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Hello,
this listing seems to include both members of the Hanseatic League and towns merely connected economically. Sarcelles ( talk) 20:34, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
The reference named "Miruß" in the article (Miruß, Alexander (1838). Das See-Recht und die Fluß-Schifffahrt nach den Preußischen Gesetzen. Leipzig: JC Hinrichsschen Buchhandlung. p. 17. Retrieved 2 May 2011.) lists the following cities not included within the list Hansa proper in this article:
Sarcelles ( talk) 16:36, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
-- Sarcelles ( talk) 09:21, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
p. 772/773 has a list of places, whose membership in the Hanseatic League is unclear:
Kind regards, −− Sarcelles ( talk) 09:30, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
http://european-heritage.org/germany/münster/hanse/chronicle-hanseatic-league-continued has the following:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qiBBAQAAIAAJ&q=Dąbie+hanza&dq=Dąbie+hanza&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZ9OW8_bbZAhWEaRQKHSV7D34Q6AEIOzAD has the following:
It says, that the following were not members
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jT9EDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA64&dq=winterberg+hanse&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwje8f-3_7bZAhUMyKQKHYtxDL0Q6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=winterberg%20hanse&f=false has Winterberg.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=t-HuCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=Schmallenberg+Hanse&source=bl&ots=-olxKc6bJa&sig=SKw-99-j1OC7fBD45PW6giPCByM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBgJqIgLfZAhVCshQKHbSABIM4ChDoAQhTMAU#v=onepage&q=Schmallenberg%20Hanse&f=false has Schmallenberg.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AskUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA206&dq=Ommen+Hanze&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivs6O5gbfZAhVBrCwKHVK4CxIQ6AEIZjAJ#v=onepage&q=Ommen%20Hanze&f=false has the following ones:
https://www.digibron.nl/search/detail/bb3395c27ef83e93b59a0dc57e06d5ab/l-becks-kooplieden-dwongen-vorsten-tot-oorlog-en-vrede has Tiel.
https://www.europese-bibliotheek.nl/en/Books/Schttorf_in_alten_Ansichten/100-129110/Article has Schüttorf.
https://www.lwl.org/westfalen-regional-download/PDF/059n_Hanse.pdf has the follwing on its map, including cases of ’’zugewandter Ort’’, which possibly is not a membership of the Hanseatic League:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iea5CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=Dramburg+Hanse+Dollinger&source=bl&ots=eRg4mx6JKS&sig=XEpGT_5VmJn1PYClRmO1bHMeVDk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-6rLGrbnZAhVECuwKHSAVAooQ6AEIQzAD#v=onepage&q=Dramburg%20Hanse%20Dollinger&f=false. Which of these sources are valid? -- Sarcelles ( talk) 12:13, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Dear fellow editors,
I am leaving the present message out of courtesy to other editors watching this article.
For quite some time now, I have been wanting to improve the formatting of the two tables (
Hansa Proper and
Kontore), where the Refs column is currently very wide and takes a lot of space because it contains a horizontal list of only a few superscript digits for the references, thus causing the Notes column to be much too narrow (especially for
Kontore) which, in turn, makes the prose in 'Notes' difficult to read, and the table deeper than it could be if that column were a bit wider, to accommodate more prose in each cell.
Therefore, I have slightly redesigned both tables, and only to ensure that the superscript digits in the Refs column are displayed in a vertical list; this therefore makes the column suitably more narrow, thus enabling the Notes column to be wider, which makes the prose easier to read, and both tables less deep.
The solution was quite simple: in each cell of the Refs column, the list of refs is now embedded in a {{plainlist| ... }}
template, which will align the superscript digits vertically in the cell; this makes the cell as wide as necessary to contain only one digit and its optional page number(s). (For those interested in the details, feel free to look in my
sandbox and its
talk page, where I have been ably advised by
jmcgnh and
AntiCompositeNumber.)
I will soon apply the new format to both tables, which will now also include commented guidance (in the editable source) on how to code the contents of the cells in the Refs column.
With kind regards; Patrick. ツ
Pdebee.
(talk)(become
old-fashioned!)
