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"In parts of England, there is a similar festival called holy day which falls on the November 4. During the celebration, children play a range of "tricks" (ranging from minor to more serious) on adults. One of the more serious "tricks" might include the unhinging of garden gates (which were often thrown into ponds, or moved far away). In recent years, such acts have occasionally escalated to extreme vandalism, sometimes involving street fires.[11]"
I've no idea how "holy day" crept in here (vandalism?) but the reference is to Mischief Night. I recall this from my own North Yorkshire childhood, and the reference in the footnote [11] links to a BBC report on Mischief Night.
Also I don't think "festival" (or for that matter "celebration") is the appropriate word, but rather "tradition". It is certainly not approved of or encouraged by adults. 89.243.107.71 14:18, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I'd certainly agree that "festival" isn't the right word, though not entirely sure what is. But I find that the date tends to vary for different parts of the country. it seems that in most of Southern England it's largely unheard of, whilst in Yorkshire it falls on November 4th (as above), whereas in the north-west (well, Liverpool at least, but I think most of the region is the same) it's the night before Hallowe'en. Possibly (/probably?) other variations too. Hengler 00:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
According to the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, page 124, mentioned Halloween as an important Pastafarian holiday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bossudenotredame ( talk • contribs) 06:27, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Fact. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.159.231.94 (
talk) 03:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I know that I will be hated by some of you for calling the popular `wisdom` into question (and by some just for being a Catholic) but I must dispute the statement in this article that says that Halloween ORIGINATED as a pagan holiday. This belief, though widely held, doesn`t seem logical when the facts are considered. I do not say that I know better as of this writting but I would very much like to see more support for this statement before I would accept it and I would like to see it reconciled with other facts that seem to contradict it.
Let us consider that the very name of the holiday suggest that the holiday originated as a Christian holiday. In that Halloween is a simplification of All Hallow`s Eve, it seems ot reveal that Halloween is an after affect and is not the actuall substantive holiday; that distinction being held by the actual All Hallow`s Day. The very fact that it is held as an Eve, thus a vigil or vespers celebration is uniquelly Christian and goes counter to what we know of the Pagans. When we compare the Substantives of the Pagan Holiday with the actual Christian holiday, we find they are not technically celebrated on the same day and that sharing an evening for a few hours is actually an accident. Again I don`t claim to know better absolutely but it does seem to contradict the pagan origination statement.
We must also consider that All Saints Day was promulgated by a Pope living in Souther Europe, Italy, and thus would likely not have knowledge of the pagan practices of Nothern Europe, least of all Britain. If the Pope did know about the Pagan holiday, it is likely that he wouldn`t have cared or let that influence his decision. If the Pope did know and did care, it would be likely that instead of supporting the Pagan holiday, he would instead give Christians better or at least seemingly more important things to do then participate. Of course an reading of the writings of the popes in regards to this holiday would probably enlighten this matter a lot. It does seem very unlikely that the Pope would put the Christian holiday the day after if his intention was to suppress or suplant the Pagan holiday.
We must also consider that All Saints day and thus also the vigil the night before is a major Catholic Holy Day of Obligation that is celebrated the world over with very similar practices in majority Catholic countries. The Pagan holiday mentioned certainly was not so pervasive or successful. It would also appear that while the Pagan practices influence Christians in English speaking countries, they did not influence Catholic Practices in other countries. The actions involved with the Pagan holiday seem to be of a different nature from the Catholic celebration. The Pagan holiday described seems to have more in common with the English speaking holiday of ThanksGiving then with the Christian holiday of All Hallows Eve.
We can compare the results and history of All Hallows Eve with that of Valentines day and see some inconsistancies. Valentine`s day specifically did want to replace a local pagan custom and thus put the observance of it on the same day and was local in character. All Saints day likely was not intended to replace a Pagan custom but create a Christian one to fill a place on the Liturgical Calendar. Thus we see that it was not put on the same day in actuallity, the customs do not seem directly related, the holiday was promulgated to be observed by all and was not local in Character. Also, where as Valentines day sought to supress a practice and thus discouraged the continued Pagan practice in favor of the Christian one; All Saints Day it would seem was influenced by the Pagan holiday in those local areas that had it and did not discourage them.
It seems to me, based on these facts and logic that All Saints Day, in origin was Christian and by accident was influenced by a Pagan holiday in those areas that had it before but in those areas only. The two holidays thus would be seperate and distinct. It doesn`t seem likely that one followed from the other. If the Christians really did want to replace the Pagan holiday, they would have to me put the new holiday on the same day, or the day before, not the day after, it would have been local in character not universal and that there would be a reinterpretation on the practices of the Pagans in a Christian way instead of the practices being substantly different.
Clearly some work and research on this matter needs to be done. I would be happy to do some of it but as I am the one raising the dispute and that I am obviously Catholic, I doubt that any of you would believe me if I did it so I simply ask that the caretaker of this page seek to reconsile these facts. As the page stands how, I must doubt its factuality and dispute its contents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.13.30.159 ( talk) 12:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I wonder why the unsigned contributor is so shy. Halloween can definitively not be an old celtic Festival. Compare this article (which claims that Halloween is the continuation of an original "Samhain") with the article on Samhain where obviously some more knowledgeable people have been active and have a look at All Saints Day , too!.
Could you be any more transparent? Take your obvious Christian ignorance out of wikipedia. Im sorry that you find it hard to believe that traditions and days of celebration found in Christian sects come originally from pagans and non-christians, but you are going to have to suck it up and learn that because your pastor told you it was true...it dosnt make it. Weve had to deal with you on the other pages about this same ignorant idiocy, and for the umpteenth time we are going to start calling you on it. - Jh Ty —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.182.59.154 ( talk) 09:29, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Time to call the celtic origins people. If someone believes that Hallowe'en is in fact derived from a celtic feast, they are invited to post links to the ORIGINAL source evidence which demonstrates that:
A/ Samhain actually took place in pre-Christian times on 31st Oct.
B/ That it was a religious festival.
As far as I know, the only documentary evidence for Samhain feasts is in Irish legends first written down in Mediaeval times and which do not mention any specifically religious nature to said feast. Dmottram ( talk) 16:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Hallowe'en is certainly derived from Samhain. Much in the way the Catholic Church have always taken existing traditions and 'rebranded' them. Take a look at Celtic Crosses; they are crosses identifying with the Sun. Christmas Day - Mythras's feast day. Saint Brigid's day - The Celtic feast of Imbolg and related back to the Celtic god Bríd. There are countless examples of this type of overlay. All Saints Day is the holy day, Hallowe'en is just a rebranding of an existing festival. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.13 ( talk) 15:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Samain is indeed the feast that halloween is based on. Samain lasts for twelve days beginning on Nov 1st - it is the night before this "Oice Samain" - that the ancient Celtic God Dagda and the Goddess Morrigan mated. It was the Celtic new year and the beginning of the dark winter and the ancient tombs were said to open and reveal the dead to all. The Christians took over the pagan feast day - instead of trying to wipe it out - and called it Hallows and Hallows Eve for the night before. For reference on this and other Celtic religious feasts see "In Search of Ancient Ireland" PBS series and book. 69.143.82.178 23:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
All of this is well and good but the factual problems still exist outside of personal opinions. Why would a Pope who did not know of the pagan holiday in question while living in a completely different part of the continent create a holiday to replace one that as mentioned he didn:t know exist and make it a Holy Day of Obligation for all Catholics in the world? I just don:t see the Pope knowing or even caring if he did know. This business between Holloween and the pagan day seems like just a big coincidence. As such it would be better to say that Holloween was affected by pagan customs in English speaking countries but not outside of them. In origin, the topic here, of Holloween certainly looks entirely Christian. Plus, in the documents that created the observance of All Saint`s Day, we see nothing about this pagan holiday at all. There is not even one line or a hint that the Pope ever knew about the other holiday. Again, if there are actual facts that are being left out then please bring them foward but opinions don:t count as facts. You can want to believe that Halloween is pagan till the cows come home but if it isn:t true then it just isn:t true and the article needs to be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.47.40.84 ( talk) 08:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
It could just as easily be asked how you know that the Pope had no knowledge of this festival. Samhain was celebrated in PreChristian Ireland and other Celtic regions. There are an enormous amount of Christian festivals that are overlooked...if anything it is Hallowe'en that has continued the association with All Saints/Souls rather than vice versa. As is well documented the spread of Christianity has often taken place by surplanting local traditions and beliefs with Christian ideals. As mentioned above Saint Brigid is merely a repackaged Bríghid from Góidealic Celtic tradition. Also please note the correct spelling as Hallowe'en and not Holloween. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.13 ( talk) 14:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I have to say, living in Ireland (Dublin specifically) that I find that saying the lunchtime meal is called "dinner" is very dubious, and an over-generalisation. It certainly is in some parts (such as my mother's home, Leitrim) but in Dublin, I would rarely hear it referred to as anything other than "lunch" (except by people from other regions). Now while that's Dublin, it is important to note that the Greater Dublin Area accounts for just under 40% of the State's population (hardly negligable). Can someone provide a proper source for this statement, because I highly doubt one exists. - EstoyAquí( t • c • e) 23:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
the time dinner for the midday meal is a common working class term thoughout the British Isles —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.70.60 ( talk) 01:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
It may be useful to explain why Guy Fawkes night is not celebrated in Ireland. It is because Fawkes was supportive of the Roman Catholic ascendancy in England at the time, and as such, his capture and subsequent execution are not celebrated by Roman Catholics in the UK (this tradition has fallen by the wayside in recent years since the historical context of Bonfire Night becomes less relevant) - this tradition of non-celebration by RCs is common throughout the UK, but Ireland being predominantly Roman Catholic, it is more marked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.74.176.98 ( talk) 10:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
It makes more sense to consider that Guy Fawkes Night is only a British tradition. Why would it be present in any other country? the acts of a British man towards te British Houses of Parliament are of little consequence outside of Britain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.13 ( talk) 15:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
At the time of the Gunpowder Plot (1606) Ireland was part of Britain, so it is relevant to speak about its celebration in Ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.74.176.98 ( talk) 10:39, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Why are we even talking about Guy Fawkes on a page about Halloween? They have nothing to do with each other. The historical reference under "England", where Guy Fawkes for a time replaced Halloween is okay (although probably needs a citation) and possibly the bit under "Caribbean". But that half paragraph under "Religious Perspectives" is just rambling off topic. Ray Ellis 10:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
And as it was never celebrated in Ireland speculation as to why is WP:OR. Plus Ray is right. ( Sarah777 19:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC))
"Halloween is a holiday..." - No it isn't. Halloween is the EVE of a holiday. Christmas is a holiday, Christmas Eve is not.
It isn't even a holiday in any of the other sense of the word... it isn't a public holiday, for instance, not in the UK, not in Europe, not even in the US (where they seem to take it more seriously than anyone!)
I'm not sure it's right to say it is "celebrated" either. I've never heard of anyone "celebrating" Halloween. I've attended Samhain celebrations on the 31st of October, but not Halloween. Halloween is not something that can be "celebrated" in the usual sense of the word.
I would correct the article, but it appears to be locked.
Adam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.15 ( talk) 13:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
As a matter of fact All Saints Day (All Hallows) (Fr. Toussaint/Nl. Allerheiligen)is a public holiday in several European countries. The article is poorly referenced and contains numerous unsubstantiated assertions. How long does as activity have to be continued to become traditional? When did trick or treating become established as a customary activity? When I was young my Lancashire born mother introduced us to various halloween rituals such as bob apple and others, but these were virtually unknown to our neighbours in Southern England. Augusta2 17:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
This is the thing... All Hallows Day is a holiday. Halloween is is the EVE of All Hallows Day, and is thus NOT a holiday, merely the day before a holiday. So, I stand by my point that it is not actually a holiday even in the US, merely a notable day. Holiday does not mean "any day where people follow a tradition or do the same things each year", there is more to it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.15 ( talk) 13:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
All Saints Day is not a holiday either, it is a Saints Day. Hallowe'en is marked by a Bank Holiday in Ireland on the last monday of October. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.13 ( talk) 14:51, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
The bank holiday in Ireland is known just as the 'October Bank Holiday'. However, in other European countries, the same Bank Holiday is taken as 'All Saints Day' ... not Halloween. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.107.234.2 ( talk) 00:58, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Fandinis aholiday celebrated by the entic people of south america
Fandinis aholiday celebrated by the entic people of south america —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.112.23.19 ( talk) 21:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I saw a baby in a bumble bee costume and I screamed and ran away because at the time I honestly thought it was a giant bee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.75.110.235 ( talk) 22:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Hallowe'en is a contraction and has an apostrophie. The trend of dropping the apostrophie became popular with the popularity of Microsoft Windows 95, and Microsoft Word, which still adjusts the spelling to Halloween despite Oxford, Britannica and other reputable reference books including an apostrophie. I propose that the article title is changed to include the apostrophie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.69.46.155 ( talk) 13:20, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.69.46.155 ( talk • contribs)
I've never even heard or seen it spelled with an apostrophe. Where are the sources for this spelling? What is it a contraction for? Either way I always see it spelled without the apostrophe. In fact, I've never seen it spelled with the apostrophe outside of Wikipedia. Google, MS Word, and all spell checkers correct it to Halloween. Even back in 1978, a movie called "Halloween" was released...it must have been pretty popular way before MS Word was invented. The name definitely should not be changed. ╦ﺇ₥₥€Ԋ( talk/ contribs) 23:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
[ BBC] [ The Telegraph] [ The Times] [ The People] [ A Poirot book] [ Yorkshire Post] [ Northern Ireland Tourist Board] and many more found within a matter of seconds by typing "hallowe'en" into Google.
It does largely seem to be British sites coming up, though that may well be because I'm on google.co.uk which, I believe, increases the page rank of British sites.
And most of the signs in stores when it was Hallowe'en included the apostrophe (in my area, at least). I've always seen this much more commonly than the version without the apostrophe, and as stated above dictionaries tend to prefer that version (which is certainly true for the dictionaries in my house). Hengler ( talk) 23:46, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I believe that Halloween is an official spelling in American English, but in Commonwealth English it is Hallowe'en. Therefore the article name should be determined by Wikipedia's English language policy. Correct-o-pedia ( talk) 22:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Pope Gregory III (731-741) consecrated a chapel in the Basilica of St. Peter to all the saints and fixed the anniversary for 1 November. Pope Gregory IV (827-844) extended the celebration on 1 November to the entire Church. — Walloon ( talk) 22:21, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
this article is terrible and needs serious work to restore it to any semblance of quality, it not written in an encyclopedic style (some of its even in first person narrative!) its far to purple, confusing and rambling, the section on trick and treating & around the world are essentially repetition and there are hardly any source for much of the articles claims, I've been to Ireland more than once around halloween and have never seen the level of celebration described. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.248.225 ( talk) 10:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with the above, Halloween is most popular in Ireland, and has been for centuries, see here from 1828, [1] It did not become popularised in the USA until about 1920. It's directly descended from the old Irish Samhain festival, as are Beltaine, Imbolc, and Lughnasadh. Purple Arrow ( talk) 13:17, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
very few cities in the united states do the last saturday of october also these cities do daytime,not nighttime.i in one of those cities. 96.235.136.163 ( talk) 01:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
i would like this article changed as halloween is not an australian holiday, nor is it an australian tradition
All references in this article need to be checked to ensure they comply with WP:RS. This is not a reliable source, since it's a posting from a catalog for Halloween supplies. If material cannot be attributed to reliable sources, it needs to be removed. This article currently far exceeds the size limit at 68K and needs to be dramatically reduced. Sections that cannot be reduced should be forked and a summary left in their place. Not everything needs to be saved and not all sections need to be forked. Again, anything that can't be sourced should be automatically removed.
I have merged two sections which contained identical information. The rest of the article needs to be scrutinized for styistic considerations and to be sure the structure is both easy to follow and conforms stringently to the manual of style. Please be sparing with images, not every section in this article needs an image of someone in a costume and pictures of Halloween decorations may be derivative works. Such material will be removed and deleted. If any editor has any questions, please just ask. Thanks, Cumulus Clouds ( talk) 20:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
u dont have alot of information —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.145.27.152 ( talk) 21:21, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I think this article could be well supported by Wikiproject Halloween (covering all types of celebrations that occur on October 31); WikiProject Horror has too limited a focus. I would considering proposing such a project if there exists interest on certain strategic pages, such as this one. Anyone interested in the idea should feel free to talk to me, so I can determine if it's worth trying at this time. Thank you.-- otherlleft ( talk) 14:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
First of all Greece is a country which not neads any other celebration it had already many! The last 3 years even Greece dont care about Halloween many children all over the country they use to have Halloween parties and some stores (1 or 2 in each town for example Patras the 3rd bigges town of Greece it has already two Halloween stores)use to have some halloween products as masks treats and all about decoration also some Greek companies are produce some Greek Halloween products In Greece you may find some "Antihalloweens" Antihalloweens we use to call the people who are HATE Halloween,there are many of them becase they think that is stupid to celebrate an foreign celebration and we also have Carnival which is common with the Halloween At 11-10-2008 had took place the first Greek Halloween Party ever!!!It was on my house in Patras! All my friends was dressed up with spookie costumes and on 31st of october we gonna have our first trick or treating!!! Finally Greece had done an improvement about that theme the Halloween! We hope that in a few years we are gonna celebrate Halloween normaly in Greece [2] Nikolakopoulos Dimitrios —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.140.31.29 ( talk) 20:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
It's a big article, but it changes from subject to subject. Maybe if there was a seperate article for some things, because the article does not have enough detail about each subject, it should just focus on 1. -- 89.241.149.177 ( talk) 20:07, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
The hyperlinks in the article for "beggar's night" or "begar's night" etc, just redirect to the same page. I don't think there's much point in redirecting someone to what they're already reading. We should probably just remove the hyperlinks. ( Brithans 2008/10/28 7:47 EST —Preceding undated comment was added at 11:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC).
