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The proposed move was logical, not controversial, and not blocked, so I made the move myself. ⇒ BRossow T/ C 04:10, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
HMS Royal Oak (08) → HMS Royal Oak (1914) … Rationale: All the other ships named HMS Royal Oak are at titles with the following format: "HMS Royal Oak (abcd)", where "abcd" is the year of launch. It seems odd that this article should be different. HMS Royal Oak (1914) is already occupied by a redirect so I don't know how to move it. — Tamino 14:15, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Much of the current text appears to have been copied from
here, though it is not clear whether copyright is asserted on that work. I am intending to make a substantial expansion/rewrite of the article, so this potential issue will be removed in due course. —
BillC
talk 12:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
This is a great article, and should definitely get GA status. Jolb 00:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
It's an interesting read, and kudos to Bill who seems to have done most of it. I've assessed and passed this against
the
criteria.
A couple of other things though - anything you can use from the London Gazette? Can you convert the references to {{ cite web}} or other specialised templates - not the book references though? The auto peer review javascript program says:
between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 000 tons, use 000 tons, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 000 tons.
[?]Does Donitz's book have an ISBN, or can you link it to the same book on googlebooks? Bit more work and I think it would be a good featured article. Thanks, RHB Talk - Edits 11:07, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
There may be a way to present the Roll of Honour in a way that does not take up so much room, e.g. as a table of 5 or 6 columns. Maybe another editor could help here. 81.156.63.69 07:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Does " Spanish Government forces" in the Spanish Civil War section refer to the Republicans or to the Nationalists? The linked article Spanish State refers to the 1939-1978 period, so I assume it's Franco's Nationalists, but some ambiguity remains. In 1937 the Republicans , as far as I remember, were still acknowledged by Britain as the legitimate Spanish Government. L'omo del batocio 09:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I have NO IDEA what the copyright tag for this image should be, it doesn't fall into any of the category i can see.
I own the document and i scanned it in, and its an original document from 1939. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lincspoacher ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
In the notes alluding to Commander R.F. Nicholls and the loss of HMS Vanguard, a couple of problems. My copy of Miller was printed in 2005, and so may be different to the original, but it gives the first printing as 2000, not 1999. With that in mind my edition (which apparently contains many corrections) has all the relevent information pertaining to the loss of Vanguard on P.50 and not P.51. Also there is NO mention whatsoever of the cause of the sinking of Vanguard, which makes the citation of the book for Note g. somewhat spurious. There is the statement on P.49 of my copy right before the reference to Vanguard, having just mentioned the loss of Natal, "before the war was over, unstable explosives had taken yet more lives", which is a fairly poor allusion to the loss of Vanguard.
At the very least there's the Report of the Court of Enquiry at GWPDA, or on the Scapa theme This Great Harbour by W.S. Hewison (also published by Birlinn) also refers to the sinking in a little more detail on pages 111-113 and reflects the findings of the Enquiry. -- Harlsbottom ( talk) 10:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Somewhat infuriatingly a scouring of The Times' has left me none the wiser to Commander Nichols - it has raised another issue though. My Hewison "states" that, of the ship's complement;
The Times of 14 July, 1917 states that 24 officers and 71 men (that tallies) were not on board and survived and we've 6 officers unaccounted for. So without any direct evidence we can't say Nichols was on Royal Oak at the time, which is a shame as it would be a nice connection. Hopefully you turn up something. Apologies for taking this a bit far - someone needs to update the Vanguard page!