16:06, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
I first noticed the section when I was looking for Fellin and Pernau in the cities list, as it is widely accepted at least in Estonia that those were Hanseatic cities. I found the cities in the Other cities with a Hanseatic Community and that made me wonder, what differentiates that list from the one a bit above it? JDFRG ( talk) 20:16, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
There's a good deal of words in standard modern German in the article's text. I understand that's the result of historiography and lines up with the literature, but I feel at a point it becomes anachronistic and sometimes it's not really needed or even excessive. An example is "Organization". I see the relevance of continuing to use Kontor, Tagfahrt, Hansetag and Einung or even Drittel in the text, but should Ältermann be used multiple times instead of alderman? Maybe it could sometimes also mention the Middle Low German words. JaikeV ( talk) 10:59, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
[Message text copied here from
User talk:Pdebee#Dutch reference in "Commercial expansion":]
Hi, I added the Dutch reference to this portion:
The league primarily traded beeswax, furs, timber, resin (or tar), flax, honey, wheat, and rye from the east to Flanders and England with cloth, in particular broadcloth, (and, increasingly, manufactured goods) going in the other direction. Metal ore (principally copper and iron) and herring came southwards from Sweden, the Carpathians were another important source of copper and iron, often sold in Thorn. Lubeck also had a vital role in the salt trade, salt was acquired in Lunenburg or shipped from France and Portugal and sold on Central European markets, taken to Scania for salting herring or exported to Russia.
But I feel it's pretty important to say that this chapter doesn't mention all the goods mentioned. It names the ones in bold with the origin, intermediate stop or staple market and destination, and it also mentions grain although that's not specified and it's said that this was a kinda late development. But the other trading goods aren't mentioned so the paragraph isn't fully cited yet. 195.169.52.98 ( talk) 10:38, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
I use an account now. Could you look if the quotes I added aren't too long? JaikeV ( talk) 10:33, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
I first noticed the section when I was looking for Fellin and Pernau in the cities list, as it is widely accepted at least in Estonia that those were Hanseatic cities. I found the cities in the Other cities with a Hanseatic Community and that made me wonder, what differentiates that list from the one a bit above it? JDFRG ( talk) 20:16, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
The word "Kontor", whatever its use in Low German, is used in the historical literature for the "big four" (Novgorod, London, Bergen, Bruges-Antwerp). I suggest we use it the same way in the list, and call the smaller trading posts "outposts" or "factories". JaikeV ( talk) 14:02, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
The article currently uses the word "capital" (for cities) kinda recklessly. I think it's pretty arguable if Lübeck was even an "informal capital", but the main towns of the Drittel and Quarters certainly were no capitals. I suggest that this word is removed for cities. JaikeV ( talk) 14:10, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
[Message text copied here from
User talk:Pdebee:]
Hi, if I want to get input from other editors on an article, what's a good place to find it? And is it also possible to hide those totally massive lists with a click? JaikeV ( talk) 12:41, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
those totally massive lists? Thank you.
I propose to merge "Legacy Hanseatic connections" and "Modern versions of the Hanseatic League", maybe "In popular culture" too. They aren't really about the Hanseatic League at all but about its legacy or its later reception. It's not very relevant to the actual Hanseatic League too so hopefully it can be shortened at a point. JaikeV ( talk) 13:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
You can find the quote here, but it's not full view https://books.google.nl/books?id=GMGe7oMbx9UC&q=%22In+civitate+Londonia%22+%22in+Curia+Calibis%22 JaikeV ( talk) 12:32, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
The list of names at the start is a bit too long. Another user put it in a reference as clutter, and while I totally don't think that's a good idea, I agree it's all a bit much. Could some of it be placed in a footnote or in a later section? (@ Pdebee) Imo it's good sense to keep one Middle Low German and one German name in there. JaikeV ( talk) 09:35, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
[Message text copied here from
User talk:Pdebee:]
Thought I'd clarify after this that the flag of Belgium probably identifies member cities like Dinant and not the kontors in Bruges and Antwerp. The kontors were trading posts abroad for the Hansards, so not really "part of" the Hanseatic League. The flags of UK/England and Norway aren't in the box too. JaikeV ( talk) 13:28, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
these cities with kontors weren't members and their traders certainly didn't have reciprocal privileges in Hanseatic towns, then why do you say that
... Belgium fits in that list for a different reason.? In other words: what is that other reason?
Should include this under “Hanseatic”, Legacy section.
