "immigrants," so he does not come from an "immigrant" Eastern-European background. THEIR [parents] and HIS [grandparents], or his ancestors were, as the article said before SV changed it; "ancestry.")
SV has repeatedly re-inserted information that I deleted because I know that it is not documented in Billington's published book or in any other source already used in the essay or that can be used in the essay (given WP:Reliable sources. If SV has no source that she can cite authoritatively and reliably, and she does not add any citation to back it up, then she cannot add unsourced information to the article or add it back into the article after I have removed it (phrases, unsubstantiated "facts"). Such unverifiable informaton does not belong in this essay.
WP:BLP pertains to Harold Pinter and other living people that the article mentions. WP:NOR applies here.) Because this article deals with a living person and refers to other living people, after reviewing W:BLP carefully over the last several days in relation to the article on Charles Jacobs (political activist), I decided that one needs to be more sensitive in this article too, and I added the "BLP" tag to this talk page to indicate that need for caution. (There was negative unsourced misinformation contained in earlier versions of this essay inserted by earlier editors, which I removed early on. [Fixed link --NYScholar 01:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)]
I also revised and corrected problems on the Wikiquotes page.
I think that SV should not work any further on this article. It uses MLA style format which she doesn't "care about." She does not know how to construct the citations in the notes so that they match the reference format being used already in the article (MLA format or based on MLA format). That is the predominant format of this article: See WP:Cite for rationale to conform to it in subsequent changes in this article, so that they are consistent.
I am aware that with Pinter's winning the Nobel Prize, more and more people are seeking accurate information about him. That is a main reason why I spent so much time on this article and why, in the very-detailed note 2, I took this opportunity to correct erroneous or misleading details about his family background posted all over the internet.
Billington is Pinter's authorized biographer--his biography is based on extensive and intensive interviews with Pinter, it is scrupulously documented for the most part, and scholars and critics consider it the current standard authoritative source of facts about Pinter's life, as are Pinter's own later published and broadcast interview remarks, which this Wikipedia article now also cites as verifiable sources throughout and in the references. When Billington publishes an updated and expanded edition of his biographical study of Pinter and his work, this article can incorporate the new information as deemed relevant by future editors. --NYScholar 04:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Removed tag (at least for time being); will return to re-post it if future editors introduce more errors and problems.--NYScholar 07:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC) [re-added tag while working on further cleanup. After that, removed it. Will add again if necessary.]--NYScholar 12:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Warning to SlimVirgin (again). Brought to the attention of administrators.--NYScholar 00:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Renewed warning. SV's persistent re-introduction of previous errors through reverting to them is causing same problems. She is not knowledgeable about the subject, chooses unreliable sources of information about it to cite, and adds factual inaccuracies and other kinds of errors to the article without realizing it; when informed of these inaccuracies, she reintroduces them, without concern for the overall accuracy of the article. See the tag at the top of this page referring to WP:BLP and see WP:AD.--NYScholar 01:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I've put the References section in alphabetical order (per WP:CITE and every book I've ever read). The way they were laid out was confusing and made it hard to find anything; the whole point of the section is to make it easy to see, at a glance, who has been used as a source. Please edit in accordance with WP:CITE and WP:MoS. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 02:53, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Once again--see earlier warnings--you have created more problems. Apparently, you don't know how to alphabetize or the order of letters in the alphabet. The last time you changed the order, you mis-alphabetized. Now "there you go again." I suggest, once again, that you stay out of this article. You are wrecking other people's (especially my) hard work. Other Wikipedia articles do use single and double bullets (asterisks) to indicate works relating to works in reference lists. Apparently, you don't know that. You do not improve the article with the changes you make and revert; you weaken the article. You are not the only reader of this article, and you are not a bibliographer. You don't know or care about the format used in this bibliography (as you yourself have said), and, therefore, you are not equipped to edit (to "improve") it. Every time you change something, you make more mistakes.--NYScholar 03:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Before I saw this additional problem, I had just posted a WP:3RR repeat warning to Slim Virgin re: Harold Pinter on her user talk page. --NYScholar 03:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
There was a logic to the previous version of the References which, apparently, SV could not perceive. I suggest that she go back into the article and make the changes back to the way the References list was before she wrecked it. Let her get the headache.--NYScholar 03:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC) [Updated: As she never fixed the mistakes, I fixed them later. See my subsequent explanations. --NYScholar 22:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)]
"If you find yourself in a revert war, it is a good idea to ensure that the "other side" is aware of the 3RR, especially if they are new, by leaving a warning about WP:3RR on their talk page. Administrators are unlikely to block a user who has never been warned. If you report a 3RR violation here it is good form to inform the person you are reporting of this on their talk page and provide a link to this page WP:AN/3RR." (italics added). [I have not yet listed any of the 3RR warnings that I have made to SV on WP:AN/3RR.]
