![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 |
In the passage below
E1b1b and E1b1b1 are quite common amongst populations speaking an Afro-Asiatic language. According to at least some theories on the origins of this linguistic group, such as those advanced by Christopher Ehret, Afro-Asiatic and E1b1b1 may have dispersed amongst the same populations from the same point of origin, making E-M35 a useful tool for speculation into the origins of Afro-Asiatic (Ehret et al. (2004)[9]).
E haplogroup is rather connected to Niger-Kongo and Nilo-Saharan families,and the theory of Ehret is not widely accepted as the few common roots and similar grammar between Semitic and Kushitic languages are merely borrowings and spracbund that are due to different waves of J haplogroup middle-easterners migrations(which is obvious in the presence of J1 haplotype among Berbers,Egyptians,Ethiopian and Somalis whereas it's impossible to think that these J1 haplotypes are due to Berberistaion/Somalisation... of Arabs or Semites)to Africa but these African languages still have heavy African substratum and lexicon.
Have you questionned yourself why the called Afroasiatic words related to numbers,animals,relationship etc.. are so different whereas these basic words are always similar in the widely accepted language families such as Semitic,Turkic,IE,Finno-Ugric etc..?
You can read the text below
I’m having a rethink about Afro Asiatic’s origin after having a good look at the reconstructed nouns.
Particularly those dealing with with animals. I had a brief look through the nouns for PAA, and quite striking was the number of words for goats and sheep. Also included were horses and camels. Since goats, horses and sheep and camels were not native to Holocene Africa prior to the neolithic, I’m reconsidering my support of an African origin for proto Afro Asiatic. Although, as has been kindly pointed out, the reconstructions are all pretty hazy for PAA, but still it’s suspicious.
Another factor making me reconsider is the dating suggested for the languages. The presence of goats and sheep (many and varied terms) also gives an oldest possible date to the last node (a languages TMRCA) for Cushitic, which is a pastoral language of sheep, goat and cattle herders. Since Cushitic is sub Saharan, very relevant is the oldest known date for the arrival of ovicaprines in the Sudan, which is about 5,500 years BP ( Esh Shaheinab, Sudan). This would suggest the proposed 10k date for proto Cushitic is off by about 45%- although this may just be it’s last node and the 10k date for it’s seperation may be correct.
Relevant to this is the R1b Y chromosome present in the Ouldeme and the Hausa, both Chadic speaking groups, one in Cameroon and one in the Sudan. The Hausa have R1b ( R-P25* (R1b1*) at about 41%, and Ouldeme at 95%. This is quite a bizarre find for groups in the middle of Africa, as R1b is typically European and West Asian. It would be a logical suggestion that the Ouldeme and Hausa are quite closely related paternally, and may point to an East to West route for Chadic speakers- suggested by Blench in the ‘The Westward wanderings of Cushitic Pastoralists’- although there have been suggestions the Hausa moved from West to east recently, which would make the R1b in Cameroon possibly from a north to south route across the Sahara.
This particular branch of R1b has been dated to an entry of about 4,000 years ago- but bearing in mind the older (2002) papers tend to seriously underestimate the date of the Y chromosomes – a pet peeve- the oldest entry date for it at 8,000 BP would be more reasonable, and a good match for the Neolithic sheep and goat pastoralists arriving in Africa from West Asia. It doesn’t do my older theory of M78/M1 being linked to the spread of Afro Asiatic any good though. Oh well.
The coalescence age of the African haplotype 117, which we estimated as 4,100 years (95% CI 2,400–8,060 years), could thus represent a date for such an expansion and a lower limit for the time of entry into Africa.
From this paper.
This all has some relevance to Ehrets dating of Proto Nilo Saharan (both families dated by glottochronology). He gives the same 15k date for Nilo Saharan as for proto Afro Asiatic.. so I’m thinking 10-9,000 bp for Nilo Saharan too. This also brings proto Northern Sudanic into the outer estimate for the Neolithic in Africa (7,000) although it’s unlikely as they have a dearth of terms for pastoralism and agriculture. His dates seem to vary from 35% to 45% off the possible, which may be due to the difference in geographical points of origin in proto Cushitic and Proto Sahelian, so I’m assuming proto Sahelian is a little more Northerly in origin than proto Cushitic and have adjusted the dates for it for a ‘best fit’. Even if it does give a close date for age of separation fro the sub groups, Ehret never seems to take into account there may have been more recent nodes to account for the pastoralist terms.
This doesn’t really support Omotic as an afro Asiatic language, as it shows no proto words for pastoralism before it’s split. But it has been pointed out by several linguists that it has no more in common with Afro Asiatic than it does with it’s other neighbouring language groups, so it’s AA status is pretty suspect to start with.
Edit:
A little more DNA evidence has come out showing a pre Neolithic population movement into North and East Africa dating to 11-10k ago, involving J1 (Y) and H (mt DNA) which coincide with the IM/Capsian transition in North Africa. This could be the reason for the odd structure of the tree; Cushitic languages are the result of an earlier AA population expansion into East Africa from the near East. This expansion (as far as I can tell) seems to start about 13,500 BP from southern Turkey? I’ll need to dig into it a bit more. This cultural expansion may have been of a food ‘managing’ culture as opposed to food gathering or producing cultures, a proto Neolithic expansion wave of people that kept wild animals (a domestication step) and harvested and planted seeds from the wild. There are domesticated seeds from Syria at 12,500 BP so the people of the Turkey/near East area were definitely doing something along those lines at the right date.
Humanbyrace ( talk) 12:10, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Humanbyrace ( talk) 12:18, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
The present text of the Wikipedia article does not say that there is an accepted theory, but actually it could be changed to be a bit more assertive. See my review article about this subject here http://www.jogg.info/51/index.html . Several of the major genetics papers which considered E1b1b suggested a link to Afroasiatic, and my article goes on to show the arguments still look good when considered both in detail and from a multi-disciplinary perspective. The only person who ever questioned this proposal, an Australian archaeologist named Peter Bellwood, effectively really only said that genetic evidence is useless. He did not address any particular evidence as such. The theories you are mentioning come from a blog so you can't use them on Wikipedia. They are very casual and indecisive anyway.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 14:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Despite my constant requests to try to avoid these discussion sections becoming too long to edit on all servers, User:Causteau has filled up a few more sections with very repetitive and long postings which quote themselves constantly and appear not to stick to the subject. He now demands an explanation about why I asked him to keep separate discussions in separate sections, so despite some concerns I have that this is a distraction, here it is.
Firstly let me reassure Causteau that I did not accuse him of moving any text on the talk page. I stated reasonably clearly, I thought, that I was going to move some text. Sorry for any misunderstanding, but on the other hand please let's not spend time writing about how outrageous it would be IF someone would do something they haven't done yet, such as when Causteau waxed poetic about how "diabolical" it was that I would "undoubtedly complain about [him moving text] to an administrator". I guess we can fill many talk pages with outrage about things that MIGHT happen.
Obviously there are currently two specific discussions about two specific sets of words on this Wikipedia article. Each has its own discussion sections.
I believe it is best that we keep these two discussions apart. I think anyone looking at the discussion will see that for this discussion to get anywhere Causteau needs to give clarity about his what his points are, so all of this confusion of different issues, including all the personal stuff, is not helpful.
So to now repeat the question outstanding for this section, what is the source for specifically putting in wording that means that the misinformation continued from 2005 to 2009? The source can not be a 2005 article, and it can not be a Wikipedia talkpage, so what is it?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
"But in a larger context, I [am] not convinced that it is accurate and not overly simplistic to designate a group "African" because the parental UEP occurred in Africa. I mean, if we go back far enough, all genetic groups have their origins in Africa. Would it be accurate to inform a Irish descendant with R1b results that his ultimate origins were really Middle Eastern/Anatolian? Or that those Italians with J2 results were really Middle Easternerns? Even if those J2's have been in Europe for 10,000 and have haplotypes essentially restricted to Europe? By labeling E3b "African," we risk ignoring the very historical and genetic complexity, diversity and unusual population distribution of the E3b group as a whole."
"In a study about the complexity of Jewish DNA, Coffman-Levy (2005) wrote that although E1b1b1 (otherwise known as E-M35) "arose in East Africa", "E3b is often incorrectly described as “African,” leaving a misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup", and that such misinformation about this haplogroup continued to pervade the public and media at least until the time of writing in 2005."
"In a study about the complexity of Jewish DNA, Coffman-Levy (2005) writes that although E1b1b1 (otherwise known as E-M35) "arose in East Africa", "E3b is often incorrectly described as “African,” leaving a misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup", and that such misinformation about this haplogroup continues to pervade the public and media."
"Unfortunately, misinformation about these haplogroups continues to pervade the public and media. Haplogroup E3b is often incorrectly described as “African,” leaving a misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup. Haplogroup J2, as previously discussed, is often incorrectly equated with J1 and described as “Jewish” or “Semitic,” despite the fact that it is present in a variety of non-Jewish Mediterranean and Northern European populations. And haplogroup G is rarely discussed in depth; its origin and distribution remain poorly understood."
"It is really up to the writers of this article to decide whether they want to reference my assertion regarding bias (or media bias) in the article (or even reference me at all!). As more and more research is conducted and DNA articles are released, perhaps there is less bias and misunderstanding about haplogroups like E3b. Although I think the public today is much better educated about genetic groups, there is still a very strong temptation to attach labels and to simplify what is almost always a very complex genetic history."
Why whould you LIE about what someone said unless you have an agenda and are an extremist? Go ahead and debate me: all I have to say is you will not stop twisting what Ellen said. The Count of Monte Cristo ( talk) 23:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
"But in a larger context, I not convinced that it is accurate and not overly simplistic to designate a group "African" because the parental UEP occurred in Africa. I mean, if we go back far enough, all genetic groups have their origins in Africa. Would it be accurate to inform a Irish descendant with R1b results that his ultimate origins were really Middle Eastern/Anatolian? Or that those Italians with J2 results were really Middle Easternerns? Even if those J2's have been in Europe for 10,000 and have haplotypes essentially restricted to Europe? By labeling E3b "African," we risk ignoring the very historical and genetic complexity, diversity and unusual population distribution of the E3b group as a whole."
"It is really up to the writers of this article to decide whether they want to reference my assertion regarding bias (or media bias) in the article (or even reference me at all!). As more and more research is conducted and DNA articles are released, perhaps there is less bias and misunderstanding about haplogroups like E3b. Although I think the public today is much better educated about genetic groups, there is still a very strong temptation to attach labels and to simplify what is almost always a very complex genetic history."
