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Where on the novels or the films is "explicitly revealed" Lecter's I.Q. to be 200+?? If I get no response I may remove it.
Quote from Silence of the Lambs Novel: Pg:199
Senator Martin and Hannibal Lecter considered each other, one extremely bright and the other not measurable by any means known to man.
Nothing definitive, unfortunately. -- Majinvegeta 06:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Hannibal is not a sociopath. Whoever keeps on reverting my edits, please stop.-- CyberGhostface 01:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Agreed: please note Clarice's allusion to the point: "I am still wating for the shallowness of affect".
Without diving too deeply, those suffering from antisocial personality disorder tend to display winsome characteristics that are insincere and shallow-handed; Clarice's observation tends to suggest otherwise in Lector.
Obviously the presence (or lack of) this behavioral component does not necessarily illuminate or destroy the notion of Lector with APD, yet it appears to be Clarice's wink in that general direction....
Unless I am missing something; is there other evidence supporting / contradicting this idea?
Thanks, Aaron 12.8.2006
Lecter isn't anything specific. Harris did this intentionally to make him unique from other fictional serial killers. Yes, he does display psychopathic behavior, yes he does display sociopathic behavior (what the hell's the difference between the two anyway? There's no confirmed definition that specifies their differences). A sociopath is the closest thing that does explain his condition, even though he lacks certain characteristics.-- Majinvegeta 04:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Harris called him sociopath, didn't he? So he is a sociopath. Don't forget that Hannibal is a fictional character and Harris is the one who created him, not us, even if Hannibal (or rather Harris..) afterwards fails to show those special characteristics.
87.110.154.39
18:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC) Chris
Nobody knows what is the problem with Hannibal Lecter only because Asperger's Syndrom is almost totally unknown. It is not my intention to write here a long discussion, but just to point out to anybody who wonders about this, if you want to understand Hannibal Lecter/Thomas Harris, read about Asperger's Syndrome. Asperger's Syndrome (A.S.) is a combination of abnormally high logical intelligence plus zero social intelligence. But the condition is genetic, and the genes affect also other family members, and it is among the siblings of A.S. sufferers that you find people strikingly similar to Hannibal Lecter regarding abnormally high logical and social intelligence, and other neurological abnormalities. I know this because I suffer from A.S. myself and "Silence of the Lambs" and Hannibal Lecter have been discussed extensively in our (now defunct) user group.
Hehe...identifying with Lector is kind of a confirmation bias. I agree that Asperger's Syndrome is possibly what Lector "suffers" from, yet I do not agree that the data in the books or movies is conclusive enough (without direct mention of the disorder, ideas quickly become speculative) to make a convincing argument.
Thanks, Aaron 12.8.2006
I like your Post-Traumatic Stress suggestion: it seems like Lector embodies many of the qualites (moreso perhaps than APD or Asperger's) that PTSD maintains.
I think Lector is to remain an enigma; a Tom Bombadil, if you like. It might be interesting to flesh-out the hypothesis that, owing to his advanced intellect, Lector has a unique personality type: maybe not even exhibiting a disorder at all. Obviously a controversial premise, but a premise nonetheless.
As someone with the disorder myself, I can say from personal experience that Lecter does NOT have Asberger's syndrome. He's a psychopath. I know many people with psychopathic disorders, and am very familiar with both conditions. Asberger's syndrome has been confused with psychopathy since Asberger first called it Autistic Psychopathy, because both disorders deal with a supposed lack of empathy. But in reality the two disorders are completely different. Autistic people lack what is called "social intelligence." They desperately care what other people think, want to be liked and loved, want to express themselves to people, but can't because they find it difficult to read the body language that are necessary for social interactions. Psychopaths, conversely, have exceptionally high social intelligence; they often appear very charming and almost bewitching in their ability to make people like them. Psychopaths like Ted Bundy and Richard Remirez, who had admitted to the most disgusting rapes and murders, still managed to gain huge female followings, even among the nursing staff, who found themselves drawn to them for reasons they couldn't explain. Psychopaths can often display every possible emotion, because they are very good observers and mimics and can copy to a striking degree every bit of body language that people use to convey sympathy, love or compassion, but the difference is that they don't feel sympathy, love, or compassion. They are shells. They have no conscience or love in them whatsoever, unlike autistic people, who feel both these things, but can't express them. That is the difference. Serendipodous 11:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I found quite an inconsistency, in the book Hannibal, It states that he was 6 when his family was killed and his sister was cannibalized. This is also stated the same thing on the Red Dragon DVD (Lecter's FBI file, which follows the book canon, not the movie one), and that his family was killed (same year in the article), this leads to controversy of his age because in Hannibal Rising, it states that he was born in 1933 and was twelve when his family was killed. That is quite an inconsistency, maybe an error? Which age should we use? Majin Vegeta
