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I am open to any good explanation of these edits, but if none are forth coming then I expect they will eventually be reverted by someone, because they appear quite unjustified:
1. [1]. Adding {{cn}} tags to sentences, recently adapted from previous versions by User:Genie, which all contain clear referencing in so-called "Harvard" format, with easy-to-click links to the article bibliography.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 15:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
2.
[2] Removal of sourced information about the original identification of the so-called Cohen modal back in 2000, because it is "not really reliable in the context of newer literature". As the sentence just notes the historical fact about when the term and concept was first mentioned in the field, something which all articles about this subject still properly mention and cite, how can this sentence not be reliable? --
Andrew Lancaster (
talk)
15:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
You do not actually read the papers you cite and then make assumptions that are not verifiable, so you cannot comprehend the responses you are getting. Read the source of the information in the supplemental data and then the methodology used before jumping to the conclusion at the end. Your biases are affecting your interpretations of the results. John Lloyd Scharf 19:18, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Just admit you are wrong and stop your
tendentious editing.John Lloyd Scharf 19:48, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Name the "three models." Make a logical argument with quotes from the sources rather than repeating your claim. See Wikipedia:Tendentious_editing and remove the reference to Iran. John Lloyd Scharf 19:48, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Now that the chaff has been removed, .. . . . The origin overwhelmingly being discussed is not J1 origins but a J1c3 subtype. Origin paragraph should be primarily focused on the origin of J1, the topic of the page. This discussion of J1 and J2 and Neolithic markers are brought forth with no evidence of how this corresponds MRCA dates of either J1 or J2. It is problematic in the hypothesis. The classic Neolithic package is defined by settled agriculture and animal husbandry (pottery, cows and cereal). Whereas this confuses the definition arguing for a genetically split neolithic. Second if J1 and J2 split and this was a consequence of cultural diversification in the Neolithic, then we have the fact that J1c3 is neccesarily descendant from J1 and cannot have been born from the precise same time frame, but some later time. I have left the statement concerning Semetic languages; however this is what wiki says on semetic languages.
"The Semitic family is a member of the larger Afroasiatic family, all of whose other five or more branches are based in Africa. Largely for this reason, the ancestors of Proto-Semitic speakers are believed by many to have first arrived in the Middle East from Africa, possibly as part of the operation of the Saharan pump, around the late Neolithic.[7][8] Diakonoff sees Semitic originating between the Nile Delta and Canaan as the northernmost branch of Afroasiatic. Blench even wonders whether the highly divergent Gurage indicate an origin in Ethiopia (with the rest of Ethiopic Semitic a later back migration). However, an opposing theory is that Afroasiatic originated in the Middle East, and that Semitic is the only branch to have stayed put; this view is supported by apparent Sumerian and Caucasian loanwords in the African branches of Afroasiatic.[9] A recent Bayesian analysis of alternative Semitic histories supports the latter possibility[citation needed] and identifies an origin of Semitic languages in the Levant around 3,750 BC with a single introduction from southern Arabia into Africa around 800 BC.[10] "
Given the origin of these languages to the SW and rather late, then there is no neccesary connection with agriculturalist of S anatolia for an earlier period. The origins of the language may significnatly postdate the origin of J1c3 and thus its introduction is speculative. If 2 of the most favored hypotheses are correct, then the speculation on semitic language/gene spread cannot be correct.
21:06, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Those are verifiable dates of age I provided before.
They show a connection with the:
But, then, you cherry pick information, make assumptions that are not verifiable, and edit in your pet theories about the subclades rather than just dealing with the calculated dates of origin for establishing a place of origin. John Lloyd Scharf 19:09, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Try to keep up with the title. This about the section on origins. That is where you contentiously insist on mentioning Iran with no verifiable source. John Lloyd Scharf 21:26, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
1. WP:MEDREV
Finally, with regard to the broader issue of science. "Honesty and the policies of neutrality and No original research demand that we present the prevailing "scientific consensus". Polling a group of experts in the field wouldn't be practical for many editors but often there is an easier way. The scientific consensus can be found in recent, authoritative review articles, textbooks, major up-to-date reference works such as medical dictionaries or scientific encyclopedias, and some forms of monographs. Be aware that many such reference works are many steps removed from the primary literature, and may well be out-of-date in terms of the current consensus. Beware of the over-simplifications likely to be found in condensed dictionaries and encyclopedias.
There is sometimes no single prevailing view because the available evidence does not yet point to a single answer. Because Wikipedia not only aims to be accurate, but also useful, it tries to explain the theories and empirical justification for each school of thought, with reference to published sources. Editors must not, however, create arguments themselves in favor of, or against, any particular theory or position. See Wikipedia:No original research, which is policy. Significant-minority views are welcome in Wikipedia, but must be identified as minority views and not given the same depth of coverage as the majority view. The views of tiny minorities need not be reported. (See Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View.)
As I read the main article the first time I did not find a Neutral Point of View, instead I found the article heavily weighed in speculative hypothesis based on outdated Y chromosomal studies, particularly concerned with Jewish and Islamic migration. As I am reading the wiki guidelines above, antiquated speculation should be downplayed in the article. The way I see it right now is the most recent Y chromosomal papers on the matter and their various hypothesis to explain dispersion are the material which should be focused on, especially important are the confidence intervals of both the frequencies and the molecular clocking, if provided. If there is a debate or contradiction between two papers, or if one paper fails to mention its clocking results this should be pointed out, since it is an opportunity for cherry picking results (e.g. one authors feels confident enough to clock a dispersion event, where the other author does not find a level of confidence).