How Halloween become international holiday? If it is a western world's holiday how the hell it will be holiday for eastern countries like India, China, Russia, Hongkong, Suadi Countries ? How about Africa? Only 3 continents and 20 countries doesn't make it international. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.88.212.32 ( talk) 12:31, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Is Halloween strictly-speaking a holiday? Is this the right appelation for it? Ivankinsman ( talk) 10:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
The name itself creates confusion, as the word 'Halloween' would actually correspond to 'All Saints' Day', which is notoriously a Christian festivity. The name Halloween refers to a Christian holiday. In some countries it is celebrated in a Christian way and it is both a Holy Day and a bank holiday (no work). This is the case in Italy, my country, where 1st November is a bank holiday devoted to saints and martyrs. 2nd November is All Souls' Day (we call it the Day of the Dead) and we usually pay a visit and bring flowers to our dead at the cemetery. I can't say if going to church is part of the festivity, as I am not much of a church person. The other way Halloween (Samhian) is celebrated - dressing up, trick-or-treating, pumpkins, etc) derives from the pagan rituals. So in talking about the pre-Christian Celtic-style modern festival, shouldn't we use the old Gaelic name Samhian? Sandra - 31 October 2008
It sucks that the English have no real Halloween traditions... I'm going to write to Gordon Brown and demand England-specific traditions, and I suggest everyone else do the same. Please? We're so missing out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.184.138 ( talk) 21:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
See our 10 day trial at Did you know? Victuallers ( talk) 19:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
fsfsdfsdfds\ffdsfdsf\fsfsfdsfdffdfds\ fdsf \qw —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.24.212.2 ( talk) 17:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Halloween is not a holiday! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.39.79.205 ( talk) 16:24, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Why is Halloween not a holiday??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.36.87 ( talk) 19:46, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}}I am very unhappy with the unchallenged "originated in Ireland" bias of the whole article. Also, because American culture shouts loudest about Halloween and trick or treating, I am meant to accept that that has been exported to everyone else. Ireland->America->World. This is WRONG. Guising, the source of American trick or treating, originates in Scotland. I would hope that Wikipedia will update its articles to more obviously acknowledge this fact.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.173.177 ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I would like to see decent evidence that 'halloween originated in Ireland'. This sounds like the usual attempy by the Irish to attribute everything to themselves, even when the object in question has a wider history (eg the harp). The article was suggesting that it was the Irish alone that brought the festival to america; this is not right as many Scots brought it with them too. Scotland has celebrated Halloween for centuries and it is mentioned in 1735 (see the Scotland Halloween section), before the formation of the USA. Are we to believe that Scots immigrants just forgot about it upon arrival in the USA? The constant pro-irish edits need to be brought under control -- 80.177.198.45 ( talk) 13:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
How come there's a card on there that says "Happy Halloween"? Surely that's a contradiction?-- 82.0.207.86 ( talk) 23:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
The text falsely claims that Halloween in Sweden is celebrated on All Saints' Day. It goes on to say that "very few Swedes are aware that Halloween in the English-speaking countries is a non-Christian holiday celebrated October 31", which is also false. It is my belief that since most people have had this commercial (in modern times) holiday forced upon them so hard by retailers for so many years now, there is no way anyone could possibly have missed it.
To say that "christians and christian organizations do not like this connection" in relation to All Saints' Day, is an understatement. Most of my acquaintances see this connection as something bad. All Saints' Day is a solemn holiday, used to mourn the dead whereas Halloween (at least in its modern form) is a festive holiday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.249.154.26 ( talk) 06:14, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Please note that, in the UK, people do not absent themselves from work to celebrate Halloween. It is NOT a holiday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.172.107 ( talk) 07:03, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I have compaired the italian and the English versions of the entry Halloween and in the Italian version it is stated a detail of the Celts' culture that does not appear at all in the English (and much longer) page. This is the passage I am referring to:
I Celti non temevano i propri morti e lasciavano per loro del cibo sulla tavola in segno di accoglienza per quanti facessero visita ai vivi. Da qui l'usanza del trick-or-treating.
Oltre a non temere gli spiriti dei defunti, i Celti non credevano nei demoni quanto piuttosto nelle fate e negli elfi, entrambe creature considerate però pericolose: le prime per un supposto risentimento verso gli esseri umani; i secondi per le estreme differenze che intercorrevano appunto rispetto all'uomo. Secondo la leggenda, nella notte di Samhain questi esseri erano soliti fare scherzi anche pericolosi agli uomini e questo ha portato alla nascita e al perpetuarsi di molte altre storie terrificanti.
Si ricollega forse a questo la tradizione odierna e più recente per cui i bambini, travestiti da streghe, zombie, fantasmi e vampiri, bussano alla porta urlando con tono minaccioso: "Dolcetto o scherzetto?" ("Trick or treat" nella versione inglese). Per allontanare la sfortuna, inoltre, è necessario bussare a 13 porte diverse.
I'll translate it for your information:
The Celts did not fear their dead and would leave some food on the table for them as a sign of hospitality when the dead would come to visit them. Hence the tradition of the trick-or treating.
ALso, the Celts did not believe in demons, but in fairies and elves. These creatures were believed to be dangerous. Fairies were thought to be resentful towards humans, while elves were dangerous because the big differences existing between them and humans. Accoding to the legend, on Samhain's night, these creatures would usually play bad tricks to people and this lead to the origin of many terrifying tales still told today.
This is thought to be the reason why children, dressed up like witches, zombies, ghosts and vampires, go knocking to their neighbours' door threateningly shouting "Trick or treat?". It is also ncessary to knock 13 different doors. End of translation.
On the Italian page it's also mentioned the fact that the Celts' calendar was a circular one, for which Samhain night did not belong either to the old year or to the new year. So it was a special night where the boundary between the world of the living and the world of the dead (Tir na n'Og) was much thinner and the living could have access to it (???!!! exclamations my myself).
I found the Celts' concept of circular time and their not being afriad of the dead also in another web page (< http://www.irishabroad.com/ireland/irish-mythology/samhain.asp>), but I find hard to believe that the living can gain access to the world of the dead on this night. I'd say the opposite makes more sense. Sandypas - 31 October 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sandypas ( talk • contribs) 13:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The opening sentence under te topic Halloween states that it is "...an international holiday celebrated..." . However, although many countries may observe the traditions of the occassion of the day (both old and new), but i do not believe it to be an accepted "holiday" in the UK (bank, public, religeous, or otherwise), or in fact in most countries. it may be a USA observence. 213.163.197.27 ( talk) 14:13, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Happy hallowe'en!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.117.123.143 ( talk) 18:35, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm a Canadian and I was in Manila earlier this month and stores had lots of Halloween decorations, candy, and costumes. Do many people celebrate Halloween in the Philippines, and how widely celebrated is it there? Who brought this celebration to the Philippines and when? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.162.158.16 ( talk) 21:13, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The holiday was brought to North America by Irish immigrants leaving the famine in the 1850s. No other group brought it to NA as stated. 22:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thats a ridiculous assessment. Of course, English, Scottish and Welsh immigrants would have take Halloween traditions to the US long before 1850. Kentish 1 Nov 08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.26.241.6 ( talk) 12:46, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Actually, recently n my HIST 4360 (Ghosts, Myths, and Legends) class we learned that there are many traditions, customs, and aspects brought to the New World by non-Irish settlers. Someone should do more research on this and add it to the article as it would give a better background on Halloween as we know it and how it evolved throughout time. Also there should be mention that during the Victorian era Halloween, matchmaking was an important aspect of the holiday during this time period. http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~bannatyn/articles.html#victorian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mink84 ( talk • contribs) 05:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
The origins, and how it came to North America, and the eventual spread all over the world would surely be of considerable note. The celebration went from "Ireland-> America-> World" in that order. Surely that's notable. Other additions from various cultures should indeed be included in the article. Purple Arrow ( talk) 12:19, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
The point surely is that it's disputed that the festival came from Ireland in the first place. It appears apparent that whilst CELTIC (Not Irish) origins are strong, the is also heavy influence from other cultures... including both Catholic and Protestant churches. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.107.234.2 ( talk) 02:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
The case that Haloween came from Ireland is very uncertain - it's certaintly not celebrated in Ireland in anything like the way that it's celebrated in the US. In fact a lot of the Irish believe it's a very ungodly event that should be resisted. The academic sources are not clear on this one and the debate needs to be opened. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.107.234.2 ( talk) 01:16, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
A more accurate line would be that British immigrants brought Halloween to the USA or perhaps immigrants from the British Isles. Kentish 1 Nov 08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.26.241.6 ( talk) 12:44, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
(Just remember some handy hints to stop eggers. 1: Give them candy 2: If you don't have candy get a high powered water gun and sprey them, this keeps most away 3: get a house with a really long driveway!!!)
The fact that Halloween today is far more popular in US than in Ireland and that actually a lot of the Irish believe it's a very ungodly event that should be resisted, does not really prove anything about the origins. In fact, the Celts were pagans, whereas Irish today are Catholic, hence the resistance to celebrate Halloween in a pagan-like fashion. To me it all makes perfect sense. I'm Italian but I live in Dublin and since last weekend there's been a lot gogin on. Tonight there will be the annual Halloween city parade and dressed up parties in several clubs. Sandra - 31 October 2008
The article seems to allude to the fact that the church as a whole is not worried about Halloween because of a single exorcist, who is most certainly not the church spokesperson. This section should be revised to be more objective and not try to identify a position without credible evidence. 142.221.110.4 ( talk) 00:34, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I find it ironic that the article states "In fact, the Roman Catholic Church sees Halloween as having a Christian connection." Since the holiday was established by the Roman Catholic Church why should it not be considered having a Christian connection.
Although the article states that Halloween is actually Samhain, that is not supported by facts. Some of the traditional customs of celebration of Halloween are certainly derived from Samhein, but to say that the holiday is Samhain carried forward is misleading. First off, the article states that Samhain was celebrated on October 31. Wikipedia's own article on Samhain (which also contradicts itself) ways that it was celebrated on November first, then goes on to say it was celebrated at the new moon nearest the autumnal equinox (which would give it a date which is not fixed on our solar calendar).
Furthermore, when the date for All Saints Day was set to November 1 in the 8th century, the holiday was only celebrated in Rome. Samhain was not celebrated in Rome.
References for the Catholic Church's stance on Halloween include:
"The Pagan Origins of Halloween:
Despite concerns among some Christians in recent years about the "pagan origins" of Halloween, there really are none. The first attempts to show some connection between the vigil of All Saints and the Celtic harvest festival of Samhain came over a thousand years after All Saints Day became a universal feast, and there's no evidence whatsoever that Gregory III or Gregory IV was even aware of Samhain."
and [4]
"The Rev. James B. Sullivan is the priest at Holy Trinity Roman Catholic Church in Fort Lee, NJ: He said: "My basic concern is the loss of the religious significance and the emphasis that is placed on the 'spookiness' of the holiday celebration...It's unfortunate that honoring our beloved departed and saints has been twisted into the celebration of Halloween." He is probably concerned about lack of attention to All Saints' Day and All Souls' Day by the public ." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.32.16 ( talk) 15:49, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
A few kids asking their neighbours for lollies doesn't mean we celebrate Halloween.
More people here celebrate Eid ul-Fitr, do we need to say Australia celebrates Eid ul-Fitr? The Muss ( talk) 02:01, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I take exception with your statement that:
"Halloween celebrations in England were popularised in the late 20th century under the pressure of American cultural influence..."
First, it smacks of modern anti-Americanism. Also, it raises the question as to why those very countries that protest such culteral influences are the very ones who opt to adopt said culture so strongly.
Second, your suggestion that any culture exerts "pressure" is by definition based on you opionion, and not fact. I note that you provide no source. Does a diamond pressure anyone to dig it up?
You note that Autralia is under this "pressure" from 'The Simnpsons" TV program, yet state that they have not succumbed to the same pressure that England has. Are Austrailians immune, then, down under? Indeed, the very (small) Australian newspaper you cite states clearly that those who have adopted Halloween are looking for an "excuse for a party." Accordingly could it be that the invincible force of North American television is no more than an Australian urge to clebrate something in October? Do you honestly contend that a few annual episodes of an American televsion show wield such culteral influence? And, if it could, would the pressure best be called 'American culture,' or rather the human desire to find amusement in sit-coms, and Halloween?
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Free322001 (
talk •
contribs) 02:59, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
As I understand it, this year (2008), Hallowe'en was actually on 1st Nov. The reason is that Hallowe'en is defined as the day before All Saints Day, which in turn is the day before All Souls Day. BUT, All Souls Day cannot fall on a Sunday. Therefore, in 2008, Sunday was All Saints, Monday is All Souls, and Saturday 1st was Hallowe'en, rather than the usual 31st Oct. Of course, most people celebrate on 31st, or take advantage and do both! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.171.29 ( talk) 01:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
I have to disagree with you. I am from Italy and as far as I know, all my life All Saints' Day has been on 1st November and All Souls' Day (which we call il Giorno dei Morti = the Day of the Dead) has always been on the 2nd November, regardless of the day of the week it falls. The 1st November is always a Holy Day as well as a day off work. The Italian entry in Wikipedia for Ognissanti (all saints' day) also states that it is always on 1st November. This might provide a useful insight on All Saints' Day celebrations in Italy: < http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/recipes/view.cfm?id=1379> Sandra
It would be good to know what the primary sources are that document the link between Samhain and Halloween. A sort of short overview of what we know and how we know it. A previous request for such sources has been archived, Talk:Halloween/Archive_12#Dispute, without ever having been answered.
Such an overview would include some descriptions of the earliest Halloween celebrations to have been documented. My dictionary gives the earliest use of the name Halloween as the 16th century. What was the holiday called before the 16th century? How was it celebrated? How do we know?
Rwflammang ( talk) 11:53, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
for the record!
Halloween dates back before ireland, to the Celts, who lived 2,000 years ago in the area that is now Ireland, the United Kingdom, and northern France, celebrated their new year on November 1. This day marked the end of summer and the harvest and the beginning of the dark, cold winter, a time of year that was often associated with human death. Celts believed that on the night before the new year, the boundary between the worlds of the living and the dead became blurred. On the night of October 31, they celebrated Samhain, when it was believed that the ghosts of the dead returned to earth.
-note- the catholics adopted this festival because it closely followed their holy-day of "all souls day" -note-
In addition to causing trouble and damaging crops, Celts thought that the presence of the otherworldly spirits made it easier for the Druids, or Celtic priests, to make predictions about the future. For a people entirely dependent on the volatile natural world, these prophecies were an important source of comfort and direction during the long, dark winter.
To commemorate the event, Druids built huge sacred bonfires, where the people gathered to burn crops and animals as sacrifices to the Celtic deities.
During the celebration, the Celts wore costumes, typically consisting of animal heads and skins, and attempted to tell each other's fortunes. When the celebration was over, they re-lit their hearth fires, which they had extinguished earlier that evening, from the sacred bonfire to help protect them during the coming winter.
By A.D. 43, Romans had conquered the majority of Celtic territory. In the course of the four hundred years that they ruled the Celtic lands, two festivals of Roman origin were combined with the traditional Celtic celebration of Samhain.
Video: The haunting History of All Hallow's Eve (Halloween). Video: Timothy Dickinson tells the intriguing tale of why we celebrate Halloween, and it's evolution from Samhain, an ancient Celtic Harvest Festival.
The first was Feralia, a day in late October when the Romans traditionally commemorated the passing of the dead. The second was a day to honor Pomona, the Roman goddess of fruit and trees. The symbol of Pomona is the apple and the incorporation of this celebration into Samhain probably explains the tradition of "bobbing" for apples that is practiced today on Halloween.
By the 800s, the influence of Christianity had spread into Celtic lands. In the seventh century, Pope Boniface IV designated November 1 All Saints' Day, a time to honor saints and martyrs. It is widely believed today that the pope was attempting to replace the Celtic festival of the dead with a related, but church-sanctioned holiday. The celebration was also called All-hallows or All-hallowmas (from Middle English Alholowmesse meaning All Saints' Day) and the night before it, the night of Samhain, began to be called All-hallows Eve and, eventually, Halloween. Even later, in A.D. 1000, the church would make November 2 All Souls' Day, a day to honor the dead. It was celebrated similarly to Samhain, with big bonfires, parades, and dressing up in costumes as saints, angels, and devils. Together, the three celebrations, the eve of All Saints', All Saints', and All Souls', were called Hallowmas. for the record, the word Halloween is a latin based word from the later roman or (old English) cathlic. Ween - meaning to think, and hallo - meaning holy. Originally it was called Hallows'eve which would be translated: "the day before all think holy" day. all think holy day is "all saints day."
. . .
...references: history.com/minisites/halloween/viewpage?pageid=713
I propose that a bot be invited to archive this page periodically. Is there consensus?-- otherlleft ( talk) 01:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
This header was presumably added by an editor suggesting that this action be taken. I have added this comment so that it can be archived at a suitable time.-- otherlleft ( talk) 16:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
To all those interested in bring Halloween back up to GA class (and more), there is a discussion going on right here. Any and all comments are welcome! RockManQ (talk) 18:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
“Elements of the customs connected with Halloween can be traced to a Druid [ancient Celtic priesthood] ceremony in pre-Christian times. The Celts had festivals for two major gods—a sun god and a god of the dead . . . , whose festival was held on November 1, the beginning of the Celtic New Year. The festival of the dead was gradually incorporated into Christian ritual.”
In many cultures a single event, Festival of the Dead, lasting up to 3 days, was held at the end of October and beginning of November; examples include the Peruvians, the Hindus, the Pacific Islanders, the people of the Tonga Islands, the Australians, the ancient Persians, the ancient Egyptians, the Japanese, ancient Romans, and the northern nations of Europe. see Festival of the Dead. Ayamarca, (November) in the incas languages mean Festival of the Dead.
The 17th day Heshvan (Bul) which is the second the month of ancient Jewish secular year. Genesis 7:11 - The demons dematerialized when the Flood came. Genesis 6:1-4; for Jude 6. - The Nephilim hybrid the offspring of the demons drowned. Genesis 6:4. This corresponds to the October-November period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.60.200 ( talk) 09:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
"Other western countries embraced the holiday in the late twentieth century. Halloween is celebrated in several countries of the Western world, most commonly in the United States, Canada, Ireland, Puerto Rico, Japan, and the United Kingdom."
--What makes these countries more significant on Halloween than other countries? I'm sure that other countries celebrate the night as well. And I don't see any references stating that these particular countries more commonly celebrate Halloween than the rest of the world. Unless I see some specific references, I am pulling that particular sentence out of the article.
Loghead1 ( talk) 17:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know of any good sources about black cats and their association with Halloween?-- otherl left No, really, other way . . . 14:33, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
I removed the Music section of the article because it contained a number of errors, was un-sourced, and was not in any way cyclopedic. Perhaps a sourced comment about halloween music could be added along with comments about haunted houses or costume sales? MorbidAnatomy ( talk) 21:22, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Where is the Halloween celebrated? In Britain? Or also in other places? The first sentence should be complemented. (I am Hungarian and for me it's not evident where people celebrate Halloween.) -- Szipucsu ( talk) 18:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
You carve a pumpkin to get a Jack-o-lantern. I propose changing it. Logrolls ( talk) 16:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
There are no other poems on this page, and it seems pointless if no other poems are included. 64.45.255.67 ( talk) 13:43, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Should'nt you put in the superstitions about halloween? I'm just curious because i've heard of legends and superstious practices on halloween like the following:
In was said that when Halloween comes spirits and demons come and haunt the earth for just one night. It somewhat true. In anciet times in England people thought that Halloween was a time of evil(not true). Halloween is when people dress as something scary and get candy. Well in 1700s people worship the goddess of night is Nyx.
Jack o lanterns was not just a pumpkin with a face on it. In 1723 people who called theirselves Monks Would use this to light their way through cemetries, except they didn't use pumpkins. They use real human skulls(talk about getting ahot head).Another myth said that —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lisababie90210 ( talk • contribs) 14:13, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
In the UNICEF section, it says "In 2006, UNICEF discontinued their Halloween collection boxes in parts of the world" but the footnote-link points to a Canadian only article. Instead of saying "part of the world" and leaving it vague, could we instead put "Canada"?