As to permission, you've obviously been the driving force behind this page, and there are alas, some people out there who take Summarizing far too much. -- Harlsbottom ( talk) 20:16, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
No mention in the article of the hundreds of boy sailors aged 14-17 who lost their lives. This was the greatest loss of young life at sea in any naval incident before or since, I gather from an article on the radio this morning marking the 70th anniversary. Also significant in that, following the incident, efforts were made to push a law through parliament that has subsequently prevented boys of this age from being placed on warships during wartime. I feel this information should be included in the main article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.123.130.44 ( talk) 08:04, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
There was some text on the Boy Sailors who died, but someone removed it on the grounds it was uncited. I am in the process of sourcing this properly (the sources tend to disagree amongst themselves as to the number of Boys who died), and will then add it back. (And thanks for the compliments on the article). — BillC talk 09:43, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
I've just noticed that a number of documents from The National Archives are referenced in the article, with "HMSO" given as the publisher. Since these documents were never published, and one has to visit The National Archives at Kew to consult them, this must surely fall into WP:OR? -- Simon Harley ( Talk | Library). 08:33, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
I don't know if it is relevant but the White Ensign and Union flag flown by the Royal Oak at the surrender of the German fleet in WWI both hang in Strathlachlan Parish Church. More information on Canmore. -- jmb ( talk) 23:56, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
Why there are two different coordinates in the voice? Which is correct? Furthermore the DFT site reports the wreck "sleeps" 58.55.848N 02.59.001W. I thought this one was the best references to resolve the problem, but if I put on this coord wiki gives me an error (paragraph "Tomba di guerra")... Does anybody could help me? -- Bonty ( talk) 16:31, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
I don't see any reference for this statement. Are you sure it's true? In the book Portsmouth at War by Whitmarsh there is a contemporaneous photo (on page 27) of people examining the list of casualties outside the naval barracks. Llezsoeg ( talk) 20:17, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
This article's been proposed as the Featured Article of the Day on the main page and it's not up to contemporary FA standards. There's barely any description of the ship to support the information in the infobox, the information on the interwar modernization(s) is sketchy, a few cites are missing, the bibliography needs to be overhauled for consistency and the sources need to be vetted. Not fond of the citation style, but I supposed I should respect the current format, although it seems awfully wordy with titles unnecessarily repeated. Anybody want to help to alleviate a formal FA Review?-- Sturmvogel 66 ( talk) 21:19, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
This article gives 833 as the casualty figure and for many years this has been the widely accepted figure. Although his work has not been published yet, a local historian in Orkney has established to a reasonable level of certainty that the figure is 834. It seems that two names were omitted from, and one had been added in error to the original casualty list. Some recent publications and website entries have reflected this and the newly-erected memorial near the beach at Scapa Bay has the updated list and number. Just flagging this up. Will provide a more convincing and referenced case at some point, hopefully. Worth noting that the Royal Oak Survivor's Association and that here in Orkney the local branches of both the Royal British Legion and Royal Naval Association have accepted the new figure, but apart from the figure on the memorial it has not been widely publicised. Fine Hid ( talk) 21:50, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 06:30, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
If people are wondering what TFA Protector Bot is doing here, I have tentatively penciled this in as Today's Featured Article for the 17th. It needs some work before it can run, though, particularly to the WWI section. Parsecboy has offered to look at it in a few days, and all help will be appreciated. - Dank ( push to talk) 04:47, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
I understand that the last survivor Arthur Smith, who was a Boy 1st Class at the time, has died in the last few days. I am in search of an obituary to back this up but have been unable to find anything yet. I will add to the article when I do. — BillC talk 22:55, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on HMS Royal Oak (08). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:07, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
A month ago, I posted at the OMT talk page here about a source problem I identified that had been inserted accidentally when the refs were converted back in 2014 - I fixed it, but it occurs to me that I probably ought to mention the problem here, as there may be more errors that crept into the article at the same time, and there are likely people watching this page that aren't watching the OMT one. Parsecboy ( talk) 15:34, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
"The loss of the outdated ship—the first of five Royal Navy battleships and battlecruisers sunk in the Second World War—did little to affect the numerical superiority enjoyed by the British navy and its Allies, but it had a considerable effect on wartime morale."
(A) Was the ship wasn't significantly "outdated" in comparison to the average Royal Navy battleship. It was even more updated than its sisters with improvements to the armor not yet received by the sisters prior to the war. At the time the first of the KGV was still about a year from being commissioned, so for comparison you had the QE-Class and the Nelson-Class. Clearly the QEs were superior, but they were not newer. Three of the QEs were significantly rebuilt between wars, but less work was done to the Malaya and Barham. A good question might be: as the most updated of her class did the Royal Oak have some superior characteristics than the Malaya and Barham. Clearly speed was not enhanced.