Andrew has repeated his claim about the references. Of the four sentences I tagged, only one had proper referencing, the other three did not, yet the claims that they were making were speculative and dubious. One editor fixed this be adding foot notes. The more dubious a claim is, the more one needs to make certain that it is obviously referenced, referencing 2 sentences above only invites critique.
Now I know what ANDY is going to do here:
However, if all parties would stop these side rings in this circus and focus on what WP requests of editors with regard to
PB666
yap
16:32, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
PB666 (P Deitiker) continues to delete one of the most well-known and frequently cited speculations about J1 in peer reviewed journals. Discussion on this talk page never gets past me responding, and PB666, being unable or unwilling to answer, starting new discussions elsewhere. Here is the sentence that keeps getting deleted:
Apart from the Jewish " Cohen" haplotype, Semino et al. (2000) associated this DNA profile with the Arab expansion in the seventh century AD, and noted that it was most frequent amongst men in the Middle East and North Africa, but less frequent in Ethiopia and Europe. |
Here are the diffs of PB666 deleting it, with his edit summaries:-
Because PB666 is not one for using the talk page in any practical way I will respond to the edit summaries here in detail:-
"Many authors have proposed STR-based motifs to trace the genealogies of pre-historic or ethno-religious ancestries. Examples are the Dys388*13 allele associated with early neolithic agro–pastoral cultures (King RJ and Underhill P, personal communication); the Galilee and the Dys388*17/YCAIIa/b*22–22 motifs for an Arab ancestry,2, 3 the Cohanim 6-locus motif to link the descendants of a Jewish priesthood.4" |
"We wondered whether clustering and similarities among mismatch curves in the Arabic pool reflect shared evolutionary history, following the hypothesis of a diffusion of J1 chromosomes mediated by the spread of Islam since 650 AD.2, 3, 9" |
"Previous studies of J1-M2672, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 have found it to occur at high frequencies among the Arabic-speaking populations of the Middle East, conventionally interpreted as reflecting the spread of Islam in the first millennium CE.8" |
...So please PB666 define your case in a clear manner, and if necessary let's take it to WP:RSN.
BTW, to cover all points I can find, JohnLloydScharf has mentioned something above which he may have intended to be about this subject.
copy of old comment. do not edit | Your contentions are based on reviews of the 2000 paper and not the information given by Hammer et al.(2009). I have seen the criticisms of the research and they do not stand up to close scrutiny. You are cherry picking - again. John Lloyd Scharf 17:22, 26 August 2011 (UTC) |
---|
Just in case there is any misunderstanding, the Hammer et al 2009 article cited in our article does not mention the Semino et al 2000 article at all as far as I can see.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 10:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
As I see PB666 and JohnLloydScharf continue discussions on PB666's talkpage, which seem to imply that PB666 aims to keep deleting the passage, I wrack my brain for solutions. I propose 2:-
Looking at the article history, the current "Proposed origin" and "Subclades" sections contain material which was once in the same section. On 23rd August, User:Genie split them up in a series of edits which none of us opposed. However they had a perhaps unfortunate consequence of splitting up discussion so that the doubts about the Arab expansion theory are mentioned in one section only. So the critique of Semino et al (2000) is not together with the summary of it. Here is a diff showing the net effect of Genie's edits. I am going to try to recover some of the old effect. If this resolves all concerns, great! Comments welcome.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:37, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
The P58 marker which defines subgroup '''J1c3''' is common, and was first announced in {{harvtxt|Karafet|Mendez|Meilerman|Underhill|2008}}, but had been announced earlier under the name "Page08" in 2006 in {{Harvtxt|Repping|Van Daalen|Brown|2006}}.<ref name=chiaroni2011/> This haplogroup dominates haplogroup J, and is notable as containing the Jewish "[[Cohen modal haplotype]]", as well as both the so-called "Galilee [[modal]] haplotype" and "P&I Arab modal [[haplotype]]" associated with Palestinians and Israeli Arabs by {{harvtxt|Nebel|Filon|Weiss|Weale|2000}}.<ref name=hammer>{{harvtxt|Hammer|Behar|Karafet|Mendez|2009}}</ref> |
More generally, the J-P58 group has been shown to be closely associated with a large cluster of J1 which had been recognized before the discovery of P58. This cluster was identified by [[short tandem repeat|STR marker]]s haplotypes - specifically YCAII as 22-22, and DYS388 having unusual repeat values of 15 or higher, instead of 13.<ref name=chiaroni2011/> Apart from the Jewish "[[Cohen]]" haplotype, {{harvtxt|Semino|Passarino|Oefner|Lin|2000}} associated this DNA profile with the [[Arab expansion]] in the seventh century AD, and noted that it was most frequent amongst men in the Middle East and North Africa, but less frequent in Ethiopia and Europe. |
Similarly, {{harvtxt|Tofanelli|Ferri|Bulayeva|Caciagli|2009}} refer to an "Arabic" and a "[[Eurasian]]" type of J1. The Arabic type includes [[Arabic]] speakers from [[Maghreb]], [[Sudan]], [[Iraq]] and [[Qatar]], and it is a relatively homogeneous group. This is the group with YCAII=22-22 and high DYS388 values. The more diverse "Eurasian" group includes [[Europeans]], [[Kurds]], [[Iranians]] and [[Ethiopians]] (Ethiopia being outside of Eurasia), and is much more diverse. The authors also say that "Omanis show a mix of Eurasian pool-like and typical Arabic haplotypes as expected, considering the role of corridor played at different times by the Gulf of Oman in the dispersal of [[Asian]] and [[East African]] [[genes]]." |
In contrast to the older proposals of Semino et al in 2000, {{harvtxt|Chiaroni|King|Myres|Henn|2010}} and {{harvtxt|Tofanelli|Ferri|Bulayeva|Caciagli|2009}} agree in doubting that the Islamic expansions are old enough to completely explain the major patterns of J1 frequencies, especially in areas such as Turkey, the Caucausus, and Ethiopia. These areas are notably high in J1* (see below under distribution) and are also regions where the Neolithic arrived with people from the Near East, but they are not Arabic speaking. |