Once again: see WP:Cite and read all the material linked at the MLA Style sheet links. [See also W:Citation. --NYScholar 19:52, 7 August 2006 (UTC)] Go to MLA as linked by Wikipedia and via MLA to direct links to the MLA Style Manual etc., or, if one is in college, to a writing center which has the various bibliographical documentation style sheets. Wikipedia does not invent these documentation formats; it adheres to those already in existence. Read more closely.
In the case of this particular article on Harold Pinter, I volunteered my own time and effort to improve what I saw as an article which, before I began working on it, was filled with errors and needed development, especially use of Wikipedia:Reliable sources. [1]
Wikipedia users and editors need to educate themselves in the many discipline-specific styles of documentation. As a start (and it's just a start), read again WP:Cite, which explains the importance of choosing documentation styles consistent with the disciplines of the subjects of articles. When no consistent format has already been chosen for an article, as it points out, one should choose a documentation format style (e.g. MLA, APA, ACS, or styles given as examples--and only for illustration purposes) that matches the discipline of the subject and then follow it consistently according to the guidelines of the publications of the organization involved (e.g., MLA, APA, ACS) (online and print). [Updated]--NYScholar 22:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
See also W:Citation for further information about the various accepted general and disciplinary-specific documentation formats for citations in notes and lists of works cited ("References"). [I just added this link to discussion above too, for other Wikipedia users' information and convenience.] --NYScholar 19:52, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I have finished copy-editing and correcting this article (unless I find more errors later!), restoring the notes and references to MLA format consistent with the discipline of the subject (literature). Arbitrary changes by user SV, such as altering what was previously-correct punctuation, capitalization, and alphabetization, and removing "online posting" in the "References" created confusing inconsistencies in the format. A documentation style (such as MLA format used throughout this article) must be consistent and uniformly applied; lack of consistency and uniform application of style guidelines leads to confusion for readers, especially those readers interested in a specialized topic (e.g., Harold Pinter, 2005 Nobel Laureate in Literature) who are familiar with its documentation format and who know how to read and to understand it.
The current format of this article is useful both online and in print (when the article is printed out; printable version is an option in Wikipedia, and many Wikipedia users print the articles and read them offline).
Without accurate bibliographical information in the "References" and the "Notes," the article is weaker and less useful to the wide readership of Wikipedia.
As Wikipedia articles are "open source" and often copied as is and re-posted elsewhere (with requisite credit given to Wikipedia) and often translated into other languages and then re-posted, it is essential that the articles be accurate both in content and style, which includes consistency in both documentation and documentation format. Producing such consistency requires an eye for detail that not everyone has. If one is not particularly interested in such detailed copy-editing, or in the accuracy of punctuation, including capitalization, then there is no reason to involve oneself in such copy-editing. One is bound to introduce errors that worsen rather than improve the article.
To Wikipedia users/editors: I have devoted a great deal of time and care to trying to make this article accurate and free from error. If any major errors (not minor mechanical and typographical errors such as those involving stray punctuation or clear cases of misspelling) appear to remain, please post a comment about your perception of the error on this talk page. That way other Wikipedia users and I (if I see your comment) can consider the problem and discuss how to resolve it. If there is no significant problem, there is no reason to edit the article.
Please do not make arbitrary changes to the "Notes" and "References" or re-format them arbitrarily. Instead, please make suggestions for such changes and engage in discussion about them on this talk page.
I understand that people may want to add information about Harold Pinter to the article. If so, please post the information that you are interested in adding and the rationale for adding it, so that other Wikipedia editors can discuss such matters, especially if these matters might spark controversy. Participating in such discussion can result in feedback on the accuracy of the information and useful sources for verifying and documenting.
Before commenting on this page and/or before posting any information about Harold Pinter on this talk page or in this article, please read the BLP tag warning at the top, particularly the items linked in the tag. Thank you very much. --NYScholar 06:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC) (UTC)
[. . . .] The Nobel medal and each Nobel medal are trademarked and their images are both trademarked and copyright protected; see the copyright notices on the Nobel Foundation official website; I added a link to the Literature Nobel Medal webpage in "External links" in the article for those who need more information. --NYScholar 01:10, 15 August 2006 (UTC); updated --NYScholar 19:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Once again, I have deleted the Nobel medal image that another editor added after I wrote the above comment. There are clear-cut copyright violations in the posting of this image in Wikipedia Commons that have not been dealt with. If one clicks on the image, there is a clear reference to the fact that the image is marked for deletion due to copyright violations. See Nobel medal image talk page for updated explanation and quotations from the copyright notice of the Nobel Foundation. --NYScholar 19:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
A user added the Nobel Prize in Literature Medal image (now with a registered, copyright notice to the design as a caption that shows up when moving cursor over it with mouse) back into this article. Then a different user objected to its placement on the page as "horrible," resized it as a thumbnail, and moved it down. I've re-located the thumbnail image tag to the section about the prize (further down), where such an illustration (if permitted) appears more appropriate. (See discussions of potential problem of not getting written permission to do so and of "fair use" claims on the image talk page and other related article talk pages pertaining to the Nobel Prize if one wants more information.) --NYScholar 18:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Another user (SoothingR) has now deleted the Nobel Medal image from the article without any discussion on this talk page, claiming that it is not "fair use," apparently unaware of the extensive discussion of this issue in this talk page and the talk page for the Nobel Prize and on my own archived talk page, where an administrator reverted my own earlier attempts to question "fair use." Is this issue resolved or unresolved? Has Wikipedia yet heard from the Nobel Foundation's public relations administrator regarding this matter (requirement of written permissions for use of trademarked and copyrighted images of Nobel Medals throughout Wikipedia)? If so, what is the status of this situation? --NYScholar 04:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Explanation: Please do not revert to "Honours."
