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Tour date table change

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


I feel like the tour date table should be changed. Most of the other concert tours use this format which I will use as an example below from the Sixty tour article.

Example 1:

List of 2022 concerts, showing date, city, country, venue, opening act(s) and tickets sold
Date (2022) City Country Venue Opening act(s) Attendance Gross
1 June Madrid Spain Wanda Metropolitano Sidonie
Vargas Blues Band
52,752 / 52,752 $9,502,011
5 June Munich Germany Olympiastadion Reef 56,144 / 56,144 $10,484,400
9 June Liverpool England Anfield Echo & the Bunnymen 36,917 / 36,917 $6,194,285

Example 1 is the standard table used in most concert tour articles. For this article, this is the format which is being used.

Current Table:

List of concerts showing date, city, country, venue and opening acts
Date City Country Venue Opening act
28 April 2024 Houston, Texas United States NRG Stadium Gary Clark Jr
2 May 2024 [a] New Orleans, Louisiana Fair Grounds Race Course
7 May 2024 Glendale, Arizona State Farm Stadium Carín León
Electric Mud

With the examples present, the question is: if the other concert tour articles can use the format of Example 1, why can't we apply that for this article? In my honest opinion, I think if the majority of concert tour articles use Example 1 for most of their tables, then this article should use it as well. But I digress, as I would like to see if a consensus can be built.

Pinging users who have made previous changes to the article: Isaidnoway, Koavf, Mr00Mister, 68.195.147.213, and Felida97. HorrorLover555 ( talk) 18:50, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply

I agree. Example 1 should be the used for this article also. Adding cities and states is understood by mostly United States residents, and could be confusing to list if the tour extends to other territories. Most tour tables only use city and don't name the state immediately after it. Mr00Mister ( talk) 18:56, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
I agree with this. HorrorLover555 ( talk) 19:06, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Sorry, how is clarifying which city you're talking about by mentioning the state more confusing? ― Justin (koavf)TCM 18:58, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
As far as I can tell, the differences are:
  1. A lack of attendance and gross figures
  2. Defined widths
Re: #1: sure, please do add them, if you have reliable sources. That would be great. Re: #2: there is no reason to define widths for these cells. In 2024, browsers are competent to render tables without being artificially told to fill them up with meaningless white space. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 18:57, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Well, we wouldn't necessarily add in the Attendance and Gross columns if there is no sources for them. HorrorLover555 ( talk) 19:00, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
So you're suggesting that we need to define widths? I think not. That would only make the table unnecessarily wide and on some renderings, too wide to display without horizontal scrolling, which is the worst thing on Earth. I don't see the incentive for that. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:03, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
That is not what I said. I said nothing about the widths, I said that we do not need to add Attendance and Gross if there are no sources in support of them. If there are widths, they would be shorter. HorrorLover555 ( talk) 19:05, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Okay, so what are you proposing we do differently? I had to tease it out of the example you gave. What are the changes you are proposing? You're making me work hard here to figure out what it is you want. Do you think we should have fixed widths on columns? ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:09, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
What I am trying to suggest, is that we change the tour date table to something like this below. I will use the tour dates of this article as an example:
Suggested Change:
List of 2024 shows
Date (2024) City Country Venue Opening acts
28 April 2024 Houston United States NRG Stadium Gary Clark Jr
2 May 2024 [b] New Orleans Fair Grounds Race Course
7 May 2024 Glendale State Farm Stadium Carín León
Electric Mud
This is kind of what I was trying to talk about, and see if it would be changed to something like this. HorrorLover555 ( talk) 19:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
I see no reason to center text, define fixed widths, or put the year twice and see reasons to not do all of those things, which I've outlined already, so no, we shouldn't do any of those changes. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:18, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Then we don't have to have the year put in twice above in the column. HorrorLover555 ( talk) 19:21, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
If we don't put the year twice, don't center text, and don't have fixed widths, then I don't see what the changes are so........... sure. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:27, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Actually, the caption is worse. Have you seen MOS:TABLECAPTION? No, I think none of these are improvements. How are any of these any better? ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:29, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Then what about concert tour articles like The Eras Tour or Zoo TV Tour as examples which uses the format I had shown to you? How come this article has to be an exception to all of the other concert tour articles? If they can use the format I presented to you, why can't we use it for this article? HorrorLover555 ( talk) 19:38, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Those articles should be changed. C'mon. Surely you know the difference between what is and what should be. I would wager most tables on Wikipedia also lack table captions and most images lack alt text. Should we remove those accessibility features because 50%+1 lack them? Most articles of x words or longer have at least one unsourced statement, therefore more unsourced statements are okay? Honestly, this is just silly. Do you have absolutely any reason for preferring centered text and defined column widths other than "other stuff exists"? Is there any sense in which those are an improvement and make for a better experience for anyone? ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:45, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Alright, I get it. If there is to be no change, fine. But I will say at least in my opinion that the states should be removed from the table. HorrorLover555 ( talk) 20:13, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
If you feel like that is an improvement and others agree, then I have no objection and I appreciate your time and feedback. Thanks. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 20:19, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
It seems like a third change is centering text. As I understand it, centered text is generally to be avoided for accessibility and legibility reasons (e.g. 1 and 2 and 3), so I'm inclined to say we should not have it, but I don't know of a source specifically about tables. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:16, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Mr00Mister:: Please undo the addition of centered text per the above. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 08:58, 19 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Is it plausible that we could find sources? ★Trekker ( talk) 19:14, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
I have searched and when I made this table, included those columns but inside of an HTML comment so they wouldn't render. It's kind of silly to keep them there so I removed them when I failed to find any sources. :/ ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Unfortunate that we can't find sources, it's relevant and interesting info. ★Trekker ( talk) 23:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
100% agreed and this is probably not a "we" problem, but a "me" problem: I'm not a very smart person. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 23:34, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tour date table change