"Many authors have proposed STR-based motifs to trace the genealogies of pre-historic or ethno-religious ancestries. Examples are the Dys388*13 allele associated with early neolithic agro–pastoral cultures (King RJ and Underhill P, personal communication); the Galilee and the Dys388*17/YCAIIa/b*22–22 motifs for an Arab ancestry,2, 3 the Cohanim 6-locus motif to link the descendants of a Jewish priesthood.4" |
"We wondered whether clustering and similarities among mismatch curves in the Arabic pool reflect shared evolutionary history, following the hypothesis of a diffusion of J1 chromosomes mediated by the spread of Islam since 650 AD.2, 3, 9" |
"Previous studies of J1-M2672, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 have found it to occur at high frequencies among the Arabic-speaking populations of the Middle East, conventionally interpreted as reflecting the spread of Islam in the first millennium CE.8" |
Comments please. If this is NOT a good summary of the disagreement, then what is?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:37, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
The recent quotes that Andrew quoted from a more recent publications are not properly nuanced. Scientist don't generally call out 'this work is crap'. Instead they begin their critique in the interrogative form. Andrew doesn't understand that because he is not a professional scientist. Should the apriori authors addressed a problem or come to the conclusion they should have. Here is the basic problem with Semino et al. 2000. With the information that they had regarding markers and branching of those markers (at matter that has been discussed on this talk page many times) should they be have been drawing a conclusion at all about origins that we now know needs finely divided marker set to conclude upon.
A fine example of this is the most recent paper by Cruciani et al 2011 on the origin of Haplogroup A (for the references see MolAnth which most of you are members of). Cruciani basically has rerooted the human Y chromosome and re-positioned the PMRCA. The previous position and placement is only a few years old. The principle problem with Y chromosome that they describe is that the marker set that was previously used was inadequate to either describe the basal branches or define its PMRCA. To put this in a more real life perspective, it would be like me in 1492 saying Im going to sail south a few hundred miles, then west and find a new route to India. Of course you can reach India by sailing west, you first have to cross the Isthmus of panama using a canal (which did not exist in 1492), haul a cache of food and water to the Island of Hawaii, then create another cache and Island hop across the pacific and then work against the currents in Indonesia and finally you will reach India. 20 years later of course Magellan tried another southwestern/northwestern route, and he, personally, did not survive the trip. Of course and modern well equipped sailing ship could make the trip with limited difficulty as Columbus described in about the amount of time he described.
This is the same issue, Semino et al. 2000 is making a prediction about the origins of a haplotype in certain populations when he lacks anywhere near the proper background tools (in terms of molecular clocking and the particular branches and origins of those branches that Jews and Arabs have). Consequently the conclusions that are being made are premature and as speculation it is not scientific. As such it should not be included. We can see above, even more contemporary papers can get the conclusions 'way wrong'. This is the basic problem with Y chromosome studies, the level testosterones in the various forms of communication far exceeds the level of evidence.
I stated this on the R1a page and I will restate it here. Why do these conflicts arise on the Y chromosomal pages, we do not see any were the conflict on mtDNA, HLA or other pages marking variable phenotypes. The problem arises because the work from 1990s to the mid-2000s was not based on standard scientific models for deducing genetic history.
The basic problem is that authors are willing to publish conclusions, prematurely, and that willful consumers of popular science are willing to crow-bar these conclusions into wikipedia with little or no understanding of whether the conclusions are worthy to be here or not. As per the major guideline of Wikipedia for science, particularly when a scientific conclusion is questioned, is there a credible secondary reference that has an acceptable level of expertise to critically review the findings and either accept or question those findings. As we can see with Semino et al. 2000 it does not. I am questioning the validity of Semino et al to make these conclusions based on the evidence he derived from his 2000 data using the tools available at hand at the time. If Christopher Columbus took off from the Madeiera Islands in 1492 and showed up in India a year later saying he sailed west, would you, could you, believe him. Christopher columbus instead discovered the Caribbean, he thought he discovered the eastern islands off of India. Do we argue in Wikipedia that columbus discovered the Eastern Route to India, yes or no? Why because Christopher columbus was driven by an idea and he interpreted his observations in light of his preconcieved beliefs. The Norse facing the northern version of same people identified them as Skraelings (an animal/people that had mythical origins). There preconcieved notions and bias led their observations. Columbus did not know how round the earth was or the distance he would need to travel to reach India. IOW he did not know how many days he would need to travel (his maritime measures were off by a magnitude) and he did not know how to identify India when he got there.
Semino thought he has discovered how these various Y markers got into various semetic speaking populations, but the reality at that time we had inadequate information on Y clocking (the Y clocking estimates at that time are no known to be off by almost a magnitude), nor did he have a sufficiently representative selection of markers. Therefore Semino is being driven by his bias that the molecular clock they where applying was accurate (it was not) and that the marker set they were using was adequate (it was not). It is therefore akin to the same mythology applied by Columbus and the Vikings. PB666 yap 22:46, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
It does not matter wether or not he was correct or near correct, what matters here is it appropriate for us to use speculation that branches so far away from the tree of data in which it was derived.