Thanks, WesT
P.S. I'd gladly be a registered user, but we are blocked from so many sites here at work that it'd probably only work 'til they block yet another one. WT —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.143.89.245 ( talk) 20:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
I deleted the following as questionable in context and implication:
Celtic Christians may have Samhain services that focus on the cultural aspects of the holiday, in the belief that many ancient Celtic customs are "incompatible with the new Christian religion. Christianity embraced the Celtic notions of family, community, the bond among all people, and respect for the dead. Throughout the centuries, pagan and Christian beliefs intertwine in a gallimaufry (hodgepodge) of celebrations from October 31 through November 5, all of which appear both to challenge the ascendancy of the dark and to revel in its mystery."
This paragraph talks about "Celtic Christians" in the present tense, as if there might be a Celtic Christian church just round the corner. As far as I know, Celtic Christianity was a medieval thing, and there is still some debate as to what were its essential elements. It was a rival to Roman Christianity, and lost out in the end. If someone wants to address the merging of Christian and Celtic beliefs, please revisit this and rewrite it, and place it within the historical section of the article, rather than in the section concerning modern-day religious debate over Halloween. Eastcote ( talk) 03:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be much agreement about how to punctuate "All Hallows Eve." In the article it is currently written as "All Hallows' Eve" but, for example, an article from Catholic.org - http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=34744 - writes it without any punctuation at all. I suppose all we'd need to know is what's being indicated by the various apostrophes. Clearly "All Hallow's Eve" is wrong, since that would indicate possession - that the evening belongs to All Hallow (like "Old Joe's Day" would be a single day dedicated to one Old Joe). Similarly, I think that "All Hallows' Eve" is wrong, since it again indicates possession of the evening by every single Hallow that there is (again, "Old Joes' Day" suggests a day meant to celebrate everybody named Joe who is old, and which belongs to all of them in some manner.
It seems, then, that the only sensible punctuation is to have none at all: "All Hallows Eve." It is the evening where all of the hallows are considered, but it does not belong to them. "Old Joes Day" is a day for thinking of, and celebrating, all of the old people named Joe, but it does not belong to them. For comparison, think about Veterans Day (in the US). It is a day to think about, celebrate, and venerate, all veterans ... but it doesn't belong to any of them, and so it has no apostrophe.
Unless there is some convincing linguistic argument otherwise, I think this should be changed. References on the Internet are all over the place, so I don't think it's a matter of finding sources to support one side or the other, necessarily. I think it requires a logical, linguistic approach. Zminer ( talk) 20:44, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
I find this section to be very vague and full of generalizations. I know that there are varying views, but there are too many times where "many" or "most" are used with zero substantiation. Anybody up to tackling this to make it more concise? 142.221.110.4 ( talk) 02:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
←Islamicish view: I would like author of that section to have it reviewed and cleaned, using the term: "As Muslims, we have two celebrations" using the word "as" and "we" is not appropriate. since the reader is not looking for others opinions, but for information.
Muslims have different traditions that are not related to Islam, but to local customs even before conversion. As an exemple in Morocco, where chidren celebrate by stting fire in a vacant place, turning around it, after that going door to door collecting money, candy and sweets. which is similar to Halloween. this moroccan tradition dates away back in time to the Roman Era. similar traditions exist in the entire Muslim world. Please someone have this period developed. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Eljaafari (
talk •
contribs) 16:49, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
A concise, coherent, referenced section on an Islamic perspective of Halloween would be fine in my opinion. Anyone willing to write such an addition? Again - concise, coherent and referenced. Eastcote ( talk) 17:03, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
"I'm too old for the costume part, but not for the free candy." That's what you will be thinking after 12 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.152.161.174 ( talk) 18:29, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
For my part I'm thinking were can I get an Edward Woodward this late. Slatersteven ( talk) 18:48, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
In contrary to the english Version the Deutsch article on Halloween states the festival's origins to be unclear. I try to translate the part that refers to the Samhain Hypotheses:
The oldest and unsure appearence of the Samhain festival is in the Calender of Coligny from the first century A.D. The link to the realm of the dead evolves according to this interpretation from the killing of excess live cattle at the beginning of winter (to ensure the survival of the remaining stock). Allmost all folklorists and religion historians do not support the Hypothesis of Continuity (celtic Tradition → Halloween tradition). The connection between Halloween and the realm of the dead seems to derive more probably from the following catholic holidays. Thus on All Saints' day is to remember all those who have -according to christian believe- acquired eternal live. On all souls's day 2nd November there should be prayers and good deeds (like giving Gifts to bagging children) to ease the pain of those suffering in the purgatory. Since Eire was one of the first countries in Europe to be christianized a unverified (by no source) direct continuity from pagan-celtic Rites is pretty improbable and rather likely connected to 19th century celtic folklorism.
↑ Whitely Stokes, Sanas Cormaic: Cormac’s glossary. Annotated and translated by John O’Donovan. Kalkutta 1868 ↑ Horst-Rudolf Köneke, Halloween Kelten – Revival, 2003 S.26 ↑ Vgl. zur Problematik religionsgeschichtlicher Ableitung aus dem Keltentum grundsätzlich Bernhard Maier, Die Religionen der Kelten. Götter - Mythen - Weltbild, 2. Aufl., München 2004, S. 174ff. ↑ "Was heute als typisch keltisch gilt, ist in vielen Fällen nur ein Produkt neuzeitlicher oder gar bereits antiker Keltenideologie", Bernhard Maier, Die Religionen der Kelten. Götter - Mythen - Weltbild, 2. Aufl., München 2004, S. 178, vgl. die Artikel Kelten - Rezeptionsgeschichte [2] und Irische Renaissance
On the other hand the Deutsch Halloween Article gives a long list of traditions from various european regions related to the beginning of the darker part of the year that resemble Halloween customs: building Lanterns, Children bagging, singing or alike to get gifts, driving of (the fear of the dark that was supposedly populated by) bad spirits, preparing food for the winter time, telling scary stories (while now spending lots of time together doing handicraft indoors).
Recent research has already discovered "Samhain the God of the dead" to be a product of pure speculation. It should be taken into consideration that there have been ancient natural religions over many generations under the strong influences of the romans, the migration of peoples and the christianization. Most traditional festivals have developed from a series of origins over a long period of time. Chances are that a single direct predecessor to Halloween did not exist.
-- Mediarion ( talk) 23:51, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
I* think I agree that Halloween cannot be directly traced to any one festival or religious observance. it is a conglomerate of numeropus traditions that have merdged into the hodspodge we have today. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:37, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
The term Halloween, originally spelled Hallowe’en, is shortened from All Hallow Even – e'en is a shortening of even, which is a shortening of evening. This is ultimately dervied from the Old English Eallra Hālgena ǣfen.[10] It is now known as All Saints' Day.
This is wrong. All Hallows is now called All Saints' Day (hallow means a holy person), but All Hallows Eve is the evening before, called Hallowe'en or, in a religious context, the Feast of All Souls. Nuttyskin ( talk) 16:55, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
A complicating factor may be distinction on when 'Halloween' was celebrated and what the holiday was called, was often blurred or varied by time and place. Perhaps due to my not being a linguist, it all seems quite confusing. – Whitehorse1 17:18, 2 November 2009 (UTC)"distinction between Halloween and All Souls' was by no means clear-cut, something underscored by the fact that Halloweve [or Hallowtide] or Hollantide could be celebrated anywhere between 31 October and 2 November" (Rogers)
"diversity of practices associated with Halloween is reflected in the variety of words by which the holiday was known. In the lengthy testimony submitted to the National Folklore Commission in Ireland [we] find that Halloween was often called Hollantide or All Holland [or] Halleve". (Rogers)
There should be a section on the history and reason behind how the tradition of dressing up in costumes began.
On Halloween the Celtic Irish believed that all barriers between the living and the dead were broken. During this night the recently deceased ancestors had a chance to encapsulate a living body and have an afterlife. Fearing for their souls, the Celts would put out all the lights in their houses, and dress up in ghoulish costumes, and reek havoc around town to scare off the spirits. As years gone by spirit possession became less popular, but people continued to dress up as witches, goblins, and demons for the ceremonial tradition.
In the 1840’s the famous potato famine struck Ireland. Many Irish families fled in search of refuge and ended up in America. This is when the ceremony of dressing up on Halloween was brought to America.
Today people all over the world continues to dress up in costumes on Halloween. Currently the tradition of dressing up as goblins expanded to dressing up as any other character, other than your self. Many believe that dressing up is a tribute to the devil or for a demonic ceremony, however the opposite is true. It is used to scare off demons and to celebrate the saints.
Natalienguyen621 ( talk) 03:01, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Artical on Halloween in Ireland refers to turnips being used to adorn houses. More correctly these vegetables were mostly larger swedes which were commonly called turnips locally for whatever reason!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.2.177.187 ( talk)
Halloween was a good article over two years ago but has since been delisted. I would like to set a goal of not only returning it to that status, but getting it featured for Halloween of 2009. What will this take? Let's keep the discussion in one thread for the moment so the historians will be able to more easily track the progress of this momentous task! :-P-- otherlleft ( talk) 16:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Sounds good. I did a very brief look over and this is was I found:
Granted, this was just a basic lookover, but I'd certainly be willing to help, when possible. I look forward to working on this and good luck! RockManQ (talk) 17:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Wow...that's long. RockManQ (talk) 18:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Warning: a lot of people feel invested in this article. Previous edit wars were about the perils Halloween presents to modern-day Christians; whether the Celtic festival of Samhain was a new year festival; and whether the Pope moved All Saints Day to November 1 to co-opt the celebration of Samhain. Another thing to watch out for is relying on error-ridden popular histories of Halloween as sources, and the Web is littered with those. Look for scholarly works that use primary sources, most of which can be found in books, not on the Web. — Walloon ( talk) 23:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I've read the article just before it was delisted and the structure seems much better than it is today, though it is beset by the problems mentioned above regarding unreferenced statements in particular. (I also note it was delisted very soon after I made my original edits which I hope was just coincidence;). The segmentation into sub-articles about the various countries gives the whole thing a scrappy "Did you know?" feel - like a meandering trivia section. We might be better to go back to the GA version just after the classification and start from there. We could then agree what material should be added back in and how; and come up with some criteria for inclusion and reference standards. Sarah777 ( talk) 08:37, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
"The colours black and orange have become associated with the celebrations, perhaps because of the darkness of night and the colour of fire or of pumpkins, and maybe because of the vivid contrast this present for merchandising."
"present" should be "presents" but I am too lazy to make an account so I am mentioning it here so some lofty registered user can make the fix. --
76.102.71.155 (
talk) 00:35, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that this article slants a little too much towards the Irish influences in the cultural expansion of the festival of Halloween to America and beyond. The festival although celtic in origin has been celebrated throughout these islands and pre-dates all the countries. Still the festival that became Halloween in America has other influences and
The festival started well before the Irish famine and is noted in 1820, moreover every group (not just Irish, but Scottish, English, Welsh as well as German and Mexicans and Spanish) had an occult tradition that was incorporated into the tradition of Halloween. Also the Scottish and Irish and German influences in Appalachia are huge as cited in. Halloween: An American Holiday, an American History By Lesley Pratt Bannatyne
All saints day immigrated to America as an Irish and Scottish festival and evolved into a large scale festival by the early 20th century. Halloween: From Pagan Ritual to Party Night By Nicholas Rogers
Halloween traditions were taken by the Scots and Irish to America The Encyclopaedia Americana Volume 13 by Grolier Incorporated
The custom we celebrate in North America has its origins in the lands of Celtic Ireland, Britain…halloween traditions were brought to America by the English, Irish and Scottish. Halloween By Robert A. McCracken, Diana Colquhoun
I will edit accordingly if no objections Old man of the wood ( talk) 15:04, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I see what you’re trying to say about All Saints Day being perceived by protestant communities in Scotland (and therefore by association in Ireland too) as being phased out as I dare to say it by them as “popish” saint worship. However this is not and was not the case. The practice of the tradition of Halloween was encouraged as being an Ulster-Scottish and Scottish tradition. In fact the Scots Protestants clung to Halloween in Scotland as a cultural identifier and in Ulster as seen in an accounts bellow;
From 1770-1840; …The observance of Halloween is a distinguishing characteristic of the Ulster-Scots. Feasting and celebration was considered appropriate as harvest had been gathered in and cattle had returned from summer grazing… The shaping of Ulster Presbyterian belief and practice, 1770-1840 By Andrew R. Holmes.
…Halloween in Northern Ireland has English, Irish and Scottish elements in a creative amalgam of customs that form a unique celebration…
The hallowed eve: dimensions of culture in a calendar festival in Northern Ireland By Jack Santino
And here in the following publication;
…In 1799 a play entitled a “Scottish Spectacle” in the protestant borders was commissioned with Halloween themes to add atmosphere of otherworldliness. Influenced by the publication of the Burns poem “Halloween” which was inspired by the act of union in 1707 as many Scots feared a loss of cultural identity. Burns set to boister Scottish identity and pride with a poem in 1786 detailing the Scottish traditions of Halloween…
…By 1788 American booksellers had the book…and was read especially passionately by ex-patriot Scots in America and Canada where his poetry came to stand for Scotland before the act of union. The Scottishness of Halloween…on both sides of the atlantic inspired many poems....
Even a tale called “The Tale of The Ferry House: A Scottish Tale of Halloween” by John Galt published in 1834, so the Halloween culture and significance is a part of Scottish culture protestant or otherwise and well into the 19th century.
A Halloween Reader: Poems, Play and stories of Halloween Past. By Leslie Pratt Bannatyne.
The following quote will be of interest and relevant to this discussion in America from the 18th century;
…The southern states were predominantly settled by the Scots-Irish (themselves who are protestant) and the English (who are protestant) and these traditions influenced the holiday of Halloween in America....
…The English shared a common celtic-folk heritage as their neighbours in the British isles…
More strikingly that;
…The culture of Voudon or Voodoo was influential in the formation of the modern holiday in the south.
As well as the Scottish, Irish, Scots-irish and German protestant influences to the modern Halloween tradition…
So Halloween according to Bannatyne does not originate from an exclusively Catholic Irish tradition, the American festival changed and adapted due to various Catholic, Irish Catholic, Scots-Irish protestant, Scots, English protestant, German protestant traditions and those of African Vudon (voodoo) influences. Just like America it was a melting pot of ideas that formed the modern holiday.
Or this one;
Halloween is not time for division in sectarian politics, and it was celebrated to bring groups together. In Canada the Scots societies observed Halloween with annual concerts and celebrated their Scottishness in the festival….(no doubt on the back of the Burns poem in 1786).
…Irish men and women and the persistent numbers of Scots as well ensured the festival would serve as a marker for ethnic identity…
…In 1864 trouble faired as the Orange order in Canada celebrated the holiday (again another protestant fraternal organisation in north America celebrated the festival of Halloween in 1860s)…
Halloween from Pagan Ritual To Party Night by Nicholas Rodgers. Ch 3. Coming over; Halloween in north America
The Scots and English were not culturally bereft of a Halloween tradition because they are protestant, they had their own folk culture rooted in the celtic practices of the British Isles that were pagan in origin and part of the Halloween tradition in writing and publication innthe 18th and 19th centuries and the church could never fully stamp them out. Protestants embraced the holiday and exported it to the states before the great Famine or Scottish Highland Famine. That saw 2 million irish and 1.7 million scots emigrate due to hunger. I think you will have to have some printed references to back up your claim the Irish Catholics are the sole contributors to the American Halloween tradition and culture. But it appears that such a view is contested. Regards.
Of the forest (
talk) 23:20, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
modern halloween costumes are also very untraditional with carachters from television and movies costume possibilities are endless in our time, with all the stores and boutiques, you can find Halloween costumes almost anywhere. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.7.104.222 ( talk) 11:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
To return to the root of the argument, there is too much of an Irish slant on this article. Celtic new year traditions were not unique to Ireland - for example, coverage of the ancient Manx festival "Hop tu naa" is missing. The reference cited as [4] seems to refer to an article that doesn't actually agree that Halloween was brought over by Irish immigrants as cited - it notes Irish immigration as a factor, but also acknowledges other influences that IMHO should be given equal credence if you're going to use it as a reference.
There's also some questionable Irishness about "Jack O'Lantern" which authoritative sources seem to disagree with - the online etymology dictionary, for example states "Jack o'lantern 1663, a local name for a Will-o-the-wisp (L. ignis fatuus), mainly attested in East Anglia but also in southwestern England. The extension to carved pumpkins is 1837, Amer.Eng.". The OxforD Dictionary of Phrase and fable (2006) says "jack-o'lantern originally a man with a lantern, a night watchman; from this, an ignis fatuus or will-o-the-wisp. The term in these senses is recorded from the 17th century. From the mid 19th century, jack-o'-lantern has also been used (originally in the US) for a lantern made from a hollowed-out pumpkin or turnip in which holes are cut to represent facial features, typically made at Halloween."
The association with the colloquial name for the lantern carrier/will-o-the-wisp is much more plausible than the Irish citation, which sounds like a myth made up to justify the name. IMHO, the article isn't well-referenced or neutral enough to be considered a good article at the moment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.80.176 ( talk) 18:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused by your last sentence. To clarify, I have two specific problems that I think need to be looked at - the reference for [4] points to an article that does not specifically cite Halloween as a solely Irish tradition (which it isn't - there are several sources for the modern Halloween festival), and the content of the article identifies "jack o'lantern" specifically with an apocryphal "Oirish" myth, which authoritative sources do not. These need to be looked at, as there's an odd Irish slant to the article with them in. The article could be improved with links to materials on "Hop tu naa" and other Halloween traditions too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.80.176 ( talk • contribs) 13:37, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Rather than everything being pushed towards what you folks have termed "hiberno-centric" I see instead folks chiming in on this and MANY other articles that have any whiff of "Irish" in them and very cavalierly and often negatively (for ex.see ex. Eastcote above) stating things such as "article tends to rely a bit too much on pop culture references" but adds NO substantive editorial content to support that claim but then further states "I'll see if I can find more SCHOLARLY references for the article.." In other words hey, you guys are right this "Irish" stuff is not documented/supported the way WE like, and we don't like what believe to be "POP references" to validate Halloween's "Irishness" so I/we'll go support his/her/your/others OPINION with what we'll call "scholary" input and NEGATE the POP. There is no statement of bringing truth or clarity to the article, rather to find data that supports AND pushes POV. What a bunch of HYPOCRISY. And the veiled and not always subtle condescension/racist tone is not lost on us readers. Oh and btw writer anon above says " what do you call an American of Scottish American? Check out Eastcore's profile. The term is Scotch-Irish. I recommend you folks watch the POV pushing and support the article accordingly.