Andrew I apologize for implying that you have a agenda and are an extremist ): sorry. The Count of Monte Cristo ( talk) 21:34, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
In the editing I just did of the Coffman-Levy citation I have gone through several steps and explained each change step by step. Please, everyone, take a few breaths and go through the editing history step by step. I have tried to find a wording which actually even keeps the critical words according to Causteau, but properly calls them a "sense" of what could be meant. Concerning the issue of contemporaneity I've taken on board the most sensible critique I could read of Causteau, and shortened the wording, just making it simple. The current version follows.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 21:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
In a study about the complexity of Jewish DNA, Coffman-Levy (2005) writes that although E1b1b1 "arose in East Africa", it is "often incorrectly described as 'African'," in the sense that it creates a "misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup". She cites E1b1b as one of several examples of Y haplogroups (including also J1, J2, and G) too simplistically associated with a particular geographical or ethnic background. [1] In particular, she writes that "various branches and sub-branches of haplogroup E had very different evolutionary histories and distinct migration patterns" while, as will be discussed below, "certain sub-clades appear to have been present in Europe and Asia for thousands of years".
"To all, thank you for the warm welcome. Causteau, you have restated my argument quite eloquently. It is precisely what I was trying to convey."
"I do not, however, have any objection at all to removing my statement about public and media bias."
"When I wrote the article, there was an extremely strong bias against acknowledging the diversity and complexity of Jewish DNA results. There was instead a strong urge on the part of many researchers and lay geneticists to find primarily what I would describe as "non-European" origins for all Jewish DNA results. In my opinion, that bias tended to corrupt the research in some cases."
"I also recall quite clearly that at the time I was writing the article, I was also examining and corresponding with researchers at AncestrybyDNA. I was disturbed by their so-called "analysis" of Jewish autosomal results, which were never published or subject to peer review. One particular section on their website indicated "African" ancestry for Jewish DNA. Another was "Middle Eastern." There was no mention of "European" - that would have undermined what I suspected was their attempt to insure that Jewish ancestry was seen primarily as "non-European" in origin. Although they provided an autosomal test for consumers, no autosomal studies were cited. Instead, the "evidence" presented by AncestrybyDNA was exclusively based on Y chromosome results such as the E3b study from Semino. And because E3b was deemed an "African" haplogroup, then it allegedly supported AncestrybyDNA's assertion that Jews were primarly "African" (as well as "Middle Eastern" and hence "non-European") in their ancestry."
"It was, of course, terribly biased and scientifically unsupportable, but they were able to use these ideas quite effectively to assert "African" ancestry for Jews. Of course, they weren't alleging African ancestry for Europeans with significant E3b frequencies. Instead, they used selective labeling and emphasis."
"This is merely one disturbing example of what was happening at that time in the research community, the media and the reporting of DNA results. The misrepresentations were, in my opinion, quite intentional and also very widespread. They were certainly not limited to these companies. It is my understanding that AncestrybyDNA and DNAPrint have now modified their websites and this misinformation about the alleged "African" ancestry of Jews is no longer present."
"It is really up to the writers of this article to decide whether they want to reference my assertion regarding bias (or media bias) in the article (or even reference me at all!). As more and more research is conducted and DNA articles are released, perhaps there is less bias and misunderstanding about haplogroups like E3b. Although I think the public today is much better educated about genetic groups, there is still a very strong temptation to attach labels and to simplify what is almost always a very complex genetic history."
"From the above, it's clear that she is talking about how E3b is constantly and incorrectly labeled as "African" in the public and the media (in the same way that J2 is described as "Jewish" or "Semitic") simply because it happens to be a sub-clade of haplogroup E (in the same way that J2 is equated with J1 simply because they both happen to be sub-clades of haplogroup J). She believes that this is incorrect, for one thing, because E3b is found in many non-African Asian and European populations (similar to how J2 is found in many non-Jewish European populations), and because not all of E3b's sub-clades have an origin in Africa (e.g. E-V13, E-M34). She also thinks it's incorrect because, unlike, say, E3a, whose presence outside of Africa is almost always attributed to the slave trade, E3b was principally spread by Neolithic migrants, Berber/Islamic peoples, and Roman soldiers i.e. its "complex history"."
"This quote is also very relevant to the Origins section because the section states that "concerning the origins of the E1b1b lineage, Bosch et al. (2001), Semino et al. (2004), Cruciani et al. (2004, 2006, and 2007), point to evidence that not only E1b1b (E-M215), but also both it's parent lineage E1b1 (E-P2), and its dominant sub-clade E1b1b1 (E-M35) probably all first appeared in East Africa between 20,000 and 47,500 years ago", which gives the impression that E1b1b1/E3b as a whole is "African" just because its parent clade and defining mutation perhaps have an origin in Africa -- and this despite the wide distribution of E3b amongst populations outside of Africa, the actual size of each of said non-African populations, how those non-African populations acquired E3b in the first place, and the origins of sub-clades of E3b that lie outside of Africa. This is actually the very sort of thing Coffman-Levy is railing against."
I have been asked by AL to mediate a dispute. In fact this is difficult. The current ongoing battle is ruining the main-page in terms of encyclopedic content. This page is probably 3 times longer than it should be given comparison with other Y-haplogroup pages and is not written so a highschool student would understand it, let alone interesting enough that they might read it. Some ways the article could be improved:
In section:Other names, . . .
The current phylogenetic terminology "E1b1b" and "E1b1b1" was proposed by Karafet et al. (2008). This paper was intended to be an update of the "Y Chromosome Consortium"(YCC (2002)). The YCC first formalized the original phylogenetic nomenclature - "E3b" (E-M215) and "E3b1" (E-M35) - which is still found widely especially in older literature.
This is not encyclopedic. The entire section is made of one or two sentence paragraphs. Each paragraph should be no more than one sentence, condensed and wikified, in a paragraphed. References should be at the end of sentences and avoid name dropping midsentence. Unless the author is an official or it is an official nomenclature commisions and that commision needs to have its own wikipage where it credentials are made clear. PB666 yap
In Origins:
Concerning the origins of the E1b1b lineage, Bosch et al. (2001), Semino et al. (2004)[15], Cruciani et al. (2004)[16], (2006)[17], and (2007)[18], ...
The 11th grader who, for whatever reason just clicked on the section head has switched to the article about Britney Spears. This is not the way to write an encyclopedic article.
In Subclades of E1b1b1 (E-M35):
As mentioned above, nearly all E1b1b lineages are within E1b1b1 (defined by M35). Cruciani et al. (2004) found 2 out of 34 Ethiopian Amhara tested, to be M215 positive but M35 negative, and therefore in the paragroup "E-M215*". More recently, Cadenas et al. (2007) found one more E-M215* individual in Yemen, just across the Red Sea from the Amhara, out of 62 people tested there. [New paragraph] Turning to E-M35, the most current phylogeny of E1b1b1 includes the individuals with no known sub-clade mutations (who are therefore said to be in the "ancestral state" referred to as E1b1b1* or E-M35*) plus seven known "derived" branches, which are defined by the following SNPs: M78, M81, M123, M281, V6, P72, and M293, all of which are discussed below.
Yikes! Folks, think about the reader or the encyclopedia, first. If its this complicated make a picture, a star diagram. For situations were you have a subclad and a particular distribution, make a table. I can go on but I am not. PB666 yap
The conflict of Interest claim. WP:COI is clearly at play. Wikipedia is not a battleground not even for scientist.
Where advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Wikipedia, that editor stands in a conflict of interest. COI editing is strongly discouraged. When editing causes disruption to the encyclopedia through violation of policies such as neutral point of view, what Wikipedia is not, and notability, accounts may be blocked. COI editing also risks causing public embarrassment outside of Wikipedia for the individuals and groups being promoted.
Please see: WP:NOTTEXTBOOK, WP:INDISCRIMINATE, WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND. To simply state this for my fellow scientist: if your edits are not for the improvement of the article as a wikified encyclopedic entry (See WP:MOS) designed for a highschool reading and interest level, then you may have a conflict of interest in what you are editing.
Recommendation: This article is grossly non-encyclopedic. Since deleting it would be a conflict of interest I recommend deleting section by section an moving each section to the talk page. The section should then be criticized on the talk page for content, rewritten, and agreed upon, then returned to the main page in its edited form.
Talkpage recommendation: Talk pages are for the improvement of the article, not for personal attacks and counterattacks. One can discriminate whether a discussion is personal attack or working toward improvements when there is a generally hostile critiques but no offers of compromises toward the improvement. Much of what is on this talk page can be refactored to the bit bucket. This talk page on this obscure Y-sub-sub-sub-haplogroup has 6 archives???!!!! Sheeeeesh.
And since I am supposed to disclose any COI I have: I am an ex-participant in the UseNet group sci.anthropology.paleo since almost its creation, I am the owner and chief moderator of the Yahoo DNAanthro - molecular anthropology newsgroup. I have watched many arguments concerning origins on the UseNet and many have appeared in various other groups.
I have seen my fair share of highly imaginative 'extrapolations' of origins based on the Y-chromosome. Its a shame people don't have the same interest in HLA as they have in Y-chromosome. I would point out that the tMRCA of mtDNA in the two most current papers is 192 kya and 194 ky+/-32kya (Gonder et al 2007), my own estimate based on several techniques is around 230kya. The TMRCA listed in the Y-chromosomal Adam is "37,000–49,000 years ago [7] to 51,000–411,000 years ago [8]". The most recent mtDNA article suggests an exodus from Africa 55 to 75kya when the archaeological evidence from India, china and the Levant suggest human spread from central or south central Africa to be well older than this.[e.g. the dating of liujiang (67-150 kya), the archaeological finds in eastern India dating to 80 kya and LM3 which parsimoniously dates to about 52 kya, the earliest dates for Skhul and Qahfez to 125 kya] Indeed the most recent paper on mtDNA which deals with the issue of selection in the coding region (although by my standard not sufficiently enough) suggests that not long after the SeqMRCA formed that the population within Africa grew significantly. In general, since Vigilante et al established the first TMRCA for mtDNA there has been a recognize understatement of TMRCAs based on a number of assumptions that have proven to be just that - assumptions. These assumptions have been applied across the board and recently came up with a highly erroneous guess of the age of two 'popular' autosomal genes, FoxP2 and MC1R. As a consequence the spread from Africa of Y-chromosome is problematic and inconsistent with two independent sets of facts.
In either case the datings and the importance of Y-derived migrations needs to be questioned in terms of its relevance to molecular anthropology. Despite the rather critical weaknesses of Y chromosome as settlement or migration markers, in its capability to coordinate with archaeological evidence (i.e. that Roman british migration could have been the Neolithic migration that occurred 5100BC), ...... numerous instances on the Internet by some 'not-so-fact-based'-groups are made ascerting Y chromosomes to various historic and prehistoric migrations. The few papers that I have read on the issue of effective male population sizes suggest a male to female effective population size of 1:2. In the studies recent enough to compare HLA haplotypes, mtDNA, and Y this has been shown to be roughly true. Past this mixing ratio, Y chromosome often undergoes rapid differential selection and within 100s of years can shift frequencies rapidly as a consequence of the popularity of a name or a paternal (ruling) line.
