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Reply to David's edit summary comment on the best way to mention FrontPage's code mangling, yes, I think it is better. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 14:36, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The discussion of WYSIWYG in this article is so horribly biased that I don't even know where to start. Can we just rip the whole thing out and start again? — Kate | Talk 03:41, 2004 Aug 5 (UTC)
I have attempted to remove some obvious bias. Some always/all type generalizations removed. "Web specialists" removed. Reworded discussion about WYSIWYG editors, notably HTML is not WYSIWYG. Focused more on difficulties in achieving WYSIWYG when browsers are free to render the structure differently.
WYSIWYG section still needs a reorganization.
Dbolton has just added a bit on WYSIWYM editors. But does anybody know of one? As much as there ought to be a few out there, it seems silly to talk about what doesn't exist as if it does.
But I do wonder if the HTML Tags view in Mozilla Composer can sensibly be called WYSIWYM.... -- Smjg 11:50, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd suggest that the term "text editor" for the one class of html editors implies less than what most of them do. Most references I've seen to the discussion between WYSIWYG html editors call the other class "code editors." And users are hand-coders, not hand-texters. HomeSite has certainly always been referred to this way. Just a suggestion. jwilkinson 21:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Try WebTide from http://webtide.lx.ro. It's a freeware HTML editor with tag completion and CSS comletion
Shouldn't that section be ripped out of this article? It has its own article already, and since the content isn't somehow linked, it's a purely redundany copy & paste job across two articles. -- Northgrove 22:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Should not the chart include the amount of memory needed to run and store the program? This can be a large amount and so is not inconsequential. Dogru144 21:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
NVu 1.0 (20050620) on Windows has its Edit -> Check Spelling item disabled. The only way I could find to check spelling was by turning on View > Show/Hide > Composition Toolbar and then using the Spell button there. A detailed review is at: http://thephantomwriters.com/free_content/d/h/nvu-software-review.shtml
Conceptual confusion/mistake on column "Dynamic Web page". It is correlated to "Templates". The "dynamic generation" process "OUT of server" (not a server-side generation). See concept on web template system and dynamic web page. SUGESTION: remove the column. Unsigned October 2006
While it's nice with open source tools, I'm unsure if the focus should be on these three editors. Perhaps Amaya for the W3C curiosity (although I can't say I've heard many actually using it), but otherwise, isn't both Dreamweaver and even FrontPage more used than the others? Quanta Plus has a prominent screenshot but isn't even listed in the comparison! I thought DW was among the most used editors on the web, and any web designer is probably aware of FrontPage + its FrontPage web extensions. -- Northgrove 22:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm no moderator but I propose that the links to online editors go either to the List of HTML editors with no bold letters! <-BTW, that ones already there.) or be removed. May I?
I notice that large parts of this article have been rewritten earlier today by Oicumayberight. I'm concerned about the repetition in the paragraph under the heading 'Criticism of WYSIWYG editors'. It seems to say the same thing three times with ever more whacky examples used for emphasis. Is this the three-times repetition trick I heard somewhere that politicians' speech-writers use for rousing an audience, or is there something in there that I'm missing? Nigelj 16:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I may be out of touch with graphic designers' tools (I spend most of my days writing OO web software these days), but can we have an example of, or an explanation of, what 'Object Editors' are? I've never heard of them as discussed here and can't work it out from what's written. On the same score, what are 'Pallets'? Are these dialog boxes? Maybe another name for panels within some product's main window? Again it's just not a GUI term I'm familiar with, and with no illustration or example of what we're talking about I'm not clear what to visualise. (I have been using, writing and designing GUI user interfaces for some years, so I'm not completely ignorant in this area) Nigelj 16:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Lastly, I'm worried about the bullet points in the 'Criticism of WYSIWYG editors' section now. It seems to read, "Some people say this criticism, but they're wrong, wrong, wrong for all the following reasons..." over and over again. It reads more like a "how to win an argument against people who criticise your editor" guide. If that's a balanced NPOV view, then the subheading is now certainly wrong as there are no criticisms left.
It certainly needs to be made clear again that web pages are used differently by different users, and that that is not just due to some kind of browser-inconsistency bug! Search engines, screen scrapers, portable devices, low-bandwidth clients, small screens, the visually impaired, screen readers etc are all legitimate consumers of our HTML content, and HTML editors have to allow for this.