PB666
yap
22:46, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Here is WP:V:"It does not matter wether or not he was correct or near correct, what matters here is it appropriate for us to use speculation that branches so far away from the tree of data in which it was derived."
Your demands are simply not in line with the way this project works.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 21:03, 14 September 2011 (UTC)"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that information in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."
In other words, they just make a common sense observation about RELATIVE diversity, and then say that this might be caused by the Arab expansion. This is very consistent with Chiaroni et al and Tofanelli et al, who both mainly emphasize that the Arab expansions can not explain everything.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 07:55, 15 September 2011 (UTC)"The lower internal variance of J-M267 in the Middle East and North Africa, relative to Europe and Ethiopia, is suggestive of two different migrations. [...] These results are consistent with the proposal that this haplotype was diffused in recent time by Arabs who, mainly from the 7th century a.d., expanded to northern Africa (Nebel et al. 2002)."
The citable source of the information is given in the Supplementary Online Material for Karafet et al. http://genome.cshlp.org/content/suppl/2008/04/02/gr.7172008.DC1/SOM_2.pdf
It says, and I quote: "Although the phylogeny is under constant revision, the International Society of Genetic Genealogy Haplotype 2010 Tree provides a catalog of current refinements ( http://www.isogg.org/tree/) that were followed in this study." That is not a citation. It is a note where the citations may be found. The citations for the article are at the bottom of the article. Nice try, but no cigar. John Lloyd Scharf 02:50, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
There you go again, recasting what I said and lying about it. I did not say NEVER. Your ISOGG and JOGG do not qualify. Stick to the policy that tertiary sources should not be used in place of secondary sources for detailed discussion. John Lloyd Scharf 02:19, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
We should strive to use the latest tree, I have no problem with the ISOGG tree, but would prefer a citation from the primary literature regarding the relevant branching points in all regards. The inconsistency here is that you will not be able to use even the earlier trees like 2002 for the papers you so deeply think need to be included.
The application of a single most recent tree makes the some of the results of the earlier articles obsolete and some of the conclusions obsolete. In the R1a paper we solved this problem by presenting both old and new trees and explaining the differences and the changes in the nomenclature.
This talk of sock puppets and unethical needs to stop, Andrew you always drive people to these types of attacks on your character, someday you will learn how to compromise, for the most part I let these crappy Y-DNA pages be your fault and responsibility as you desire to lord over them with an iron sledge hammer, dont cry when you see blood. PB666 yap 22:36, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
All of this stuff can be done without creating disagreement, without me being drafted in, and without you crying as to why I deleted a cherished reference. I was called to the article to give my point of view, as with most of these Y-DNA articles, I don't want to waste 10 seconds on them because they are top heavy with antiquated and opinionated references that amatuers like yourself try to pass off a scientifically meaningful. They are also top-heavy with editors who don't see the value of being encyclopedic (like-you) and who only see these articles as turf-wars to be fought (That is you, and don't deny it).
When it comes to making statements about origins, when it comes to Y chromosome the conclusions should be so powerful, clearcut and unambiguous and the raw data should be clear, not subject to future revision as a result of inadequate STR or SNP sampling _OR_ really bad molecular clocking. This robust point of view is not the case with the vast majority of references in these articles; by and large every citation prior to 2005 is something that is going to be revised and whose conclusions are subject to major shifts. In such cases it is better not to top load articles with stuff that is on weak standing from the day it was published (and given the discrepancy between the TMRCA of mtDNA, which has an cogent ape outgroup, and the 5 fold smaller Y-DNA TMRCA, some discrepancy was obvious). The fact that Cruciani 2011 can go in and reroot the entire Y-DNA tree and move the PMRCA of human Y chromosome 3000 miles, tells us alot about the methods employed in these older studies and it tells us that important papers within the last 3 to 5 years are subject to major criticism in terms of methodological approaches and comprehensiveness in site and population sampling.
When I see articles undertaking molecular clocking in which some coherant ape outgroup is being used as a calibration anchor, then I will start taking the molecular clocking stuff seriously. Until that time most of these SNPs are a sophistrated assemblage of guesses.
The bottom line here is that anyone who is adding conclusions or references that are on such weak foundations that they are repeatedly undercut by future publications is not helping the article, it is very clear that they are hurting the ability for these articles to evolve. Anyone author who tries to pin down the timing of a branching to less than -0.75 to +1.50 relative range is underestimating the confidence range, even at 2011 standards. By 2000 to 2005 standards the range is 5 fold larger. Seriously, in that light does any of the migration event conclusions stand up to statistical scrutiny??? NO!
In such instances when the individual resists making the article more encyclopedic, but instead wastes most of his or her time defending a turf of crappy data, then there is but no other conclusion that the individual is hurting the article. PB666 yap 21:46, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
This is an encyclopedia, foremost this is an encyclopedia, not the technical reference manual for the YCAII=22-22 DYS388≥15 machine.[No andy I know what they are talking about]. Standard Y DNA muck-up. If you think you are avoiding the turf war, really ask yourself the question how much have you done to make the article encyclopedic. PB666 yap 21:23, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Most markers on the Y chromosome have not been identified (Y-DNA studies are the bottom of the bucket relative to genomic DNA analysis), therefore careful tracing is not yet a part of any of these papers. In addition some papers are looking at discrete communities and others are looking at pot-luck assemblages of peoples whose recent ancestry is from many areas where within those areas there is known admixture with other ethnicities. These papers are not good, they are making speculation based on a half-@$$ed assemblage of the facts. PB666 yap 18:34, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I am open to any good explanation of these edits, but if none are forth coming then I expect they will eventually be reverted by someone, because they appear quite unjustified:
1. [1]. Adding {{cn}} tags to sentences, recently adapted from previous versions by User:Genie, which all contain clear referencing in so-called "Harvard" format, with easy-to-click links to the article bibliography.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 15:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
2.