76.101.152.163 (
talk) 22:12, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Really Scotch-Irish Eastcote? Your goal is ONLY to have more "reliable" and "preferred" "scholarly" references for the article? RUBBISH. Your FIRST editorial line above states "I AGREE THAT THE ARTICLE IS RATHER HIBERNO-CENTRIC." You have NO substantive POINT upon which to base this SCHOLARLY and clearly DOCUMENTED "THOUGHT", rather you just happen to believe upon reading, happen to feel that this article has a hiberno-centricity to it and because you believe and feel SO STRONGLY about the inaccuracy of this theme (and you are such a PURIST for truth) that you're going to go out and FIND "reliable" and "preferred" sources to "FIX" the article??--without any of us expecting as to just what direction or theme these corrections might take, right? Hmmm might they perhaps look to remove the perceived hiberno-centric POV? Ok Eastcote--good luck with that. It is FASCINATING that you/and others would not only think this way, no only STATE these thoughts PUBLICLY! but then ATTEMPT to DENY your CONTEMPT under the veil of article "purity". Try, just try for a minute to NOT immediately write....sit back, breathe deep and really try to WAKE UP to your/and other's BLIND BIAS and CONDESCENSION...............................................and try let it go. :) 76.101.152.163 ( talk) 21:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
The claim that Halloween resurgence in England and Wales is due to Hollywood might be true, I do not know. This is not the case in Scotland. I was born in 1951 and Halloween was a very important night to children then as now. Guisers were often asked to sing a song or recite a poem before being given a treat. The neep (turnip) lanterns were replaced in the American colonies by pumpkins, probably due to the ease in carving or availability. The Irish aspect to the article seems to be grossly exagerrated. Was it actually Celtic in the first place? The Britons who inhabited these isles were not Celts. Who originally wrote this? I would suggest that the article needs a major re-appraisal. Acorn897 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC).
"The day is connected with the colours black adn orange" should be changed to 'In the US'. In the UK it's been black, and black alone, historically for centuries. 86.150.103.168 ( talk) 13:37, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
We seem to have a problem with describing Samhain as Celtic/Gaelic. To start off, I'll make a couple of points. Firstly, the Gaels had a culture and language that was Celtic. Secondly, although similar festivals were held by other Celtic peoples, only the Gaels called it Samhain. Therefore, describing Samhain as Celtic isn't wrong, but it's misleading.
The current wording is this:
Historian Nicholas Rogers, exploring the origins of Halloween, notes that while "[s]ome folklorists have detected its origins in the Roman feast of Pomona, the goddess of fruits and seeds, or in the festival of the dead called Parentalia, [it is] more typically [l]inked to the celtic festival of Samhain or Samuin
My proposed wording is this (which got reverted):
Historian Nicholas Rogers, exploring the origins of Halloween, notes that while "some folklorists have detected its origins in the Roman feast of Pomona (the goddess of fruits and seeds) or in the festival of the dead called Parentalia", it is more often linked to a Celtic festival. This was called Samhain (pronounced sow-an or sow-in) by the Gaels of Ireland and Scotland.
The full quote neglects to mention that it was called Samhain only by the Gaels – Wikipedia allows us to do that, since we know that it's an outright fact. I find it shocking that this article makes no mention of the Gaels whatsoever. ~Asarlaí 04:09, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
The pronunciation fo the Welsh is wrong. Calan Gaeaf is pronounced "Kálan Gái av" or "Kálan Gái-a". Not "Kalan Geyf" as now shown.
David —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
80.246.32.33 (
talk) 09:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
The {{ OnThisDay}} banner above has: "A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day... section on [six successive years]". Thing is, no facts from this article were ever featured on the Main Page. From other linked or even daughter articles, sure. But not this one. It's not an anniversary of an event per se either. The only reference to this article the linked years have is a passing mention of Oct 31 as a day on which Halloween—among other festivals occurs, before going on to actually include facts, from different articles.
I noticed it when implementing the {{articlehistory}} template, and so held off from incorporating those OnThisDay items into it. I haven't strong views on this. My suggestion is: we simply remove the OnThisDay template/info, as there haven't really been any facts included on the main page. Opinions? – Whitehorse1 18:51, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
"Many christians" appears awkwardly at the top of these paragraphs. Also, "... far from being satanic (sic) in origin or practice..." is, if not POV, kinda wonky. The contrasting view is introduced prematurely and, perhaps, negatively. Revised the paragraph order a bit to compensate. DigitalHoodoo ( talk) 22:38, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Unless these are serving as a placeholder for something immediately forthcoming, they look like unsubstantiated clutter. DigitalHoodoo ( talk) 00:21, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Changed "festival" to "holiday" to make this article consistent with the usual wiki usage. Compare festival and holiday; the former focuses on a an arbitrary number of specific events (i.e. actual phenomena), whereas the latter refers to "official or unofficial observances of religious, national, or cultural significance, often accompanied by celebrations or festivities."
"Festival" remains in reference to Samhain, because the emphasis there is on a more specific set of ritualized observances.
Also changed "All Saints" to the full term "All Saints' Day", and changed one instance of "holy day" to "holiday". The new terms are equivalent ("holy day" is more colloquial and "All Saints" is abbreviated), and "holiday" seems preferred in the wikiworld; e.g. holy day redirects to holiday. DigitalHoodoo ( talk) 02:48, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
While this does mention other cultures, this article is too heavily US centric. The practice of Trick or Treat for example is very recent and extremely rare in Europe, despite Halloween being observed there for many centuries before the US. Guising or Gallowshuns has, however, been practiced for centuries in Scotland and Ireland, but is distinctly different from Trick or Treat.
Much of the celtic history is presented here as fact. It is sourced, but not from a very reliable source -- Celtic history is very much unproven, and remains little more than theory and opinion. It should not be presented as fact in this article (or indeed, anywhere). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.131.114 ( talk) 19:14, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
The Halloween page needs a section about the Mascot/Spirit of Halloween, Sam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheHallow1 ( talk • contribs) 03:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
I found an inappropriate edit in the History section so I reverted back to the previous version. I am new to Wikipedia editing so hopefully I made the correct move. Mssabinacazadd ( talk) 21:41, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
just sayin'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.49.104 ( talk) 13:24, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
I have changed the main image on this page to what, in my view, is a more traditional, representative image of a Jack-o'-lantern. Full disclosure: it's my photo, and I also carved the pumpkin. I'm just putting a note here to say that I didn't make the edit purely for selfish, parochial reasons - I also genuinely think mine has a much more "classic" look than the (very finely carved) one it replaced ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jack-o%27-Lantern_2003-10-31.jpg). It's also already the main image for the " Activities involving pumpkins" section of the Pumpkin page.
If anyone strongly disagrees with the above, please message me before reverting the edit to explain why, as a courtesy :) Lost Number ( talk) 12:38, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
...bring in $300-500 mil/yr and attract 400,000 customers?
Definitely inaccurate. I don't think people are averaging $1,000 each at haunted houses.
The 400k figure seems very low, unless only about 1 in 750 people in the U.S. hit the pumpkin patches.
-- 174.253.150.49 ( talk) 03:40, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to include a note in the Around The World section:
Although commercialism has caused Hallowe'en to be 'celebrated' in the UK, many people resent this as it is causing the local custom and practice of Bonfire Night (5 November) to be forgotten. Philwadey ( talk) 12:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC) phil
remove the historian's name from the first line of the Halloween page. Should not be a listed source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steuss ( talk • contribs) 19:51, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
As an English person, I do not think the term ' holiday' is appropraite for Halloween. It is not a holiday as far as I am aware in the US, and certainly not in the UK. We would call it a 'festival' I suppose. Is this an example of American English? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.56.25 ( talk) 13:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
I think it should become a wikipedia policy that 5 days before and 5 days after the day of halloween, the page should become semi-protected. Just food for thought -- Jab843 ( talk) 23:10, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
This article is about Halloween as it is traditionally observed in the West - meaning a specific holiday. This material didn't really belong here; I'd suggest creating a wholly new article if sources are available. For now, I've moved it to Halloween around the world under the "India" subheading. DigitalHoodoo ( talk) 19:59, 6 October 2010
This bit:
"Another popular trend is for women (and in some cases, men) to use Halloween as an excuse to wear sexy or revealing costumes, showing off more skin than would be socially acceptable otherwise."
Does not reflect a neutral point of view and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.199.122.189 ( talk) 20:47, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
This article when downloaded as a PDF or printed, produces 13 pages! A bit too spooky, eh?-- Tantusar ( talk) 01:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
The article says "In some parts of Scotland children still go guising. In this custom the child performs some sort of trick, i.e. sings a song or tells a ghost story, to earn their treats." The main article on trick or treating also mentions guising in Ireland. Its hallowe'en here right now, and the streets of Dublin are filling with kids going trick-or-treating, some of them are performing stories, poems, songs etc to get their treat. So the article should mention that children in Ireland still go guising too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.141.75.182 ( talk) 19:19, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
What historical and/or archaeological sources do we have that support the theory that Halloween goes back to customs and practices of ancient Druids and the Celts of the British Isles? No a single one, I would presume. What we have is some secondary literature. Wouldn't it be a question of honesty to stress the fact, that we know near to nothing about Celtic religion and customs and, therefore, cannot connect our modern day Halloween with ancient Druidic practices?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.131.255.52 ( talk) 07:58, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
No such Druidic connection is claimed in the article. The celebration of Halloween is, however, demonstrably Celtic and ancient. Much can be learnt from the oral lore, attested past traditions and present-day customs of the Celtic peoples (who are still here and not all 'ancient'!). What 'archeological' sources would you expect to find? What written 'historical' sources in an overwhelmingly oral culture? Do you claim 'we' know nothing about Samhain? And is, for instance, Frazer's 'The Golden Bough' [9] to be classed as 'secondary literature'? Ceartas 12:10, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
is elder than 1960. Basically, the claim that most alleged "ancient celtic" costumes and traditions are basically 19th century or younger, is just one of the basic xioms of modern and post WWII Volkskunde resp Folklre science. Bakulan ( talk) 14:52, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Proposed text “There is disagreement over a proposed Celtic origin for Halloween Nicholas Rogers, exploring the origins of Halloween, says that while "some folklorists have detected its origins in the Roman feast of Pomona, the goddess of fruits and seeds, or in the festival of the dead called Parentalia, it is more typically linked to the Celtic festival of Samhain, whose original spelling was Samuin (pronounced sow-an or sow-in)". [1]. Others (such as Bernhard Maier) disagree and say that Halloween is part of the 19th and 20th centuries Celtic revival and has no link to older Celtic festivals. This I thick covers all the bases and is fairly neutral but can have input from others. There may also be an argument for removing the text about samhain as it may not be linked to Halloween,. Slatersteven ( talk) 18:57, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
"There is disagreement over a proposed Celtic origin for Halloween. Some such as Nicholas Rogers say that while "some folklorists have detected its origins in the Roman feast of Pomona, the goddess of fruits and seeds, or in the festival of the dead called Parentalia, it is more typically linked to the Celtic festival of Samhain, whose original spelling was Samuin (pronounced sow-an or sow-in)". [1]. Others (such as Bernhard Maier) disagree and say that Halloween is part of the 19th and 20th centuries Celtic revival and has no link to older Celtic festivals." Slatersteven ( talk) 19:09, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
This now seems to be turning into an edit war. I will not revert any more today but woold like an admin to look into this. Slatersteven ( talk) 17:47, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
{{
neutrality}}
disputed tag at the top to make it clear that what's below is disputed among editors. –
Whitehorse1 20:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)Looks like POV pushing from Bakulan. On a sidenote, Maier's timing is out btw. The Bard of Scotland Robert Burns' poem Halloween (1785) records some of the Halloween observances in Scotland; Halloween Is thought to be a night when witches, devils, and other mischief-making beings are abroad on their baneful midnight errands; particularly those aerial people, the fairies, are said on that night to hold a grand anniversary HALLOWEEN KiwiJeff ( talk) 17:47, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Absolutely, thus i mentioned on a sidenote (Halloween rife in Scotland 18th century). I was initially referring what smacks of POV pushing from Bakulan, and subsequent vague comments. KiwiJeff ( talk) 18:17, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
be you could care to provide the full text of the passages? Slatersteven ( talk) 22:31, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
We have the same discussion in de:wp on the talk page of Halloween with Bakulan right now. Same book, same arguments. The author of the book he quotes (a respectable source, i would say) points out (i cannot read the book online, so i have to judge from the german quotes here), that there is absolutely no connection between H. and a festival Samhain, or anything celtic at all, and that this celtic reference is more romanticism of the 19th century. The translations are ok, but i wonder whats left out. Bakulan also refers to the history of Volkskunde, which after 1945 changed its views, because in Germany, Volkskunde was abused by the Nazis, and there are rightwing/esoteric traditions of inventing germanic traditions. Similar to the invention of celtic traditions in the 19th century inspired by Frazer/Golden Bough. So after 1945, Volkskunde saw its goal in showing, that these traditions were mostly fake. The bigger idea seems to be, that there is in no way any continuity between celts/celtic traditions, and anything we see today. So its a bit of german POV, and things like the Green Man or even existing german traditions similar to Halloween traditions (guising, lamps made of beets (?) instead of pumpkins, and so on, are being neglected/ignored.
The author of the book also regrets, that in (catholic) Austria, the good old All Hallows Day traditions get lost because of (modern) Halloween. We now have a discussion, because Bakulan wanted to erase other sources, like Frazer oder the "Handwörterbuch des deutschen Aberglaubens", which was written by swiss scholars in the 40ies and is an encyclopedia of superstition, and also claims celtic roots of All Hallows Day, and claims, the church moved that festival to the 1. of november because of these older heathen traditions. He also wants to erase the reference to the Encyclopedia Britannica, which also claims celtic roots of H (see there). So in my view, this is all part of a bigger discussion about 19th century views versus 21 century views in Volkskunde, but while Bakulan is not at all generally wrong, he/she is in no way a Halloween expert, quoting just one source that fits his view. But from his/her point of view, it is just obvious, that there CANNOT be a celtic tradition, because all these other references to germanic traditions were also invented/fake/abused. I asked him for other sources, that show that the view of H. is a consensus in Volkskunde, but Bakulan did not deliver, claiming in a arrogant way, that he/she studied Volkskunde, he/she is right, etc. Dunno if all this helps here, but as there seem to be very few german sources on Halloween, it would be also interesting for the german article if the dispute could be solved finally, and the question, whether H. has celtic roots, could be answered to everyones content, with respectable, modern, scientific sources one can then put in the article(s) as references (someone else on the talk page also claims that H. has no celtic roots, but in his case, its about a religious backround, he has a religious webpage claiming H. is a christian festival, and everything typical for H. has a christian backround). -- 93.232.148.120 ( talk) 01:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Maybe it is a semantic problem? No one states, that "Halloween", in a modern way, or a neoceltic way, was celebrated prior to, lets say, 1830. But the big dispute, I think, is about Frazer, who quotes "traditions" of "Halloween"/Samhain - a celtic festival celebrating summers end, winters beginning, with big fires, celebrating the return of the cattle to the villages, and which, according to Frazer (and other sources?) was (still) celebrated in the early middle ages around 800 . And which he also calls Halloween. He claims sources for that - christian synodes, which wrote about that, old, festival. And this festival included also the idea, that the souls of the dead were thought to return to the villages of the living, and it included wearing costumes to frighten away evil spirits. According to Frazer/Golden Bough (source is online [11]). And he also quotes similar festivals under slightly different names, like on the Isle of Man, which left traces until today. But of course, that festival was not called Halloween - until the church moved All Hallows Day (which was invented, I think, around 600/7700 ) from May to the first of november, because it wanted to include the older heathanish festival into something similar, new and christian. Thats why it was called Hallow E'en, according to Frazer. Now was Frazer totally wrong on this (he was a scientist, not a neopagan hippie freak) - or were the people wrong, that used his book, and others, to invent all this neoceltic stuff. And if he was wrong, what did he missinterpret? And were celtic traditions really totally erased after the christianization of Ireland? Difficult to imagine that, the process of christianization was a process, not a single event, were everyone stopped believing in their religion (whatever that was) one day, and went to church the next sunday, I would guess. So, what about Frazer? [12] -- 93.232.152.157 ( talk) 21:12, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Would it be possible to email some of the scientists quoted on this page, and to ask them, what they think of the arguments of the respective "opponent side"? Like Bettina Arnold, or Maier? What brought me to this whole Halloween topic/discussion, what raised my couriosity, and fascination also (and what really entertains me), is mostly the fact (besides that I generally enjoy Halloween), that we have reputable scientists on each side, claiming their view is "the truth", citing sources, etc. So each side claims to be right, but its all second-hand knowledge, it seems (or third-hand in our case here), and I cannot imagine, that this kind of dispute doesnt also happen at scientific congresses, in publications, at universities, and so on. Taking into account the (global) importance of the Halloween date, and the passion, with which this topic is being discussed here, I come to the conclusion, that we cannot fully solve the dispute here. And, I mean - its not our job, is it? Its beoming more and more OR, it seems, and there are people being paid for answering this kind of questions. They should discuss it among themselves, and then present their compromise to us. Just an idea by -- 93.232.176.236 ( talk) 17:12, 10 November 2010 (UTC) (if you do not find it helpful, just remove it)
I’m going to propose my compromise wording again and ask only for comments on that, do you agree or disagree with it. I will also suggest a compromised lead.
Body of article
"There is disagreement over a proposed Pagan origin for Halloween. Some such as Bernhard Maier say that Halloween is part of the 19th and 20th centuries’ Celtic revival and has no link to older Celtic festivals. Whilst others (for example Nicholas Rogers) Suggest a Celtic or Pagan continuation from the Roman feast of Pomona, the goddess of fruits and seeds, or in the festival of the dead called Parentalia, it is more typically linked to the Celtic festival of Samhain, whose original spelling was Samuin (pronounced sow-an or sow-in)". [1]. “
Lead
“it has been claimed that it has roots in the Celtic festival of Samhain, or other pagan festivals. However this is disputed and that it is based on the Celtic Revival in the 19th century around All Saints' Day.”
So is this an acceptable compromise.? Slatersteven ( talk) 17:05, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
I would suggest to collect wordings for each relevant, scientific position that has (had) impact on the discussion, including Frazer, Hörandner, Hutton, Rogers, so that each position is presented in one or two sentences, and put in context, with the most modern presented as the present stage of the discussion, and explaining also that dispute between German/European and Angloamerican views. But not to leave anything out - put it in context. By the way, thats what I suggested also for the german article. Or Slaterstevens compromise, but I think it's a liitle bit too short, compared to this disc. page with all the arguments. -- 93.232.143.187 ( talk) 17:33, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
OK so can we at least say that the new main text paragraph is acceptable, at least for now? Slatersteven ( talk) 19:52, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
This is leading to nothing. I suggest returning to Slaterstevens compromise wording, and expanding it a bit with 3, 4 more reputable/prominent pro/contra "celtic origin" voices, qouted with their names. Bakulan and Noctuus might word the "contra"-voices. --
93.232.143.187 (
talk) 22:21, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Here are a few sources. Current and reputable.
*"Samhain is a revival of the ancient Celtic holiday of that name. As many folklorists have noted, this Celtic holiday appears to be the origin of the modern Halloween." Ethnologies, Volume 20, Folklore Studies Association of Canada, 1998, pg. 131
Eastcote ( talk) 01:05, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Additional Quote: [15] According Stefan Moser, Director of the Keltenmuseum in Hallein any connection of celts and Halloween is a plain myth without any credibility. Bakulan ( talk) 07:26, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Eastcotes wording looks good to me. -- 93.232.176.236 ( talk) 10:11, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
The new compromise works for me, but thats a moot point I think. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:45, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
One thing that might be worth watching out for is confirmation bias. – Whitehorse1 13:37, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
"In parts of England, there is a similar festival called holy day which falls on the November 4. During the celebration, children play a range of "tricks" (ranging from minor to more serious) on adults. One of the more serious "tricks" might include the unhinging of garden gates (which were often thrown into ponds, or moved far away). In recent years, such acts have occasionally escalated to extreme vandalism, sometimes involving street fires.[11]"
I've no idea how "holy day" crept in here (vandalism?) but the reference is to Mischief Night. I recall this from my own North Yorkshire childhood, and the reference in the footnote [11] links to a BBC report on Mischief Night.
