The article needs a discussion of the "break" vs "don't break" opposing schools of thought re halters. This parallels the opposing schools of thought re tying a horse. -- Una Smith ( talk) 17:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
As in the question of whether halters should or should not break under pressure? Yes. Actually, have heard a rumble that Horse Journal might be doing an article on that very topic sometime this year, I subscribe, so will stay tuned. Montanabw (talk) 05:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Saw the commentary on riding with a halter on the bitless bridle section. I guess the short version of my take on the matter is, sure, you can ride a gentle horse in a halter around the ring -- if nothing goes wrong. (Heck you can ride completely bridleless too) But if something goes wrong, you can get the leverage to do something about it in a bridle or hackamore or well-designed what have you, but in the average halter they can just ignore you totally...if you have reins on the side, an adult can probably force a runaway horse into a circle with a halter, but a child won't be able to. I see people ride in rope halters, I suppose the knots on the noseband provide some emergency pressure in a crisis, but I wouldn't count on it, myself. I know some people even try breaking horses in those rope halters, in theory I suppose you can train a horse in anything, but nowdays the only people I have actually seen doing so were a hazard to everyone around them. (Also remember a show where a kid did a bridleless exhibition, the horse bolted, ran around the ring with the kid for about 5 minutes before it settled down, scared the socks off of everyone, luckily no one hurt.) Just seen too many wrecks and near-wrecks. A lawyer could make mincemeat out of someone who let a kid ride a horse with a halter if someone got hurt, open and shut liability case. Montanabw (talk) 09:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I think here is the essence of the matter. If you have a disrespectful horse, riding in a halter probably would be a very bad idea. Disrespectful horses often do respect the bit more than the halter. But, relying on a bit like this is such a dangerous thing for a rider to do! Specify that the safety issue re using a halter to ride concerns (dis)respect. -- Una Smith ( talk) 07:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
The other point is that even a "gentle" horse can be spooked by something out of the ordinary. A bad spook can also be due to greenness, or often due to the unexpected -- things like ducks flushing from a ditch, etc.. (IMHO, most "psychotic" horses I have seen are made that way by inept and/or abusive handling.) I personally haven't been run away with for a very long time, (knocking on wood) but that doesn't mean I haven't had horses spook with me, but having that three seconds and the right gear to apply a pulley rein sometimes has been the only reason we just spun in a couple of circles and then went back to our merry way rather than winding up somewhere in the next county (or me on the ground). I don't think I, as a grown adult, have the physical strength to apply a pulley rein on an ordinary halter, and I frankly have been rather leery of being able to do so even with a sidepull or a jumping caveson, though I've used them. Naturally, there are some situations where no piece of equipment will stop a true panic (read about a case where some hot air balloons went off course and flew over a horse show, wherein most of the horses in the ring at the time left without use of the gate, several injuries...) I can't say about various halters designed to add additional pressure or leverage, if they allow an ordinary-sized female rider to apply a pulley rein on an ordinary spook and attempted bolt, then they are probably reasonably safe.
Back to "leverage", I see three separate concepts in play here.
-- Una Smith ( talk) 16:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Here are some other points of debate:
Along those lines, some people insist a nylon halter (rope or web) never be used in the back country, in case the horse is lost. These people insist on cotton or leather halters, which they expect will quickly rot and fall off, lessening the risk of trapping and hence killing the horse. -- Una Smith ( talk) 16:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Full definition from the OED, you might want to research this stuff a bit more before you put it in. Don't mean to be snarky, but halters are not hackamores and hackamores are not halters, even if people do ride in both. Montanabw (talk) 08:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
halter: (n)
Etymology:
OE. hælftre = OHG. halftra (Ger. halfter), MDu. halfter, halter, OLG. heliftra, MLG. helchter, halter:WGer. *halftra-, *haliftra-, f. root *hal-, whence OHG. halb, MLG. and MDu. helve, OE. helfe: see HELVE. The primary sense was 'that by which anything is held': cf. L. capistrum halter. The f between l and t was lost in ME. as in MDu. and MHG. 1. a. A rope, cord, or strap with a noose or head-stall, by which horses or cattle are led or fastened up.