[2] Removal of sourced information about the original identification of the so-called Cohen modal back in 2000, because it is "not really reliable in the context of newer literature". As the sentence just notes the historical fact about when the term and concept was first mentioned in the field, something which all articles about this subject still properly mention and cite, how can this sentence not be reliable? --
Andrew Lancaster (
talk)
15:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
You do not actually read the papers you cite and then make assumptions that are not verifiable, so you cannot comprehend the responses you are getting. Read the source of the information in the supplemental data and then the methodology used before jumping to the conclusion at the end. Your biases are affecting your interpretations of the results. John Lloyd Scharf 19:18, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Just admit you are wrong and stop your
tendentious editing.John Lloyd Scharf 19:48, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Name the "three models." Make a logical argument with quotes from the sources rather than repeating your claim. See Wikipedia:Tendentious_editing and remove the reference to Iran. John Lloyd Scharf 19:48, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Now that the chaff has been removed, .. . . . The origin overwhelmingly being discussed is not J1 origins but a J1c3 subtype. Origin paragraph should be primarily focused on the origin of J1, the topic of the page. This discussion of J1 and J2 and Neolithic markers are brought forth with no evidence of how this corresponds MRCA dates of either J1 or J2. It is problematic in the hypothesis. The classic Neolithic package is defined by settled agriculture and animal husbandry (pottery, cows and cereal). Whereas this confuses the definition arguing for a genetically split neolithic. Second if J1 and J2 split and this was a consequence of cultural diversification in the Neolithic, then we have the fact that J1c3 is neccesarily descendant from J1 and cannot have been born from the precise same time frame, but some later time. I have left the statement concerning Semetic languages; however this is what wiki says on semetic languages.
"The Semitic family is a member of the larger Afroasiatic family, all of whose other five or more branches are based in Africa. Largely for this reason, the ancestors of Proto-Semitic speakers are believed by many to have first arrived in the Middle East from Africa, possibly as part of the operation of the Saharan pump, around the late Neolithic.[7][8] Diakonoff sees Semitic originating between the Nile Delta and Canaan as the northernmost branch of Afroasiatic. Blench even wonders whether the highly divergent Gurage indicate an origin in Ethiopia (with the rest of Ethiopic Semitic a later back migration). However, an opposing theory is that Afroasiatic originated in the Middle East, and that Semitic is the only branch to have stayed put; this view is supported by apparent Sumerian and Caucasian loanwords in the African branches of Afroasiatic.[9] A recent Bayesian analysis of alternative Semitic histories supports the latter possibility[citation needed] and identifies an origin of Semitic languages in the Levant around 3,750 BC with a single introduction from southern Arabia into Africa around 800 BC.[10] "
Given the origin of these languages to the SW and rather late, then there is no neccesary connection with agriculturalist of S anatolia for an earlier period. The origins of the language may significnatly postdate the origin of J1c3 and thus its introduction is speculative. If 2 of the most favored hypotheses are correct, then the speculation on semitic language/gene spread cannot be correct.
21:06, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Those are verifiable dates of age I provided before.
They show a connection with the:
But, then, you cherry pick information, make assumptions that are not verifiable, and edit in your pet theories about the subclades rather than just dealing with the calculated dates of origin for establishing a place of origin. John Lloyd Scharf 19:09, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Try to keep up with the title. This about the section on origins. That is where you contentiously insist on mentioning Iran with no verifiable source. John Lloyd Scharf 21:26, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
1. WP:MEDREV
Finally, with regard to the broader issue of science. "Honesty and the policies of neutrality and No original research demand that we present the prevailing "scientific consensus". Polling a group of experts in the field wouldn't be practical for many editors but often there is an easier way. The scientific consensus can be found in recent, authoritative review articles, textbooks, major up-to-date reference works such as medical dictionaries or scientific encyclopedias, and some forms of monographs. Be aware that many such reference works are many steps removed from the primary literature, and may well be out-of-date in terms of the current consensus. Beware of the over-simplifications likely to be found in condensed dictionaries and encyclopedias.
There is sometimes no single prevailing view because the available evidence does not yet point to a single answer. Because Wikipedia not only aims to be accurate, but also useful, it tries to explain the theories and empirical justification for each school of thought, with reference to published sources. Editors must not, however, create arguments themselves in favor of, or against, any particular theory or position. See Wikipedia:No original research, which is policy. Significant-minority views are welcome in Wikipedia, but must be identified as minority views and not given the same depth of coverage as the majority view. The views of tiny minorities need not be reported. (See Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View.)
As I read the main article the first time I did not find a Neutral Point of View, instead I found the article heavily weighed in speculative hypothesis based on outdated Y chromosomal studies, particularly concerned with Jewish and Islamic migration. As I am reading the wiki guidelines above, antiquated speculation should be downplayed in the article. The way I see it right now is the most recent Y chromosomal papers on the matter and their various hypothesis to explain dispersion are the material which should be focused on, especially important are the confidence intervals of both the frequencies and the molecular clocking, if provided. If there is a debate or contradiction between two papers, or if one paper fails to mention its clocking results this should be pointed out, since it is an opportunity for cherry picking results (e.g. one authors feels confident enough to clock a dispersion event, where the other author does not find a level of confidence).