Also I don't think "festival" (or for that matter "celebration") is the appropriate word, but rather "tradition". It is certainly not approved of or encouraged by adults. 89.243.107.71 14:18, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I'd certainly agree that "festival" isn't the right word, though not entirely sure what is. But I find that the date tends to vary for different parts of the country. it seems that in most of Southern England it's largely unheard of, whilst in Yorkshire it falls on November 4th (as above), whereas in the north-west (well, Liverpool at least, but I think most of the region is the same) it's the night before Hallowe'en. Possibly (/probably?) other variations too. Hengler 00:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
According to the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, page 124, mentioned Halloween as an important Pastafarian holiday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bossudenotredame ( talk • contribs) 06:27, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Fact. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.159.231.94 (
talk) 03:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I know that I will be hated by some of you for calling the popular `wisdom` into question (and by some just for being a Catholic) but I must dispute the statement in this article that says that Halloween ORIGINATED as a pagan holiday. This belief, though widely held, doesn`t seem logical when the facts are considered. I do not say that I know better as of this writting but I would very much like to see more support for this statement before I would accept it and I would like to see it reconciled with other facts that seem to contradict it.
Let us consider that the very name of the holiday suggest that the holiday originated as a Christian holiday. In that Halloween is a simplification of All Hallow`s Eve, it seems ot reveal that Halloween is an after affect and is not the actuall substantive holiday; that distinction being held by the actual All Hallow`s Day. The very fact that it is held as an Eve, thus a vigil or vespers celebration is uniquelly Christian and goes counter to what we know of the Pagans. When we compare the Substantives of the Pagan Holiday with the actual Christian holiday, we find they are not technically celebrated on the same day and that sharing an evening for a few hours is actually an accident. Again I don`t claim to know better absolutely but it does seem to contradict the pagan origination statement.
We must also consider that All Saints Day was promulgated by a Pope living in Souther Europe, Italy, and thus would likely not have knowledge of the pagan practices of Nothern Europe, least of all Britain. If the Pope did know about the Pagan holiday, it is likely that he wouldn`t have cared or let that influence his decision. If the Pope did know and did care, it would be likely that instead of supporting the Pagan holiday, he would instead give Christians better or at least seemingly more important things to do then participate. Of course an reading of the writings of the popes in regards to this holiday would probably enlighten this matter a lot. It does seem very unlikely that the Pope would put the Christian holiday the day after if his intention was to suppress or suplant the Pagan holiday.
We must also consider that All Saints day and thus also the vigil the night before is a major Catholic Holy Day of Obligation that is celebrated the world over with very similar practices in majority Catholic countries. The Pagan holiday mentioned certainly was not so pervasive or successful. It would also appear that while the Pagan practices influence Christians in English speaking countries, they did not influence Catholic Practices in other countries. The actions involved with the Pagan holiday seem to be of a different nature from the Catholic celebration. The Pagan holiday described seems to have more in common with the English speaking holiday of ThanksGiving then with the Christian holiday of All Hallows Eve.
We can compare the results and history of All Hallows Eve with that of Valentines day and see some inconsistancies. Valentine`s day specifically did want to replace a local pagan custom and thus put the observance of it on the same day and was local in character. All Saints day likely was not intended to replace a Pagan custom but create a Christian one to fill a place on the Liturgical Calendar. Thus we see that it was not put on the same day in actuallity, the customs do not seem directly related, the holiday was promulgated to be observed by all and was not local in Character. Also, where as Valentines day sought to supress a practice and thus discouraged the continued Pagan practice in favor of the Christian one; All Saints Day it would seem was influenced by the Pagan holiday in those local areas that had it and did not discourage them.
It seems to me, based on these facts and logic that All Saints Day, in origin was Christian and by accident was influenced by a Pagan holiday in those areas that had it before but in those areas only. The two holidays thus would be seperate and distinct. It doesn`t seem likely that one followed from the other. If the Christians really did want to replace the Pagan holiday, they would have to me put the new holiday on the same day, or the day before, not the day after, it would have been local in character not universal and that there would be a reinterpretation on the practices of the Pagans in a Christian way instead of the practices being substantly different.
Clearly some work and research on this matter needs to be done. I would be happy to do some of it but as I am the one raising the dispute and that I am obviously Catholic, I doubt that any of you would believe me if I did it so I simply ask that the caretaker of this page seek to reconsile these facts. As the page stands how, I must doubt its factuality and dispute its contents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.13.30.159 ( talk) 12:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I wonder why the unsigned contributor is so shy. Halloween can definitively not be an old celtic Festival. Compare this article (which claims that Halloween is the continuation of an original "Samhain") with the article on Samhain where obviously some more knowledgeable people have been active and have a look at All Saints Day , too!.
Could you be any more transparent? Take your obvious Christian ignorance out of wikipedia. Im sorry that you find it hard to believe that traditions and days of celebration found in Christian sects come originally from pagans and non-christians, but you are going to have to suck it up and learn that because your pastor told you it was true...it dosnt make it. Weve had to deal with you on the other pages about this same ignorant idiocy, and for the umpteenth time we are going to start calling you on it. - Jh Ty —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.182.59.154 ( talk) 09:29, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Time to call the celtic origins people. If someone believes that Hallowe'en is in fact derived from a celtic feast, they are invited to post links to the ORIGINAL source evidence which demonstrates that:
A/ Samhain actually took place in pre-Christian times on 31st Oct.
B/ That it was a religious festival.
As far as I know, the only documentary evidence for Samhain feasts is in Irish legends first written down in Mediaeval times and which do not mention any specifically religious nature to said feast. Dmottram ( talk) 16:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Hallowe'en is certainly derived from Samhain. Much in the way the Catholic Church have always taken existing traditions and 'rebranded' them. Take a look at Celtic Crosses; they are crosses identifying with the Sun. Christmas Day - Mythras's feast day. Saint Brigid's day - The Celtic feast of Imbolg and related back to the Celtic god Bríd. There are countless examples of this type of overlay. All Saints Day is the holy day, Hallowe'en is just a rebranding of an existing festival. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.13 ( talk) 15:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Samain is indeed the feast that halloween is based on. Samain lasts for twelve days beginning on Nov 1st - it is the night before this "Oice Samain" - that the ancient Celtic God Dagda and the Goddess Morrigan mated. It was the Celtic new year and the beginning of the dark winter and the ancient tombs were said to open and reveal the dead to all. The Christians took over the pagan feast day - instead of trying to wipe it out - and called it Hallows and Hallows Eve for the night before. For reference on this and other Celtic religious feasts see "In Search of Ancient Ireland" PBS series and book. 69.143.82.178 23:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
All of this is well and good but the factual problems still exist outside of personal opinions. Why would a Pope who did not know of the pagan holiday in question while living in a completely different part of the continent create a holiday to replace one that as mentioned he didn:t know exist and make it a Holy Day of Obligation for all Catholics in the world? I just don:t see the Pope knowing or even caring if he did know. This business between Holloween and the pagan day seems like just a big coincidence. As such it would be better to say that Holloween was affected by pagan customs in English speaking countries but not outside of them. In origin, the topic here, of Holloween certainly looks entirely Christian. Plus, in the documents that created the observance of All Saint`s Day, we see nothing about this pagan holiday at all. There is not even one line or a hint that the Pope ever knew about the other holiday. Again, if there are actual facts that are being left out then please bring them foward but opinions don:t count as facts. You can want to believe that Halloween is pagan till the cows come home but if it isn:t true then it just isn:t true and the article needs to be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.47.40.84 ( talk) 08:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
It could just as easily be asked how you know that the Pope had no knowledge of this festival. Samhain was celebrated in PreChristian Ireland and other Celtic regions. There are an enormous amount of Christian festivals that are overlooked...if anything it is Hallowe'en that has continued the association with All Saints/Souls rather than vice versa. As is well documented the spread of Christianity has often taken place by surplanting local traditions and beliefs with Christian ideals. As mentioned above Saint Brigid is merely a repackaged Bríghid from Góidealic Celtic tradition. Also please note the correct spelling as Hallowe'en and not Holloween. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.13 ( talk) 14:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I have to say, living in Ireland (Dublin specifically) that I find that saying the lunchtime meal is called "dinner" is very dubious, and an over-generalisation. It certainly is in some parts (such as my mother's home, Leitrim) but in Dublin, I would rarely hear it referred to as anything other than "lunch" (except by people from other regions). Now while that's Dublin, it is important to note that the Greater Dublin Area accounts for just under 40% of the State's population (hardly negligable). Can someone provide a proper source for this statement, because I highly doubt one exists. - EstoyAquí( t • c • e) 23:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
the time dinner for the midday meal is a common working class term thoughout the British Isles —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.70.60 ( talk) 01:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
It may be useful to explain why Guy Fawkes night is not celebrated in Ireland. It is because Fawkes was supportive of the Roman Catholic ascendancy in England at the time, and as such, his capture and subsequent execution are not celebrated by Roman Catholics in the UK (this tradition has fallen by the wayside in recent years since the historical context of Bonfire Night becomes less relevant) - this tradition of non-celebration by RCs is common throughout the UK, but Ireland being predominantly Roman Catholic, it is more marked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.74.176.98 ( talk) 10:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
It makes more sense to consider that Guy Fawkes Night is only a British tradition. Why would it be present in any other country? the acts of a British man towards te British Houses of Parliament are of little consequence outside of Britain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.13 ( talk) 15:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
At the time of the Gunpowder Plot (1606) Ireland was part of Britain, so it is relevant to speak about its celebration in Ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.74.176.98 ( talk) 10:39, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Why are we even talking about Guy Fawkes on a page about Halloween? They have nothing to do with each other. The historical reference under "England", where Guy Fawkes for a time replaced Halloween is okay (although probably needs a citation) and possibly the bit under "Caribbean". But that half paragraph under "Religious Perspectives" is just rambling off topic. Ray Ellis 10:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
And as it was never celebrated in Ireland speculation as to why is WP:OR. Plus Ray is right. ( Sarah777 19:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC))
"Halloween is a holiday..." - No it isn't. Halloween is the EVE of a holiday. Christmas is a holiday, Christmas Eve is not.
It isn't even a holiday in any of the other sense of the word... it isn't a public holiday, for instance, not in the UK, not in Europe, not even in the US (where they seem to take it more seriously than anyone!)
I'm not sure it's right to say it is "celebrated" either. I've never heard of anyone "celebrating" Halloween. I've attended Samhain celebrations on the 31st of October, but not Halloween. Halloween is not something that can be "celebrated" in the usual sense of the word.
I would correct the article, but it appears to be locked.
Adam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.15 ( talk) 13:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
As a matter of fact All Saints Day (All Hallows) (Fr. Toussaint/Nl. Allerheiligen)is a public holiday in several European countries. The article is poorly referenced and contains numerous unsubstantiated assertions. How long does as activity have to be continued to become traditional? When did trick or treating become established as a customary activity? When I was young my Lancashire born mother introduced us to various halloween rituals such as bob apple and others, but these were virtually unknown to our neighbours in Southern England. Augusta2 17:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
This is the thing... All Hallows Day is a holiday. Halloween is is the EVE of All Hallows Day, and is thus NOT a holiday, merely the day before a holiday. So, I stand by my point that it is not actually a holiday even in the US, merely a notable day. Holiday does not mean "any day where people follow a tradition or do the same things each year", there is more to it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.15 ( talk) 13:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
All Saints Day is not a holiday either, it is a Saints Day. Hallowe'en is marked by a Bank Holiday in Ireland on the last monday of October. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.13 ( talk) 14:51, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
The bank holiday in Ireland is known just as the 'October Bank Holiday'. However, in other European countries, the same Bank Holiday is taken as 'All Saints Day' ... not Halloween. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.107.234.2 ( talk) 00:58, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Fandinis aholiday celebrated by the entic people of south america
Fandinis aholiday celebrated by the entic people of south america —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.112.23.19 ( talk) 21:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I saw a baby in a bumble bee costume and I screamed and ran away because at the time I honestly thought it was a giant bee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.75.110.235 ( talk) 22:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Hallowe'en is a contraction and has an apostrophie. The trend of dropping the apostrophie became popular with the popularity of Microsoft Windows 95, and Microsoft Word, which still adjusts the spelling to Halloween despite Oxford, Britannica and other reputable reference books including an apostrophie. I propose that the article title is changed to include the apostrophie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.69.46.155 ( talk) 13:20, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.69.46.155 ( talk • contribs)
I've never even heard or seen it spelled with an apostrophe. Where are the sources for this spelling? What is it a contraction for? Either way I always see it spelled without the apostrophe. In fact, I've never seen it spelled with the apostrophe outside of Wikipedia. Google, MS Word, and all spell checkers correct it to Halloween. Even back in 1978, a movie called "Halloween" was released...it must have been pretty popular way before MS Word was invented. The name definitely should not be changed. ╦ﺇ₥₥€Ԋ( talk/ contribs) 23:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
[ BBC] [ The Telegraph] [ The Times] [ The People] [ A Poirot book] [ Yorkshire Post] [ Northern Ireland Tourist Board] and many more found within a matter of seconds by typing "hallowe'en" into Google.
It does largely seem to be British sites coming up, though that may well be because I'm on google.co.uk which, I believe, increases the page rank of British sites.
And most of the signs in stores when it was Hallowe'en included the apostrophe (in my area, at least). I've always seen this much more commonly than the version without the apostrophe, and as stated above dictionaries tend to prefer that version (which is certainly true for the dictionaries in my house). Hengler ( talk) 23:46, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I believe that Halloween is an official spelling in American English, but in Commonwealth English it is Hallowe'en. Therefore the article name should be determined by Wikipedia's English language policy. Correct-o-pedia ( talk) 22:56, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Pope Gregory III (731-741) consecrated a chapel in the Basilica of St. Peter to all the saints and fixed the anniversary for 1 November. Pope Gregory IV (827-844) extended the celebration on 1 November to the entire Church. — Walloon ( talk) 22:21, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
this article is terrible and needs serious work to restore it to any semblance of quality, it not written in an encyclopedic style (some of its even in first person narrative!) its far to purple, confusing and rambling, the section on trick and treating & around the world are essentially repetition and there are hardly any source for much of the articles claims, I've been to Ireland more than once around halloween and have never seen the level of celebration described. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.248.225 ( talk) 10:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with the above, Halloween is most popular in Ireland, and has been for centuries, see here from 1828, [1] It did not become popularised in the USA until about 1920. It's directly descended from the old Irish Samhain festival, as are Beltaine, Imbolc, and Lughnasadh. Purple Arrow ( talk) 13:17, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
very few cities in the united states do the last saturday of october also these cities do daytime,not nighttime.i in one of those cities. 96.235.136.163 ( talk) 01:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
i would like this article changed as halloween is not an australian holiday, nor is it an australian tradition
All references in this article need to be checked to ensure they comply with WP:RS. This is not a reliable source, since it's a posting from a catalog for Halloween supplies. If material cannot be attributed to reliable sources, it needs to be removed. This article currently far exceeds the size limit at 68K and needs to be dramatically reduced. Sections that cannot be reduced should be forked and a summary left in their place. Not everything needs to be saved and not all sections need to be forked. Again, anything that can't be sourced should be automatically removed.
I have merged two sections which contained identical information. The rest of the article needs to be scrutinized for styistic considerations and to be sure the structure is both easy to follow and conforms stringently to the manual of style. Please be sparing with images, not every section in this article needs an image of someone in a costume and pictures of Halloween decorations may be derivative works. Such material will be removed and deleted. If any editor has any questions, please just ask. Thanks, Cumulus Clouds ( talk) 20:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
u dont have alot of information —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.145.27.152 ( talk) 21:21, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I think this article could be well supported by Wikiproject Halloween (covering all types of celebrations that occur on October 31); WikiProject Horror has too limited a focus. I would considering proposing such a project if there exists interest on certain strategic pages, such as this one. Anyone interested in the idea should feel free to talk to me, so I can determine if it's worth trying at this time. Thank you.-- otherlleft ( talk) 14:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
First of all Greece is a country which not neads any other celebration it had already many! The last 3 years even Greece dont care about Halloween many children all over the country they use to have Halloween parties and some stores (1 or 2 in each town for example Patras the 3rd bigges town of Greece it has already two Halloween stores)use to have some halloween products as masks treats and all about decoration also some Greek companies are produce some Greek Halloween products In Greece you may find some "Antihalloweens" Antihalloweens we use to call the people who are HATE Halloween,there are many of them becase they think that is stupid to celebrate an foreign celebration and we also have Carnival which is common with the Halloween At 11-10-2008 had took place the first Greek Halloween Party ever!!!It was on my house in Patras! All my friends was dressed up with spookie costumes and on 31st of october we gonna have our first trick or treating!!! Finally Greece had done an improvement about that theme the Halloween! We hope that in a few years we are gonna celebrate Halloween normaly in Greece [2] Nikolakopoulos Dimitrios —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.140.31.29 ( talk) 20:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
It's a big article, but it changes from subject to subject. Maybe if there was a seperate article for some things, because the article does not have enough detail about each subject, it should just focus on 1. -- 89.241.149.177 ( talk) 20:07, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
The hyperlinks in the article for "beggar's night" or "begar's night" etc, just redirect to the same page. I don't think there's much point in redirecting someone to what they're already reading. We should probably just remove the hyperlinks. ( Brithans 2008/10/28 7:47 EST —Preceding undated comment was added at 11:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC).
