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It was suggested that this article should be renamed Haliacmon. The vote is shown below:
The river is known as Aliákmon in English, not Aliakmonas (see for instance Britannica, the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, the Columbia Encyclopedia, the Houghton Mifflin Dictionary of Geography, the Hutchinson Encyclopedia and the Crystal Reference Encyclopedia). I'm moving the article back to where it was. -- ChrisO 10:40, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If we're really serious about using the most widely known English version, why not merge this article with Haliacmon? Why the need for such a dichotomy? Is it not the same river? The English-language encyclopaedias that feed websites like those regurgitated on Google are simply stuck in a time warp as far as Greek toponyms are concerned. They still use the katharevousa variants, despite katharevousa being abolished thirty years ago. You'd think Wikipedia would be more forward-thinking and nuanced than stuffy old Britannica. Obviously not.-- Theathenae 14:15, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OK, that's already the 4th time this page is moved today, let's give it a break and invite some others to give their opinion! Markussep 18:28, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I also go for Aliákmon, more common in English. Also, more natural to English rhythm. Alexander 007 19:06, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I was asked to take a look at this case and give my opinion. Frankly, I don't think it's a huge deal, especially since 1) both forms are mentioned 2) there are redirects 3) the forms are almost identical. I checked the English-language web sites of several Greek government ministries (unfortunately, they don't have a common suffix like gov.gr, so you can't check them all very easily), and found that both forms were being used, in about equal numbers. I suppose this could be a remnant of Katharevousa in administrative language, but if even the Greek government is 50/50, it seems as though the transition from Aliakmon -> Aliakmonas in English is not complete. So Aliakmon seems like a better choice. -- Macrakis 22:29, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I found another useful resource on this question - the US government's National Geospatial Intelligence Agency's geonames database (see http://gnswww.nga.mil/geonames/GNS/index.jsp ). Searching for Aliakmon, it returns "Aliákmon Potamós" (i.e. Aliákmon River) as the principal name, plus a string of variants. The GNS server looks like it could be quite a useful source for placenames and their variants. -- ChrisO 22:43, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The english language has not letter "á" !The article is Aliakmon Vergina 23:31, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC) (I moved this comment to the appropriate heading. -- Macrakis 22:29, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC))
What is the name of the English letter á in English?-- Theathenae 19:25, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think User:Vergina and User:Theathenae are suggesting that it can't be the English name if it has an accent. Two arguments against this: 1) foreign words often keep the accent in English; 2) it can be considered as useful additional information. For example, the publications of the Touring Club of Italy put accents on all placenames where they are not regular, even if they are not normally written. -- Macrakis 22:29, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There is no English letter á; use of it marks a term as a foreign loan word. (Compare Panama and Panamá.) If there is an English name for the river, it is Haliacmon; this is used by 19th and 20th century travellers who are writing only of modern times. (If there is none, the naming conventions probably put the article under the transliterated Demotic form, as current official usage in Greek.) Septentrionalis 7 July 2005 19:48 (UTC)
Can someone tell from which language did the loan word Aliákmon come from? The answer should be part of the wiki, if it stays named Aliákmon. If it's moved to Aliakmon or even better Haliacmon, á can remain to indicate pronounciation.
google test:
Aliákmon -wikipedia almost 6700 results
Aliakmon -wikipedia almost 6100 results
MATIA
10:39, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm guessing that it is n't directly from Greek, so I'm wondering from which language it came from. If it was from Katharevousa then according to the rules it would need to start with "Ha"- because of the "Ἁ". Some examples.
MATIA 23:27, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Haliacmon, son of Oceanus and Thetys, was a river god of Macedonia.
See
Hesiod
Theogony 341;
Strabo vii. p. 330.
Definition from
Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology by William Smith.
Theogony: (ll. 334-345) And Tethys bare to Ocean eddying rivers, Nilus, and Alpheus, and deep-swirling Eridanus, Strymon, and Meander, and the fair stream of Ister, and Phasis, and Rhesus, and the silver eddies of Achelous, Nessus, and Rhodius, Haliacmon, and Heptaporus, Granicus, and Aesepus, and holy Simois, and Peneus, and Hermus, and Caicus fair stream, and great Sangarius, Ladon, Parthenius, Euenus, Ardescus, and divine Scamander.
Strabo: The Haliacmon flows into the Thermaean Gulf. and some more mentions of the river.