Why am I presenting this? Because the level of information in this article is disproportionately large relative to its certainty in dating and relevance to overall population genetics in humans. This is a guide to which information can be trimmed down by willing editors with some confidence, particularly primary literature which draws an opinion that is not likely to be correct or more importantly (coming from the moderator and long term observer of molecular anthropology - their confidence is overstated, confidence interval is undersized, and conclusions do not account for all possibilities). Be conservative, if there is doubt about a conclusion, present the results, hold the conclusion. I have no better advice to offer on the subject than this, it is my opinion that if all editors agree to re-examine the literature and assume that these confidence intervals are larger than stated, and hold back or remove statements that, from a more distant perspective, could have many interpretations, then this battleground atmosphere can be resolved into a cooperative atmosphere. This allows the editors to create a shorter and more pleasantly read article. This is an encyclopedia, please the interest and reader not the ego. PB666 yap 14:17, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
freq | ||
[2] | Population | (%) |
Luo ( Kenya) | 6.2 | |
Yaounde ( Cameroon) | 4.4 | |
Shona ( Harare, Zimbabwe) | 4.0 | |
Nandi (Kenya) | 4.0 | |
Tswana ( South Africa) | 3.7 | |
Natal Zulu (South African) | 3.5 | |
Baloch ( Iran) | 3.5 | |
Kenya | 2.8 | |
Pazeh (Taiwan) | 2.7 | |
Lusaka ( Zambia) | 2.3 | |
Bakola Pygmy (Cameroon) | 2.0 | |
Beti ( Cameroon) | 1.7 | |
Oman | 1.3 | |
Bamileke (Cameroon ) | 1.3 | |
United Arab Emerates | 1.1 | |
Southern Portugal | 1.0 | |
Kampala ( Uganda) | 0.9 | |
Sudanese | 0.5 | |
Delhi ( India) | 0.5 | |
Brazil Parana Mulatto | 0.5 | |
Romanian | 0.3 | |
Chinese ( Hong Kong, China) | 0.2 | |
Shijiazhuang Tianjian ( Beijing, China) | 0.2 | |
South Korea | 0.1 |
==Other names, and history of the classification==
The current [[phylogenetic]] terminology "E1b1b" and "E1b1b1" was proposed by {{Harvcoltxt|Karafet et al.|2008}}. This paper was intended to be an update of the "Y Chromosome Consortium"({{Harvcoltxt|YCC|2002}}). The YCC first formalized the original phylogenetic nomenclature - "E3b" (E-M215) and "E3b1" (E-M35) - which is still found widely especially in older literature. It was also the 2002 consortium which proposed guidelines on the mutation nomenclature, "E-M215" and "E-M35". The mutation-based clade names have increasingly been used since then because they avoid the confusion which comes from the increasingly frequent discoveries of new SNP mutations - for example when older and newer literature is being compared. Prior to {{Harvcoltxt|Cruciani et al.|2004}}, both E1b1b and E1b1b1, not yet distinguished at that time, had been referred to as '''Hg21''' ('''Haplogroup 21''') within {{Harvcoltxt|Zerjal et al.|1999}}'s nomenclature, or as '''Eu4''' according to {{Harvcoltxt|Semino et al.|2000}}'s classification. They were also within {{Harvcoltxt|Underhill et al.|2001}}'s "Group III", and in terms of "p49/TaqI" tests, E-M35 came within Haplotype V. (It should be generally be kept in mind that some older haplogroup testing methods could not distinguish between related clades in a way perfectly consistent with more recent findings.) Other older names are referred to in the YCC 2002 report in the referenced articles, but are less common in the literature.
E1b1b and E1b1b1 are the current accepted names by the Y Chromosome Consortium. [3] The nomenclature E3b (E-M215) and E3b1 (E-M35), respectively[?] is used to designate the same haplogroups within the older literature. [4] Prior to 2004 both haplogroups were referred to collectively as Haplogroup 21 (HG21) or Eu4. citation needed Prior to this the two haplgroups tested as "Group III" with "p49/TaqI" and E1b1b1 was identified within HaplotypeV. citation needed
'==Current and previous names==
E1b1b and E1b1b1 are the currently accepted names found in the proposals of the Y Chromosome Consortium(YCC). [3] The nomenclature E3b (E-M215) and E3b1 (E-M35) respectively were the YCC defined names used to designate the same haplogroups in older literature with E-M35 branching as a separate subclade of E-M215 in 2004. [4] [5] Prior to 2002 these haplogroups were not designated in a consistent way, and nor was their relationship to other related clades within haplogroup E and haplogroup DE. citation needed
The article is almost exclusively devoted to the discussion of the E1b1b1 subclade and descendant clades. Why is nothing on E1b1b presented in this article, does it represent the state of the literature? Is there a branch diagram available that can be used as a guide to all the E1b1b1 variants. PB666 yap 14:50, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Here is how I think the phylogeny should be displayed.
PB666
yap
In the article E1b1b is described as having arisen in or near the Horn of Africa. However the sources cited use different naming conventions.
None of these scholars use the term "Horn of Africa". Though parsimony indicates that E1b1b most likely did emerge in Ethiopia because M215 with ancestral M35 was found in ethiopia. It should be noted that E1b1b is a sibling of E1b1a and thus have a direct common ancestor E1b, E1b1a dispersed from West Africa. So where this common ancestor lived may have important implications for the origins of E1b1b. It could be that E1b1a also originated in East Africa but spread west accross the Sahel. Another complication is that E1b1a seems to have swamped all pre-existing lineages with the Bantu Expansion. Blench speculates for instance that Cushitic speakers may have had a much more southerly distribution prior to the Bantu Expansion. [3]
The section on the origins is dominated by a large paragraph devoted to quotes by Ellen Levy Coffman. However she is a family lawyer, should her quotes be given such prominence. This has been previously discussed here Talk:Khazars#DNA_Evidence Xavier Bolton ( talk) 20:23, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Just to extend one thought AL made on his talk page. There are aspects, probably many on the X-chromosome that have undergone no significant recombination in the last 2.5 million years. PDHA1 is one example. These particular sites paint a much more complex picture of human evolution than do Y, in fact I did a comparison between expected fixation times versus observed fixation times in 22 X-linked loci and they pretty much agreed with a fixation time of about 500ky, of course made the assumption the constriction that caused fixation in many of these loci ended about 150+kya. That has to be contrasted to the Y-chromosome which has only a ploidy of 3 fold lower than X and its fixation time occurs after the putative constriction and is one 10th the age, even if we assume effective ploidy of 1.66 (X) vs. .33 (Y) that is a ratio of 5, still 2 fold lower and occurring after the constriction ended when the population was larger. I would discuss median population sizes versus ages but the fact is that the last fixation event for a given haplotype makes further backward analysis impossible . . . . Y-chromosome may be haploid and the picture may be simple, but the unfortunately it lives in its own self-explained genetic universe.
"E1b1b (E-M215) and its dominant sub-clade E1b1b1 (E-M35) are believed to have first appeared in or near the Horn of Africa[18] about 22,400 years ago."
Without a confidence range this cannot be accurate past the first decimal place. In fact I would say greater than 20,000 years ago and leave it at that.
Here is another one (again I don't know who wrote these)
"The authors believe there were "at least 2 episodes between 23.9–17.3 ky and 18.0–5.9 ky ago".
The second episode has a credible confidence (at 1SD equalling their range) but the first 17.3-23.9 is less than the calibration error, it would not even consider random factors associated with the sequences evolution, not withstanding the issue of that pertain to Y descrepancies. The other thing is what do we care what the authors 'believe', what does their data suggest are the limits of the argument what can a consensus generate. This is why wiki likes reviews as sources of information, it is supposed to be up to a reviewer to digests beliefs, look at results and formulate a structure that meshes various sorts of information together into something better. If there are papers that handle confidence carefully then we can probably include those dates, but if their tightly unrealistic, I would say these are two much opinion and too little objectivity. PB666 yap 03:26, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Continuing thanks to User:Pdeitiker for his efforts here. I hope won't mind my ignorant question about the subject of changing the referencing system.
Most haplogroup articles I've worked on or looked at have a horrible mixture of referencing styles which makes it very difficult to edit them without loosing the references, or doubling them up several times. Most, unlike E1b1b, are full of broken links, and incompletely referenced end-notes. Often editors don't have time, and hope someone will fix it all up later.
Therefore some time ago I started using Harvard style references (e.g. Lancaster (2009)) in E1b1b. There is a template for this on Wikipedia which I find works really well in conjunction with a nice neat bibliography. So I built that up.
Frankly (call this a COI if you want to) I now sometimes come to the E1b1b article in order to get my references right when working on other articles. This is the only one where you can find the references quickly and easily.
What I understand now is that the Harvard style is not seen as appropriate. I wanted to make sure I understand if that is really the case, because changing all the references over is going to be a massive job, and I believe it is at least arguable that (a) it is not easier to read in the sense that lots of footnotes scare people just as much as abbreviations like "et al."; (b) I fear that on-going editing is going to get messier.
If we are changing all referencing I suppose it means eventually moving every item in the present bibliography (reflist) up to a ref footnote somewhere where it is will become the basis of a ref name= footnote? And then we all hope no one ever deletes that particular footnote? And every time we recite an article we'll have to remember the right name (e.g. "cruciani2004" or "Cruciani2004" or "Crucianietal04").-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 11:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The disadvantage of this generator is it does not capture URLs if they are available outside of pubmed. PB666 yap 13:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Second paragraph in the intro, would it not be easier to just cite Semino 2004 and Cruciani 2004 at the end of the list of regions? I believe they cover all of these areas.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 11:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
[begin referencing - building a better article] Wikipedia articles, and other encyclopedic content, should be written in a formal tone. Standards for formal tone vary depending upon the subject matter, but should follow the style used by reliable sources, while remaining clear and understandable. Formal tone means that the article should not be written using unintelligible argot, doublespeak, legalese, or jargon; it means that the English language should be used in a businesslike manner.
Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia. People who read Wikipedia have different backgrounds, education and worldviews. Make your article accessible and understandable for as many readers as possible. Assume readers are reading the article to learn. It is possible that the reader knows nothing about the subject: the article needs to fully explain the subject.
Avoid using jargon whenever possible. Consider the reader. An article entitled "Use of chromatic scales in early Baroque music" is likely to be read by musicians, and technical details and metalanguage, linked to articles explaining the metalanguage, are appropriate.
Evaluating context
Here are some thought experiments to help you test whether you are setting enough context:
* Does the article make sense if the reader gets to it as a random page? (Special:Random) * Imagine yourself as a layperson in another English-speaking country. Can you figure out what the article is about? * Can people tell what the article is about if the first page is printed out and passed around? * Would a reader want to follow some of the links?