Andrew has repeated his claim about the references. Of the four sentences I tagged, only one had proper referencing, the other three did not, yet the claims that they were making were speculative and dubious. One editor fixed this be adding foot notes. The more dubious a claim is, the more one needs to make certain that it is obviously referenced, referencing 2 sentences above only invites critique.
Now I know what ANDY is going to do here:
However, if all parties would stop these side rings in this circus and focus on what WP requests of editors with regard to
PB666
yap
16:32, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
PB666 (P Deitiker) continues to delete one of the most well-known and frequently cited speculations about J1 in peer reviewed journals. Discussion on this talk page never gets past me responding, and PB666, being unable or unwilling to answer, starting new discussions elsewhere. Here is the sentence that keeps getting deleted:
Apart from the Jewish " Cohen" haplotype, Semino et al. (2000) associated this DNA profile with the Arab expansion in the seventh century AD, and noted that it was most frequent amongst men in the Middle East and North Africa, but less frequent in Ethiopia and Europe. |
Here are the diffs of PB666 deleting it, with his edit summaries:-
Because PB666 is not one for using the talk page in any practical way I will respond to the edit summaries here in detail:-
"Many authors have proposed STR-based motifs to trace the genealogies of pre-historic or ethno-religious ancestries. Examples are the Dys388*13 allele associated with early neolithic agro–pastoral cultures (King RJ and Underhill P, personal communication); the Galilee and the Dys388*17/YCAIIa/b*22–22 motifs for an Arab ancestry,2, 3 the Cohanim 6-locus motif to link the descendants of a Jewish priesthood.4" |
"We wondered whether clustering and similarities among mismatch curves in the Arabic pool reflect shared evolutionary history, following the hypothesis of a diffusion of J1 chromosomes mediated by the spread of Islam since 650 AD.2, 3, 9" |
"Previous studies of J1-M2672, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 have found it to occur at high frequencies among the Arabic-speaking populations of the Middle East, conventionally interpreted as reflecting the spread of Islam in the first millennium CE.8" |
...So please PB666 define your case in a clear manner, and if necessary let's take it to WP:RSN.
BTW, to cover all points I can find, JohnLloydScharf has mentioned something above which he may have intended to be about this subject.
copy of old comment. do not edit | Your contentions are based on reviews of the 2000 paper and not the information given by Hammer et al.(2009). I have seen the criticisms of the research and they do not stand up to close scrutiny. You are cherry picking - again. John Lloyd Scharf 17:22, 26 August 2011 (UTC) |
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Just in case there is any misunderstanding, the Hammer et al 2009 article cited in our article does not mention the Semino et al 2000 article at all as far as I can see.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 10:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
As I see PB666 and JohnLloydScharf continue discussions on PB666's talkpage, which seem to imply that PB666 aims to keep deleting the passage, I wrack my brain for solutions. I propose 2:-
Looking at the article history, the current "Proposed origin" and "Subclades" sections contain material which was once in the same section. On 23rd August, User:Genie split them up in a series of edits which none of us opposed. However they had a perhaps unfortunate consequence of splitting up discussion so that the doubts about the Arab expansion theory are mentioned in one section only. So the critique of Semino et al (2000) is not together with the summary of it. Here is a diff showing the net effect of Genie's edits. I am going to try to recover some of the old effect. If this resolves all concerns, great! Comments welcome.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:37, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
The P58 marker which defines subgroup '''J1c3''' is common, and was first announced in {{harvtxt|Karafet|Mendez|Meilerman|Underhill|2008}}, but had been announced earlier under the name "Page08" in 2006 in {{Harvtxt|Repping|Van Daalen|Brown|2006}}.<ref name=chiaroni2011/> This haplogroup dominates haplogroup J, and is notable as containing the Jewish "[[Cohen modal haplotype]]", as well as both the so-called "Galilee [[modal]] haplotype" and "P&I Arab modal [[haplotype]]" associated with Palestinians and Israeli Arabs by {{harvtxt|Nebel|Filon|Weiss|Weale|2000}}.<ref name=hammer>{{harvtxt|Hammer|Behar|Karafet|Mendez|2009}}</ref> |
More generally, the J-P58 group has been shown to be closely associated with a large cluster of J1 which had been recognized before the discovery of P58. This cluster was identified by [[short tandem repeat|STR marker]]s haplotypes - specifically YCAII as 22-22, and DYS388 having unusual repeat values of 15 or higher, instead of 13.<ref name=chiaroni2011/> Apart from the Jewish "[[Cohen]]" haplotype, {{harvtxt|Semino|Passarino|Oefner|Lin|2000}} associated this DNA profile with the [[Arab expansion]] in the seventh century AD, and noted that it was most frequent amongst men in the Middle East and North Africa, but less frequent in Ethiopia and Europe. |
Similarly, {{harvtxt|Tofanelli|Ferri|Bulayeva|Caciagli|2009}} refer to an "Arabic" and a "[[Eurasian]]" type of J1. The Arabic type includes [[Arabic]] speakers from [[Maghreb]], [[Sudan]], [[Iraq]] and [[Qatar]], and it is a relatively homogeneous group. This is the group with YCAII=22-22 and high DYS388 values. The more diverse "Eurasian" group includes [[Europeans]], [[Kurds]], [[Iranians]] and [[Ethiopians]] (Ethiopia being outside of Eurasia), and is much more diverse. The authors also say that "Omanis show a mix of Eurasian pool-like and typical Arabic haplotypes as expected, considering the role of corridor played at different times by the Gulf of Oman in the dispersal of [[Asian]] and [[East African]] [[genes]]." |
In contrast to the older proposals of Semino et al in 2000, {{harvtxt|Chiaroni|King|Myres|Henn|2010}} and {{harvtxt|Tofanelli|Ferri|Bulayeva|Caciagli|2009}} agree in doubting that the Islamic expansions are old enough to completely explain the major patterns of J1 frequencies, especially in areas such as Turkey, the Caucausus, and Ethiopia. These areas are notably high in J1* (see below under distribution) and are also regions where the Neolithic arrived with people from the Near East, but they are not Arabic speaking. |