I've searched with google un.org and I could only find references for Aliakmonas. MATIA 23:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
In 1911 encyclopedia "Emathia, the district between the Haliacmon (Bistritza) and Axius, was once called Paeonia". MATIA 23:30, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 09:47, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone give the reference for the Herodotus account?-- Bogande 20:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I found the reference and put it in the article. Bogande 14:43, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Can somebody explain why was sourced info about the slavic name of the river removed. Thanks. Jingby ( talk) 05:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I think this is usefull info and it is not unduly for an world encyclopaedia. For example the Bulgarian article is entirely under this name. In many articles about Greek and Bulgarian objects, they are mentioned with their Greek and respectivly Slavic names. This is a normal policy. We have also enough references. Regards. Jingby ( talk) 12:12, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Somebody has changed South Slavic to Bulgarian. I have fixed it. Jingiby ( talk) 15:14, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
It was suggested that this article should be renamed Haliacmon. The vote is shown below:
The river is known as Aliákmon in English, not Aliakmonas (see for instance Britannica, the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, the Columbia Encyclopedia, the Houghton Mifflin Dictionary of Geography, the Hutchinson Encyclopedia and the Crystal Reference Encyclopedia). I'm moving the article back to where it was. -- ChrisO 10:40, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If we're really serious about using the most widely known English version, why not merge this article with Haliacmon? Why the need for such a dichotomy? Is it not the same river? The English-language encyclopaedias that feed websites like those regurgitated on Google are simply stuck in a time warp as far as Greek toponyms are concerned. They still use the katharevousa variants, despite katharevousa being abolished thirty years ago. You'd think Wikipedia would be more forward-thinking and nuanced than stuffy old Britannica. Obviously not.-- Theathenae 14:15, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OK, that's already the 4th time this page is moved today, let's give it a break and invite some others to give their opinion! Markussep 18:28, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I also go for Aliákmon, more common in English. Also, more natural to English rhythm. Alexander 007 19:06, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I was asked to take a look at this case and give my opinion. Frankly, I don't think it's a huge deal, especially since 1) both forms are mentioned 2) there are redirects 3) the forms are almost identical. I checked the English-language web sites of several Greek government ministries (unfortunately, they don't have a common suffix like gov.gr, so you can't check them all very easily), and found that both forms were being used, in about equal numbers. I suppose this could be a remnant of Katharevousa in administrative language, but if even the Greek government is 50/50, it seems as though the transition from Aliakmon -> Aliakmonas in English is not complete. So Aliakmon seems like a better choice. -- Macrakis 22:29, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I found another useful resource on this question - the US government's National Geospatial Intelligence Agency's geonames database (see http://gnswww.nga.mil/geonames/GNS/index.jsp ). Searching for Aliakmon, it returns "Aliákmon Potamós" (i.e. Aliákmon River) as the principal name, plus a string of variants. The GNS server looks like it could be quite a useful source for placenames and their variants. -- ChrisO 22:43, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The english language has not letter "á" !The article is Aliakmon Vergina 23:31, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC) (I moved this comment to the appropriate heading. -- Macrakis 22:29, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC))
What is the name of the English letter á in English?-- Theathenae 19:25, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think User:Vergina and User:Theathenae are suggesting that it can't be the English name if it has an accent. Two arguments against this: 1) foreign words often keep the accent in English; 2) it can be considered as useful additional information. For example, the publications of the Touring Club of Italy put accents on all placenames where they are not regular, even if they are not normally written. -- Macrakis 22:29, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There is no English letter á; use of it marks a term as a foreign loan word. (Compare Panama and Panamá.) If there is an English name for the river, it is Haliacmon; this is used by 19th and 20th century travellers who are writing only of modern times. (If there is none, the naming conventions probably put the article under the transliterated Demotic form, as current official usage in Greek.) Septentrionalis 7 July 2005 19:48 (UTC)
Can someone tell from which language did the loan word Aliákmon come from? The answer should be part of the wiki, if it stays named Aliákmon. If it's moved to Aliakmon or even better Haliacmon, á can remain to indicate pronounciation.
google test:
Aliákmon -wikipedia almost 6700 results
Aliakmon -wikipedia almost 6100 results
MATIA
10:39, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm guessing that it is n't directly from Greek, so I'm wondering from which language it came from. If it was from Katharevousa then according to the rules it would need to start with "Ha"- because of the "Ἁ". Some examples.
MATIA 23:27, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Haliacmon, son of Oceanus and Thetys, was a river god of Macedonia.
See
Hesiod
Theogony 341;
Strabo vii. p. 330.
Definition from
Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology by William Smith.
Theogony: (ll. 334-345) And Tethys bare to Ocean eddying rivers, Nilus, and Alpheus, and deep-swirling Eridanus, Strymon, and Meander, and the fair stream of Ister, and Phasis, and Rhesus, and the silver eddies of Achelous, Nessus, and Rhodius, Haliacmon, and Heptaporus, Granicus, and Aesepus, and holy Simois, and Peneus, and Hermus, and Caicus fair stream, and great Sangarius, Ladon, Parthenius, Euenus, Ardescus, and divine Scamander.
Strabo: The Haliacmon flows into the Thermaean Gulf. and some more mentions of the river.
I've searched with google un.org and I could only find references for Aliakmonas. MATIA 23:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
In 1911 encyclopedia "Emathia, the district between the Haliacmon (Bistritza) and Axius, was once called Paeonia". MATIA 23:30, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 09:47, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone give the reference for the Herodotus account?-- Bogande 20:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I found the reference and put it in the article. Bogande 14:43, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Can somebody explain why was sourced info about the slavic name of the river removed. Thanks. Jingby ( talk) 05:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I think this is usefull info and it is not unduly for an world encyclopaedia. For example the Bulgarian article is entirely under this name. In many articles about Greek and Bulgarian objects, they are mentioned with their Greek and respectivly Slavic names. This is a normal policy. We have also enough references. Regards. Jingby ( talk) 12:12, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Somebody has changed South Slavic to Bulgarian. I have fixed it. Jingiby ( talk) 15:14, 14 October 2019 (UTC)