"Honors" is the Am. spelling and acceptable. Wikipedia redirects "honors" to "honours"; but there is no Wikipedia link being used in the heading. The article uses American spelling consistently. Changing one spelling introduces an inconsistency. British spelling "honour" is followed for the actual titles of the honors conveyed, as for quotations of them. Use of capital letters for such honors indicates the name of the title or honor or prize. It is acceptable in Wikipedia to use American spelling. American editors (like me) use American spelling. The nationality of the subject does not govern the spelling to be used. Many articles in the English version of Wikipedia on subjects of various nationalities use American spelling. --NYScholar 18:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
For more information, see the following Wikipedia article American and British English differences, especially the sections relating to spelling or orthography. Please be careful not to introduce inconsistencies of spelling into this article; the text of this article currently attempts to conform consistently with conventions of American spelling, American punctuation and quotation, MLA (Modern Language Association of America) usage. See WP:Cite, and other Wikipedia policies and articles that I've already linked to in earlier comments and replies. If in doubt, please review the conventions. (I've already addressed some of these issues in earlier comments and replies to others' comments and changes above in this talk page; so please read those too.) Thanks. --NYScholar 18:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
See also: English Wikipedia#Controversies for further perspective on the importance of consistency of conventions within the texts of Wikipedia articles: "The policy, however, is to prefer an appropriate form of English for articles of regional scope (e.g., Canadian English for subjects related to Canada) but otherwise to allow the use of any variety of English, as long as the variety of English is consistent throughout the text of an article" ( English Wikipedia#National stylistic conventions). An article on a Nobel laureate and world-renowned subject like Harold Pinter is of international (not regional or national) scope, and this usage of American English (as long as "consistent throughout the text of an article") is thus allowed. --NYScholar 19:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
So what if somebody took the time to revise the entire article into English spelling? Would you, NYScholar, insist in reverting it? (Not that I could be arsed to do it personally - this article got way past "human-readable" format long ago). 81.129.31.22 01:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
It is inappropriate for an anonymous editor to add (with erroneous heading format) as a separate section to what is already a long article the entire text of a letter signed by Harold Pinter and others. There are many, many letters of this kind that Pinter signs. Such letters are already mentioned in the section on his political activism. The material added is misplaced and should not be quoted in full in the body of this article. The entire text of the very same letter is already accessible in the note in the section on "political activism." Please read articles like this one more carefully before just adding material to it as the anononymous editor has done in this case. I've deleted the material entirely as it is already accessible in note 30, keyed to the section on "political activism." (I added the citation [though redundant] to the same letter published in The Independent; as the letter was distributed to the international media, it is published in many such venues, and it is not possible or necessary to list each occurrence of its publication.) --NYScholar 00:05, 27 August 2006 (UTC) [Updated link to note 30 as notes automatically re-numbered since first posting this comment. If note numbers change in future, please keep this in mind when searching for what is currently note 30. Note also that in current links, note number 30 reads as if it were note number 29; numbers in links are one digit lower than actual note numbers keyed to main article text.] --NYScholar 18:46, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Ongoing deletions of inappropriate and irresponsible insertions by anonymous IPs; e.g., User: 75.213.170.156 and User: 81.145.240.22. --NYScholar 09:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
There have been copyright/lack of fair use rationale problems with two images of Harold Pinter uploaded by other editors to Wikipedia Commons without giving any "fair use rationale" at all. Most recently, the image originally uploaded by User:Raul654 that showed up in this article as " Image:Harold Pinter.jpg" (which User:Slarre replaced the previous image with); both images have lack of fair use rationales despite claims of fair use. The tagged notices mark them for speedy deletion. Wikipedia editors are required to delete them from any articles using them. For more information, see {{ Deletable image-caption}}. After seeing the messages about one of these images from Wikipedia today, I posted the appropriate templates on the talk pages of the two users who uploaded them to Wikipedia Commons (as requested in the templates). These problems of potential violations of copyright and unsubstantiated claims of fair use need to be taken seriously by Wikipedia users, according to the Wikipedia policies defined in the notices. --NYScholar 17:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Uploaded a new image of Harold Pinter to Wikipedia for use in this article, providing copyright information and a fair use rationale. I hope that it can stay in the article. I added related information in the resources section.