a1000 Gloss. in Wr.-Wülcker 199/14 Capistrum, hælfter, uel cælfster. a1100 Ibid. 332/18 Capistrum, hælfstre. c1175 Lamb. Hom. 53 et is es deofles helfter. a1250 Owl & Night. 1028 Hom ne mai halter ne bridel Bringe. 1390 Gower: Conf. II. 48 And trusse her halters forth with me. 14.. Nom. in Wr.-Wülcker 727/44 Hoc capistrum, a heltyr. c1450 St. Cuthbert (Surtees) 5361 e hors heltirs to breke he ran. 1497 Naval Acc. Hen. VII (1896) 119 Horsharnes without halters. 1546 J Heywood: Prov. (1867) 44 It wolde haue made a hors breake his halter sure. 1760-72 tr. Juan & Uloa's Voy. (ed. 3) II. 240 The nooses, or halters, are thongs of a cow's hide. 1835 Lytton Rienzi V. v, The horse runs from one hand, the halter remains in the other.
b. A strap attached to the top of a backless bodice and looped round the neck; also, a bodice with such a strap or cut so as to give a similar effect. Hence attrib. and Comb., as halter neck(line), top
2. a. A rope with a noose for hanging malefactors.
b. Used typically for death by hanging; 'the gallows'.
3. attrib. and Comb., as halter-chain, -maker, -place, -seller, -strap, -string; halter-proof adj.; halter-break v. U.S., to accustom (a horse, etc.) to a halter; to break by means of a halter; halter-cast ppl. a. (see quots.); halter hitch (see quot. 1944); halter-man, a hangman. Also HALTER-SACK, -SICK
1837 N.Y. Mirror 28 Oct. 140/3 The moose has been frequently tamed, and unlike the common deer, can be *halter-broken as easily as a horse. 1860 J G Holland Miss Gilbert's Career xix. 350 You want to halter-break 'em when they're little and get 'em kind o' wonted to the feel of the harness. 1868 Rep. Iowa Agric. Soc. 1867 117 My colts are halter-broken as soon as foaled. 1883 W H Bishop in Harper's Mag. Oct. 725/2 They are halter-broke, and turned loose again. 1704 Worlidge Dict. Rust., *Halter Cast happens thus: when a Horse endeavours to scrub the itching part of his Body near the Head or Neck, one of his hinder Feet entangles in the Halter..by the violent strugling of the Horse to disingage himself, receives sometimes very dangerous hurts in the hollow of his Pastern. 1813 Sporting Mag. XLII. 58 Danger of being halter cast, which has proved fatal to so many horses. 1831 J Holland Manuf. Metal I. 183 *Halter-chains..used with bridles. 1944 C. W. ASHLEY Bk. Knots ii. 44 Halter hitch. Horses are hitched with this knot the world over. The end is stuck loosely through the loop, which is not tightened. The knot is easily slipped after removing the end from the loop. 1947 Times Lit. Suppl. 15 Nov. 594/4 When he was seven he was given a pony on condition that he mastered a halter hitch. 1596 Nashe (title) Haue with you to Saffron-walden, or, Gabriell Harueys Hunt is vp. Containing a full Answere to the eldest sonne of the *Halter-maker. 1638 Conceited Lett. (N.), *Halter-men and ballet-makers were not better set aworke this many a day. 1630 J Taylor(Water P.) Trav. Wks. III. 80/1 The priuiledges of this graund *Haulter-master are many. 1704 Lond. Gaz. No. 4082/4 A bay Nag..with..a Dent cross his Nose in the *Halter-place. a1679 Earl of OrreryGuzman 111, By your Charms you may make your self *Halter-proof. c1515 Cocke Lorell's B. (Percy) 5 Hary *halter seler at tyborn. 1753 Chambers: Cycl. Supp., *Halter-Strap or String, a cord, or long strap of leather, made fast to the head-stall, and to the manger, to tye the horse.
halter (v)
1. trans. To put a halter upon (a horse or the like); to fasten up with a halter.
c1440 Promp. Parv. 235/1 Heltryn beestys, capistro. 1530 Palsgre 577/2, I halter, I tye in a halter, Iencheuestre. 1617 Markham Caval. I. 75 When the colt is haltered. 1881 FennOff to Wilds xxix. (1888) 203 The horses were haltered up to the wheels. fig. 1647 Trapp Comm. Matt. xxii. 12 He was muzzled or haltered up, that is, he held his peace, as though he had had a bridle or a halter in his mouth. 1650 R Staylton Strada's Low C. Warres II. 35 Should they now halter themselves, called by a woman's voice?
2. fig. To put a restraint or check upon; to bridle; to fetter; to hamper.