A Hanse trader was a “Hansard”. This evidently became a family name, and one Thomas Hansard descendant became the “King’s Printer” around 1800 and printed the British Parliament’s speeches. These records continue to date, and are still called Hansard” Carrt7 ( talk) 16:39, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
There are mistakenly the CoA of Stendal with the town of Uelzen — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harmen Ströntistel ( talk • contribs) 20:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Hello,
this listing seems to include both members of the Hanseatic League and towns merely connected economically. Sarcelles ( talk) 20:34, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
The reference named "Miruß" in the article (Miruß, Alexander (1838). Das See-Recht und die Fluß-Schifffahrt nach den Preußischen Gesetzen. Leipzig: JC Hinrichsschen Buchhandlung. p. 17. Retrieved 2 May 2011.) lists the following cities not included within the list Hansa proper in this article:
Sarcelles ( talk) 16:36, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
-- Sarcelles ( talk) 09:21, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
p. 772/773 has a list of places, whose membership in the Hanseatic League is unclear:
Kind regards, −− Sarcelles ( talk) 09:30, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
http://european-heritage.org/germany/münster/hanse/chronicle-hanseatic-league-continued has the following:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qiBBAQAAIAAJ&q=Dąbie+hanza&dq=Dąbie+hanza&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZ9OW8_bbZAhWEaRQKHSV7D34Q6AEIOzAD has the following:
It says, that the following were not members
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jT9EDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA64&dq=winterberg+hanse&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwje8f-3_7bZAhUMyKQKHYtxDL0Q6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=winterberg%20hanse&f=false has Winterberg.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=t-HuCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=Schmallenberg+Hanse&source=bl&ots=-olxKc6bJa&sig=SKw-99-j1OC7fBD45PW6giPCByM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBgJqIgLfZAhVCshQKHbSABIM4ChDoAQhTMAU#v=onepage&q=Schmallenberg%20Hanse&f=false has Schmallenberg.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AskUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA206&dq=Ommen+Hanze&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivs6O5gbfZAhVBrCwKHVK4CxIQ6AEIZjAJ#v=onepage&q=Ommen%20Hanze&f=false has the following ones:
https://www.digibron.nl/search/detail/bb3395c27ef83e93b59a0dc57e06d5ab/l-becks-kooplieden-dwongen-vorsten-tot-oorlog-en-vrede has Tiel.
https://www.europese-bibliotheek.nl/en/Books/Schttorf_in_alten_Ansichten/100-129110/Article has Schüttorf.
https://www.lwl.org/westfalen-regional-download/PDF/059n_Hanse.pdf has the follwing on its map, including cases of ’’zugewandter Ort’’, which possibly is not a membership of the Hanseatic League:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iea5CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=Dramburg+Hanse+Dollinger&source=bl&ots=eRg4mx6JKS&sig=XEpGT_5VmJn1PYClRmO1bHMeVDk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-6rLGrbnZAhVECuwKHSAVAooQ6AEIQzAD#v=onepage&q=Dramburg%20Hanse%20Dollinger&f=false. Which of these sources are valid? -- Sarcelles ( talk) 12:13, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Dear fellow editors,
I am leaving the present message out of courtesy to other editors watching this article.
For quite some time now, I have been wanting to improve the formatting of the two tables (
Hansa Proper and
Kontore), where the Refs column is currently very wide and takes a lot of space because it contains a horizontal list of only a few superscript digits for the references, thus causing the Notes column to be much too narrow (especially for
Kontore) which, in turn, makes the prose in 'Notes' difficult to read, and the table deeper than it could be if that column were a bit wider, to accommodate more prose in each cell.
Therefore, I have slightly redesigned both tables, and only to ensure that the superscript digits in the Refs column are displayed in a vertical list; this therefore makes the column suitably more narrow, thus enabling the Notes column to be wider, which makes the prose easier to read, and both tables less deep.
The solution was quite simple: in each cell of the Refs column, the list of refs is now embedded in a {{plainlist| ... }}
template, which will align the superscript digits vertically in the cell; this makes the cell as wide as necessary to contain only one digit and its optional page number(s). (For those interested in the details, feel free to look in my
sandbox and its
talk page, where I have been ably advised by
jmcgnh and
AntiCompositeNumber.)
I will soon apply the new format to both tables, which will now also include commented guidance (in the editable source) on how to code the contents of the cells in the Refs column.
With kind regards; Patrick. ツ
Pdebee.
(talk)(become
old-fashioned!)