(B) At the outbreak of WWII there were only 12 British Battleships available for service: 5 QEs, 5 Revenges, and 2 Nelsons, with the need for world wide coverage, losing 1 represented an 8% reduction in the force. As far as allies, in 1939 the French had 9 Dreadnought or better battleships, 7 of which were inferior to the Royal Oak in most ways and 2 of which were modern/faster, but carried inferior guns to the Royal Oak. This gives a 21 ship count, compared to the Axis Alliance of the Japanese (10), Italians (5), and Germans (2) = 17. Until December 1941 -- two plus years later, the US was not bound by any allegiance to Britain. However, the Japanese, Italians, and Germans were increasingly tied together by a series of pacts and treaties beginning in the mid-1930s. Going from 21 to 17 to 20 to 17 is a significant "affect the numerical superiority", especially with the questionable reliability of the French.
Can we micro-defend the sentence? Sure we can split hairs -- of course we can. But I think that having such a statement in the lead paragraph maybe considered irresponsible and not universally regarded as accurate. Unnecessarily controversial for an encyclopedia? Thank you! -- Kevin Murray ( talk) 17:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
I made my points. I can't push rope uphill. As I said above, "Can we micro-defend the sentence? Sure we can split hairs -- of course we can." I'm not going to debate you further. Perhaps somebody else will see my point. Or maybe like you suggest move it out of the lead? I would support that compromise. Cheers!
And thanks for all you do for the pages -- I know you work hard. I remember your name fondly from when I was very active on WP years ago. -- Kevin Murray ( talk) 20:41, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
Can someone add a citation where its missing at the last sentence of the Special Operation P: the raid by U-47 section? Hog Farm Bacon 17:52, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
I noticed that the page preview for this article is blank (devoid of words and only display the ship picture). Could someone fix this problem? Thanks. Jauhsekali ( talk) 12:09, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
Link? 61.68.84.23 ( talk) 06:30, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
HMS Royal Oak (08) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
HMS Royal Oak (08) is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 17, 2019. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
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The proposed move was logical, not controversial, and not blocked, so I made the move myself. ⇒ BRossow T/ C 04:10, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
HMS Royal Oak (08) → HMS Royal Oak (1914) … Rationale: All the other ships named HMS Royal Oak are at titles with the following format: "HMS Royal Oak (abcd)", where "abcd" is the year of launch. It seems odd that this article should be different. HMS Royal Oak (1914) is already occupied by a redirect so I don't know how to move it. — Tamino 14:15, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Much of the current text appears to have been copied from
here, though it is not clear whether copyright is asserted on that work. I am intending to make a substantial expansion/rewrite of the article, so this potential issue will be removed in due course. —
BillC
talk 12:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
This is a great article, and should definitely get GA status. Jolb 00:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
It's an interesting read, and kudos to Bill who seems to have done most of it. I've assessed and passed this against
the
criteria.
A couple of other things though - anything you can use from the London Gazette? Can you convert the references to {{ cite web}} or other specialised templates - not the book references though? The auto peer review javascript program says:
between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 000 tons, use 000 tons, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 000 tons.
[?]Does Donitz's book have an ISBN, or can you link it to the same book on googlebooks? Bit more work and I think it would be a good featured article. Thanks, RHB Talk - Edits 11:07, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
There may be a way to present the Roll of Honour in a way that does not take up so much room, e.g. as a table of 5 or 6 columns. Maybe another editor could help here. 81.156.63.69 07:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Does " Spanish Government forces" in the Spanish Civil War section refer to the Republicans or to the Nationalists? The linked article Spanish State refers to the 1939-1978 period, so I assume it's Franco's Nationalists, but some ambiguity remains. In 1937 the Republicans , as far as I remember, were still acknowledged by Britain as the legitimate Spanish Government. L'omo del batocio 09:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I have NO IDEA what the copyright tag for this image should be, it doesn't fall into any of the category i can see.