1577 B GOOGE Heresbach's Husb. III. (1586) 130 A faire feelde, that the Steeres may..not be feard, or haltred, with trees, or bushes. 1679 Hist. Jetzer 22 They thought they had made him their own, and halter'd up his Conscience.
3. To catch or entrap with a noose or lasso.
1573-80 Baret Alv. H 54 To halter, or intangle, laqueum injicere alicui. 1597-8 Bp Hall Sat. (1753) 70 Or halter finches through a privy doore. a1625 Beum & Fl Wit without M. IV. ii, What pretty gins thou hast to halter woodcocks! a1732 Atterbury (T.), Catching moles and haltering frogs. 1760-72 tr. Juan & Ulloa's Voy. (ed. 3) I. 416 They are very dextrous in haltering a bull at full speed..The noose is made of cow hide.
4. To put a halter about the neck of (a person); to hang (a person) with a halter. Hence haltering vbl. n.
1591 Percival Sp. Dict., Cabestrage, haltering. 1598 Florio Capestratura prima, the first haltering of a coult.
Originally the word halter (other than in US), referred to a hemp or cotton head that possessed a headpiece, noseband and attached lead. Summerhayes in “Encyclopaedia for Horsemen” defined Head Collar (sic), Head Stall (sic), thus: “A leather head for leading an unbitted horse or tying up in a stall.” Over the years, in some places, the terms halter, headcollar and headstall have become interchangeable. The commonly seen headstall is the Newmarket design. A bridle without reins and bit is known as a bridle head. I can provide more info and refs. if required. Cgoodwin ( talk) 00:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Just a FYI... Johnson rope halter is not a brand name, at least not any more. It is still available in some tack shops, under various brand names, and can be made from scratch using off-the-shelf hardware. -- Una Smith ( talk) 01:53, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
FYI, though done without consensus, I am actually OK with the Lead (tack) breakout. However, a bit more mention that halters have leads needs to remain in the halter article, if somewhat cut down. I also think that further discussion about this article needs to come here to the talk page for discussion and consensus. I don't know about you, but I have to eat and sleep, it's tiring to waste time on edit wars when ideas can be worked out here. Montanabw (talk) 07:10, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
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The article needs a discussion of the "break" vs "don't break" opposing schools of thought re halters. This parallels the opposing schools of thought re tying a horse. -- Una Smith ( talk) 17:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
As in the question of whether halters should or should not break under pressure? Yes. Actually, have heard a rumble that Horse Journal might be doing an article on that very topic sometime this year, I subscribe, so will stay tuned. Montanabw (talk) 05:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Saw the commentary on riding with a halter on the bitless bridle section. I guess the short version of my take on the matter is, sure, you can ride a gentle horse in a halter around the ring -- if nothing goes wrong. (Heck you can ride completely bridleless too) But if something goes wrong, you can get the leverage to do something about it in a bridle or hackamore or well-designed what have you, but in the average halter they can just ignore you totally...if you have reins on the side, an adult can probably force a runaway horse into a circle with a halter, but a child won't be able to. I see people ride in rope halters, I suppose the knots on the noseband provide some emergency pressure in a crisis, but I wouldn't count on it, myself. I know some people even try breaking horses in those rope halters, in theory I suppose you can train a horse in anything, but nowdays the only people I have actually seen doing so were a hazard to everyone around them. (Also remember a show where a kid did a bridleless exhibition, the horse bolted, ran around the ring with the kid for about 5 minutes before it settled down, scared the socks off of everyone, luckily no one hurt.) Just seen too many wrecks and near-wrecks. A lawyer could make mincemeat out of someone who let a kid ride a horse with a halter if someone got hurt, open and shut liability case. Montanabw (talk) 09:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I think here is the essence of the matter. If you have a disrespectful horse, riding in a halter probably would be a very bad idea. Disrespectful horses often do respect the bit more than the halter. But, relying on a bit like this is such a dangerous thing for a rider to do! Specify that the safety issue re using a halter to ride concerns (dis)respect. -- Una Smith ( talk) 07:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
The other point is that even a "gentle" horse can be spooked by something out of the ordinary. A bad spook can also be due to greenness, or often due to the unexpected -- things like ducks flushing from a ditch, etc.. (IMHO, most "psychotic" horses I have seen are made that way by inept and/or abusive handling.) I personally haven't been run away with for a very long time, (knocking on wood) but that doesn't mean I haven't had horses spook with me, but having that three seconds and the right gear to apply a pulley rein sometimes has been the only reason we just spun in a couple of circles and then went back to our merry way rather than winding up somewhere in the next county (or me on the ground). I don't think I, as a grown adult, have the physical strength to apply a pulley rein on an ordinary halter, and I frankly have been rather leery of being able to do so even with a sidepull or a jumping caveson, though I've used them. Naturally, there are some situations where no piece of equipment will stop a true panic (read about a case where some hot air balloons went off course and flew over a horse show, wherein most of the horses in the ring at the time left without use of the gate, several injuries...) I can't say about various halters designed to add additional pressure or leverage, if they allow an ordinary-sized female rider to apply a pulley rein on an ordinary spook and attempted bolt, then they are probably reasonably safe.