Note that the French Wikipedia article has a January 20, 1933 birthdate. Is there any source to support this? -- Anshelm '77 14:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
This article is painfully long, and it seems to have a lot of indirect information in it. Is there any possible way that we could remove some of the stuff on Lecter' heritage? Some of that stuff is cool to know, but it is too detailed, and takes too long to read through. I was wondering whether or not we could discuss chopping it down? I recently re-cut an article that was about as long as this one, and it came out pretty good. Majinvegeta
Now this may not seem like a very big problem, but when you put it all in front of you it is. It has been noted that in reprint copies of Red Dragon, the name of the hospital Lecter is in is changed from the Chesapeake State Hospital for the Criminally Insane to the Baltimore State Hospital for the Criminally Insane. However, this change is only in that print of the novel, and I believe that there was at least two more prints of the novel since then, both with Chesapeake readded, one of which I own. Also, Lecter's cell is described quite a bit differently in Red Dragon (from what we are told, it looks just like it did in Manhunter) than in The Silence of the Lambs. I think the only solution must be that the hospital was renamed and had quite a renovation over the years, probably between 1978 and 1983, the dates at the end of Red Dragon and the beginning of The Silence of the Lambs, as most recently stated by Thomas Harris. 71.241.177.108 01:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Agree, even the dates in the movies are all out of whack. If you go from Red Dragon (Lecter's arrest in 1980) but then look at Pazzi's computer screen in the movie HANNIBAL, Lecter supposedly escaped in 1991. From his arrest in 1980, to his supposed escape in 1991, that is 11 years incarcerated. He was only incarcerated for 8. Silence the movie takes place in 1988, making it 1998 in the movie Hannibal. In the novel, HANNIBAL takes place in 1990, but the last chapter takes place in 1993. About the religious bit, I agree, but I don't believe that he was ever an Athiest. This could've been an error in Rising. In Hannibal (during the flashbacks) it states that he aknowledges the existence of a careless God, while in Rising, it is clear that he aknowledges no God at all. -- Majinvegeta 20:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
One recent editor added a comment that Lecter never actually eats human flesh on screen in the films, but does he in the novels? I can't remember a scene that actually depicts Lecter consuming human flesh. Serendipodous 20:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Can someone give a list of all of Lecter's victims, specifying the pre-America, pre-incarceration, and post-escape victims, and which were confirmed by the FBI? I know many, maybe even all, but I just can't think of them. It would be helpful if someone did. Thanks. 71.243.181.204 03:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I'll try and do a list from memory. Feel free to amend with any additional bits. Serendipodous 13:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Pre Chesepeake:
Chesepeake:
Incarceration
Post-incarceration
Huh, but this must mean that the article is wrong. Even not counting the assumed murders and not even counting Miggs, there is still over 21 murdered people. Also, was Verger counted in the nine pre-incarceration victims? 71.243.181.204 15:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The pick-pocket incedient wasent even an attempted murder all he tried to do was to castrate him though failed and If Im correct hit him in the liver. Still a murder by definition. Isaac Witte 04:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Also he diddnt kill Mason Verger in the movie his servant killed him at hanibbles suggestion. Also the special fetures of the movie Red Dragon tells about the death of the viola playerIsaac Witte 04:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Someone cranked up the number in the Body Count section. I will revert it, but if they were correct, could you please list these extra victims? Dr. Hannibal Lecter 14:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I've said this before, I know, but nobody responded. I truly believe this article is in serious need of chopping down. There are too many details about indirect information. I just wanted to know what you all think about it, and if it is decided, if you could help with it. -- Majinvegeta 18:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I notice that Hannibal Lecter is listed under fictional Atheists, but he is not an Atheist. Atheists don't believe in the existence of a God; Hannibal does, he just doesn't believe in what the Bible teaches. -- Majinvegeta 07:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I was just wondering if Norman is the real forename of Dr. Fell. I can't find reference to support that claim.-- Majinvegeta 16:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Is age really important? I don't think it is, I believe that only the birth date is fine. I removed the one from the Clarice Starling Article, Info like that only adds length to the article. If people really wanted to know their ages, I believe they are perfectly capable of figuring it out for themselves. -- Majinvegeta 06:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure someone can produce a better picture than the one currently in the infobox. Preferably, the picture should be from Silence. The one in the infobox makes him look old and it isn't how most remember him. Dr. Hannibal Lecter 13:02, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Vote