I own the document and i scanned it in, and its an original document from 1939. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lincspoacher ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
In the notes alluding to Commander R.F. Nicholls and the loss of HMS Vanguard, a couple of problems. My copy of Miller was printed in 2005, and so may be different to the original, but it gives the first printing as 2000, not 1999. With that in mind my edition (which apparently contains many corrections) has all the relevent information pertaining to the loss of Vanguard on P.50 and not P.51. Also there is NO mention whatsoever of the cause of the sinking of Vanguard, which makes the citation of the book for Note g. somewhat spurious. There is the statement on P.49 of my copy right before the reference to Vanguard, having just mentioned the loss of Natal, "before the war was over, unstable explosives had taken yet more lives", which is a fairly poor allusion to the loss of Vanguard.
At the very least there's the Report of the Court of Enquiry at GWPDA, or on the Scapa theme This Great Harbour by W.S. Hewison (also published by Birlinn) also refers to the sinking in a little more detail on pages 111-113 and reflects the findings of the Enquiry. -- Harlsbottom ( talk) 10:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Somewhat infuriatingly a scouring of The Times' has left me none the wiser to Commander Nichols - it has raised another issue though. My Hewison "states" that, of the ship's complement;
The Times of 14 July, 1917 states that 24 officers and 71 men (that tallies) were not on board and survived and we've 6 officers unaccounted for. So without any direct evidence we can't say Nichols was on Royal Oak at the time, which is a shame as it would be a nice connection. Hopefully you turn up something. Apologies for taking this a bit far - someone needs to update the Vanguard page!
As to permission, you've obviously been the driving force behind this page, and there are alas, some people out there who take Summarizing far too much. -- Harlsbottom ( talk) 20:16, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
No mention in the article of the hundreds of boy sailors aged 14-17 who lost their lives. This was the greatest loss of young life at sea in any naval incident before or since, I gather from an article on the radio this morning marking the 70th anniversary. Also significant in that, following the incident, efforts were made to push a law through parliament that has subsequently prevented boys of this age from being placed on warships during wartime. I feel this information should be included in the main article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.123.130.44 ( talk) 08:04, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
There was some text on the Boy Sailors who died, but someone removed it on the grounds it was uncited. I am in the process of sourcing this properly (the sources tend to disagree amongst themselves as to the number of Boys who died), and will then add it back. (And thanks for the compliments on the article). — BillC talk 09:43, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
I've just noticed that a number of documents from The National Archives are referenced in the article, with "HMSO" given as the publisher. Since these documents were never published, and one has to visit The National Archives at Kew to consult them, this must surely fall into WP:OR? -- Simon Harley ( Talk | Library). 08:33, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
I don't know if it is relevant but the White Ensign and Union flag flown by the Royal Oak at the surrender of the German fleet in WWI both hang in Strathlachlan Parish Church. More information on Canmore. -- jmb ( talk) 23:56, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
Why there are two different coordinates in the voice? Which is correct? Furthermore the DFT site reports the wreck "sleeps" 58.55.848N 02.59.001W. I thought this one was the best references to resolve the problem, but if I put on this coord wiki gives me an error (paragraph "Tomba di guerra")... Does anybody could help me? -- Bonty ( talk) 16:31, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
I don't see any reference for this statement. Are you sure it's true? In the book Portsmouth at War by Whitmarsh there is a contemporaneous photo (on page 27) of people examining the list of casualties outside the naval barracks. Llezsoeg ( talk) 20:17, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
This article's been proposed as the Featured Article of the Day on the main page and it's not up to contemporary FA standards. There's barely any description of the ship to support the information in the infobox, the information on the interwar modernization(s) is sketchy, a few cites are missing, the bibliography needs to be overhauled for consistency and the sources need to be vetted. Not fond of the citation style, but I supposed I should respect the current format, although it seems awfully wordy with titles unnecessarily repeated. Anybody want to help to alleviate a formal FA Review?-- Sturmvogel 66 ( talk) 21:19, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