"Many authors have proposed STR-based motifs to trace the genealogies of pre-historic or ethno-religious ancestries. Examples are the Dys388*13 allele associated with early neolithic agro–pastoral cultures (King RJ and Underhill P, personal communication); the Galilee and the Dys388*17/YCAIIa/b*22–22 motifs for an Arab ancestry,2, 3 the Cohanim 6-locus motif to link the descendants of a Jewish priesthood.4" |
"We wondered whether clustering and similarities among mismatch curves in the Arabic pool reflect shared evolutionary history, following the hypothesis of a diffusion of J1 chromosomes mediated by the spread of Islam since 650 AD.2, 3, 9" |
"Previous studies of J1-M2672, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 have found it to occur at high frequencies among the Arabic-speaking populations of the Middle East, conventionally interpreted as reflecting the spread of Islam in the first millennium CE.8" |
Comments please. If this is NOT a good summary of the disagreement, then what is?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 08:37, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
The recent quotes that Andrew quoted from a more recent publications are not properly nuanced. Scientist don't generally call out 'this work is crap'. Instead they begin their critique in the interrogative form. Andrew doesn't understand that because he is not a professional scientist. Should the apriori authors addressed a problem or come to the conclusion they should have. Here is the basic problem with Semino et al. 2000. With the information that they had regarding markers and branching of those markers (at matter that has been discussed on this talk page many times) should they be have been drawing a conclusion at all about origins that we now know needs finely divided marker set to conclude upon.
A fine example of this is the most recent paper by Cruciani et al 2011 on the origin of Haplogroup A (for the references see MolAnth which most of you are members of). Cruciani basically has rerooted the human Y chromosome and re-positioned the PMRCA. The previous position and placement is only a few years old. The principle problem with Y chromosome that they describe is that the marker set that was previously used was inadequate to either describe the basal branches or define its PMRCA. To put this in a more real life perspective, it would be like me in 1492 saying Im going to sail south a few hundred miles, then west and find a new route to India. Of course you can reach India by sailing west, you first have to cross the Isthmus of panama using a canal (which did not exist in 1492), haul a cache of food and water to the Island of Hawaii, then create another cache and Island hop across the pacific and then work against the currents in Indonesia and finally you will reach India. 20 years later of course Magellan tried another southwestern/northwestern route, and he, personally, did not survive the trip. Of course and modern well equipped sailing ship could make the trip with limited difficulty as Columbus described in about the amount of time he described.
This is the same issue, Semino et al. 2000 is making a prediction about the origins of a haplotype in certain populations when he lacks anywhere near the proper background tools (in terms of molecular clocking and the particular branches and origins of those branches that Jews and Arabs have). Consequently the conclusions that are being made are premature and as speculation it is not scientific. As such it should not be included. We can see above, even more contemporary papers can get the conclusions 'way wrong'. This is the basic problem with Y chromosome studies, the level testosterones in the various forms of communication far exceeds the level of evidence.
I stated this on the R1a page and I will restate it here. Why do these conflicts arise on the Y chromosomal pages, we do not see any were the conflict on mtDNA, HLA or other pages marking variable phenotypes. The problem arises because the work from 1990s to the mid-2000s was not based on standard scientific models for deducing genetic history.
The basic problem is that authors are willing to publish conclusions, prematurely, and that willful consumers of popular science are willing to crow-bar these conclusions into wikipedia with little or no understanding of whether the conclusions are worthy to be here or not. As per the major guideline of Wikipedia for science, particularly when a scientific conclusion is questioned, is there a credible secondary reference that has an acceptable level of expertise to critically review the findings and either accept or question those findings. As we can see with Semino et al. 2000 it does not. I am questioning the validity of Semino et al to make these conclusions based on the evidence he derived from his 2000 data using the tools available at hand at the time. If Christopher Columbus took off from the Madeiera Islands in 1492 and showed up in India a year later saying he sailed west, would you, could you, believe him. Christopher columbus instead discovered the Caribbean, he thought he discovered the eastern islands off of India. Do we argue in Wikipedia that columbus discovered the Eastern Route to India, yes or no? Why because Christopher columbus was driven by an idea and he interpreted his observations in light of his preconcieved beliefs. The Norse facing the northern version of same people identified them as Skraelings (an animal/people that had mythical origins). There preconcieved notions and bias led their observations. Columbus did not know how round the earth was or the distance he would need to travel to reach India. IOW he did not know how many days he would need to travel (his maritime measures were off by a magnitude) and he did not know how to identify India when he got there.
Semino thought he has discovered how these various Y markers got into various semetic speaking populations, but the reality at that time we had inadequate information on Y clocking (the Y clocking estimates at that time are no known to be off by almost a magnitude), nor did he have a sufficiently representative selection of markers. Therefore Semino is being driven by his bias that the molecular clock they where applying was accurate (it was not) and that the marker set they were using was adequate (it was not). It is therefore akin to the same mythology applied by Columbus and the Vikings. PB666 yap 22:46, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
It does not matter wether or not he was correct or near correct, what matters here is it appropriate for us to use speculation that branches so far away from the tree of data in which it was derived.