How Halloween become international holiday? If it is a western world's holiday how the hell it will be holiday for eastern countries like India, China, Russia, Hongkong, Suadi Countries ? How about Africa? Only 3 continents and 20 countries doesn't make it international. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.88.212.32 ( talk) 12:31, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Is Halloween strictly-speaking a holiday? Is this the right appelation for it? Ivankinsman ( talk) 10:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
The name itself creates confusion, as the word 'Halloween' would actually correspond to 'All Saints' Day', which is notoriously a Christian festivity. The name Halloween refers to a Christian holiday. In some countries it is celebrated in a Christian way and it is both a Holy Day and a bank holiday (no work). This is the case in Italy, my country, where 1st November is a bank holiday devoted to saints and martyrs. 2nd November is All Souls' Day (we call it the Day of the Dead) and we usually pay a visit and bring flowers to our dead at the cemetery. I can't say if going to church is part of the festivity, as I am not much of a church person. The other way Halloween (Samhian) is celebrated - dressing up, trick-or-treating, pumpkins, etc) derives from the pagan rituals. So in talking about the pre-Christian Celtic-style modern festival, shouldn't we use the old Gaelic name Samhian? Sandra - 31 October 2008
It sucks that the English have no real Halloween traditions... I'm going to write to Gordon Brown and demand England-specific traditions, and I suggest everyone else do the same. Please? We're so missing out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.184.138 ( talk) 21:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
See our 10 day trial at Did you know? Victuallers ( talk) 19:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
fsfsdfsdfds\ffdsfdsf\fsfsfdsfdffdfds\ fdsf \qw —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.24.212.2 ( talk) 17:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Halloween is not a holiday! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.39.79.205 ( talk) 16:24, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Why is Halloween not a holiday??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.36.87 ( talk) 19:46, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}}I am very unhappy with the unchallenged "originated in Ireland" bias of the whole article. Also, because American culture shouts loudest about Halloween and trick or treating, I am meant to accept that that has been exported to everyone else. Ireland->America->World. This is WRONG. Guising, the source of American trick or treating, originates in Scotland. I would hope that Wikipedia will update its articles to more obviously acknowledge this fact.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.173.177 ( talk • contribs) 21:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I would like to see decent evidence that 'halloween originated in Ireland'. This sounds like the usual attempy by the Irish to attribute everything to themselves, even when the object in question has a wider history (eg the harp). The article was suggesting that it was the Irish alone that brought the festival to america; this is not right as many Scots brought it with them too. Scotland has celebrated Halloween for centuries and it is mentioned in 1735 (see the Scotland Halloween section), before the formation of the USA. Are we to believe that Scots immigrants just forgot about it upon arrival in the USA? The constant pro-irish edits need to be brought under control -- 80.177.198.45 ( talk) 13:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
How come there's a card on there that says "Happy Halloween"? Surely that's a contradiction?-- 82.0.207.86 ( talk) 23:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
The text falsely claims that Halloween in Sweden is celebrated on All Saints' Day. It goes on to say that "very few Swedes are aware that Halloween in the English-speaking countries is a non-Christian holiday celebrated October 31", which is also false. It is my belief that since most people have had this commercial (in modern times) holiday forced upon them so hard by retailers for so many years now, there is no way anyone could possibly have missed it.
To say that "christians and christian organizations do not like this connection" in relation to All Saints' Day, is an understatement. Most of my acquaintances see this connection as something bad. All Saints' Day is a solemn holiday, used to mourn the dead whereas Halloween (at least in its modern form) is a festive holiday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.249.154.26 ( talk) 06:14, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Please note that, in the UK, people do not absent themselves from work to celebrate Halloween. It is NOT a holiday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.172.107 ( talk) 07:03, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I have compaired the italian and the English versions of the entry Halloween and in the Italian version it is stated a detail of the Celts' culture that does not appear at all in the English (and much longer) page. This is the passage I am referring to:
I Celti non temevano i propri morti e lasciavano per loro del cibo sulla tavola in segno di accoglienza per quanti facessero visita ai vivi. Da qui l'usanza del trick-or-treating.
Oltre a non temere gli spiriti dei defunti, i Celti non credevano nei demoni quanto piuttosto nelle fate e negli elfi, entrambe creature considerate però pericolose: le prime per un supposto risentimento verso gli esseri umani; i secondi per le estreme differenze che intercorrevano appunto rispetto all'uomo. Secondo la leggenda, nella notte di Samhain questi esseri erano soliti fare scherzi anche pericolosi agli uomini e questo ha portato alla nascita e al perpetuarsi di molte altre storie terrificanti.
Si ricollega forse a questo la tradizione odierna e più recente per cui i bambini, travestiti da streghe, zombie, fantasmi e vampiri, bussano alla porta urlando con tono minaccioso: "Dolcetto o scherzetto?" ("Trick or treat" nella versione inglese). Per allontanare la sfortuna, inoltre, è necessario bussare a 13 porte diverse.
I'll translate it for your information:
The Celts did not fear their dead and would leave some food on the table for them as a sign of hospitality when the dead would come to visit them. Hence the tradition of the trick-or treating.
ALso, the Celts did not believe in demons, but in fairies and elves. These creatures were believed to be dangerous. Fairies were thought to be resentful towards humans, while elves were dangerous because the big differences existing between them and humans. Accoding to the legend, on Samhain's night, these creatures would usually play bad tricks to people and this lead to the origin of many terrifying tales still told today.
This is thought to be the reason why children, dressed up like witches, zombies, ghosts and vampires, go knocking to their neighbours' door threateningly shouting "Trick or treat?". It is also ncessary to knock 13 different doors. End of translation.
On the Italian page it's also mentioned the fact that the Celts' calendar was a circular one, for which Samhain night did not belong either to the old year or to the new year. So it was a special night where the boundary between the world of the living and the world of the dead (Tir na n'Og) was much thinner and the living could have access to it (???!!! exclamations my myself).
I found the Celts' concept of circular time and their not being afriad of the dead also in another web page (< http://www.irishabroad.com/ireland/irish-mythology/samhain.asp>), but I find hard to believe that the living can gain access to the world of the dead on this night. I'd say the opposite makes more sense. Sandypas - 31 October 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sandypas ( talk • contribs) 13:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The opening sentence under te topic Halloween states that it is "...an international holiday celebrated..." . However, although many countries may observe the traditions of the occassion of the day (both old and new), but i do not believe it to be an accepted "holiday" in the UK (bank, public, religeous, or otherwise), or in fact in most countries. it may be a USA observence. 213.163.197.27 ( talk) 14:13, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Happy hallowe'en!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.117.123.143 ( talk) 18:35, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm a Canadian and I was in Manila earlier this month and stores had lots of Halloween decorations, candy, and costumes. Do many people celebrate Halloween in the Philippines, and how widely celebrated is it there? Who brought this celebration to the Philippines and when? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.162.158.16 ( talk) 21:13, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The holiday was brought to North America by Irish immigrants leaving the famine in the 1850s. No other group brought it to NA as stated. 22:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thats a ridiculous assessment. Of course, English, Scottish and Welsh immigrants would have take Halloween traditions to the US long before 1850. Kentish 1 Nov 08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.26.241.6 ( talk) 12:46, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Actually, recently n my HIST 4360 (Ghosts, Myths, and Legends) class we learned that there are many traditions, customs, and aspects brought to the New World by non-Irish settlers. Someone should do more research on this and add it to the article as it would give a better background on Halloween as we know it and how it evolved throughout time. Also there should be mention that during the Victorian era Halloween, matchmaking was an important aspect of the holiday during this time period. http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~bannatyn/articles.html#victorian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mink84 ( talk • contribs) 05:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
The origins, and how it came to North America, and the eventual spread all over the world would surely be of considerable note. The celebration went from "Ireland-> America-> World" in that order. Surely that's notable. Other additions from various cultures should indeed be included in the article. Purple Arrow ( talk) 12:19, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
The point surely is that it's disputed that the festival came from Ireland in the first place. It appears apparent that whilst CELTIC (Not Irish) origins are strong, the is also heavy influence from other cultures... including both Catholic and Protestant churches. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.107.234.2 ( talk) 02:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
The case that Haloween came from Ireland is very uncertain - it's certaintly not celebrated in Ireland in anything like the way that it's celebrated in the US. In fact a lot of the Irish believe it's a very ungodly event that should be resisted. The academic sources are not clear on this one and the debate needs to be opened. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.107.234.2 ( talk) 01:16, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
A more accurate line would be that British immigrants brought Halloween to the USA or perhaps immigrants from the British Isles. Kentish 1 Nov 08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.26.241.6 ( talk) 12:44, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
(Just remember some handy hints to stop eggers. 1: Give them candy 2: If you don't have candy get a high powered water gun and sprey them, this keeps most away 3: get a house with a really long driveway!!!)
The fact that Halloween today is far more popular in US than in Ireland and that actually a lot of the Irish believe it's a very ungodly event that should be resisted, does not really prove anything about the origins. In fact, the Celts were pagans, whereas Irish today are Catholic, hence the resistance to celebrate Halloween in a pagan-like fashion. To me it all makes perfect sense. I'm Italian but I live in Dublin and since last weekend there's been a lot gogin on. Tonight there will be the annual Halloween city parade and dressed up parties in several clubs. Sandra - 31 October 2008
The article seems to allude to the fact that the church as a whole is not worried about Halloween because of a single exorcist, who is most certainly not the church spokesperson. This section should be revised to be more objective and not try to identify a position without credible evidence. 142.221.110.4 ( talk) 00:34, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I find it ironic that the article states "In fact, the Roman Catholic Church sees Halloween as having a Christian connection." Since the holiday was established by the Roman Catholic Church why should it not be considered having a Christian connection.
Although the article states that Halloween is actually Samhain, that is not supported by facts. Some of the traditional customs of celebration of Halloween are certainly derived from Samhein, but to say that the holiday is Samhain carried forward is misleading. First off, the article states that Samhain was celebrated on October 31. Wikipedia's own article on Samhain (which also contradicts itself) ways that it was celebrated on November first, then goes on to say it was celebrated at the new moon nearest the autumnal equinox (which would give it a date which is not fixed on our solar calendar).
Furthermore, when the date for All Saints Day was set to November 1 in the 8th century, the holiday was only celebrated in Rome. Samhain was not celebrated in Rome.
References for the Catholic Church's stance on Halloween include:
"The Pagan Origins of Halloween:
Despite concerns among some Christians in recent years about the "pagan origins" of Halloween, there really are none. The first attempts to show some connection between the vigil of All Saints and the Celtic harvest festival of Samhain came over a thousand years after All Saints Day became a universal feast, and there's no evidence whatsoever that Gregory III or Gregory IV was even aware of Samhain."
and [4]
"The Rev. James B. Sullivan is the priest at Holy Trinity Roman Catholic Church in Fort Lee, NJ: He said: "My basic concern is the loss of the religious significance and the emphasis that is placed on the 'spookiness' of the holiday celebration...It's unfortunate that honoring our beloved departed and saints has been twisted into the celebration of Halloween." He is probably concerned about lack of attention to All Saints' Day and All Souls' Day by the public ." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.32.16 ( talk) 15:49, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
A few kids asking their neighbours for lollies doesn't mean we celebrate Halloween.
More people here celebrate Eid ul-Fitr, do we need to say Australia celebrates Eid ul-Fitr? The Muss ( talk) 02:01, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I take exception with your statement that:
"Halloween celebrations in England were popularised in the late 20th century under the pressure of American cultural influence..."
First, it smacks of modern anti-Americanism. Also, it raises the question as to why those very countries that protest such culteral influences are the very ones who opt to adopt said culture so strongly.
Second, your suggestion that any culture exerts "pressure" is by definition based on you opionion, and not fact. I note that you provide no source. Does a diamond pressure anyone to dig it up?
You note that Autralia is under this "pressure" from 'The Simnpsons" TV program, yet state that they have not succumbed to the same pressure that England has. Are Austrailians immune, then, down under? Indeed, the very (small) Australian newspaper you cite states clearly that those who have adopted Halloween are looking for an "excuse for a party." Accordingly could it be that the invincible force of North American television is no more than an Australian urge to clebrate something in October? Do you honestly contend that a few annual episodes of an American televsion show wield such culteral influence? And, if it could, would the pressure best be called 'American culture,' or rather the human desire to find amusement in sit-coms, and Halloween?
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Free322001 (
talk •
contribs) 02:59, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
As I understand it, this year (2008), Hallowe'en was actually on 1st Nov. The reason is that Hallowe'en is defined as the day before All Saints Day, which in turn is the day before All Souls Day. BUT, All Souls Day cannot fall on a Sunday. Therefore, in 2008, Sunday was All Saints, Monday is All Souls, and Saturday 1st was Hallowe'en, rather than the usual 31st Oct. Of course, most people celebrate on 31st, or take advantage and do both! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.171.29 ( talk) 01:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
I have to disagree with you. I am from Italy and as far as I know, all my life All Saints' Day has been on 1st November and All Souls' Day (which we call il Giorno dei Morti = the Day of the Dead) has always been on the 2nd November, regardless of the day of the week it falls. The 1st November is always a Holy Day as well as a day off work. The Italian entry in Wikipedia for Ognissanti (all saints' day) also states that it is always on 1st November. This might provide a useful insight on All Saints' Day celebrations in Italy: < http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/recipes/view.cfm?id=1379> Sandra
It would be good to know what the primary sources are that document the link between Samhain and Halloween. A sort of short overview of what we know and how we know it. A previous request for such sources has been archived, Talk:Halloween/Archive_12#Dispute, without ever having been answered.
Such an overview would include some descriptions of the earliest Halloween celebrations to have been documented. My dictionary gives the earliest use of the name Halloween as the 16th century. What was the holiday called before the 16th century? How was it celebrated? How do we know?
Rwflammang ( talk) 11:53, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
for the record!
Halloween dates back before ireland, to the Celts, who lived 2,000 years ago in the area that is now Ireland, the United Kingdom, and northern France, celebrated their new year on November 1. This day marked the end of summer and the harvest and the beginning of the dark, cold winter, a time of year that was often associated with human death. Celts believed that on the night before the new year, the boundary between the worlds of the living and the dead became blurred. On the night of October 31, they celebrated Samhain, when it was believed that the ghosts of the dead returned to earth.
-note- the catholics adopted this festival because it closely followed their holy-day of "all souls day" -note-
In addition to causing trouble and damaging crops, Celts thought that the presence of the otherworldly spirits made it easier for the Druids, or Celtic priests, to make predictions about the future. For a people entirely dependent on the volatile natural world, these prophecies were an important source of comfort and direction during the long, dark winter.
To commemorate the event, Druids built huge sacred bonfires, where the people gathered to burn crops and animals as sacrifices to the Celtic deities.
During the celebration, the Celts wore costumes, typically consisting of animal heads and skins, and attempted to tell each other's fortunes. When the celebration was over, they re-lit their hearth fires, which they had extinguished earlier that evening, from the sacred bonfire to help protect them during the coming winter.
By A.D. 43, Romans had conquered the majority of Celtic territory. In the course of the four hundred years that they ruled the Celtic lands, two festivals of Roman origin were combined with the traditional Celtic celebration of Samhain.
Video: The haunting History of All Hallow's Eve (Halloween). Video: Timothy Dickinson tells the intriguing tale of why we celebrate Halloween, and it's evolution from Samhain, an ancient Celtic Harvest Festival.
The first was Feralia, a day in late October when the Romans traditionally commemorated the passing of the dead. The second was a day to honor Pomona, the Roman goddess of fruit and trees. The symbol of Pomona is the apple and the incorporation of this celebration into Samhain probably explains the tradition of "bobbing" for apples that is practiced today on Halloween.
By the 800s, the influence of Christianity had spread into Celtic lands. In the seventh century, Pope Boniface IV designated November 1 All Saints' Day, a time to honor saints and martyrs. It is widely believed today that the pope was attempting to replace the Celtic festival of the dead with a related, but church-sanctioned holiday. The celebration was also called All-hallows or All-hallowmas (from Middle English Alholowmesse meaning All Saints' Day) and the night before it, the night of Samhain, began to be called All-hallows Eve and, eventually, Halloween. Even later, in A.D. 1000, the church would make November 2 All Souls' Day, a day to honor the dead. It was celebrated similarly to Samhain, with big bonfires, parades, and dressing up in costumes as saints, angels, and devils. Together, the three celebrations, the eve of All Saints', All Saints', and All Souls', were called Hallowmas. for the record, the word Halloween is a latin based word from the later roman or (old English) cathlic. Ween - meaning to think, and hallo - meaning holy. Originally it was called Hallows'eve which would be translated: "the day before all think holy" day. all think holy day is "all saints day."
. . .
...references: history.com/minisites/halloween/viewpage?pageid=713
I propose that a bot be invited to archive this page periodically. Is there consensus?-- otherlleft ( talk) 01:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
This header was presumably added by an editor suggesting that this action be taken. I have added this comment so that it can be archived at a suitable time.-- otherlleft ( talk) 16:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
To all those interested in bring Halloween back up to GA class (and more), there is a discussion going on right here. Any and all comments are welcome! RockManQ (talk) 18:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
“Elements of the customs connected with Halloween can be traced to a Druid [ancient Celtic priesthood] ceremony in pre-Christian times. The Celts had festivals for two major gods—a sun god and a god of the dead . . . , whose festival was held on November 1, the beginning of the Celtic New Year. The festival of the dead was gradually incorporated into Christian ritual.”
In many cultures a single event, Festival of the Dead, lasting up to 3 days, was held at the end of October and beginning of November; examples include the Peruvians, the Hindus, the Pacific Islanders, the people of the Tonga Islands, the Australians, the ancient Persians, the ancient Egyptians, the Japanese, ancient Romans, and the northern nations of Europe. see Festival of the Dead. Ayamarca, (November) in the incas languages mean Festival of the Dead.
The 17th day Heshvan (Bul) which is the second the month of ancient Jewish secular year. Genesis 7:11 - The demons dematerialized when the Flood came. Genesis 6:1-4; for Jude 6. - The Nephilim hybrid the offspring of the demons drowned. Genesis 6:4. This corresponds to the October-November period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.60.200 ( talk) 09:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
"Other western countries embraced the holiday in the late twentieth century. Halloween is celebrated in several countries of the Western world, most commonly in the United States, Canada, Ireland, Puerto Rico, Japan, and the United Kingdom."
--What makes these countries more significant on Halloween than other countries? I'm sure that other countries celebrate the night as well. And I don't see any references stating that these particular countries more commonly celebrate Halloween than the rest of the world. Unless I see some specific references, I am pulling that particular sentence out of the article.
Loghead1 ( talk) 17:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know of any good sources about black cats and their association with Halloween?-- otherl left No, really, other way . . . 14:33, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
I removed the Music section of the article because it contained a number of errors, was un-sourced, and was not in any way cyclopedic. Perhaps a sourced comment about halloween music could be added along with comments about haunted houses or costume sales? MorbidAnatomy ( talk) 21:22, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Where is the Halloween celebrated? In Britain? Or also in other places? The first sentence should be complemented. (I am Hungarian and for me it's not evident where people celebrate Halloween.) -- Szipucsu ( talk) 18:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
You carve a pumpkin to get a Jack-o-lantern. I propose changing it. Logrolls ( talk) 16:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
There are no other poems on this page, and it seems pointless if no other poems are included. 64.45.255.67 ( talk) 13:43, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Should'nt you put in the superstitions about halloween? I'm just curious because i've heard of legends and superstious practices on halloween like the following:
In was said that when Halloween comes spirits and demons come and haunt the earth for just one night. It somewhat true. In anciet times in England people thought that Halloween was a time of evil(not true). Halloween is when people dress as something scary and get candy. Well in 1700s people worship the goddess of night is Nyx.
Jack o lanterns was not just a pumpkin with a face on it. In 1723 people who called theirselves Monks Would use this to light their way through cemetries, except they didn't use pumpkins. They use real human skulls(talk about getting ahot head).Another myth said that —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lisababie90210 ( talk • contribs) 14:13, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
In the UNICEF section, it says "In 2006, UNICEF discontinued their Halloween collection boxes in parts of the world" but the footnote-link points to a Canadian only article. Instead of saying "part of the world" and leaving it vague, could we instead put "Canada"?