Back to "leverage", I see three separate concepts in play here.
-- Una Smith ( talk) 16:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Here are some other points of debate:
Along those lines, some people insist a nylon halter (rope or web) never be used in the back country, in case the horse is lost. These people insist on cotton or leather halters, which they expect will quickly rot and fall off, lessening the risk of trapping and hence killing the horse. -- Una Smith ( talk) 16:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Full definition from the OED, you might want to research this stuff a bit more before you put it in. Don't mean to be snarky, but halters are not hackamores and hackamores are not halters, even if people do ride in both. Montanabw (talk) 08:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
halter: (n)
Etymology:
OE. hælftre = OHG. halftra (Ger. halfter), MDu. halfter, halter, OLG. heliftra, MLG. helchter, halter:WGer. *halftra-, *haliftra-, f. root *hal-, whence OHG. halb, MLG. and MDu. helve, OE. helfe: see HELVE. The primary sense was 'that by which anything is held': cf. L. capistrum halter. The f between l and t was lost in ME. as in MDu. and MHG. 1. a. A rope, cord, or strap with a noose or head-stall, by which horses or cattle are led or fastened up.
a1000 Gloss. in Wr.-Wülcker 199/14 Capistrum, hælfter, uel cælfster. a1100 Ibid. 332/18 Capistrum, hælfstre. c1175 Lamb. Hom. 53 et is es deofles helfter. a1250 Owl & Night. 1028 Hom ne mai halter ne bridel Bringe. 1390 Gower: Conf. II. 48 And trusse her halters forth with me. 14.. Nom. in Wr.-Wülcker 727/44 Hoc capistrum, a heltyr. c1450 St. Cuthbert (Surtees) 5361 e hors heltirs to breke he ran. 1497 Naval Acc. Hen. VII (1896) 119 Horsharnes without halters. 1546 J Heywood: Prov. (1867) 44 It wolde haue made a hors breake his halter sure. 1760-72 tr. Juan & Uloa's Voy. (ed. 3) II. 240 The nooses, or halters, are thongs of a cow's hide. 1835 Lytton Rienzi V. v, The horse runs from one hand, the halter remains in the other.
b. A strap attached to the top of a backless bodice and looped round the neck; also, a bodice with such a strap or cut so as to give a similar effect. Hence attrib. and Comb., as halter neck(line), top
2. a. A rope with a noose for hanging malefactors.
b. Used typically for death by hanging; 'the gallows'.