PB666
yap
22:46, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Here is WP:V:"It does not matter wether or not he was correct or near correct, what matters here is it appropriate for us to use speculation that branches so far away from the tree of data in which it was derived."
Your demands are simply not in line with the way this project works.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 21:03, 14 September 2011 (UTC)"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that information in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."
In other words, they just make a common sense observation about RELATIVE diversity, and then say that this might be caused by the Arab expansion. This is very consistent with Chiaroni et al and Tofanelli et al, who both mainly emphasize that the Arab expansions can not explain everything.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 07:55, 15 September 2011 (UTC)"The lower internal variance of J-M267 in the Middle East and North Africa, relative to Europe and Ethiopia, is suggestive of two different migrations. [...] These results are consistent with the proposal that this haplotype was diffused in recent time by Arabs who, mainly from the 7th century a.d., expanded to northern Africa (Nebel et al. 2002)."
The citable source of the information is given in the Supplementary Online Material for Karafet et al. http://genome.cshlp.org/content/suppl/2008/04/02/gr.7172008.DC1/SOM_2.pdf
It says, and I quote: "Although the phylogeny is under constant revision, the International Society of Genetic Genealogy Haplotype 2010 Tree provides a catalog of current refinements ( http://www.isogg.org/tree/) that were followed in this study." That is not a citation. It is a note where the citations may be found. The citations for the article are at the bottom of the article. Nice try, but no cigar. John Lloyd Scharf 02:50, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
There you go again, recasting what I said and lying about it. I did not say NEVER. Your ISOGG and JOGG do not qualify. Stick to the policy that tertiary sources should not be used in place of secondary sources for detailed discussion. John Lloyd Scharf 02:19, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
We should strive to use the latest tree, I have no problem with the ISOGG tree, but would prefer a citation from the primary literature regarding the relevant branching points in all regards. The inconsistency here is that you will not be able to use even the earlier trees like 2002 for the papers you so deeply think need to be included.
The application of a single most recent tree makes the some of the results of the earlier articles obsolete and some of the conclusions obsolete. In the R1a paper we solved this problem by presenting both old and new trees and explaining the differences and the changes in the nomenclature.
This talk of sock puppets and unethical needs to stop, Andrew you always drive people to these types of attacks on your character, someday you will learn how to compromise, for the most part I let these crappy Y-DNA pages be your fault and responsibility as you desire to lord over them with an iron sledge hammer, dont cry when you see blood. PB666 yap 22:36, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
All of this stuff can be done without creating disagreement, without me being drafted in, and without you crying as to why I deleted a cherished reference. I was called to the article to give my point of view, as with most of these Y-DNA articles, I don't want to waste 10 seconds on them because they are top heavy with antiquated and opinionated references that amatuers like yourself try to pass off a scientifically meaningful. They are also top-heavy with editors who don't see the value of being encyclopedic (like-you) and who only see these articles as turf-wars to be fought (That is you, and don't deny it).
When it comes to making statements about origins, when it comes to Y chromosome the conclusions should be so powerful, clearcut and unambiguous and the raw data should be clear, not subject to future revision as a result of inadequate STR or SNP sampling _OR_ really bad molecular clocking. This robust point of view is not the case with the vast majority of references in these articles; by and large every citation prior to 2005 is something that is going to be revised and whose conclusions are subject to major shifts. In such cases it is better not to top load articles with stuff that is on weak standing from the day it was published (and given the discrepancy between the TMRCA of mtDNA, which has an cogent ape outgroup, and the 5 fold smaller Y-DNA TMRCA, some discrepancy was obvious). The fact that Cruciani 2011 can go in and reroot the entire Y-DNA tree and move the PMRCA of human Y chromosome 3000 miles, tells us alot about the methods employed in these older studies and it tells us that important papers within the last 3 to 5 years are subject to major criticism in terms of methodological approaches and comprehensiveness in site and population sampling.
When I see articles undertaking molecular clocking in which some coherant ape outgroup is being used as a calibration anchor, then I will start taking the molecular clocking stuff seriously. Until that time most of these SNPs are a sophistrated assemblage of guesses.
The bottom line here is that anyone who is adding conclusions or references that are on such weak foundations that they are repeatedly undercut by future publications is not helping the article, it is very clear that they are hurting the ability for these articles to evolve. Anyone author who tries to pin down the timing of a branching to less than -0.75 to +1.50 relative range is underestimating the confidence range, even at 2011 standards. By 2000 to 2005 standards the range is 5 fold larger. Seriously, in that light does any of the migration event conclusions stand up to statistical scrutiny??? NO!
In such instances when the individual resists making the article more encyclopedic, but instead wastes most of his or her time defending a turf of crappy data, then there is but no other conclusion that the individual is hurting the article. PB666 yap 21:46, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
This is an encyclopedia, foremost this is an encyclopedia, not the technical reference manual for the YCAII=22-22 DYS388≥15 machine.[No andy I know what they are talking about]. Standard Y DNA muck-up. If you think you are avoiding the turf war, really ask yourself the question how much have you done to make the article encyclopedic. PB666 yap 21:23, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Most markers on the Y chromosome have not been identified (Y-DNA studies are the bottom of the bucket relative to genomic DNA analysis), therefore careful tracing is not yet a part of any of these papers. In addition some papers are looking at discrete communities and others are looking at pot-luck assemblages of peoples whose recent ancestry is from many areas where within those areas there is known admixture with other ethnicities. These papers are not good, they are making speculation based on a half-@$$ed assemblage of the facts. PB666 yap 18:34, 18 November 2011 (UTC)