Red Dragon
Silence
The first paragraph states that Dr. Lecter appears in five novels. I can only find reference to four. What is the fifth one? Deckchair 16:37, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
And it's not even known if it's a Lecter book so it shouldn't even be mentioned in this article until that's confirmed. On one hand Harris has only written Hannibal Lecter novels for more than 25 years but on the other hand he HAS written a non-Lecter book ("Black Sunday") so there's really no telling until it's announced and based on the time between previous Lecter books we won't know for sure for several years. GuruAskew 23:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it's only 4: Red Dragon, Silence, Hannibal, and Hannibal Rising. A movie was made based off of Red Dragon called Manhunter. But that movie was remade into Red Dragon.-- Majinvegeta 15:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't get it. Last time I saw this article, Hannibal was listed as "fictional". Now he's listed as "real". I don't get it. Somebody clarify this!-- 989 RVD 00:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I mean, we already have a chunk of the article explaining Lecter's relevant murders...do we really need a timetable of how Lecter killed them in gory detail? It seems a little too trivial and fancruftish to me...-- CyberGhostface 23:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the list of victims. The whole thing is largely fancruft and trivia. Knowing that Hannibal kills and eats people and some examples of who he's killed is more than enough for an encyclopedia on his character history.-- CyberGhostface 23:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Ummm it says Hannibal attacked the nurse in 1976 but in silence of the lambs doctor chilton says 1981 check if you dont belive me
I was thinking about doing some major alterations to the article, maybe shortening it and adding stuff to other articles in this series to make up for the stuff I want to take out of here. I just feel that this article is way too long, and because of the length, it's hard to stay focused and read through the entire thing. I mean, come on, how many of us have actually sat down and read this article all the way through? I bet you not many of us. I think that it should focus more on Thomas Harris's development/ the iconic image of the character rather then give a full biography of him. He is a fictional character anyway, and this article being the way it is violates some Wikipedia regulations regarding fictional characters. I would like to hear some ideas on this, do you think this is a good idea? I'd like to see what you guys think.-- Majinvegeta 14:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
If you haven't noticed, this IS an article on Hannibal. Article = Biography, in most cases. I sat and read every word.
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Where on the novels or the films is "explicitly revealed" Lecter's I.Q. to be 200+?? If I get no response I may remove it.
Quote from Silence of the Lambs Novel: Pg:199
Senator Martin and Hannibal Lecter considered each other, one extremely bright and the other not measurable by any means known to man.
Nothing definitive, unfortunately. -- Majinvegeta 06:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Hannibal is not a sociopath. Whoever keeps on reverting my edits, please stop.-- CyberGhostface 01:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Agreed: please note Clarice's allusion to the point: "I am still wating for the shallowness of affect".
Without diving too deeply, those suffering from antisocial personality disorder tend to display winsome characteristics that are insincere and shallow-handed; Clarice's observation tends to suggest otherwise in Lector.
Obviously the presence (or lack of) this behavioral component does not necessarily illuminate or destroy the notion of Lector with APD, yet it appears to be Clarice's wink in that general direction....
Unless I am missing something; is there other evidence supporting / contradicting this idea?
Thanks, Aaron 12.8.2006
Lecter isn't anything specific. Harris did this intentionally to make him unique from other fictional serial killers. Yes, he does display psychopathic behavior, yes he does display sociopathic behavior (what the hell's the difference between the two anyway? There's no confirmed definition that specifies their differences). A sociopath is the closest thing that does explain his condition, even though he lacks certain characteristics.-- Majinvegeta 04:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Harris called him sociopath, didn't he? So he is a sociopath. Don't forget that Hannibal is a fictional character and Harris is the one who created him, not us, even if Hannibal (or rather Harris..) afterwards fails to show those special characteristics.
87.110.154.39
18:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC) Chris
Nobody knows what is the problem with Hannibal Lecter only because Asperger's Syndrom is almost totally unknown. It is not my intention to write here a long discussion, but just to point out to anybody who wonders about this, if you want to understand Hannibal Lecter/Thomas Harris, read about Asperger's Syndrome. Asperger's Syndrome (A.S.) is a combination of abnormally high logical intelligence plus zero social intelligence. But the condition is genetic, and the genes affect also other family members, and it is among the siblings of A.S. sufferers that you find people strikingly similar to Hannibal Lecter regarding abnormally high logical and social intelligence, and other neurological abnormalities. I know this because I suffer from A.S. myself and "Silence of the Lambs" and Hannibal Lecter have been discussed extensively in our (now defunct) user group.