I was tempted just to revert the whole set of edits, but I'll leave it a while to see what other editors think. -- Nigelj 16:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Took out paragraph referencing WebEditor+ as it was a shameless ad. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.250.216.219 ( talk • contribs) 01:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC2)
I added a NPOV tag for the Criticisms part. The person who wrote it is basically saying "People who critize WYSIWYG programs for bad code are wrong", without giving any evidence to prove it. 74.120.133.109 23:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't edit Wikipedia that much, so if this is just wasting space, I apologize. It seemed like there was conflict over what should be in this article though, so I thought I should explain my edits. Feel free to disagree or question.
The meaning of this table is unclear. Does operating system support mean that the software is compatible, or that tech support is still provided. If it means that the software is (or isn't) compatible, are we only concerned with the latest version? What exactly does "dropped" mean? Perhaps a legend would clear things up. Oicumayberight 16:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I visited this wikipedia topic in the hope of finding a pointer to some tools for stream editing of HTML, just as sed can be used as a stream editor for plain text, or xml-sed can be used to stream edit valid XML. Since HTML often isn't valid XML, the xml-coreutils can't be used, and I was hoping to find mention of something similar for HTML. Lukekendall ( talk) 13:21, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
It is absent. What was the first real HTML editor? CoffeeCup Software says they made the first one.. -- 85.102.127.183 ( talk) 11:22, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The image File:Macromedia HomeSite.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --22:59, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
The section Online editors starts by saying "There are many online WYSIWYG HTML editors; some of them are listed here:". There are then 7 wikilinks to articles on editors. I saw that after that there were then 4 external links to webpages on other editors, including one recently added by an IP editor. I removed those 5, with the edit summary: "Remove those not sufficiently notable to have had Wikipedia articles written about them". The IP has now added them back. Does the community feel that such a list should include products which do not have Wikipedia articles? If they should be included then of course WP:EL would say that there shouldn't be external links within the article body text, so they ought to be plain text entries with references to the external websites. -- David Biddulph ( talk) 17:27, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:HTML editor/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
---|---|
This page contains my comments on the
Criticism section of the
HTML editor article and the original article with hyperlinks to my comments in bracketed superscript.
Altarbo 21:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
== Criticisms of WYSIWYG editors== WYSIWYG editors facilitate the generation of web pages by people with little experience or knowledge of HTML. Experienced hand coders are prone to criticize the editing technology for the neglectful editing habits of the person editing, analogous to faulting automobile technology for reckless driving.[ NPOV ] Because WYSIWYG editors make it easy to build web pages, the editing technology is often faulted for the inexperience of the person editing, analogous to faulting digital cameras for amateur photography.[ NPOV ] Because WYSIWYG editors make complex visual layouts easier to create, the editing technology is often faulted for problems due to complexity of the layout. [ NPOV ] WYSIWYG editors are sometimes criticized for the following reasons:
==Notes==
===NPOV===
These analogies are very NPOV. WYSIWYG:Text::Car:Horse? These metaphors either ignore the existance of Text Editors or casually deride them. Digital photography and automobiles offer significant advantages over previous technologies. A WYSIWYG editor offers almost no advantage to a user capable of writing their own HTML. It also comes with tons of disadvantages. Altarbo 21:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC) ===Misrepresentation ===
WYSIWYG editors give the user the impression that what they see is what their visitors will get. This is especially untrue with tables and gives users the impression that they can use tables for visual/layout purposes, when in reality, tables are displayed differently across browsers and relying on tables (instead of CSS) will create a document that looks radically different to different visitors. Altarbo 21:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC) ===Bullet three=== The problems in the fourth and second bullet are simply facets of the problem from the third. Altarbo 21:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC) ===Irrelevant ===
The web was designed to be viewable on many different devices. The minimum requirments that Tim Berners Lee included with his original paper on the World Wide Web included a 30x80 pixel black and white display. W3C standards have nothing to do with a page displaying a static constant image. They involve the opposite. Altarbo 21:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC) ===Misleading=== This is a misleading statement. Consistent web browser technology is not going to happen any time soon. A black and white PDA, a cell phone, a standard desktop computer, and a laptop are very different platforms. Cell phones have a portrait oriented small screen, a PDA can have a black and white screen , no audio, and a landscape oriented screen; and a desktop computer can output pure audio. Altarbo 21:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC) ===OR=== This goes beyond OR. This is not cited and it is unfounded speculation. Altarbo 21:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 13:15, 13 May 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 19:59, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
References
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This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Reply to David's edit summary comment on the best way to mention FrontPage's code mangling, yes, I think it is better. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 14:36, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The discussion of WYSIWYG in this article is so horribly biased that I don't even know where to start. Can we just rip the whole thing out and start again? — Kate | Talk 03:41, 2004 Aug 5 (UTC)
I have attempted to remove some obvious bias. Some always/all type generalizations removed. "Web specialists" removed. Reworded discussion about WYSIWYG editors, notably HTML is not WYSIWYG. Focused more on difficulties in achieving WYSIWYG when browsers are free to render the structure differently.