--NYScholar 10:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you to the user who provided the link added. In the future, if at all possible, please do not just toss in links to news reports and newspaper articles in this section. If there is some reason to include the news source as such in additional text in the body of the article and a citation, it needs better integration in the article. In this case, the link was thrown in at the end of an otherwise-alphabetized list of external links (not sources of citations for the text); this article features citations in "Notes." This particular information needs more work to be incorporated better in the section called "Honors" relating to "Career"; it is not parallel to the other links included in "External links." See the link:
It is a news article and the information needs better integration in the text and/or references list. This section of "Further resources" is for "Other external links" relating directly to the subject, not for news sources that can be better integrated as citations. [I have updated the article section "Honors" with information from this source and included it as a citation in the Notes.] --NYScholar 07:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
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The article is long; a separate "Miscellaneous" section is not really needed in the article. I've moved it here so that people can consider what in it may be worth keeping in the main article and what can be omitted. -- NYScholar 01:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Since moving the whole section, I've already integrated some of the items previously placed in the "Miscellaneous" section by assorted users into already-existing and new sections of the article. (in progress) --NYScholar 01:55, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
With aim to shorten; source material is accessible in the Billington biography pages 1-5; here is the passage that documents facts stated in article; moved from note 2 to talk page: <<
"A constant feature of the Pinter legend, repeated in all the books, is that the family were Sephardic Jews of Spanish or Portuguese origin and that the original family name was Pinto, da Pinto or da Pinta, but there seems no evidence for this whatsoever. Indeed Antonia Fraser, with a historian's passion for genealogy, sat down with Pinter's parents one afternoon after lunch in Holland Park and discovered the real story: three of Pinter's grandparents [his paternal grandfather, Nathan Pinter, and his grandmothers] hail from Poland and one [his maternal grandfather, Harry Moskowitz (in business, aka Richard Mann)] from Odessa, making them Ashkenazic rather than Sephardic Jews" (3). ("Pinter's paternal grandfather Nathan was born in Poland in 1870 and came to England alone in 1900 in the wave of Russian pograms. He later went back for his wife and family. . . . [Their] third child Jack, Harold Pinter's father, was born in the East End in 1902. . ." [2-3]. Pinter's maternal grandfather [Harry Moskowitz (Richard Mann)] emigrated to London from Odessa "via Paris" in 1900 and remarried "Polish-born Rose Franklin" following his first wife's death; Pinter's mother, Frances, their "eldest" child, was born in 1904 [3].) In the Aug. 1950 issue of Poetry London, Pinter's first poems to appear in such a poetry magazine ("New Year in the Midlands" and "Chandeliers and Shadows") were "published under the name of Harold Pinta largely because one of his aunts was convinced—against all the evidence—that the family came from distinguished Portuguese ancestors, the da Pintas" (29). Pinter also discussed his heritage with Ramona Koval, during a public interview at the Edinburgh Book Festival in August 2002, later transcribed and posted online on ABC public radio (Books and Writing). At that time, Pinter repeated some of these details, referring to speculations about his family's Hungarian and Portuguese derivations: "My mother and father were born in England, by the way, in about 1902 and 1904; so they were here. They were English. . . . they were English-Jewish. My grandparents came from a rather mysterious area which some call Odessa and others call Hungary. I have no idea. My wife is convinced that after a lot of research, and she’s pretty good at research, that my family did actually come from Odessa. And she has pretty good evidence of that. However, I found that in the 1946 Olympics there was a Hungarian sprinter called Pinter. And I also know that—I’ve been told, anyway—one of my aunts believed that we were originally da Pinta in Portugal and that we were thrown out by the Spanish Inquisition. I wasn’t quite sure whether they had a Spanish Inquisition in Portugal, but according to my aunt, they certainly did. [laughter]. [Cf. Portuguese Inquisition.] And where they went from the Spanish Inquisition is rather misty, shall we say, so I’m not quite sure . . . Anyway, in short, my background is slightly misty. But my family, nevertheless, was a very stable and conventional Jewish family." (Pintér [or Pinter] is a common Hungarian surname; Pinto, Pinta, and da Pinta are common Portuguese surnames and place names. Pinto and da Pinto also occur in Italian [by way of Portuguese]. Cf. List of most common surnames.)
--NYScholar 01:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
[Past discussion archived due to the length of page being over 100 kilobytes, following suggestion of Wikipedia. --NYScholar 21:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)]
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