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


I feel like the tour date table should be changed. Most of the other concert tours use this format which I will use as an example below from the Sixty tour article.

Example 1:

List of 2022 concerts, showing date, city, country, venue, opening act(s) and tickets sold
Date (2022) City Country Venue Opening act(s) Attendance Gross
1 June Madrid Spain Wanda Metropolitano Sidonie
Vargas Blues Band
52,752 / 52,752 $9,502,011
5 June Munich Germany Olympiastadion Reef 56,144 / 56,144 $10,484,400
9 June Liverpool England Anfield Echo & the Bunnymen 36,917 / 36,917 $6,194,285

Example 1 is the standard table used in most concert tour articles. For this article, this is the format which is being used.

Current Table:

List of concerts showing date, city, country, venue and opening acts
Date City Country Venue Opening act
28 April 2024 Houston, Texas United States NRG Stadium Gary Clark Jr
2 May 2024 [a] New Orleans, Louisiana Fair Grounds Race Course
7 May 2024 Glendale, Arizona State Farm Stadium Carín León
Electric Mud

With the examples present, the question is: if the other concert tour articles can use the format of Example 1, why can't we apply that for this article? In my honest opinion, I think if the majority of concert tour articles use Example 1 for most of their tables, then this article should use it as well. But I digress, as I would like to see if a consensus can be built.

Pinging users who have made previous changes to the article: Isaidnoway, Koavf, Mr00Mister, 68.195.147.213, and Felida97. HorrorLover555 ( talk) 18:50, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply

I agree. Example 1 should be the used for this article also. Adding cities and states is understood by mostly United States residents, and could be confusing to list if the tour extends to other territories. Most tour tables only use city and don't name the state immediately after it. Mr00Mister ( talk) 18:56, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
I agree with this. HorrorLover555 ( talk) 19:06, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Sorry, how is clarifying which city you're talking about by mentioning the state more confusing? ― Justin (koavf)TCM 18:58, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
As far as I can tell, the differences are:
  1. A lack of attendance and gross figures
  2. Defined widths
Re: #1: sure, please do add them, if you have reliable sources. That would be great. Re: #2: there is no reason to define widths for these cells. In 2024, browsers are competent to render tables without being artificially told to fill them up with meaningless white space. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 18:57, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Well, we wouldn't necessarily add in the Attendance and Gross columns if there is no sources for them. HorrorLover555 ( talk) 19:00, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
So you're suggesting that we need to define widths? I think not. That would only make the table unnecessarily wide and on some renderings, too wide to display without horizontal scrolling, which is the worst thing on Earth. I don't see the incentive for that. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:03, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
That is not what I said. I said nothing about the widths, I said that we do not need to add Attendance and Gross if there are no sources in support of them. If there are widths, they would be shorter. HorrorLover555 ( talk) 19:05, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Okay, so what are you proposing we do differently? I had to tease it out of the example you gave. What are the changes you are proposing? You're making me work hard here to figure out what it is you want. Do you think we should have fixed widths on columns? ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:09, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
What I am trying to suggest, is that we change the tour date table to something like this below. I will use the tour dates of this article as an example:
Suggested Change:
List of 2024 shows
Date (2024) City Country Venue Opening acts
28 April 2024 Houston United States NRG Stadium Gary Clark Jr
2 May 2024 [b] New Orleans Fair Grounds Race Course
7 May 2024 Glendale State Farm Stadium Carín León
Electric Mud
This is kind of what I was trying to talk about, and see if it would be changed to something like this. HorrorLover555 ( talk) 19:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
I see no reason to center text, define fixed widths, or put the year twice and see reasons to not do all of those things, which I've outlined already, so no, we shouldn't do any of those changes. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:18, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Then we don't have to have the year put in twice above in the column. HorrorLover555 ( talk) 19:21, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
If we don't put the year twice, don't center text, and don't have fixed widths, then I don't see what the changes are so........... sure. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:27, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Actually, the caption is worse. Have you seen MOS:TABLECAPTION? No, I think none of these are improvements. How are any of these any better? ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:29, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Then what about concert tour articles like The Eras Tour or Zoo TV Tour as examples which uses the format I had shown to you? How come this article has to be an exception to all of the other concert tour articles? If they can use the format I presented to you, why can't we use it for this article? HorrorLover555 ( talk) 19:38, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Those articles should be changed. C'mon. Surely you know the difference between what is and what should be. I would wager most tables on Wikipedia also lack table captions and most images lack alt text. Should we remove those accessibility features because 50%+1 lack them? Most articles of x words or longer have at least one unsourced statement, therefore more unsourced statements are okay? Honestly, this is just silly. Do you have absolutely any reason for preferring centered text and defined column widths other than "other stuff exists"? Is there any sense in which those are an improvement and make for a better experience for anyone? ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:45, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Alright, I get it. If there is to be no change, fine. But I will say at least in my opinion that the states should be removed from the table. HorrorLover555 ( talk) 20:13, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
If you feel like that is an improvement and others agree, then I have no objection and I appreciate your time and feedback. Thanks. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 20:19, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
It seems like a third change is centering text. As I understand it, centered text is generally to be avoided for accessibility and legibility reasons (e.g. 1 and 2 and 3), so I'm inclined to say we should not have it, but I don't know of a source specifically about tables. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:16, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Mr00Mister:: Please undo the addition of centered text per the above. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 08:58, 19 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Is it plausible that we could find sources? ★Trekker ( talk) 19:14, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
I have searched and when I made this table, included those columns but inside of an HTML comment so they wouldn't render. It's kind of silly to keep them there so I removed them when I failed to find any sources. :/ ― Justin (koavf)TCM 19:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
Unfortunate that we can't find sources, it's relevant and interesting info. ★Trekker ( talk) 23:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
100% agreed and this is probably not a "we" problem, but a "me" problem: I'm not a very smart person. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 23:34, 18 July 2024 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha> tags or {{efn}} templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}} template or {{notelist}} template (see the help page).


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