3. attrib. and Comb., as halter-chain, -maker, -place, -seller, -strap, -string; halter-proof adj.; halter-break v. U.S., to accustom (a horse, etc.) to a halter; to break by means of a halter; halter-cast ppl. a. (see quots.); halter hitch (see quot. 1944); halter-man, a hangman. Also HALTER-SACK, -SICK
1837 N.Y. Mirror 28 Oct. 140/3 The moose has been frequently tamed, and unlike the common deer, can be *halter-broken as easily as a horse. 1860 J G Holland Miss Gilbert's Career xix. 350 You want to halter-break 'em when they're little and get 'em kind o' wonted to the feel of the harness. 1868 Rep. Iowa Agric. Soc. 1867 117 My colts are halter-broken as soon as foaled. 1883 W H Bishop in Harper's Mag. Oct. 725/2 They are halter-broke, and turned loose again. 1704 Worlidge Dict. Rust., *Halter Cast happens thus: when a Horse endeavours to scrub the itching part of his Body near the Head or Neck, one of his hinder Feet entangles in the Halter..by the violent strugling of the Horse to disingage himself, receives sometimes very dangerous hurts in the hollow of his Pastern. 1813 Sporting Mag. XLII. 58 Danger of being halter cast, which has proved fatal to so many horses. 1831 J Holland Manuf. Metal I. 183 *Halter-chains..used with bridles. 1944 C. W. ASHLEY Bk. Knots ii. 44 Halter hitch. Horses are hitched with this knot the world over. The end is stuck loosely through the loop, which is not tightened. The knot is easily slipped after removing the end from the loop. 1947 Times Lit. Suppl. 15 Nov. 594/4 When he was seven he was given a pony on condition that he mastered a halter hitch. 1596 Nashe (title) Haue with you to Saffron-walden, or, Gabriell Harueys Hunt is vp. Containing a full Answere to the eldest sonne of the *Halter-maker. 1638 Conceited Lett. (N.), *Halter-men and ballet-makers were not better set aworke this many a day. 1630 J Taylor(Water P.) Trav. Wks. III. 80/1 The priuiledges of this graund *Haulter-master are many. 1704 Lond. Gaz. No. 4082/4 A bay Nag..with..a Dent cross his Nose in the *Halter-place. a1679 Earl of OrreryGuzman 111, By your Charms you may make your self *Halter-proof. c1515 Cocke Lorell's B. (Percy) 5 Hary *halter seler at tyborn. 1753 Chambers: Cycl. Supp., *Halter-Strap or String, a cord, or long strap of leather, made fast to the head-stall, and to the manger, to tye the horse.
halter (v)
1. trans. To put a halter upon (a horse or the like); to fasten up with a halter.
c1440 Promp. Parv. 235/1 Heltryn beestys, capistro. 1530 Palsgre 577/2, I halter, I tye in a halter, Iencheuestre. 1617 Markham Caval. I. 75 When the colt is haltered. 1881 FennOff to Wilds xxix. (1888) 203 The horses were haltered up to the wheels. fig. 1647 Trapp Comm. Matt. xxii. 12 He was muzzled or haltered up, that is, he held his peace, as though he had had a bridle or a halter in his mouth. 1650 R Staylton Strada's Low C. Warres II. 35 Should they now halter themselves, called by a woman's voice?
2. fig. To put a restraint or check upon; to bridle; to fetter; to hamper.
1577 B GOOGE Heresbach's Husb. III. (1586) 130 A faire feelde, that the Steeres may..not be feard, or haltred, with trees, or bushes. 1679 Hist. Jetzer 22 They thought they had made him their own, and halter'd up his Conscience.
3. To catch or entrap with a noose or lasso.
1573-80 Baret Alv. H 54 To halter, or intangle, laqueum injicere alicui. 1597-8 Bp Hall Sat. (1753) 70 Or halter finches through a privy doore. a1625 Beum & Fl Wit without M. IV. ii, What pretty gins thou hast to halter woodcocks! a1732 Atterbury (T.), Catching moles and haltering frogs. 1760-72 tr. Juan & Ulloa's Voy. (ed. 3) I. 416 They are very dextrous in haltering a bull at full speed..The noose is made of cow hide.
4. To put a halter about the neck of (a person); to hang (a person) with a halter. Hence haltering vbl. n.
1591 Percival Sp. Dict., Cabestrage, haltering. 1598 Florio Capestratura prima, the first haltering of a coult.
Originally the word halter (other than in US), referred to a hemp or cotton head that possessed a headpiece, noseband and attached lead. Summerhayes in “Encyclopaedia for Horsemen” defined Head Collar (sic), Head Stall (sic), thus: “A leather head for leading an unbitted horse or tying up in a stall.” Over the years, in some places, the terms halter, headcollar and headstall have become interchangeable. The commonly seen headstall is the Newmarket design. A bridle without reins and bit is known as a bridle head. I can provide more info and refs. if required. Cgoodwin ( talk) 00:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Just a FYI... Johnson rope halter is not a brand name, at least not any more. It is still available in some tack shops, under various brand names, and can be made from scratch using off-the-shelf hardware. -- Una Smith ( talk) 01:53, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
FYI, though done without consensus, I am actually OK with the Lead (tack) breakout. However, a bit more mention that halters have leads needs to remain in the halter article, if somewhat cut down. I also think that further discussion about this article needs to come here to the talk page for discussion and consensus. I don't know about you, but I have to eat and sleep, it's tiring to waste time on edit wars when ideas can be worked out here. Montanabw (talk) 07:10, 16 November 2008 (UTC)