16:06, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
I first noticed the section when I was looking for Fellin and Pernau in the cities list, as it is widely accepted at least in Estonia that those were Hanseatic cities. I found the cities in the Other cities with a Hanseatic Community and that made me wonder, what differentiates that list from the one a bit above it? JDFRG ( talk) 20:16, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
There's a good deal of words in standard modern German in the article's text. I understand that's the result of historiography and lines up with the literature, but I feel at a point it becomes anachronistic and sometimes it's not really needed or even excessive. An example is "Organization". I see the relevance of continuing to use Kontor, Tagfahrt, Hansetag and Einung or even Drittel in the text, but should Ältermann be used multiple times instead of alderman? Maybe it could sometimes also mention the Middle Low German words. JaikeV ( talk) 10:59, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
[Message text copied here from
User talk:Pdebee#Dutch reference in "Commercial expansion":]
Hi, I added the Dutch reference to this portion:
The league primarily traded beeswax, furs, timber, resin (or tar), flax, honey, wheat, and rye from the east to Flanders and England with cloth, in particular broadcloth, (and, increasingly, manufactured goods) going in the other direction. Metal ore (principally copper and iron) and herring came southwards from Sweden, the Carpathians were another important source of copper and iron, often sold in Thorn. Lubeck also had a vital role in the salt trade, salt was acquired in Lunenburg or shipped from France and Portugal and sold on Central European markets, taken to Scania for salting herring or exported to Russia.
But I feel it's pretty important to say that this chapter doesn't mention all the goods mentioned. It names the ones in bold with the origin, intermediate stop or staple market and destination, and it also mentions grain although that's not specified and it's said that this was a kinda late development. But the other trading goods aren't mentioned so the paragraph isn't fully cited yet. 195.169.52.98 ( talk) 10:38, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
I use an account now. Could you look if the quotes I added aren't too long? JaikeV ( talk) 10:33, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
I first noticed the section when I was looking for Fellin and Pernau in the cities list, as it is widely accepted at least in Estonia that those were Hanseatic cities. I found the cities in the Other cities with a Hanseatic Community and that made me wonder, what differentiates that list from the one a bit above it? JDFRG ( talk) 20:16, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
The word "Kontor", whatever its use in Low German, is used in the historical literature for the "big four" (Novgorod, London, Bergen, Bruges-Antwerp). I suggest we use it the same way in the list, and call the smaller trading posts "outposts" or "factories". JaikeV ( talk) 14:02, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
The article currently uses the word "capital" (for cities) kinda recklessly. I think it's pretty arguable if Lübeck was even an "informal capital", but the main towns of the Drittel and Quarters certainly were no capitals. I suggest that this word is removed for cities. JaikeV ( talk) 14:10, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
[Message text copied here from
User talk:Pdebee:]
Hi, if I want to get input from other editors on an article, what's a good place to find it? And is it also possible to hide those totally massive lists with a click? JaikeV ( talk) 12:41, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
those totally massive lists? Thank you.
I propose to merge "Legacy Hanseatic connections" and "Modern versions of the Hanseatic League", maybe "In popular culture" too. They aren't really about the Hanseatic League at all but about its legacy or its later reception. It's not very relevant to the actual Hanseatic League too so hopefully it can be shortened at a point. JaikeV ( talk) 13:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
You can find the quote here, but it's not full view https://books.google.nl/books?id=GMGe7oMbx9UC&q=%22In+civitate+Londonia%22+%22in+Curia+Calibis%22 JaikeV ( talk) 12:32, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
The list of names at the start is a bit too long. Another user put it in a reference as clutter, and while I totally don't think that's a good idea, I agree it's all a bit much. Could some of it be placed in a footnote or in a later section? (@ Pdebee) Imo it's good sense to keep one Middle Low German and one German name in there. JaikeV ( talk) 09:35, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
[Message text copied here from
User talk:Pdebee:]
Thought I'd clarify after this that the flag of Belgium probably identifies member cities like Dinant and not the kontors in Bruges and Antwerp. The kontors were trading posts abroad for the Hansards, so not really "part of" the Hanseatic League. The flags of UK/England and Norway aren't in the box too. JaikeV ( talk) 13:28, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
these cities with kontors weren't members and their traders certainly didn't have reciprocal privileges in Hanseatic towns, then why do you say that
... Belgium fits in that list for a different reason.? In other words: what is that other reason?
Should include this under “Hanseatic”, Legacy section.
A Hanse trader was a “Hansard”. This evidently became a family name, and one Thomas Hansard descendant became the “King’s Printer” around 1800 and printed the British Parliament’s speeches. These records continue to date, and are still called Hansard” Carrt7 ( talk) 16:39, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
There are mistakenly the CoA of Stendal with the town of Uelzen — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harmen Ströntistel ( talk • contribs) 20:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)