Thanks, WesT
P.S. I'd gladly be a registered user, but we are blocked from so many sites here at work that it'd probably only work 'til they block yet another one. WT —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.143.89.245 ( talk) 20:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
I deleted the following as questionable in context and implication:
Celtic Christians may have Samhain services that focus on the cultural aspects of the holiday, in the belief that many ancient Celtic customs are "incompatible with the new Christian religion. Christianity embraced the Celtic notions of family, community, the bond among all people, and respect for the dead. Throughout the centuries, pagan and Christian beliefs intertwine in a gallimaufry (hodgepodge) of celebrations from October 31 through November 5, all of which appear both to challenge the ascendancy of the dark and to revel in its mystery."
This paragraph talks about "Celtic Christians" in the present tense, as if there might be a Celtic Christian church just round the corner. As far as I know, Celtic Christianity was a medieval thing, and there is still some debate as to what were its essential elements. It was a rival to Roman Christianity, and lost out in the end. If someone wants to address the merging of Christian and Celtic beliefs, please revisit this and rewrite it, and place it within the historical section of the article, rather than in the section concerning modern-day religious debate over Halloween. Eastcote ( talk) 03:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be much agreement about how to punctuate "All Hallows Eve." In the article it is currently written as "All Hallows' Eve" but, for example, an article from Catholic.org - http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=34744 - writes it without any punctuation at all. I suppose all we'd need to know is what's being indicated by the various apostrophes. Clearly "All Hallow's Eve" is wrong, since that would indicate possession - that the evening belongs to All Hallow (like "Old Joe's Day" would be a single day dedicated to one Old Joe). Similarly, I think that "All Hallows' Eve" is wrong, since it again indicates possession of the evening by every single Hallow that there is (again, "Old Joes' Day" suggests a day meant to celebrate everybody named Joe who is old, and which belongs to all of them in some manner.
It seems, then, that the only sensible punctuation is to have none at all: "All Hallows Eve." It is the evening where all of the hallows are considered, but it does not belong to them. "Old Joes Day" is a day for thinking of, and celebrating, all of the old people named Joe, but it does not belong to them. For comparison, think about Veterans Day (in the US). It is a day to think about, celebrate, and venerate, all veterans ... but it doesn't belong to any of them, and so it has no apostrophe.
Unless there is some convincing linguistic argument otherwise, I think this should be changed. References on the Internet are all over the place, so I don't think it's a matter of finding sources to support one side or the other, necessarily. I think it requires a logical, linguistic approach. Zminer ( talk) 20:44, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
I find this section to be very vague and full of generalizations. I know that there are varying views, but there are too many times where "many" or "most" are used with zero substantiation. Anybody up to tackling this to make it more concise? 142.221.110.4 ( talk) 02:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
←Islamicish view: I would like author of that section to have it reviewed and cleaned, using the term: "As Muslims, we have two celebrations" using the word "as" and "we" is not appropriate. since the reader is not looking for others opinions, but for information.
Muslims have different traditions that are not related to Islam, but to local customs even before conversion. As an exemple in Morocco, where chidren celebrate by stting fire in a vacant place, turning around it, after that going door to door collecting money, candy and sweets. which is similar to Halloween. this moroccan tradition dates away back in time to the Roman Era. similar traditions exist in the entire Muslim world. Please someone have this period developed. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Eljaafari (
talk •
contribs) 16:49, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
A concise, coherent, referenced section on an Islamic perspective of Halloween would be fine in my opinion. Anyone willing to write such an addition? Again - concise, coherent and referenced. Eastcote ( talk) 17:03, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
"I'm too old for the costume part, but not for the free candy." That's what you will be thinking after 12 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.152.161.174 ( talk) 18:29, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
For my part I'm thinking were can I get an Edward Woodward this late. Slatersteven ( talk) 18:48, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
In contrary to the english Version the Deutsch article on Halloween states the festival's origins to be unclear. I try to translate the part that refers to the Samhain Hypotheses:
The oldest and unsure appearence of the Samhain festival is in the Calender of Coligny from the first century A.D. The link to the realm of the dead evolves according to this interpretation from the killing of excess live cattle at the beginning of winter (to ensure the survival of the remaining stock). Allmost all folklorists and religion historians do not support the Hypothesis of Continuity (celtic Tradition → Halloween tradition). The connection between Halloween and the realm of the dead seems to derive more probably from the following catholic holidays. Thus on All Saints' day is to remember all those who have -according to christian believe- acquired eternal live. On all souls's day 2nd November there should be prayers and good deeds (like giving Gifts to bagging children) to ease the pain of those suffering in the purgatory. Since Eire was one of the first countries in Europe to be christianized a unverified (by no source) direct continuity from pagan-celtic Rites is pretty improbable and rather likely connected to 19th century celtic folklorism.
↑ Whitely Stokes, Sanas Cormaic: Cormac’s glossary. Annotated and translated by John O’Donovan. Kalkutta 1868 ↑ Horst-Rudolf Köneke, Halloween Kelten – Revival, 2003 S.26 ↑ Vgl. zur Problematik religionsgeschichtlicher Ableitung aus dem Keltentum grundsätzlich Bernhard Maier, Die Religionen der Kelten. Götter - Mythen - Weltbild, 2. Aufl., München 2004, S. 174ff. ↑ "Was heute als typisch keltisch gilt, ist in vielen Fällen nur ein Produkt neuzeitlicher oder gar bereits antiker Keltenideologie", Bernhard Maier, Die Religionen der Kelten. Götter - Mythen - Weltbild, 2. Aufl., München 2004, S. 178, vgl. die Artikel Kelten - Rezeptionsgeschichte [2] und Irische Renaissance
On the other hand the Deutsch Halloween Article gives a long list of traditions from various european regions related to the beginning of the darker part of the year that resemble Halloween customs: building Lanterns, Children bagging, singing or alike to get gifts, driving of (the fear of the dark that was supposedly populated by) bad spirits, preparing food for the winter time, telling scary stories (while now spending lots of time together doing handicraft indoors).
Recent research has already discovered "Samhain the God of the dead" to be a product of pure speculation. It should be taken into consideration that there have been ancient natural religions over many generations under the strong influences of the romans, the migration of peoples and the christianization. Most traditional festivals have developed from a series of origins over a long period of time. Chances are that a single direct predecessor to Halloween did not exist.
-- Mediarion ( talk) 23:51, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
I* think I agree that Halloween cannot be directly traced to any one festival or religious observance. it is a conglomerate of numeropus traditions that have merdged into the hodspodge we have today. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:37, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
The term Halloween, originally spelled Hallowe’en, is shortened from All Hallow Even – e'en is a shortening of even, which is a shortening of evening. This is ultimately dervied from the Old English Eallra Hālgena ǣfen.[10] It is now known as All Saints' Day.
This is wrong. All Hallows is now called All Saints' Day (hallow means a holy person), but All Hallows Eve is the evening before, called Hallowe'en or, in a religious context, the Feast of All Souls. Nuttyskin ( talk) 16:55, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
A complicating factor may be distinction on when 'Halloween' was celebrated and what the holiday was called, was often blurred or varied by time and place. Perhaps due to my not being a linguist, it all seems quite confusing. – Whitehorse1 17:18, 2 November 2009 (UTC)"distinction between Halloween and All Souls' was by no means clear-cut, something underscored by the fact that Halloweve [or Hallowtide] or Hollantide could be celebrated anywhere between 31 October and 2 November" (Rogers)
"diversity of practices associated with Halloween is reflected in the variety of words by which the holiday was known. In the lengthy testimony submitted to the National Folklore Commission in Ireland [we] find that Halloween was often called Hollantide or All Holland [or] Halleve". (Rogers)
There should be a section on the history and reason behind how the tradition of dressing up in costumes began.
On Halloween the Celtic Irish believed that all barriers between the living and the dead were broken. During this night the recently deceased ancestors had a chance to encapsulate a living body and have an afterlife. Fearing for their souls, the Celts would put out all the lights in their houses, and dress up in ghoulish costumes, and reek havoc around town to scare off the spirits. As years gone by spirit possession became less popular, but people continued to dress up as witches, goblins, and demons for the ceremonial tradition.
In the 1840’s the famous potato famine struck Ireland. Many Irish families fled in search of refuge and ended up in America. This is when the ceremony of dressing up on Halloween was brought to America.
Today people all over the world continues to dress up in costumes on Halloween. Currently the tradition of dressing up as goblins expanded to dressing up as any other character, other than your self. Many believe that dressing up is a tribute to the devil or for a demonic ceremony, however the opposite is true. It is used to scare off demons and to celebrate the saints.
Natalienguyen621 ( talk) 03:01, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Artical on Halloween in Ireland refers to turnips being used to adorn houses. More correctly these vegetables were mostly larger swedes which were commonly called turnips locally for whatever reason!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.2.177.187 ( talk)
Halloween was a good article over two years ago but has since been delisted. I would like to set a goal of not only returning it to that status, but getting it featured for Halloween of 2009. What will this take? Let's keep the discussion in one thread for the moment so the historians will be able to more easily track the progress of this momentous task! :-P-- otherlleft ( talk) 16:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Sounds good. I did a very brief look over and this is was I found:
Granted, this was just a basic lookover, but I'd certainly be willing to help, when possible. I look forward to working on this and good luck! RockManQ (talk) 17:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Wow...that's long. RockManQ (talk) 18:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Warning: a lot of people feel invested in this article. Previous edit wars were about the perils Halloween presents to modern-day Christians; whether the Celtic festival of Samhain was a new year festival; and whether the Pope moved All Saints Day to November 1 to co-opt the celebration of Samhain. Another thing to watch out for is relying on error-ridden popular histories of Halloween as sources, and the Web is littered with those. Look for scholarly works that use primary sources, most of which can be found in books, not on the Web. — Walloon ( talk) 23:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I've read the article just before it was delisted and the structure seems much better than it is today, though it is beset by the problems mentioned above regarding unreferenced statements in particular. (I also note it was delisted very soon after I made my original edits which I hope was just coincidence;). The segmentation into sub-articles about the various countries gives the whole thing a scrappy "Did you know?" feel - like a meandering trivia section. We might be better to go back to the GA version just after the classification and start from there. We could then agree what material should be added back in and how; and come up with some criteria for inclusion and reference standards. Sarah777 ( talk) 08:37, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
"The colours black and orange have become associated with the celebrations, perhaps because of the darkness of night and the colour of fire or of pumpkins, and maybe because of the vivid contrast this present for merchandising."
"present" should be "presents" but I am too lazy to make an account so I am mentioning it here so some lofty registered user can make the fix. --
76.102.71.155 (
talk) 00:35, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that this article slants a little too much towards the Irish influences in the cultural expansion of the festival of Halloween to America and beyond. The festival although celtic in origin has been celebrated throughout these islands and pre-dates all the countries. Still the festival that became Halloween in America has other influences and
The festival started well before the Irish famine and is noted in 1820, moreover every group (not just Irish, but Scottish, English, Welsh as well as German and Mexicans and Spanish) had an occult tradition that was incorporated into the tradition of Halloween. Also the Scottish and Irish and German influences in Appalachia are huge as cited in. Halloween: An American Holiday, an American History By Lesley Pratt Bannatyne
All saints day immigrated to America as an Irish and Scottish festival and evolved into a large scale festival by the early 20th century. Halloween: From Pagan Ritual to Party Night By Nicholas Rogers
Halloween traditions were taken by the Scots and Irish to America The Encyclopaedia Americana Volume 13 by Grolier Incorporated
The custom we celebrate in North America has its origins in the lands of Celtic Ireland, Britain…halloween traditions were brought to America by the English, Irish and Scottish. Halloween By Robert A. McCracken, Diana Colquhoun
I will edit accordingly if no objections Old man of the wood ( talk) 15:04, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I see what you’re trying to say about All Saints Day being perceived by protestant communities in Scotland (and therefore by association in Ireland too) as being phased out as I dare to say it by them as “popish” saint worship. However this is not and was not the case. The practice of the tradition of Halloween was encouraged as being an Ulster-Scottish and Scottish tradition. In fact the Scots Protestants clung to Halloween in Scotland as a cultural identifier and in Ulster as seen in an accounts bellow;
From 1770-1840; …The observance of Halloween is a distinguishing characteristic of the Ulster-Scots. Feasting and celebration was considered appropriate as harvest had been gathered in and cattle had returned from summer grazing… The shaping of Ulster Presbyterian belief and practice, 1770-1840 By Andrew R. Holmes.
…Halloween in Northern Ireland has English, Irish and Scottish elements in a creative amalgam of customs that form a unique celebration…
The hallowed eve: dimensions of culture in a calendar festival in Northern Ireland By Jack Santino
And here in the following publication;
…In 1799 a play entitled a “Scottish Spectacle” in the protestant borders was commissioned with Halloween themes to add atmosphere of otherworldliness. Influenced by the publication of the Burns poem “Halloween” which was inspired by the act of union in 1707 as many Scots feared a loss of cultural identity. Burns set to boister Scottish identity and pride with a poem in 1786 detailing the Scottish traditions of Halloween…
…By 1788 American booksellers had the book…and was read especially passionately by ex-patriot Scots in America and Canada where his poetry came to stand for Scotland before the act of union. The Scottishness of Halloween…on both sides of the atlantic inspired many poems....
Even a tale called “The Tale of The Ferry House: A Scottish Tale of Halloween” by John Galt published in 1834, so the Halloween culture and significance is a part of Scottish culture protestant or otherwise and well into the 19th century.
A Halloween Reader: Poems, Play and stories of Halloween Past. By Leslie Pratt Bannatyne.
The following quote will be of interest and relevant to this discussion in America from the 18th century;
…The southern states were predominantly settled by the Scots-Irish (themselves who are protestant) and the English (who are protestant) and these traditions influenced the holiday of Halloween in America....
…The English shared a common celtic-folk heritage as their neighbours in the British isles…
More strikingly that;
…The culture of Voudon or Voodoo was influential in the formation of the modern holiday in the south.
As well as the Scottish, Irish, Scots-irish and German protestant influences to the modern Halloween tradition…
So Halloween according to Bannatyne does not originate from an exclusively Catholic Irish tradition, the American festival changed and adapted due to various Catholic, Irish Catholic, Scots-Irish protestant, Scots, English protestant, German protestant traditions and those of African Vudon (voodoo) influences. Just like America it was a melting pot of ideas that formed the modern holiday.
Or this one;
Halloween is not time for division in sectarian politics, and it was celebrated to bring groups together. In Canada the Scots societies observed Halloween with annual concerts and celebrated their Scottishness in the festival….(no doubt on the back of the Burns poem in 1786).
…Irish men and women and the persistent numbers of Scots as well ensured the festival would serve as a marker for ethnic identity…
…In 1864 trouble faired as the Orange order in Canada celebrated the holiday (again another protestant fraternal organisation in north America celebrated the festival of Halloween in 1860s)…
Halloween from Pagan Ritual To Party Night by Nicholas Rodgers. Ch 3. Coming over; Halloween in north America
The Scots and English were not culturally bereft of a Halloween tradition because they are protestant, they had their own folk culture rooted in the celtic practices of the British Isles that were pagan in origin and part of the Halloween tradition in writing and publication innthe 18th and 19th centuries and the church could never fully stamp them out. Protestants embraced the holiday and exported it to the states before the great Famine or Scottish Highland Famine. That saw 2 million irish and 1.7 million scots emigrate due to hunger. I think you will have to have some printed references to back up your claim the Irish Catholics are the sole contributors to the American Halloween tradition and culture. But it appears that such a view is contested. Regards.
Of the forest (
talk) 23:20, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
modern halloween costumes are also very untraditional with carachters from television and movies costume possibilities are endless in our time, with all the stores and boutiques, you can find Halloween costumes almost anywhere. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.7.104.222 ( talk) 11:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
To return to the root of the argument, there is too much of an Irish slant on this article. Celtic new year traditions were not unique to Ireland - for example, coverage of the ancient Manx festival "Hop tu naa" is missing. The reference cited as [4] seems to refer to an article that doesn't actually agree that Halloween was brought over by Irish immigrants as cited - it notes Irish immigration as a factor, but also acknowledges other influences that IMHO should be given equal credence if you're going to use it as a reference.
There's also some questionable Irishness about "Jack O'Lantern" which authoritative sources seem to disagree with - the online etymology dictionary, for example states "Jack o'lantern 1663, a local name for a Will-o-the-wisp (L. ignis fatuus), mainly attested in East Anglia but also in southwestern England. The extension to carved pumpkins is 1837, Amer.Eng.". The OxforD Dictionary of Phrase and fable (2006) says "jack-o'lantern originally a man with a lantern, a night watchman; from this, an ignis fatuus or will-o-the-wisp. The term in these senses is recorded from the 17th century. From the mid 19th century, jack-o'-lantern has also been used (originally in the US) for a lantern made from a hollowed-out pumpkin or turnip in which holes are cut to represent facial features, typically made at Halloween."
The association with the colloquial name for the lantern carrier/will-o-the-wisp is much more plausible than the Irish citation, which sounds like a myth made up to justify the name. IMHO, the article isn't well-referenced or neutral enough to be considered a good article at the moment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.80.176 ( talk) 18:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused by your last sentence. To clarify, I have two specific problems that I think need to be looked at - the reference for [4] points to an article that does not specifically cite Halloween as a solely Irish tradition (which it isn't - there are several sources for the modern Halloween festival), and the content of the article identifies "jack o'lantern" specifically with an apocryphal "Oirish" myth, which authoritative sources do not. These need to be looked at, as there's an odd Irish slant to the article with them in. The article could be improved with links to materials on "Hop tu naa" and other Halloween traditions too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.80.176 ( talk • contribs) 13:37, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Rather than everything being pushed towards what you folks have termed "hiberno-centric" I see instead folks chiming in on this and MANY other articles that have any whiff of "Irish" in them and very cavalierly and often negatively (for ex.see ex. Eastcote above) stating things such as "article tends to rely a bit too much on pop culture references" but adds NO substantive editorial content to support that claim but then further states "I'll see if I can find more SCHOLARLY references for the article.." In other words hey, you guys are right this "Irish" stuff is not documented/supported the way WE like, and we don't like what believe to be "POP references" to validate Halloween's "Irishness" so I/we'll go support his/her/your/others OPINION with what we'll call "scholary" input and NEGATE the POP. There is no statement of bringing truth or clarity to the article, rather to find data that supports AND pushes POV. What a bunch of HYPOCRISY. And the veiled and not always subtle condescension/racist tone is not lost on us readers. Oh and btw writer anon above says " what do you call an American of Scottish American? Check out Eastcore's profile. The term is Scotch-Irish. I recommend you folks watch the POV pushing and support the article accordingly.