Hehe...identifying with Lector is kind of a confirmation bias. I agree that Asperger's Syndrome is possibly what Lector "suffers" from, yet I do not agree that the data in the books or movies is conclusive enough (without direct mention of the disorder, ideas quickly become speculative) to make a convincing argument.
Thanks, Aaron 12.8.2006
I like your Post-Traumatic Stress suggestion: it seems like Lector embodies many of the qualites (moreso perhaps than APD or Asperger's) that PTSD maintains.
I think Lector is to remain an enigma; a Tom Bombadil, if you like. It might be interesting to flesh-out the hypothesis that, owing to his advanced intellect, Lector has a unique personality type: maybe not even exhibiting a disorder at all. Obviously a controversial premise, but a premise nonetheless.
As someone with the disorder myself, I can say from personal experience that Lecter does NOT have Asberger's syndrome. He's a psychopath. I know many people with psychopathic disorders, and am very familiar with both conditions. Asberger's syndrome has been confused with psychopathy since Asberger first called it Autistic Psychopathy, because both disorders deal with a supposed lack of empathy. But in reality the two disorders are completely different. Autistic people lack what is called "social intelligence." They desperately care what other people think, want to be liked and loved, want to express themselves to people, but can't because they find it difficult to read the body language that are necessary for social interactions. Psychopaths, conversely, have exceptionally high social intelligence; they often appear very charming and almost bewitching in their ability to make people like them. Psychopaths like Ted Bundy and Richard Remirez, who had admitted to the most disgusting rapes and murders, still managed to gain huge female followings, even among the nursing staff, who found themselves drawn to them for reasons they couldn't explain. Psychopaths can often display every possible emotion, because they are very good observers and mimics and can copy to a striking degree every bit of body language that people use to convey sympathy, love or compassion, but the difference is that they don't feel sympathy, love, or compassion. They are shells. They have no conscience or love in them whatsoever, unlike autistic people, who feel both these things, but can't express them. That is the difference. Serendipodous 11:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I found quite an inconsistency, in the book Hannibal, It states that he was 6 when his family was killed and his sister was cannibalized. This is also stated the same thing on the Red Dragon DVD (Lecter's FBI file, which follows the book canon, not the movie one), and that his family was killed (same year in the article), this leads to controversy of his age because in Hannibal Rising, it states that he was born in 1933 and was twelve when his family was killed. That is quite an inconsistency, maybe an error? Which age should we use? Majin Vegeta
Note that the French Wikipedia article has a January 20, 1933 birthdate. Is there any source to support this? -- Anshelm '77 14:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
This article is painfully long, and it seems to have a lot of indirect information in it. Is there any possible way that we could remove some of the stuff on Lecter' heritage? Some of that stuff is cool to know, but it is too detailed, and takes too long to read through. I was wondering whether or not we could discuss chopping it down? I recently re-cut an article that was about as long as this one, and it came out pretty good. Majinvegeta
Now this may not seem like a very big problem, but when you put it all in front of you it is. It has been noted that in reprint copies of Red Dragon, the name of the hospital Lecter is in is changed from the Chesapeake State Hospital for the Criminally Insane to the Baltimore State Hospital for the Criminally Insane. However, this change is only in that print of the novel, and I believe that there was at least two more prints of the novel since then, both with Chesapeake readded, one of which I own. Also, Lecter's cell is described quite a bit differently in Red Dragon (from what we are told, it looks just like it did in Manhunter) than in The Silence of the Lambs. I think the only solution must be that the hospital was renamed and had quite a renovation over the years, probably between 1978 and 1983, the dates at the end of Red Dragon and the beginning of The Silence of the Lambs, as most recently stated by Thomas Harris. 71.241.177.108 01:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Agree, even the dates in the movies are all out of whack. If you go from Red Dragon (Lecter's arrest in 1980) but then look at Pazzi's computer screen in the movie HANNIBAL, Lecter supposedly escaped in 1991. From his arrest in 1980, to his supposed escape in 1991, that is 11 years incarcerated. He was only incarcerated for 8. Silence the movie takes place in 1988, making it 1998 in the movie Hannibal. In the novel, HANNIBAL takes place in 1990, but the last chapter takes place in 1993. About the religious bit, I agree, but I don't believe that he was ever an Athiest. This could've been an error in Rising. In Hannibal (during the flashbacks) it states that he aknowledges the existence of a careless God, while in Rising, it is clear that he aknowledges no God at all. -- Majinvegeta 20:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