State the obvious
State facts that may be obvious to you, but are not necessarily obvious to the reader. Usually, such a statement will be in the first sentence or two of the article. For example, consider this sentence:
Stay on topic
The most readable articles contain no irrelevant (nor only loosely relevant) information. While writing an article, you might find yourself digressing into a side subject. If you find yourself wandering off-topic, consider placing the additional information into a different article, where it will fit more closely with the topic. If you provide a link to the other article, readers who are interested in the side topic have the option of digging into it, but readers who are not interested will not be distracted by it. Due to the way in which Wikipedia has grown, many articles contain such redundant texts. Please be bold in deleting them. [End referencing building a better article]
Many things in this article can be directly deleted, there is alot of Jargon, individuals switch from using M35 to E1b1b1 and the like, you've got figures with labels that are not explained. The article does not take a basic up approach, instead it takes a top down approach. Wikipedia can present complex topics, but they have to be explained in a way that someone following the leads can figure these things out. If the links do not explain the background then that is a priority for presentation in the article first. What I have noticed is that the combatives here are more interested in getting their point across than actually making the article understandable, and we are now having an argument about references. There are references scattered all about the article, but in terms of clarity, they don't add a bit. Before you guys get into your next big dispute read WP:TONE and the other and see if the article manages to meet the basic criteria. PB666 yap 17:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I need to ask for more input from other editors because an accusation has been made. I want my freedom to edit defined, and not to have to defend myself repeatedly in case this builds up further as have other distractions.
I am surprised to see a new indirect attack building up from Causteau, against me personally, and specifically my neutrality. As part of his latest campaign I am now being accused of being a non-neutral editor with a conflict of interest. I think, looking at WP:COI (the reference Causteau pointed me to) that it is best to raise this here.
1. Reference to my review article was deleted at the same time as Causteau made his latest revert on the controversial Coffman-Levy citation which Causteau wants to put in to the section on E1b1b's origins.
The edit comment said, referring to both elements in the edit at once "restored author's assertion that problem is ongoing; rm editor's addition of his own article per WP:COI".
Of course many editors of articles on these subjects see Casteau's specific wording as a veiled attempt to twist some snippets of text from an article about Jewish DNA in order to say that there is scientific doubt about the African origins of E1b1b. If this is not what he intends, then the reasons for including such awkward wording with supposedly the same meaning are mysterious and Causteau can only explain it in terms of defending the original author's words from supposed censorship.
I mentioned that once more because the article reference Causteau has deleted is from the same journal as the Coffman-Levy article, but specifically about E1b1b, not just an article that mentions it as a side subject. It is one of only a few articles which exists which is so specifically about E1b1b, and it is by far the most detailed and most recent. Seems to me it should be referenced here?
If I can't I guess another editor will eventually. And why make such a big point when Causteau might be an author but we just don't know because he posts anonymously?
So, should the article be references or not? Was this deletion of a reference justified?
2. Causteau has reported in the same context to an admin's talkpage as follows, in reaction to a discussion about SOPHIAN's edits which have been helping Causteau to edit without editing:
Further, your charges of "POV" are difficult to take seriously when it's actually you that is a member of the E1b1b public forum and has openly admitted to belonging to the haplogroup in question. That makes you a "neutral" editor on that Wikipedia article? I beg to differ.
So, am I not neutral because I am E1b1b, and don't hide it? As a secondary consideration I'd like to point out that even more in this case, this accusation would not be possible if I were an anonymous editor like Causteau.
3. The third thread of accusation was posted as a follow up on the same admin talk page...
Stop playing the "British" card. It is so transparent. Not every Briton obsessively edits the E1b1b Wikipedia article, admits to belonging to said haplogroup, posts regularly on a forum exclusively devoted to that haplogroup, and is also the principal editor on that Project's wiki on the haplogroup as well. The forgoing would be just you. Face it: you have a vested interest in the haplogroup, and far more than any of the other editors you relentlessly bad mouth ever could. Do you even edit other pages???
By the way, I am not British and I also do not say Causteau claimed this would make me non-neutral. Don't ask me to explain why on earth he mentioned a British card though.
But am I non neutral because I have a well known interest in this subject? For example because I participate in online discussions about it, or because I help run a wiki?
I call for comments.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 11:43, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
"rm editor's addition of his own article per WP:COI"
Everyone please make an effort to wikify this article before inserting controversies that make the article more difficult to understand. PB666 yap 16:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
........
I have been asked to comment on this discussion and edit-war. All I can say is that:
Regards, -- Sugaar ( talk) 05:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
My source is Semino et al. (2004) I do not mind saying east africa other then the fact that east africa contains areas as far south as Mozambique and Zimbabwe places where no one says E3B began. Sincerely De The Count of Monte Cristo ( talk) 21:34, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
"Several observations point to eastern Africa as the homeland for haplogroup E3b—that is, it had (1) the highest number of different E3b clades (table 1), (2) a high frequency of this haplogroup and a high microsatellite diversity, and, finally, (3) the exclusive presence of the undifferentiated E3b* paragroup.""
If the Late Pleistocene Natufian sample from Israel is the source from which that Neolithic spread was derived, then there was clearly a Sub-Saharan African element present of almost equal importance as the Late Prehistoric Eurasian element. The interbreeding of the incoming Neolithic people with the in situ foragers diluted the Sub-Saharan traces that may have come with the Neolithic spread so that no discoverable element of that remained. This picture of a mixture between the incoming farmers and the in situ foragers had originally been supported by the archaeological record alone, but this view is now reinforced by the analysis of the skeletal morphology of the people of those areas where prehistoric and recent remains can be metrically compared
A higher-resolution analysis (Fig. 1c) reveals a distinct gradient of Bantu-related ancestry from west to east across Eurasia, an observation that sharply contradicts the theory that a single African migration gave rise to the entire non-African gene pool. One explanation for this is that after the initial southern route migration out of Africa, there was later Bantu-related gene flow into Europe and the rest of Eurasia.
PB666 yap 19:36, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Here is a paper that reinforces what I have been saying
[5]. What is said above is about right and makes sense. From the HLA perspective specific haplotypes can be traced to points in the East, in Anatolia, in Greece, in the middle east, but there is also contribution from North Africa in Italy, NW africa in Iberia and western Europe, in Sardinia from N or NE Africa. The basic argument that all instances of a haplotype must have come from a Levantine or Semitic population is wishful thinking, IMHO all references to Jewish studies in the origins section should be removed and also from the lead.
PB666
yap
01:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
WP:BOLD - I removed mention of Jewish haplogroups, cleaned up the sentence which mentioned other haplogroups since these are adequately mentioned in the notes. If anyone wants to create a section on E1b1b1 in popular culture and go into more detail about myths and authors responses to those myths that would be a fine start to moving other statements out of science descriptions. PB666 yap 22:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Threads ending before March 31 were archived. PB666 yap 22:34, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
In this edit, I removed the claim that there is a theory that E1b1b originated in the Near East. I noted the edit as follows...
rmv recently re-added note; these websites are not intended to be cited in this manner and simply need updating; the fossized remarks go back to a time when the phylogeny of DE was simply not known
User:SOPHIAN then added it back in here. I know this has been discussed before, but it is clearly still a point of disagreement.
Info from reliable source
Presumably SOPHIAN must be able to make his own case about this and is not just blindly following Causteau, so I'd like him to explain why my explanation was wrong. I noted that the national genographic has "fossilized" information on its webpage which goes back to a time when E-M35 was not even a known clade. There was just DE which was found in Japan and Africa. Was I wrong? Surely you don't just delete stuff unless you've got some kind of case to make?
The webpages being cited were made when the National Genographic project started so they are by definition both old and also not based on any new research done within that project. So if this is a reliable source it must be information from published research somewhere. So which research is it? If no one can name any, then I think I am right, and this claim has to be removed as unsourced. Let me tell you that amongst normal non-fringe researchers I've looked hard and found no evidence at all that anyone is even thinking about this idea. This is pure internet fringe theory and it gets slipped in every time there is an edit war. So let's remove it again please.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 18:53, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
User:SOPHIAN has continued to revert all attempts to remove this Asian origins info from the article, so attempts have been made to communicate on his talkpage. Because he deleted that last night, I now add that discussion, or attempted discussion, here. SOPHIAN
has been told to discuss edit disagreements on talk pages more.--
Andrew Lancaster (
talk)
08:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Please justify these reverts you keep doing in a sensible way. How can you claim that this is "the worlds top genetic site"? This is just a fossilized webpage helping to promote a specific project. The website responds to no questions concerning source and the information has been there long before the project started publishing anything. Websites are not normally WP:reliable sources for Wikipedia, unless they are clearly authoritative. -- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 05:23, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I do think that this discussion is a reflection of a bigger problem. A lot of Wikipedia editors on genetics articles like this are themselves confused by some of these issues, but urgently wanting their ideas expressed. There are many confusions in the field which are partly created by the word usage of the published authors themselves. How to use adjectives like "African" is one problem (there are really no agreed rules on this at all); whether "admixture" always implies a model of migrations is another (it normally does not, it is just a mathematical description so to speak); the use of the words "old" and "young" for clades also creates confusions (all clades have the same age); I also sometimes see comments about which clades are bigger or smaller, even though the clades could be grouped in multiple ways to give any ranking you like. Perhaps PD666 could have a look at the Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe (and its talk page) to see a more chaotic example of an article virtually driven by such confusions.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 05:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I made a large number of changes in the Origin section and in the E1b1b1 section, this is all the changes I intend to make, I reduced the exposure to daughter clads to a brief synopsis, describing their pseudonyms, current accepted names, and a brief synopsis of the importance of the daughter clads. I also removed the 'formally ###' from section titles and placed them in their sections as bolded text. One could actually insert infoboxes in these sections. This is all the work I am going to do on this page, as to get the reader through the introductory stuff without dropping them into quicksand. I converted a few harvard tags to references which redirect to harvard references as is being done. The name dropping in the subsections I find less troublesome than in the introductory stuff. I also read Coffman-Levy and it reiterates may basic opinion that people draw too much from these early studies. One thing she did not say that I have repeatedly said, anyone in DNA-anthro knows, Sample, sample, sample. To many papers have drawn conclusions without sampling adequately and in particular, without sampling where diversity is greatest. While I appluad her rework of Jewish ancestry, the proper time to frame ancestry is well after the great sampling effort is complete. Somewhere along the way someone would find out why Y chromosomal TMRCA is so disconcordant with everything else, and you might have a decent molecular clock.
From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that Saharan genetic lineages affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey , probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic. This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic.
Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Kompolompo ( talk) 03:17, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: External link in |title=
(
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help); Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 |
In the passage below
E1b1b and E1b1b1 are quite common amongst populations speaking an Afro-Asiatic language. According to at least some theories on the origins of this linguistic group, such as those advanced by Christopher Ehret, Afro-Asiatic and E1b1b1 may have dispersed amongst the same populations from the same point of origin, making E-M35 a useful tool for speculation into the origins of Afro-Asiatic (Ehret et al. (2004)[9]).
E haplogroup is rather connected to Niger-Kongo and Nilo-Saharan families,and the theory of Ehret is not widely accepted as the few common roots and similar grammar between Semitic and Kushitic languages are merely borrowings and spracbund that are due to different waves of J haplogroup middle-easterners migrations(which is obvious in the presence of J1 haplotype among Berbers,Egyptians,Ethiopian and Somalis whereas it's impossible to think that these J1 haplotypes are due to Berberistaion/Somalisation... of Arabs or Semites)to Africa but these African languages still have heavy African substratum and lexicon.
Have you questionned yourself why the called Afroasiatic words related to numbers,animals,relationship etc.. are so different whereas these basic words are always similar in the widely accepted language families such as Semitic,Turkic,IE,Finno-Ugric etc..?
You can read the text below
I’m having a rethink about Afro Asiatic’s origin after having a good look at the reconstructed nouns.
Particularly those dealing with with animals. I had a brief look through the nouns for PAA, and quite striking was the number of words for goats and sheep. Also included were horses and camels. Since goats, horses and sheep and camels were not native to Holocene Africa prior to the neolithic, I’m reconsidering my support of an African origin for proto Afro Asiatic. Although, as has been kindly pointed out, the reconstructions are all pretty hazy for PAA, but still it’s suspicious.
Another factor making me reconsider is the dating suggested for the languages. The presence of goats and sheep (many and varied terms) also gives an oldest possible date to the last node (a languages TMRCA) for Cushitic, which is a pastoral language of sheep, goat and cattle herders. Since Cushitic is sub Saharan, very relevant is the oldest known date for the arrival of ovicaprines in the Sudan, which is about 5,500 years BP ( Esh Shaheinab, Sudan). This would suggest the proposed 10k date for proto Cushitic is off by about 45%- although this may just be it’s last node and the 10k date for it’s seperation may be correct.
Relevant to this is the R1b Y chromosome present in the Ouldeme and the Hausa, both Chadic speaking groups, one in Cameroon and one in the Sudan. The Hausa have R1b ( R-P25* (R1b1*) at about 41%, and Ouldeme at 95%. This is quite a bizarre find for groups in the middle of Africa, as R1b is typically European and West Asian. It would be a logical suggestion that the Ouldeme and Hausa are quite closely related paternally, and may point to an East to West route for Chadic speakers- suggested by Blench in the ‘The Westward wanderings of Cushitic Pastoralists’- although there have been suggestions the Hausa moved from West to east recently, which would make the R1b in Cameroon possibly from a north to south route across the Sahara.
This particular branch of R1b has been dated to an entry of about 4,000 years ago- but bearing in mind the older (2002) papers tend to seriously underestimate the date of the Y chromosomes – a pet peeve- the oldest entry date for it at 8,000 BP would be more reasonable, and a good match for the Neolithic sheep and goat pastoralists arriving in Africa from West Asia. It doesn’t do my older theory of M78/M1 being linked to the spread of Afro Asiatic any good though. Oh well.
The coalescence age of the African haplotype 117, which we estimated as 4,100 years (95% CI 2,400–8,060 years), could thus represent a date for such an expansion and a lower limit for the time of entry into Africa.
From this paper.
This all has some relevance to Ehrets dating of Proto Nilo Saharan (both families dated by glottochronology). He gives the same 15k date for Nilo Saharan as for proto Afro Asiatic.. so I’m thinking 10-9,000 bp for Nilo Saharan too. This also brings proto Northern Sudanic into the outer estimate for the Neolithic in Africa (7,000) although it’s unlikely as they have a dearth of terms for pastoralism and agriculture. His dates seem to vary from 35% to 45% off the possible, which may be due to the difference in geographical points of origin in proto Cushitic and Proto Sahelian, so I’m assuming proto Sahelian is a little more Northerly in origin than proto Cushitic and have adjusted the dates for it for a ‘best fit’. Even if it does give a close date for age of separation fro the sub groups, Ehret never seems to take into account there may have been more recent nodes to account for the pastoralist terms.
This doesn’t really support Omotic as an afro Asiatic language, as it shows no proto words for pastoralism before it’s split. But it has been pointed out by several linguists that it has no more in common with Afro Asiatic than it does with it’s other neighbouring language groups, so it’s AA status is pretty suspect to start with.
Edit:
A little more DNA evidence has come out showing a pre Neolithic population movement into North and East Africa dating to 11-10k ago, involving J1 (Y) and H (mt DNA) which coincide with the IM/Capsian transition in North Africa. This could be the reason for the odd structure of the tree; Cushitic languages are the result of an earlier AA population expansion into East Africa from the near East. This expansion (as far as I can tell) seems to start about 13,500 BP from southern Turkey? I’ll need to dig into it a bit more. This cultural expansion may have been of a food ‘managing’ culture as opposed to food gathering or producing cultures, a proto Neolithic expansion wave of people that kept wild animals (a domestication step) and harvested and planted seeds from the wild. There are domesticated seeds from Syria at 12,500 BP so the people of the Turkey/near East area were definitely doing something along those lines at the right date.
Humanbyrace ( talk) 12:10, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Humanbyrace ( talk) 12:18, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
The present text of the Wikipedia article does not say that there is an accepted theory, but actually it could be changed to be a bit more assertive. See my review article about this subject here http://www.jogg.info/51/index.html . Several of the major genetics papers which considered E1b1b suggested a link to Afroasiatic, and my article goes on to show the arguments still look good when considered both in detail and from a multi-disciplinary perspective. The only person who ever questioned this proposal, an Australian archaeologist named Peter Bellwood, effectively really only said that genetic evidence is useless. He did not address any particular evidence as such. The theories you are mentioning come from a blog so you can't use them on Wikipedia. They are very casual and indecisive anyway.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 14:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Despite my constant requests to try to avoid these discussion sections becoming too long to edit on all servers, User:Causteau has filled up a few more sections with very repetitive and long postings which quote themselves constantly and appear not to stick to the subject. He now demands an explanation about why I asked him to keep separate discussions in separate sections, so despite some concerns I have that this is a distraction, here it is.
Firstly let me reassure Causteau that I did not accuse him of moving any text on the talk page. I stated reasonably clearly, I thought, that I was going to move some text. Sorry for any misunderstanding, but on the other hand please let's not spend time writing about how outrageous it would be IF someone would do something they haven't done yet, such as when Causteau waxed poetic about how "diabolical" it was that I would "undoubtedly complain about [him moving text] to an administrator". I guess we can fill many talk pages with outrage about things that MIGHT happen.
Obviously there are currently two specific discussions about two specific sets of words on this Wikipedia article. Each has its own discussion sections.
I believe it is best that we keep these two discussions apart. I think anyone looking at the discussion will see that for this discussion to get anywhere Causteau needs to give clarity about his what his points are, so all of this confusion of different issues, including all the personal stuff, is not helpful.
So to now repeat the question outstanding for this section, what is the source for specifically putting in wording that means that the misinformation continued from 2005 to 2009? The source can not be a 2005 article, and it can not be a Wikipedia talkpage, so what is it?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
"But in a larger context, I [am] not convinced that it is accurate and not overly simplistic to designate a group "African" because the parental UEP occurred in Africa. I mean, if we go back far enough, all genetic groups have their origins in Africa. Would it be accurate to inform a Irish descendant with R1b results that his ultimate origins were really Middle Eastern/Anatolian? Or that those Italians with J2 results were really Middle Easternerns? Even if those J2's have been in Europe for 10,000 and have haplotypes essentially restricted to Europe? By labeling E3b "African," we risk ignoring the very historical and genetic complexity, diversity and unusual population distribution of the E3b group as a whole."
"In a study about the complexity of Jewish DNA, Coffman-Levy (2005) wrote that although E1b1b1 (otherwise known as E-M35) "arose in East Africa", "E3b is often incorrectly described as “African,” leaving a misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup", and that such misinformation about this haplogroup continued to pervade the public and media at least until the time of writing in 2005."
"In a study about the complexity of Jewish DNA, Coffman-Levy (2005) writes that although E1b1b1 (otherwise known as E-M35) "arose in East Africa", "E3b is often incorrectly described as “African,” leaving a misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup", and that such misinformation about this haplogroup continues to pervade the public and media."
"Unfortunately, misinformation about these haplogroups continues to pervade the public and media. Haplogroup E3b is often incorrectly described as “African,” leaving a misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup. Haplogroup J2, as previously discussed, is often incorrectly equated with J1 and described as “Jewish” or “Semitic,” despite the fact that it is present in a variety of non-Jewish Mediterranean and Northern European populations. And haplogroup G is rarely discussed in depth; its origin and distribution remain poorly understood."
"It is really up to the writers of this article to decide whether they want to reference my assertion regarding bias (or media bias) in the article (or even reference me at all!). As more and more research is conducted and DNA articles are released, perhaps there is less bias and misunderstanding about haplogroups like E3b. Although I think the public today is much better educated about genetic groups, there is still a very strong temptation to attach labels and to simplify what is almost always a very complex genetic history."
Why whould you LIE about what someone said unless you have an agenda and are an extremist? Go ahead and debate me: all I have to say is you will not stop twisting what Ellen said. The Count of Monte Cristo ( talk) 23:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
"But in a larger context, I not convinced that it is accurate and not overly simplistic to designate a group "African" because the parental UEP occurred in Africa. I mean, if we go back far enough, all genetic groups have their origins in Africa. Would it be accurate to inform a Irish descendant with R1b results that his ultimate origins were really Middle Eastern/Anatolian? Or that those Italians with J2 results were really Middle Easternerns? Even if those J2's have been in Europe for 10,000 and have haplotypes essentially restricted to Europe? By labeling E3b "African," we risk ignoring the very historical and genetic complexity, diversity and unusual population distribution of the E3b group as a whole."
"It is really up to the writers of this article to decide whether they want to reference my assertion regarding bias (or media bias) in the article (or even reference me at all!). As more and more research is conducted and DNA articles are released, perhaps there is less bias and misunderstanding about haplogroups like E3b. Although I think the public today is much better educated about genetic groups, there is still a very strong temptation to attach labels and to simplify what is almost always a very complex genetic history."