WYSIWYG section still needs a reorganization.
Dbolton has just added a bit on WYSIWYM editors. But does anybody know of one? As much as there ought to be a few out there, it seems silly to talk about what doesn't exist as if it does.
But I do wonder if the HTML Tags view in Mozilla Composer can sensibly be called WYSIWYM.... -- Smjg 11:50, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd suggest that the term "text editor" for the one class of html editors implies less than what most of them do. Most references I've seen to the discussion between WYSIWYG html editors call the other class "code editors." And users are hand-coders, not hand-texters. HomeSite has certainly always been referred to this way. Just a suggestion. jwilkinson 21:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Try WebTide from http://webtide.lx.ro. It's a freeware HTML editor with tag completion and CSS comletion
Shouldn't that section be ripped out of this article? It has its own article already, and since the content isn't somehow linked, it's a purely redundany copy & paste job across two articles. -- Northgrove 22:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Should not the chart include the amount of memory needed to run and store the program? This can be a large amount and so is not inconsequential. Dogru144 21:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
NVu 1.0 (20050620) on Windows has its Edit -> Check Spelling item disabled. The only way I could find to check spelling was by turning on View > Show/Hide > Composition Toolbar and then using the Spell button there. A detailed review is at: http://thephantomwriters.com/free_content/d/h/nvu-software-review.shtml
Conceptual confusion/mistake on column "Dynamic Web page". It is correlated to "Templates". The "dynamic generation" process "OUT of server" (not a server-side generation). See concept on web template system and dynamic web page. SUGESTION: remove the column. Unsigned October 2006
While it's nice with open source tools, I'm unsure if the focus should be on these three editors. Perhaps Amaya for the W3C curiosity (although I can't say I've heard many actually using it), but otherwise, isn't both Dreamweaver and even FrontPage more used than the others? Quanta Plus has a prominent screenshot but isn't even listed in the comparison! I thought DW was among the most used editors on the web, and any web designer is probably aware of FrontPage + its FrontPage web extensions. -- Northgrove 22:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm no moderator but I propose that the links to online editors go either to the List of HTML editors with no bold letters! <-BTW, that ones already there.) or be removed. May I?
I notice that large parts of this article have been rewritten earlier today by Oicumayberight. I'm concerned about the repetition in the paragraph under the heading 'Criticism of WYSIWYG editors'. It seems to say the same thing three times with ever more whacky examples used for emphasis. Is this the three-times repetition trick I heard somewhere that politicians' speech-writers use for rousing an audience, or is there something in there that I'm missing? Nigelj 16:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I may be out of touch with graphic designers' tools (I spend most of my days writing OO web software these days), but can we have an example of, or an explanation of, what 'Object Editors' are? I've never heard of them as discussed here and can't work it out from what's written. On the same score, what are 'Pallets'? Are these dialog boxes? Maybe another name for panels within some product's main window? Again it's just not a GUI term I'm familiar with, and with no illustration or example of what we're talking about I'm not clear what to visualise. (I have been using, writing and designing GUI user interfaces for some years, so I'm not completely ignorant in this area) Nigelj 16:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Lastly, I'm worried about the bullet points in the 'Criticism of WYSIWYG editors' section now. It seems to read, "Some people say this criticism, but they're wrong, wrong, wrong for all the following reasons..." over and over again. It reads more like a "how to win an argument against people who criticise your editor" guide. If that's a balanced NPOV view, then the subheading is now certainly wrong as there are no criticisms left.
It certainly needs to be made clear again that web pages are used differently by different users, and that that is not just due to some kind of browser-inconsistency bug! Search engines, screen scrapers, portable devices, low-bandwidth clients, small screens, the visually impaired, screen readers etc are all legitimate consumers of our HTML content, and HTML editors have to allow for this.