This article gives 833 as the casualty figure and for many years this has been the widely accepted figure. Although his work has not been published yet, a local historian in Orkney has established to a reasonable level of certainty that the figure is 834. It seems that two names were omitted from, and one had been added in error to the original casualty list. Some recent publications and website entries have reflected this and the newly-erected memorial near the beach at Scapa Bay has the updated list and number. Just flagging this up. Will provide a more convincing and referenced case at some point, hopefully. Worth noting that the Royal Oak Survivor's Association and that here in Orkney the local branches of both the Royal British Legion and Royal Naval Association have accepted the new figure, but apart from the figure on the memorial it has not been widely publicised. Fine Hid ( talk) 21:50, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 06:30, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
If people are wondering what TFA Protector Bot is doing here, I have tentatively penciled this in as Today's Featured Article for the 17th. It needs some work before it can run, though, particularly to the WWI section. Parsecboy has offered to look at it in a few days, and all help will be appreciated. - Dank ( push to talk) 04:47, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
I understand that the last survivor Arthur Smith, who was a Boy 1st Class at the time, has died in the last few days. I am in search of an obituary to back this up but have been unable to find anything yet. I will add to the article when I do. — BillC talk 22:55, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on HMS Royal Oak (08). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:07, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
A month ago, I posted at the OMT talk page here about a source problem I identified that had been inserted accidentally when the refs were converted back in 2014 - I fixed it, but it occurs to me that I probably ought to mention the problem here, as there may be more errors that crept into the article at the same time, and there are likely people watching this page that aren't watching the OMT one. Parsecboy ( talk) 15:34, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
"The loss of the outdated ship—the first of five Royal Navy battleships and battlecruisers sunk in the Second World War—did little to affect the numerical superiority enjoyed by the British navy and its Allies, but it had a considerable effect on wartime morale."
(A) Was the ship wasn't significantly "outdated" in comparison to the average Royal Navy battleship. It was even more updated than its sisters with improvements to the armor not yet received by the sisters prior to the war. At the time the first of the KGV was still about a year from being commissioned, so for comparison you had the QE-Class and the Nelson-Class. Clearly the QEs were superior, but they were not newer. Three of the QEs were significantly rebuilt between wars, but less work was done to the Malaya and Barham. A good question might be: as the most updated of her class did the Royal Oak have some superior characteristics than the Malaya and Barham. Clearly speed was not enhanced.
(B) At the outbreak of WWII there were only 12 British Battleships available for service: 5 QEs, 5 Revenges, and 2 Nelsons, with the need for world wide coverage, losing 1 represented an 8% reduction in the force. As far as allies, in 1939 the French had 9 Dreadnought or better battleships, 7 of which were inferior to the Royal Oak in most ways and 2 of which were modern/faster, but carried inferior guns to the Royal Oak. This gives a 21 ship count, compared to the Axis Alliance of the Japanese (10), Italians (5), and Germans (2) = 17. Until December 1941 -- two plus years later, the US was not bound by any allegiance to Britain. However, the Japanese, Italians, and Germans were increasingly tied together by a series of pacts and treaties beginning in the mid-1930s. Going from 21 to 17 to 20 to 17 is a significant "affect the numerical superiority", especially with the questionable reliability of the French.
Can we micro-defend the sentence? Sure we can split hairs -- of course we can. But I think that having such a statement in the lead paragraph maybe considered irresponsible and not universally regarded as accurate. Unnecessarily controversial for an encyclopedia? Thank you! -- Kevin Murray ( talk) 17:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
I made my points. I can't push rope uphill. As I said above, "Can we micro-defend the sentence? Sure we can split hairs -- of course we can." I'm not going to debate you further. Perhaps somebody else will see my point. Or maybe like you suggest move it out of the lead? I would support that compromise. Cheers!
And thanks for all you do for the pages -- I know you work hard. I remember your name fondly from when I was very active on WP years ago. -- Kevin Murray ( talk) 20:41, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
Can someone add a citation where its missing at the last sentence of the Special Operation P: the raid by U-47 section? Hog Farm Bacon 17:52, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
I noticed that the page preview for this article is blank (devoid of words and only display the ship picture). Could someone fix this problem? Thanks. Jauhsekali ( talk) 12:09, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
Link? 61.68.84.23 ( talk) 06:30, 13 February 2024 (UTC)