Andrew I apologize for implying that you have a agenda and are an extremist ): sorry. The Count of Monte Cristo ( talk) 21:34, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
In the editing I just did of the Coffman-Levy citation I have gone through several steps and explained each change step by step. Please, everyone, take a few breaths and go through the editing history step by step. I have tried to find a wording which actually even keeps the critical words according to Causteau, but properly calls them a "sense" of what could be meant. Concerning the issue of contemporaneity I've taken on board the most sensible critique I could read of Causteau, and shortened the wording, just making it simple. The current version follows.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 21:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
In a study about the complexity of Jewish DNA, Coffman-Levy (2005) writes that although E1b1b1 "arose in East Africa", it is "often incorrectly described as 'African'," in the sense that it creates a "misimpression regarding the origin and complex history of this haplogroup". She cites E1b1b as one of several examples of Y haplogroups (including also J1, J2, and G) too simplistically associated with a particular geographical or ethnic background. [1] In particular, she writes that "various branches and sub-branches of haplogroup E had very different evolutionary histories and distinct migration patterns" while, as will be discussed below, "certain sub-clades appear to have been present in Europe and Asia for thousands of years".
"To all, thank you for the warm welcome. Causteau, you have restated my argument quite eloquently. It is precisely what I was trying to convey."
"I do not, however, have any objection at all to removing my statement about public and media bias."
"When I wrote the article, there was an extremely strong bias against acknowledging the diversity and complexity of Jewish DNA results. There was instead a strong urge on the part of many researchers and lay geneticists to find primarily what I would describe as "non-European" origins for all Jewish DNA results. In my opinion, that bias tended to corrupt the research in some cases."
"I also recall quite clearly that at the time I was writing the article, I was also examining and corresponding with researchers at AncestrybyDNA. I was disturbed by their so-called "analysis" of Jewish autosomal results, which were never published or subject to peer review. One particular section on their website indicated "African" ancestry for Jewish DNA. Another was "Middle Eastern." There was no mention of "European" - that would have undermined what I suspected was their attempt to insure that Jewish ancestry was seen primarily as "non-European" in origin. Although they provided an autosomal test for consumers, no autosomal studies were cited. Instead, the "evidence" presented by AncestrybyDNA was exclusively based on Y chromosome results such as the E3b study from Semino. And because E3b was deemed an "African" haplogroup, then it allegedly supported AncestrybyDNA's assertion that Jews were primarly "African" (as well as "Middle Eastern" and hence "non-European") in their ancestry."
"It was, of course, terribly biased and scientifically unsupportable, but they were able to use these ideas quite effectively to assert "African" ancestry for Jews. Of course, they weren't alleging African ancestry for Europeans with significant E3b frequencies. Instead, they used selective labeling and emphasis."
"This is merely one disturbing example of what was happening at that time in the research community, the media and the reporting of DNA results. The misrepresentations were, in my opinion, quite intentional and also very widespread. They were certainly not limited to these companies. It is my understanding that AncestrybyDNA and DNAPrint have now modified their websites and this misinformation about the alleged "African" ancestry of Jews is no longer present."
"It is really up to the writers of this article to decide whether they want to reference my assertion regarding bias (or media bias) in the article (or even reference me at all!). As more and more research is conducted and DNA articles are released, perhaps there is less bias and misunderstanding about haplogroups like E3b. Although I think the public today is much better educated about genetic groups, there is still a very strong temptation to attach labels and to simplify what is almost always a very complex genetic history."
"From the above, it's clear that she is talking about how E3b is constantly and incorrectly labeled as "African" in the public and the media (in the same way that J2 is described as "Jewish" or "Semitic") simply because it happens to be a sub-clade of haplogroup E (in the same way that J2 is equated with J1 simply because they both happen to be sub-clades of haplogroup J). She believes that this is incorrect, for one thing, because E3b is found in many non-African Asian and European populations (similar to how J2 is found in many non-Jewish European populations), and because not all of E3b's sub-clades have an origin in Africa (e.g. E-V13, E-M34). She also thinks it's incorrect because, unlike, say, E3a, whose presence outside of Africa is almost always attributed to the slave trade, E3b was principally spread by Neolithic migrants, Berber/Islamic peoples, and Roman soldiers i.e. its "complex history"."
"This quote is also very relevant to the Origins section because the section states that "concerning the origins of the E1b1b lineage, Bosch et al. (2001), Semino et al. (2004), Cruciani et al. (2004, 2006, and 2007), point to evidence that not only E1b1b (E-M215), but also both it's parent lineage E1b1 (E-P2), and its dominant sub-clade E1b1b1 (E-M35) probably all first appeared in East Africa between 20,000 and 47,500 years ago", which gives the impression that E1b1b1/E3b as a whole is "African" just because its parent clade and defining mutation perhaps have an origin in Africa -- and this despite the wide distribution of E3b amongst populations outside of Africa, the actual size of each of said non-African populations, how those non-African populations acquired E3b in the first place, and the origins of sub-clades of E3b that lie outside of Africa. This is actually the very sort of thing Coffman-Levy is railing against."
I have been asked by AL to mediate a dispute. In fact this is difficult. The current ongoing battle is ruining the main-page in terms of encyclopedic content. This page is probably 3 times longer than it should be given comparison with other Y-haplogroup pages and is not written so a highschool student would understand it, let alone interesting enough that they might read it. Some ways the article could be improved:
In section:Other names, . . .
The current phylogenetic terminology "E1b1b" and "E1b1b1" was proposed by Karafet et al. (2008). This paper was intended to be an update of the "Y Chromosome Consortium"(YCC (2002)). The YCC first formalized the original phylogenetic nomenclature - "E3b" (E-M215) and "E3b1" (E-M35) - which is still found widely especially in older literature.
This is not encyclopedic. The entire section is made of one or two sentence paragraphs. Each paragraph should be no more than one sentence, condensed and wikified, in a paragraphed. References should be at the end of sentences and avoid name dropping midsentence. Unless the author is an official or it is an official nomenclature commisions and that commision needs to have its own wikipage where it credentials are made clear. PB666 yap
In Origins:
Concerning the origins of the E1b1b lineage, Bosch et al. (2001), Semino et al. (2004)[15], Cruciani et al. (2004)[16], (2006)[17], and (2007)[18], ...
The 11th grader who, for whatever reason just clicked on the section head has switched to the article about Britney Spears. This is not the way to write an encyclopedic article.
In Subclades of E1b1b1 (E-M35):
As mentioned above, nearly all E1b1b lineages are within E1b1b1 (defined by M35). Cruciani et al. (2004) found 2 out of 34 Ethiopian Amhara tested, to be M215 positive but M35 negative, and therefore in the paragroup "E-M215*". More recently, Cadenas et al. (2007) found one more E-M215* individual in Yemen, just across the Red Sea from the Amhara, out of 62 people tested there. [New paragraph] Turning to E-M35, the most current phylogeny of E1b1b1 includes the individuals with no known sub-clade mutations (who are therefore said to be in the "ancestral state" referred to as E1b1b1* or E-M35*) plus seven known "derived" branches, which are defined by the following SNPs: M78, M81, M123, M281, V6, P72, and M293, all of which are discussed below.
Yikes! Folks, think about the reader or the encyclopedia, first. If its this complicated make a picture, a star diagram. For situations were you have a subclad and a particular distribution, make a table. I can go on but I am not. PB666 yap
The conflict of Interest claim. WP:COI is clearly at play. Wikipedia is not a battleground not even for scientist.
Where advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Wikipedia, that editor stands in a conflict of interest. COI editing is strongly discouraged. When editing causes disruption to the encyclopedia through violation of policies such as neutral point of view, what Wikipedia is not, and notability, accounts may be blocked. COI editing also risks causing public embarrassment outside of Wikipedia for the individuals and groups being promoted.
Please see: WP:NOTTEXTBOOK, WP:INDISCRIMINATE, WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND. To simply state this for my fellow scientist: if your edits are not for the improvement of the article as a wikified encyclopedic entry (See WP:MOS) designed for a highschool reading and interest level, then you may have a conflict of interest in what you are editing.
Recommendation: This article is grossly non-encyclopedic. Since deleting it would be a conflict of interest I recommend deleting section by section an moving each section to the talk page. The section should then be criticized on the talk page for content, rewritten, and agreed upon, then returned to the main page in its edited form.
Talkpage recommendation: Talk pages are for the improvement of the article, not for personal attacks and counterattacks. One can discriminate whether a discussion is personal attack or working toward improvements when there is a generally hostile critiques but no offers of compromises toward the improvement. Much of what is on this talk page can be refactored to the bit bucket. This talk page on this obscure Y-sub-sub-sub-haplogroup has 6 archives???!!!! Sheeeeesh.
And since I am supposed to disclose any COI I have: I am an ex-participant in the UseNet group sci.anthropology.paleo since almost its creation, I am the owner and chief moderator of the Yahoo DNAanthro - molecular anthropology newsgroup. I have watched many arguments concerning origins on the UseNet and many have appeared in various other groups.
I have seen my fair share of highly imaginative 'extrapolations' of origins based on the Y-chromosome. Its a shame people don't have the same interest in HLA as they have in Y-chromosome. I would point out that the tMRCA of mtDNA in the two most current papers is 192 kya and 194 ky+/-32kya (Gonder et al 2007), my own estimate based on several techniques is around 230kya. The TMRCA listed in the Y-chromosomal Adam is "37,000–49,000 years ago [7] to 51,000–411,000 years ago [8]". The most recent mtDNA article suggests an exodus from Africa 55 to 75kya when the archaeological evidence from India, china and the Levant suggest human spread from central or south central Africa to be well older than this.[e.g. the dating of liujiang (67-150 kya), the archaeological finds in eastern India dating to 80 kya and LM3 which parsimoniously dates to about 52 kya, the earliest dates for Skhul and Qahfez to 125 kya] Indeed the most recent paper on mtDNA which deals with the issue of selection in the coding region (although by my standard not sufficiently enough) suggests that not long after the SeqMRCA formed that the population within Africa grew significantly. In general, since Vigilante et al established the first TMRCA for mtDNA there has been a recognize understatement of TMRCAs based on a number of assumptions that have proven to be just that - assumptions. These assumptions have been applied across the board and recently came up with a highly erroneous guess of the age of two 'popular' autosomal genes, FoxP2 and MC1R. As a consequence the spread from Africa of Y-chromosome is problematic and inconsistent with two independent sets of facts.
In either case the datings and the importance of Y-derived migrations needs to be questioned in terms of its relevance to molecular anthropology. Despite the rather critical weaknesses of Y chromosome as settlement or migration markers, in its capability to coordinate with archaeological evidence (i.e. that Roman british migration could have been the Neolithic migration that occurred 5100BC), ...... numerous instances on the Internet by some 'not-so-fact-based'-groups are made ascerting Y chromosomes to various historic and prehistoric migrations. The few papers that I have read on the issue of effective male population sizes suggest a male to female effective population size of 1:2. In the studies recent enough to compare HLA haplotypes, mtDNA, and Y this has been shown to be roughly true. Past this mixing ratio, Y chromosome often undergoes rapid differential selection and within 100s of years can shift frequencies rapidly as a consequence of the popularity of a name or a paternal (ruling) line.