One recent editor added a comment that Lecter never actually eats human flesh on screen in the films, but does he in the novels? I can't remember a scene that actually depicts Lecter consuming human flesh. Serendipodous 20:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Can someone give a list of all of Lecter's victims, specifying the pre-America, pre-incarceration, and post-escape victims, and which were confirmed by the FBI? I know many, maybe even all, but I just can't think of them. It would be helpful if someone did. Thanks. 71.243.181.204 03:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I'll try and do a list from memory. Feel free to amend with any additional bits. Serendipodous 13:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Pre Chesepeake:
Chesepeake:
Incarceration
Post-incarceration
Huh, but this must mean that the article is wrong. Even not counting the assumed murders and not even counting Miggs, there is still over 21 murdered people. Also, was Verger counted in the nine pre-incarceration victims? 71.243.181.204 15:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The pick-pocket incedient wasent even an attempted murder all he tried to do was to castrate him though failed and If Im correct hit him in the liver. Still a murder by definition. Isaac Witte 04:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Also he diddnt kill Mason Verger in the movie his servant killed him at hanibbles suggestion. Also the special fetures of the movie Red Dragon tells about the death of the viola playerIsaac Witte 04:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Someone cranked up the number in the Body Count section. I will revert it, but if they were correct, could you please list these extra victims? Dr. Hannibal Lecter 14:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I've said this before, I know, but nobody responded. I truly believe this article is in serious need of chopping down. There are too many details about indirect information. I just wanted to know what you all think about it, and if it is decided, if you could help with it. -- Majinvegeta 18:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I notice that Hannibal Lecter is listed under fictional Atheists, but he is not an Atheist. Atheists don't believe in the existence of a God; Hannibal does, he just doesn't believe in what the Bible teaches. -- Majinvegeta 07:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I was just wondering if Norman is the real forename of Dr. Fell. I can't find reference to support that claim.-- Majinvegeta 16:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Is age really important? I don't think it is, I believe that only the birth date is fine. I removed the one from the Clarice Starling Article, Info like that only adds length to the article. If people really wanted to know their ages, I believe they are perfectly capable of figuring it out for themselves. -- Majinvegeta 06:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure someone can produce a better picture than the one currently in the infobox. Preferably, the picture should be from Silence. The one in the infobox makes him look old and it isn't how most remember him. Dr. Hannibal Lecter 13:02, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Vote
Red Dragon
Silence
The first paragraph states that Dr. Lecter appears in five novels. I can only find reference to four. What is the fifth one? Deckchair 16:37, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
And it's not even known if it's a Lecter book so it shouldn't even be mentioned in this article until that's confirmed. On one hand Harris has only written Hannibal Lecter novels for more than 25 years but on the other hand he HAS written a non-Lecter book ("Black Sunday") so there's really no telling until it's announced and based on the time between previous Lecter books we won't know for sure for several years. GuruAskew 23:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it's only 4: Red Dragon, Silence, Hannibal, and Hannibal Rising. A movie was made based off of Red Dragon called Manhunter. But that movie was remade into Red Dragon.-- Majinvegeta 15:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't get it. Last time I saw this article, Hannibal was listed as "fictional". Now he's listed as "real". I don't get it. Somebody clarify this!-- 989 RVD 00:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I mean, we already have a chunk of the article explaining Lecter's relevant murders...do we really need a timetable of how Lecter killed them in gory detail? It seems a little too trivial and fancruftish to me...-- CyberGhostface 23:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the list of victims. The whole thing is largely fancruft and trivia. Knowing that Hannibal kills and eats people and some examples of who he's killed is more than enough for an encyclopedia on his character history.-- CyberGhostface 23:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Ummm it says Hannibal attacked the nurse in 1976 but in silence of the lambs doctor chilton says 1981 check if you dont belive me
I was thinking about doing some major alterations to the article, maybe shortening it and adding stuff to other articles in this series to make up for the stuff I want to take out of here. I just feel that this article is way too long, and because of the length, it's hard to stay focused and read through the entire thing. I mean, come on, how many of us have actually sat down and read this article all the way through? I bet you not many of us. I think that it should focus more on Thomas Harris's development/ the iconic image of the character rather then give a full biography of him. He is a fictional character anyway, and this article being the way it is violates some Wikipedia regulations regarding fictional characters. I would like to hear some ideas on this, do you think this is a good idea? I'd like to see what you guys think.-- Majinvegeta 14:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
If you haven't noticed, this IS an article on Hannibal. Article = Biography, in most cases. I sat and read every word.