76.101.152.163 (
talk) 22:12, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Really Scotch-Irish Eastcote? Your goal is ONLY to have more "reliable" and "preferred" "scholarly" references for the article? RUBBISH. Your FIRST editorial line above states "I AGREE THAT THE ARTICLE IS RATHER HIBERNO-CENTRIC." You have NO substantive POINT upon which to base this SCHOLARLY and clearly DOCUMENTED "THOUGHT", rather you just happen to believe upon reading, happen to feel that this article has a hiberno-centricity to it and because you believe and feel SO STRONGLY about the inaccuracy of this theme (and you are such a PURIST for truth) that you're going to go out and FIND "reliable" and "preferred" sources to "FIX" the article??--without any of us expecting as to just what direction or theme these corrections might take, right? Hmmm might they perhaps look to remove the perceived hiberno-centric POV? Ok Eastcote--good luck with that. It is FASCINATING that you/and others would not only think this way, no only STATE these thoughts PUBLICLY! but then ATTEMPT to DENY your CONTEMPT under the veil of article "purity". Try, just try for a minute to NOT immediately write....sit back, breathe deep and really try to WAKE UP to your/and other's BLIND BIAS and CONDESCENSION...............................................and try let it go. :) 76.101.152.163 ( talk) 21:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
The claim that Halloween resurgence in England and Wales is due to Hollywood might be true, I do not know. This is not the case in Scotland. I was born in 1951 and Halloween was a very important night to children then as now. Guisers were often asked to sing a song or recite a poem before being given a treat. The neep (turnip) lanterns were replaced in the American colonies by pumpkins, probably due to the ease in carving or availability. The Irish aspect to the article seems to be grossly exagerrated. Was it actually Celtic in the first place? The Britons who inhabited these isles were not Celts. Who originally wrote this? I would suggest that the article needs a major re-appraisal. Acorn897 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC).
"The day is connected with the colours black adn orange" should be changed to 'In the US'. In the UK it's been black, and black alone, historically for centuries. 86.150.103.168 ( talk) 13:37, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
We seem to have a problem with describing Samhain as Celtic/Gaelic. To start off, I'll make a couple of points. Firstly, the Gaels had a culture and language that was Celtic. Secondly, although similar festivals were held by other Celtic peoples, only the Gaels called it Samhain. Therefore, describing Samhain as Celtic isn't wrong, but it's misleading.
The current wording is this:
Historian Nicholas Rogers, exploring the origins of Halloween, notes that while "[s]ome folklorists have detected its origins in the Roman feast of Pomona, the goddess of fruits and seeds, or in the festival of the dead called Parentalia, [it is] more typically [l]inked to the celtic festival of Samhain or Samuin
My proposed wording is this (which got reverted):
Historian Nicholas Rogers, exploring the origins of Halloween, notes that while "some folklorists have detected its origins in the Roman feast of Pomona (the goddess of fruits and seeds) or in the festival of the dead called Parentalia", it is more often linked to a Celtic festival. This was called Samhain (pronounced sow-an or sow-in) by the Gaels of Ireland and Scotland.
The full quote neglects to mention that it was called Samhain only by the Gaels – Wikipedia allows us to do that, since we know that it's an outright fact. I find it shocking that this article makes no mention of the Gaels whatsoever. ~Asarlaí 04:09, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
The pronunciation fo the Welsh is wrong. Calan Gaeaf is pronounced "Kálan Gái av" or "Kálan Gái-a". Not "Kalan Geyf" as now shown.
David —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
80.246.32.33 (
talk) 09:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
The {{ OnThisDay}} banner above has: "A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day... section on [six successive years]". Thing is, no facts from this article were ever featured on the Main Page. From other linked or even daughter articles, sure. But not this one. It's not an anniversary of an event per se either. The only reference to this article the linked years have is a passing mention of Oct 31 as a day on which Halloween—among other festivals occurs, before going on to actually include facts, from different articles.
I noticed it when implementing the {{articlehistory}} template, and so held off from incorporating those OnThisDay items into it. I haven't strong views on this. My suggestion is: we simply remove the OnThisDay template/info, as there haven't really been any facts included on the main page. Opinions? – Whitehorse1 18:51, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
"Many christians" appears awkwardly at the top of these paragraphs. Also, "... far from being satanic (sic) in origin or practice..." is, if not POV, kinda wonky. The contrasting view is introduced prematurely and, perhaps, negatively. Revised the paragraph order a bit to compensate. DigitalHoodoo ( talk) 22:38, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Unless these are serving as a placeholder for something immediately forthcoming, they look like unsubstantiated clutter. DigitalHoodoo ( talk) 00:21, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Changed "festival" to "holiday" to make this article consistent with the usual wiki usage. Compare festival and holiday; the former focuses on a an arbitrary number of specific events (i.e. actual phenomena), whereas the latter refers to "official or unofficial observances of religious, national, or cultural significance, often accompanied by celebrations or festivities."
"Festival" remains in reference to Samhain, because the emphasis there is on a more specific set of ritualized observances.
Also changed "All Saints" to the full term "All Saints' Day", and changed one instance of "holy day" to "holiday". The new terms are equivalent ("holy day" is more colloquial and "All Saints" is abbreviated), and "holiday" seems preferred in the wikiworld; e.g. holy day redirects to holiday. DigitalHoodoo ( talk) 02:48, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
While this does mention other cultures, this article is too heavily US centric. The practice of Trick or Treat for example is very recent and extremely rare in Europe, despite Halloween being observed there for many centuries before the US. Guising or Gallowshuns has, however, been practiced for centuries in Scotland and Ireland, but is distinctly different from Trick or Treat.
Much of the celtic history is presented here as fact. It is sourced, but not from a very reliable source -- Celtic history is very much unproven, and remains little more than theory and opinion. It should not be presented as fact in this article (or indeed, anywhere). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.131.114 ( talk) 19:14, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
The Halloween page needs a section about the Mascot/Spirit of Halloween, Sam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheHallow1 ( talk • contribs) 03:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
I found an inappropriate edit in the History section so I reverted back to the previous version. I am new to Wikipedia editing so hopefully I made the correct move. Mssabinacazadd ( talk) 21:41, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
just sayin'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.49.104 ( talk) 13:24, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
I have changed the main image on this page to what, in my view, is a more traditional, representative image of a Jack-o'-lantern. Full disclosure: it's my photo, and I also carved the pumpkin. I'm just putting a note here to say that I didn't make the edit purely for selfish, parochial reasons - I also genuinely think mine has a much more "classic" look than the (very finely carved) one it replaced ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jack-o%27-Lantern_2003-10-31.jpg). It's also already the main image for the " Activities involving pumpkins" section of the Pumpkin page.
If anyone strongly disagrees with the above, please message me before reverting the edit to explain why, as a courtesy :) Lost Number ( talk) 12:38, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
...bring in $300-500 mil/yr and attract 400,000 customers?
Definitely inaccurate. I don't think people are averaging $1,000 each at haunted houses.
The 400k figure seems very low, unless only about 1 in 750 people in the U.S. hit the pumpkin patches.
-- 174.253.150.49 ( talk) 03:40, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to include a note in the Around The World section:
Although commercialism has caused Hallowe'en to be 'celebrated' in the UK, many people resent this as it is causing the local custom and practice of Bonfire Night (5 November) to be forgotten. Philwadey ( talk) 12:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC) phil
remove the historian's name from the first line of the Halloween page. Should not be a listed source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steuss ( talk • contribs) 19:51, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
As an English person, I do not think the term ' holiday' is appropraite for Halloween. It is not a holiday as far as I am aware in the US, and certainly not in the UK. We would call it a 'festival' I suppose. Is this an example of American English? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.104.56.25 ( talk) 13:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
I think it should become a wikipedia policy that 5 days before and 5 days after the day of halloween, the page should become semi-protected. Just food for thought -- Jab843 ( talk) 23:10, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
This article is about Halloween as it is traditionally observed in the West - meaning a specific holiday. This material didn't really belong here; I'd suggest creating a wholly new article if sources are available. For now, I've moved it to Halloween around the world under the "India" subheading. DigitalHoodoo ( talk) 19:59, 6 October 2010
This bit:
"Another popular trend is for women (and in some cases, men) to use Halloween as an excuse to wear sexy or revealing costumes, showing off more skin than would be socially acceptable otherwise."
Does not reflect a neutral point of view and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.199.122.189 ( talk) 20:47, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
This article when downloaded as a PDF or printed, produces 13 pages! A bit too spooky, eh?-- Tantusar ( talk) 01:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
The article says "In some parts of Scotland children still go guising. In this custom the child performs some sort of trick, i.e. sings a song or tells a ghost story, to earn their treats." The main article on trick or treating also mentions guising in Ireland. Its hallowe'en here right now, and the streets of Dublin are filling with kids going trick-or-treating, some of them are performing stories, poems, songs etc to get their treat. So the article should mention that children in Ireland still go guising too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.141.75.182 ( talk) 19:19, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
What historical and/or archaeological sources do we have that support the theory that Halloween goes back to customs and practices of ancient Druids and the Celts of the British Isles? No a single one, I would presume. What we have is some secondary literature. Wouldn't it be a question of honesty to stress the fact, that we know near to nothing about Celtic religion and customs and, therefore, cannot connect our modern day Halloween with ancient Druidic practices?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.131.255.52 ( talk) 07:58, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
No such Druidic connection is claimed in the article. The celebration of Halloween is, however, demonstrably Celtic and ancient. Much can be learnt from the oral lore, attested past traditions and present-day customs of the Celtic peoples (who are still here and not all 'ancient'!). What 'archeological' sources would you expect to find? What written 'historical' sources in an overwhelmingly oral culture? Do you claim 'we' know nothing about Samhain? And is, for instance, Frazer's 'The Golden Bough' [9] to be classed as 'secondary literature'? Ceartas 12:10, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
is elder than 1960. Basically, the claim that most alleged "ancient celtic" costumes and traditions are basically 19th century or younger, is just one of the basic xioms of modern and post WWII Volkskunde resp Folklre science. Bakulan ( talk) 14:52, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Proposed text “There is disagreement over a proposed Celtic origin for Halloween Nicholas Rogers, exploring the origins of Halloween, says that while "some folklorists have detected its origins in the Roman feast of Pomona, the goddess of fruits and seeds, or in the festival of the dead called Parentalia, it is more typically linked to the Celtic festival of Samhain, whose original spelling was Samuin (pronounced sow-an or sow-in)". [1]. Others (such as Bernhard Maier) disagree and say that Halloween is part of the 19th and 20th centuries Celtic revival and has no link to older Celtic festivals. This I thick covers all the bases and is fairly neutral but can have input from others. There may also be an argument for removing the text about samhain as it may not be linked to Halloween,. Slatersteven ( talk) 18:57, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
"There is disagreement over a proposed Celtic origin for Halloween. Some such as Nicholas Rogers say that while "some folklorists have detected its origins in the Roman feast of Pomona, the goddess of fruits and seeds, or in the festival of the dead called Parentalia, it is more typically linked to the Celtic festival of Samhain, whose original spelling was Samuin (pronounced sow-an or sow-in)". [1]. Others (such as Bernhard Maier) disagree and say that Halloween is part of the 19th and 20th centuries Celtic revival and has no link to older Celtic festivals." Slatersteven ( talk) 19:09, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
This now seems to be turning into an edit war. I will not revert any more today but woold like an admin to look into this. Slatersteven ( talk) 17:47, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
{{
neutrality}}
disputed tag at the top to make it clear that what's below is disputed among editors. –
Whitehorse1 20:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)Looks like POV pushing from Bakulan. On a sidenote, Maier's timing is out btw. The Bard of Scotland Robert Burns' poem Halloween (1785) records some of the Halloween observances in Scotland; Halloween Is thought to be a night when witches, devils, and other mischief-making beings are abroad on their baneful midnight errands; particularly those aerial people, the fairies, are said on that night to hold a grand anniversary HALLOWEEN KiwiJeff ( talk) 17:47, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Absolutely, thus i mentioned on a sidenote (Halloween rife in Scotland 18th century). I was initially referring what smacks of POV pushing from Bakulan, and subsequent vague comments. KiwiJeff ( talk) 18:17, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
be you could care to provide the full text of the passages? Slatersteven ( talk) 22:31, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
We have the same discussion in de:wp on the talk page of Halloween with Bakulan right now. Same book, same arguments. The author of the book he quotes (a respectable source, i would say) points out (i cannot read the book online, so i have to judge from the german quotes here), that there is absolutely no connection between H. and a festival Samhain, or anything celtic at all, and that this celtic reference is more romanticism of the 19th century. The translations are ok, but i wonder whats left out. Bakulan also refers to the history of Volkskunde, which after 1945 changed its views, because in Germany, Volkskunde was abused by the Nazis, and there are rightwing/esoteric traditions of inventing germanic traditions. Similar to the invention of celtic traditions in the 19th century inspired by Frazer/Golden Bough. So after 1945, Volkskunde saw its goal in showing, that these traditions were mostly fake. The bigger idea seems to be, that there is in no way any continuity between celts/celtic traditions, and anything we see today. So its a bit of german POV, and things like the Green Man or even existing german traditions similar to Halloween traditions (guising, lamps made of beets (?) instead of pumpkins, and so on, are being neglected/ignored.
The author of the book also regrets, that in (catholic) Austria, the good old All Hallows Day traditions get lost because of (modern) Halloween. We now have a discussion, because Bakulan wanted to erase other sources, like Frazer oder the "Handwörterbuch des deutschen Aberglaubens", which was written by swiss scholars in the 40ies and is an encyclopedia of superstition, and also claims celtic roots of All Hallows Day, and claims, the church moved that festival to the 1. of november because of these older heathen traditions. He also wants to erase the reference to the Encyclopedia Britannica, which also claims celtic roots of H (see there). So in my view, this is all part of a bigger discussion about 19th century views versus 21 century views in Volkskunde, but while Bakulan is not at all generally wrong, he/she is in no way a Halloween expert, quoting just one source that fits his view. But from his/her point of view, it is just obvious, that there CANNOT be a celtic tradition, because all these other references to germanic traditions were also invented/fake/abused. I asked him for other sources, that show that the view of H. is a consensus in Volkskunde, but Bakulan did not deliver, claiming in a arrogant way, that he/she studied Volkskunde, he/she is right, etc. Dunno if all this helps here, but as there seem to be very few german sources on Halloween, it would be also interesting for the german article if the dispute could be solved finally, and the question, whether H. has celtic roots, could be answered to everyones content, with respectable, modern, scientific sources one can then put in the article(s) as references (someone else on the talk page also claims that H. has no celtic roots, but in his case, its about a religious backround, he has a religious webpage claiming H. is a christian festival, and everything typical for H. has a christian backround). -- 93.232.148.120 ( talk) 01:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Maybe it is a semantic problem? No one states, that "Halloween", in a modern way, or a neoceltic way, was celebrated prior to, lets say, 1830. But the big dispute, I think, is about Frazer, who quotes "traditions" of "Halloween"/Samhain - a celtic festival celebrating summers end, winters beginning, with big fires, celebrating the return of the cattle to the villages, and which, according to Frazer (and other sources?) was (still) celebrated in the early middle ages around 800 . And which he also calls Halloween. He claims sources for that - christian synodes, which wrote about that, old, festival. And this festival included also the idea, that the souls of the dead were thought to return to the villages of the living, and it included wearing costumes to frighten away evil spirits. According to Frazer/Golden Bough (source is online [11]). And he also quotes similar festivals under slightly different names, like on the Isle of Man, which left traces until today. But of course, that festival was not called Halloween - until the church moved All Hallows Day (which was invented, I think, around 600/7700 ) from May to the first of november, because it wanted to include the older heathanish festival into something similar, new and christian. Thats why it was called Hallow E'en, according to Frazer. Now was Frazer totally wrong on this (he was a scientist, not a neopagan hippie freak) - or were the people wrong, that used his book, and others, to invent all this neoceltic stuff. And if he was wrong, what did he missinterpret? And were celtic traditions really totally erased after the christianization of Ireland? Difficult to imagine that, the process of christianization was a process, not a single event, were everyone stopped believing in their religion (whatever that was) one day, and went to church the next sunday, I would guess. So, what about Frazer? [12] -- 93.232.152.157 ( talk) 21:12, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Would it be possible to email some of the scientists quoted on this page, and to ask them, what they think of the arguments of the respective "opponent side"? Like Bettina Arnold, or Maier? What brought me to this whole Halloween topic/discussion, what raised my couriosity, and fascination also (and what really entertains me), is mostly the fact (besides that I generally enjoy Halloween), that we have reputable scientists on each side, claiming their view is "the truth", citing sources, etc. So each side claims to be right, but its all second-hand knowledge, it seems (or third-hand in our case here), and I cannot imagine, that this kind of dispute doesnt also happen at scientific congresses, in publications, at universities, and so on. Taking into account the (global) importance of the Halloween date, and the passion, with which this topic is being discussed here, I come to the conclusion, that we cannot fully solve the dispute here. And, I mean - its not our job, is it? Its beoming more and more OR, it seems, and there are people being paid for answering this kind of questions. They should discuss it among themselves, and then present their compromise to us. Just an idea by -- 93.232.176.236 ( talk) 17:12, 10 November 2010 (UTC) (if you do not find it helpful, just remove it)
I’m going to propose my compromise wording again and ask only for comments on that, do you agree or disagree with it. I will also suggest a compromised lead.
Body of article
"There is disagreement over a proposed Pagan origin for Halloween. Some such as Bernhard Maier say that Halloween is part of the 19th and 20th centuries’ Celtic revival and has no link to older Celtic festivals. Whilst others (for example Nicholas Rogers) Suggest a Celtic or Pagan continuation from the Roman feast of Pomona, the goddess of fruits and seeds, or in the festival of the dead called Parentalia, it is more typically linked to the Celtic festival of Samhain, whose original spelling was Samuin (pronounced sow-an or sow-in)". [1]. “
Lead
“it has been claimed that it has roots in the Celtic festival of Samhain, or other pagan festivals. However this is disputed and that it is based on the Celtic Revival in the 19th century around All Saints' Day.”
So is this an acceptable compromise.? Slatersteven ( talk) 17:05, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
I would suggest to collect wordings for each relevant, scientific position that has (had) impact on the discussion, including Frazer, Hörandner, Hutton, Rogers, so that each position is presented in one or two sentences, and put in context, with the most modern presented as the present stage of the discussion, and explaining also that dispute between German/European and Angloamerican views. But not to leave anything out - put it in context. By the way, thats what I suggested also for the german article. Or Slaterstevens compromise, but I think it's a liitle bit too short, compared to this disc. page with all the arguments. -- 93.232.143.187 ( talk) 17:33, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
OK so can we at least say that the new main text paragraph is acceptable, at least for now? Slatersteven ( talk) 19:52, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
This is leading to nothing. I suggest returning to Slaterstevens compromise wording, and expanding it a bit with 3, 4 more reputable/prominent pro/contra "celtic origin" voices, qouted with their names. Bakulan and Noctuus might word the "contra"-voices. --
93.232.143.187 (
talk) 22:21, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Here are a few sources. Current and reputable.
*"Samhain is a revival of the ancient Celtic holiday of that name. As many folklorists have noted, this Celtic holiday appears to be the origin of the modern Halloween." Ethnologies, Volume 20, Folklore Studies Association of Canada, 1998, pg. 131
Eastcote ( talk) 01:05, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Additional Quote: [15] According Stefan Moser, Director of the Keltenmuseum in Hallein any connection of celts and Halloween is a plain myth without any credibility. Bakulan ( talk) 07:26, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Eastcotes wording looks good to me. -- 93.232.176.236 ( talk) 10:11, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
The new compromise works for me, but thats a moot point I think. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:45, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
One thing that might be worth watching out for is confirmation bias. – Whitehorse1 13:37, 10 November 2010 (UTC)