Why am I presenting this? Because the level of information in this article is disproportionately large relative to its certainty in dating and relevance to overall population genetics in humans. This is a guide to which information can be trimmed down by willing editors with some confidence, particularly primary literature which draws an opinion that is not likely to be correct or more importantly (coming from the moderator and long term observer of molecular anthropology - their confidence is overstated, confidence interval is undersized, and conclusions do not account for all possibilities). Be conservative, if there is doubt about a conclusion, present the results, hold the conclusion. I have no better advice to offer on the subject than this, it is my opinion that if all editors agree to re-examine the literature and assume that these confidence intervals are larger than stated, and hold back or remove statements that, from a more distant perspective, could have many interpretations, then this battleground atmosphere can be resolved into a cooperative atmosphere. This allows the editors to create a shorter and more pleasantly read article. This is an encyclopedia, please the interest and reader not the ego. PB666 yap 14:17, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
freq | ||
[2] | Population | (%) |
Luo ( Kenya) | 6.2 | |
Yaounde ( Cameroon) | 4.4 | |
Shona ( Harare, Zimbabwe) | 4.0 | |
Nandi (Kenya) | 4.0 | |
Tswana ( South Africa) | 3.7 | |
Natal Zulu (South African) | 3.5 | |
Baloch ( Iran) | 3.5 | |
Kenya | 2.8 | |
Pazeh (Taiwan) | 2.7 | |
Lusaka ( Zambia) | 2.3 | |
Bakola Pygmy (Cameroon) | 2.0 | |
Beti ( Cameroon) | 1.7 | |
Oman | 1.3 | |
Bamileke (Cameroon ) | 1.3 | |
United Arab Emerates | 1.1 | |
Southern Portugal | 1.0 | |
Kampala ( Uganda) | 0.9 | |
Sudanese | 0.5 | |
Delhi ( India) | 0.5 | |
Brazil Parana Mulatto | 0.5 | |
Romanian | 0.3 | |
Chinese ( Hong Kong, China) | 0.2 | |
Shijiazhuang Tianjian ( Beijing, China) | 0.2 | |
South Korea | 0.1 |
==Other names, and history of the classification==
The current [[phylogenetic]] terminology "E1b1b" and "E1b1b1" was proposed by {{Harvcoltxt|Karafet et al.|2008}}. This paper was intended to be an update of the "Y Chromosome Consortium"({{Harvcoltxt|YCC|2002}}). The YCC first formalized the original phylogenetic nomenclature - "E3b" (E-M215) and "E3b1" (E-M35) - which is still found widely especially in older literature. It was also the 2002 consortium which proposed guidelines on the mutation nomenclature, "E-M215" and "E-M35". The mutation-based clade names have increasingly been used since then because they avoid the confusion which comes from the increasingly frequent discoveries of new SNP mutations - for example when older and newer literature is being compared. Prior to {{Harvcoltxt|Cruciani et al.|2004}}, both E1b1b and E1b1b1, not yet distinguished at that time, had been referred to as '''Hg21''' ('''Haplogroup 21''') within {{Harvcoltxt|Zerjal et al.|1999}}'s nomenclature, or as '''Eu4''' according to {{Harvcoltxt|Semino et al.|2000}}'s classification. They were also within {{Harvcoltxt|Underhill et al.|2001}}'s "Group III", and in terms of "p49/TaqI" tests, E-M35 came within Haplotype V. (It should be generally be kept in mind that some older haplogroup testing methods could not distinguish between related clades in a way perfectly consistent with more recent findings.) Other older names are referred to in the YCC 2002 report in the referenced articles, but are less common in the literature.
E1b1b and E1b1b1 are the current accepted names by the Y Chromosome Consortium. [3] The nomenclature E3b (E-M215) and E3b1 (E-M35), respectively[?] is used to designate the same haplogroups within the older literature. [4] Prior to 2004 both haplogroups were referred to collectively as Haplogroup 21 (HG21) or Eu4. citation needed Prior to this the two haplgroups tested as "Group III" with "p49/TaqI" and E1b1b1 was identified within HaplotypeV. citation needed
'==Current and previous names==
E1b1b and E1b1b1 are the currently accepted names found in the proposals of the Y Chromosome Consortium(YCC). [3] The nomenclature E3b (E-M215) and E3b1 (E-M35) respectively were the YCC defined names used to designate the same haplogroups in older literature with E-M35 branching as a separate subclade of E-M215 in 2004. [4] [5] Prior to 2002 these haplogroups were not designated in a consistent way, and nor was their relationship to other related clades within haplogroup E and haplogroup DE. citation needed
The article is almost exclusively devoted to the discussion of the E1b1b1 subclade and descendant clades. Why is nothing on E1b1b presented in this article, does it represent the state of the literature? Is there a branch diagram available that can be used as a guide to all the E1b1b1 variants. PB666 yap 14:50, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Here is how I think the phylogeny should be displayed.
PB666
yap
In the article E1b1b is described as having arisen in or near the Horn of Africa. However the sources cited use different naming conventions.
None of these scholars use the term "Horn of Africa". Though parsimony indicates that E1b1b most likely did emerge in Ethiopia because M215 with ancestral M35 was found in ethiopia. It should be noted that E1b1b is a sibling of E1b1a and thus have a direct common ancestor E1b, E1b1a dispersed from West Africa. So where this common ancestor lived may have important implications for the origins of E1b1b. It could be that E1b1a also originated in East Africa but spread west accross the Sahel. Another complication is that E1b1a seems to have swamped all pre-existing lineages with the Bantu Expansion. Blench speculates for instance that Cushitic speakers may have had a much more southerly distribution prior to the Bantu Expansion. [3]
The section on the origins is dominated by a large paragraph devoted to quotes by Ellen Levy Coffman. However she is a family lawyer, should her quotes be given such prominence. This has been previously discussed here Talk:Khazars#DNA_Evidence Xavier Bolton ( talk) 20:23, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Just to extend one thought AL made on his talk page. There are aspects, probably many on the X-chromosome that have undergone no significant recombination in the last 2.5 million years. PDHA1 is one example. These particular sites paint a much more complex picture of human evolution than do Y, in fact I did a comparison between expected fixation times versus observed fixation times in 22 X-linked loci and they pretty much agreed with a fixation time of about 500ky, of course made the assumption the constriction that caused fixation in many of these loci ended about 150+kya. That has to be contrasted to the Y-chromosome which has only a ploidy of 3 fold lower than X and its fixation time occurs after the putative constriction and is one 10th the age, even if we assume effective ploidy of 1.66 (X) vs. .33 (Y) that is a ratio of 5, still 2 fold lower and occurring after the constriction ended when the population was larger. I would discuss median population sizes versus ages but the fact is that the last fixation event for a given haplotype makes further backward analysis impossible . . . . Y-chromosome may be haploid and the picture may be simple, but the unfortunately it lives in its own self-explained genetic universe.
"E1b1b (E-M215) and its dominant sub-clade E1b1b1 (E-M35) are believed to have first appeared in or near the Horn of Africa[18] about 22,400 years ago."
Without a confidence range this cannot be accurate past the first decimal place. In fact I would say greater than 20,000 years ago and leave it at that.
Here is another one (again I don't know who wrote these)
"The authors believe there were "at least 2 episodes between 23.9–17.3 ky and 18.0–5.9 ky ago".
The second episode has a credible confidence (at 1SD equalling their range) but the first 17.3-23.9 is less than the calibration error, it would not even consider random factors associated with the sequences evolution, not withstanding the issue of that pertain to Y descrepancies. The other thing is what do we care what the authors 'believe', what does their data suggest are the limits of the argument what can a consensus generate. This is why wiki likes reviews as sources of information, it is supposed to be up to a reviewer to digests beliefs, look at results and formulate a structure that meshes various sorts of information together into something better. If there are papers that handle confidence carefully then we can probably include those dates, but if their tightly unrealistic, I would say these are two much opinion and too little objectivity. PB666 yap 03:26, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Continuing thanks to User:Pdeitiker for his efforts here. I hope won't mind my ignorant question about the subject of changing the referencing system.
Most haplogroup articles I've worked on or looked at have a horrible mixture of referencing styles which makes it very difficult to edit them without loosing the references, or doubling them up several times. Most, unlike E1b1b, are full of broken links, and incompletely referenced end-notes. Often editors don't have time, and hope someone will fix it all up later.
Therefore some time ago I started using Harvard style references (e.g. Lancaster (2009)) in E1b1b. There is a template for this on Wikipedia which I find works really well in conjunction with a nice neat bibliography. So I built that up.
Frankly (call this a COI if you want to) I now sometimes come to the E1b1b article in order to get my references right when working on other articles. This is the only one where you can find the references quickly and easily.
What I understand now is that the Harvard style is not seen as appropriate. I wanted to make sure I understand if that is really the case, because changing all the references over is going to be a massive job, and I believe it is at least arguable that (a) it is not easier to read in the sense that lots of footnotes scare people just as much as abbreviations like "et al."; (b) I fear that on-going editing is going to get messier.
If we are changing all referencing I suppose it means eventually moving every item in the present bibliography (reflist) up to a ref footnote somewhere where it is will become the basis of a ref name= footnote? And then we all hope no one ever deletes that particular footnote? And every time we recite an article we'll have to remember the right name (e.g. "cruciani2004" or "Cruciani2004" or "Crucianietal04").-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 11:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
The disadvantage of this generator is it does not capture URLs if they are available outside of pubmed. PB666 yap 13:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Second paragraph in the intro, would it not be easier to just cite Semino 2004 and Cruciani 2004 at the end of the list of regions? I believe they cover all of these areas.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 11:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
[begin referencing - building a better article] Wikipedia articles, and other encyclopedic content, should be written in a formal tone. Standards for formal tone vary depending upon the subject matter, but should follow the style used by reliable sources, while remaining clear and understandable. Formal tone means that the article should not be written using unintelligible argot, doublespeak, legalese, or jargon; it means that the English language should be used in a businesslike manner.
Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia. People who read Wikipedia have different backgrounds, education and worldviews. Make your article accessible and understandable for as many readers as possible. Assume readers are reading the article to learn. It is possible that the reader knows nothing about the subject: the article needs to fully explain the subject.
Avoid using jargon whenever possible. Consider the reader. An article entitled "Use of chromatic scales in early Baroque music" is likely to be read by musicians, and technical details and metalanguage, linked to articles explaining the metalanguage, are appropriate.
Evaluating context
Here are some thought experiments to help you test whether you are setting enough context:
* Does the article make sense if the reader gets to it as a random page? (Special:Random) * Imagine yourself as a layperson in another English-speaking country. Can you figure out what the article is about? * Can people tell what the article is about if the first page is printed out and passed around? * Would a reader want to follow some of the links?