I was tempted just to revert the whole set of edits, but I'll leave it a while to see what other editors think. -- Nigelj 16:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Took out paragraph referencing WebEditor+ as it was a shameless ad. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.250.216.219 ( talk • contribs) 01:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC2)
I added a NPOV tag for the Criticisms part. The person who wrote it is basically saying "People who critize WYSIWYG programs for bad code are wrong", without giving any evidence to prove it. 74.120.133.109 23:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't edit Wikipedia that much, so if this is just wasting space, I apologize. It seemed like there was conflict over what should be in this article though, so I thought I should explain my edits. Feel free to disagree or question.
The meaning of this table is unclear. Does operating system support mean that the software is compatible, or that tech support is still provided. If it means that the software is (or isn't) compatible, are we only concerned with the latest version? What exactly does "dropped" mean? Perhaps a legend would clear things up. Oicumayberight 16:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I visited this wikipedia topic in the hope of finding a pointer to some tools for stream editing of HTML, just as sed can be used as a stream editor for plain text, or xml-sed can be used to stream edit valid XML. Since HTML often isn't valid XML, the xml-coreutils can't be used, and I was hoping to find mention of something similar for HTML. Lukekendall ( talk) 13:21, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
It is absent. What was the first real HTML editor? CoffeeCup Software says they made the first one.. -- 85.102.127.183 ( talk) 11:22, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The image File:Macromedia HomeSite.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --22:59, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
The section Online editors starts by saying "There are many online WYSIWYG HTML editors; some of them are listed here:". There are then 7 wikilinks to articles on editors. I saw that after that there were then 4 external links to webpages on other editors, including one recently added by an IP editor. I removed those 5, with the edit summary: "Remove those not sufficiently notable to have had Wikipedia articles written about them". The IP has now added them back. Does the community feel that such a list should include products which do not have Wikipedia articles? If they should be included then of course WP:EL would say that there shouldn't be external links within the article body text, so they ought to be plain text entries with references to the external websites. -- David Biddulph ( talk) 17:27, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:HTML editor/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
---|---|
This page contains my comments on the
Criticism section of the
HTML editor article and the original article with hyperlinks to my comments in bracketed superscript.
Altarbo 21:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
== Criticisms of WYSIWYG editors== WYSIWYG editors facilitate the generation of web pages by people with little experience or knowledge of HTML. Experienced hand coders are prone to criticize the editing technology for the neglectful editing habits of the person editing, analogous to faulting automobile technology for reckless driving.[ NPOV ] Because WYSIWYG editors make it easy to build web pages, the editing technology is often faulted for the inexperience of the person editing, analogous to faulting digital cameras for amateur photography.[ NPOV ] Because WYSIWYG editors make complex visual layouts easier to create, the editing technology is often faulted for problems due to complexity of the layout. [ NPOV ] WYSIWYG editors are sometimes criticized for the following reasons:
==Notes==
===NPOV===
These analogies are very NPOV. WYSIWYG:Text::Car:Horse? These metaphors either ignore the existance of Text Editors or casually deride them. Digital photography and automobiles offer significant advantages over previous technologies. A WYSIWYG editor offers almost no advantage to a user capable of writing their own HTML. It also comes with tons of disadvantages. Altarbo 21:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC) ===Misrepresentation ===
WYSIWYG editors give the user the impression that what they see is what their visitors will get. This is especially untrue with tables and gives users the impression that they can use tables for visual/layout purposes, when in reality, tables are displayed differently across browsers and relying on tables (instead of CSS) will create a document that looks radically different to different visitors. Altarbo 21:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC) ===Bullet three=== The problems in the fourth and second bullet are simply facets of the problem from the third. Altarbo 21:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC) ===Irrelevant ===
The web was designed to be viewable on many different devices. The minimum requirments that Tim Berners Lee included with his original paper on the World Wide Web included a 30x80 pixel black and white display. W3C standards have nothing to do with a page displaying a static constant image. They involve the opposite. Altarbo 21:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC) ===Misleading=== This is a misleading statement. Consistent web browser technology is not going to happen any time soon. A black and white PDA, a cell phone, a standard desktop computer, and a laptop are very different platforms. Cell phones have a portrait oriented small screen, a PDA can have a black and white screen , no audio, and a landscape oriented screen; and a desktop computer can output pure audio. Altarbo 21:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC) ===OR=== This goes beyond OR. This is not cited and it is unfounded speculation. Altarbo 21:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 13:15, 13 May 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 19:59, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help)