State the obvious
State facts that may be obvious to you, but are not necessarily obvious to the reader. Usually, such a statement will be in the first sentence or two of the article. For example, consider this sentence:
Stay on topic
The most readable articles contain no irrelevant (nor only loosely relevant) information. While writing an article, you might find yourself digressing into a side subject. If you find yourself wandering off-topic, consider placing the additional information into a different article, where it will fit more closely with the topic. If you provide a link to the other article, readers who are interested in the side topic have the option of digging into it, but readers who are not interested will not be distracted by it. Due to the way in which Wikipedia has grown, many articles contain such redundant texts. Please be bold in deleting them. [End referencing building a better article]
Many things in this article can be directly deleted, there is alot of Jargon, individuals switch from using M35 to E1b1b1 and the like, you've got figures with labels that are not explained. The article does not take a basic up approach, instead it takes a top down approach. Wikipedia can present complex topics, but they have to be explained in a way that someone following the leads can figure these things out. If the links do not explain the background then that is a priority for presentation in the article first. What I have noticed is that the combatives here are more interested in getting their point across than actually making the article understandable, and we are now having an argument about references. There are references scattered all about the article, but in terms of clarity, they don't add a bit. Before you guys get into your next big dispute read WP:TONE and the other and see if the article manages to meet the basic criteria. PB666 yap 17:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I need to ask for more input from other editors because an accusation has been made. I want my freedom to edit defined, and not to have to defend myself repeatedly in case this builds up further as have other distractions.
I am surprised to see a new indirect attack building up from Causteau, against me personally, and specifically my neutrality. As part of his latest campaign I am now being accused of being a non-neutral editor with a conflict of interest. I think, looking at WP:COI (the reference Causteau pointed me to) that it is best to raise this here.
1. Reference to my review article was deleted at the same time as Causteau made his latest revert on the controversial Coffman-Levy citation which Causteau wants to put in to the section on E1b1b's origins.
The edit comment said, referring to both elements in the edit at once "restored author's assertion that problem is ongoing; rm editor's addition of his own article per WP:COI".
Of course many editors of articles on these subjects see Casteau's specific wording as a veiled attempt to twist some snippets of text from an article about Jewish DNA in order to say that there is scientific doubt about the African origins of E1b1b. If this is not what he intends, then the reasons for including such awkward wording with supposedly the same meaning are mysterious and Causteau can only explain it in terms of defending the original author's words from supposed censorship.
I mentioned that once more because the article reference Causteau has deleted is from the same journal as the Coffman-Levy article, but specifically about E1b1b, not just an article that mentions it as a side subject. It is one of only a few articles which exists which is so specifically about E1b1b, and it is by far the most detailed and most recent. Seems to me it should be referenced here?
If I can't I guess another editor will eventually. And why make such a big point when Causteau might be an author but we just don't know because he posts anonymously?
So, should the article be references or not? Was this deletion of a reference justified?
2. Causteau has reported in the same context to an admin's talkpage as follows, in reaction to a discussion about SOPHIAN's edits which have been helping Causteau to edit without editing:
Further, your charges of "POV" are difficult to take seriously when it's actually you that is a member of the E1b1b public forum and has openly admitted to belonging to the haplogroup in question. That makes you a "neutral" editor on that Wikipedia article? I beg to differ.
So, am I not neutral because I am E1b1b, and don't hide it? As a secondary consideration I'd like to point out that even more in this case, this accusation would not be possible if I were an anonymous editor like Causteau.
3. The third thread of accusation was posted as a follow up on the same admin talk page...
Stop playing the "British" card. It is so transparent. Not every Briton obsessively edits the E1b1b Wikipedia article, admits to belonging to said haplogroup, posts regularly on a forum exclusively devoted to that haplogroup, and is also the principal editor on that Project's wiki on the haplogroup as well. The forgoing would be just you. Face it: you have a vested interest in the haplogroup, and far more than any of the other editors you relentlessly bad mouth ever could. Do you even edit other pages???
By the way, I am not British and I also do not say Causteau claimed this would make me non-neutral. Don't ask me to explain why on earth he mentioned a British card though.
But am I non neutral because I have a well known interest in this subject? For example because I participate in online discussions about it, or because I help run a wiki?
I call for comments.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 11:43, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
"rm editor's addition of his own article per WP:COI"
Everyone please make an effort to wikify this article before inserting controversies that make the article more difficult to understand. PB666 yap 16:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
........
I have been asked to comment on this discussion and edit-war. All I can say is that:
Regards, -- Sugaar ( talk) 05:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
My source is Semino et al. (2004) I do not mind saying east africa other then the fact that east africa contains areas as far south as Mozambique and Zimbabwe places where no one says E3B began. Sincerely De The Count of Monte Cristo ( talk) 21:34, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
"Several observations point to eastern Africa as the homeland for haplogroup E3b—that is, it had (1) the highest number of different E3b clades (table 1), (2) a high frequency of this haplogroup and a high microsatellite diversity, and, finally, (3) the exclusive presence of the undifferentiated E3b* paragroup.""
If the Late Pleistocene Natufian sample from Israel is the source from which that Neolithic spread was derived, then there was clearly a Sub-Saharan African element present of almost equal importance as the Late Prehistoric Eurasian element. The interbreeding of the incoming Neolithic people with the in situ foragers diluted the Sub-Saharan traces that may have come with the Neolithic spread so that no discoverable element of that remained. This picture of a mixture between the incoming farmers and the in situ foragers had originally been supported by the archaeological record alone, but this view is now reinforced by the analysis of the skeletal morphology of the people of those areas where prehistoric and recent remains can be metrically compared
A higher-resolution analysis (Fig. 1c) reveals a distinct gradient of Bantu-related ancestry from west to east across Eurasia, an observation that sharply contradicts the theory that a single African migration gave rise to the entire non-African gene pool. One explanation for this is that after the initial southern route migration out of Africa, there was later Bantu-related gene flow into Europe and the rest of Eurasia.
PB666 yap 19:36, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Here is a paper that reinforces what I have been saying
[5]. What is said above is about right and makes sense. From the HLA perspective specific haplotypes can be traced to points in the East, in Anatolia, in Greece, in the middle east, but there is also contribution from North Africa in Italy, NW africa in Iberia and western Europe, in Sardinia from N or NE Africa. The basic argument that all instances of a haplotype must have come from a Levantine or Semitic population is wishful thinking, IMHO all references to Jewish studies in the origins section should be removed and also from the lead.
PB666
yap
01:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
WP:BOLD - I removed mention of Jewish haplogroups, cleaned up the sentence which mentioned other haplogroups since these are adequately mentioned in the notes. If anyone wants to create a section on E1b1b1 in popular culture and go into more detail about myths and authors responses to those myths that would be a fine start to moving other statements out of science descriptions. PB666 yap 22:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Threads ending before March 31 were archived. PB666 yap 22:34, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
In this edit, I removed the claim that there is a theory that E1b1b originated in the Near East. I noted the edit as follows...
rmv recently re-added note; these websites are not intended to be cited in this manner and simply need updating; the fossized remarks go back to a time when the phylogeny of DE was simply not known
User:SOPHIAN then added it back in here. I know this has been discussed before, but it is clearly still a point of disagreement.
Info from reliable source
Presumably SOPHIAN must be able to make his own case about this and is not just blindly following Causteau, so I'd like him to explain why my explanation was wrong. I noted that the national genographic has "fossilized" information on its webpage which goes back to a time when E-M35 was not even a known clade. There was just DE which was found in Japan and Africa. Was I wrong? Surely you don't just delete stuff unless you've got some kind of case to make?
The webpages being cited were made when the National Genographic project started so they are by definition both old and also not based on any new research done within that project. So if this is a reliable source it must be information from published research somewhere. So which research is it? If no one can name any, then I think I am right, and this claim has to be removed as unsourced. Let me tell you that amongst normal non-fringe researchers I've looked hard and found no evidence at all that anyone is even thinking about this idea. This is pure internet fringe theory and it gets slipped in every time there is an edit war. So let's remove it again please.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 18:53, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
User:SOPHIAN has continued to revert all attempts to remove this Asian origins info from the article, so attempts have been made to communicate on his talkpage. Because he deleted that last night, I now add that discussion, or attempted discussion, here. SOPHIAN
has been told to discuss edit disagreements on talk pages more.--
Andrew Lancaster (
talk)
08:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Please justify these reverts you keep doing in a sensible way. How can you claim that this is "the worlds top genetic site"? This is just a fossilized webpage helping to promote a specific project. The website responds to no questions concerning source and the information has been there long before the project started publishing anything. Websites are not normally WP:reliable sources for Wikipedia, unless they are clearly authoritative. -- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 05:23, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
I do think that this discussion is a reflection of a bigger problem. A lot of Wikipedia editors on genetics articles like this are themselves confused by some of these issues, but urgently wanting their ideas expressed. There are many confusions in the field which are partly created by the word usage of the published authors themselves. How to use adjectives like "African" is one problem (there are really no agreed rules on this at all); whether "admixture" always implies a model of migrations is another (it normally does not, it is just a mathematical description so to speak); the use of the words "old" and "young" for clades also creates confusions (all clades have the same age); I also sometimes see comments about which clades are bigger or smaller, even though the clades could be grouped in multiple ways to give any ranking you like. Perhaps PD666 could have a look at the Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe (and its talk page) to see a more chaotic example of an article virtually driven by such confusions.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 05:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I made a large number of changes in the Origin section and in the E1b1b1 section, this is all the changes I intend to make, I reduced the exposure to daughter clads to a brief synopsis, describing their pseudonyms, current accepted names, and a brief synopsis of the importance of the daughter clads. I also removed the 'formally ###' from section titles and placed them in their sections as bolded text. One could actually insert infoboxes in these sections. This is all the work I am going to do on this page, as to get the reader through the introductory stuff without dropping them into quicksand. I converted a few harvard tags to references which redirect to harvard references as is being done. The name dropping in the subsections I find less troublesome than in the introductory stuff. I also read Coffman-Levy and it reiterates may basic opinion that people draw too much from these early studies. One thing she did not say that I have repeatedly said, anyone in DNA-anthro knows, Sample, sample, sample. To many papers have drawn conclusions without sampling adequately and in particular, without sampling where diversity is greatest. While I appluad her rework of Jewish ancestry, the proper time to frame ancestry is well after the great sampling effort is complete. Somewhere along the way someone would find out why Y chromosomal TMRCA is so disconcordant with everything else, and you might have a decent molecular clock.
From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that Saharan genetic lineages affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey , probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic. This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic.
Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Kompolompo ( talk) 03:17, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: External link in |title=
(
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
{{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)
{{
cite journal}}
: Explicit use of et al. in: |author=
(
help); Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)