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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between 20 May, 2005 and 20 June, 2005
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
I've added two images from the National Institute of Health. The first--"HIV Viron.png"--replaces the old "Aids virus.jpg" image. The new image is clearer and provides a better description of the anatomy of the HIV viron. The second image--"HIV Daughter Particles.jpg"--illustrates the text about replication of HIV after and initial infection (under the "Current medical understanding of AIDS" section).
Please be nice to the new images while waging revert wars... Carl Henderson 04:26, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have removed. "During situations where treatments are available many people are able to delay death between ten to twenty years after the development of AIDS." becuase there is no factual basis for this claim. Show me the reference to a ten year survival for antiretrovirals . if you want to make this claim.
Also I have added. "In a process still imperfectly understood, HIV infects the CD4 cells (also called T4 or T-helper cells) of the immune system" This is the current 2005 "scientific consesus". Fauci of NIH from memory.
I have a problem with "AIDS typically develops about ten years following HIV infection." I think ten years is probably the 50% survival - so half develop AIDS within 10 tears and after 10 years half have not developed AIDS. Calling a mid point of a range "typical" seems misleading as in fact very few people wil actually develop AIDS in years 10
Also "proper administration" of antiretroviral medicatiom, seems unnecesarily contentious. Is there evidence of improper adminstration - is it itended to suggest that all or some doctors are imcompetent?
Fred2005 14:49, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have a problem with this:
How is this relevant to Symptoms of AIDS?
The whole issue is that the first symptom of AIDS is usually an AIDS defining illness. Two thirds of reported AIDS in the United States is on the basis of low CD4 cell count - these cases are all asymptomatic
Also opportunistic infections was replaced by AIDS defining illness back in 1993. Can we move with the times and keep up to date with the scientific consenus please?
If you read the Pneumocystis jiroveci pneumonia article you will see that we have all moved on from the earlier suggestions about opportunistic infections. Fred2005 16:00, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Deleted "There is now some evidence that treatment of already-infected people with antiretroviral drugs may reduce the transmission of HIV infection to their sexual partners, independently of other safer-sex precautions [9] ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS#endnote_BBCHAARTspread). This may imply that aggressively treating existing HIV cases, in addition to protecting the uninfected population through education and safer-sex programs, may be more effective at preventing the spread of HIV that either of these alone."
The scientific consesus is that people on retrovirals should use condoms, even if their viral load is undetectable Joe Merkel 02:23, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The purpose of this section appears to be to ridicule some Nobel laureates and the Murdoch press, without actually stating their views. Words like, mainstream, activists, dissidents, and AIDS denialism are all emotive words, which judge positions that are not presented. I am deleting it Joe Merkel 02:34, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Main article: AIDS reappraisal
A few scientists and AIDS activists continue to question the connection between HIV and AIDS, the very existence of HIV, or of an independent AIDS disease. The validity of current testing methods is also questioned. Dissident scientists report that they are usually not invited to attend AIDS conferences and are not granted research funding from most mainstream sources. Prominent members of this group are virus researcher Peter Duesberg and Nobel Prize laureate Kary Mullis. These theories have been in the field for at least 15 years, and have found little support beyond the original circle of advocates. They gained prominence when they were promoted, for reasons which have never been made clear, by sections of the Murdoch press, such as the Sunday Times and The Australian.
Dr. Robert E. Willner caught the attention of the Spanish media, when in 1994 he inoculated himself with the blood of Pedro Tocino, an HIV positive hemophiliac on live TV. Dr. Willner died of a [[heart attack]] in 1995.
Mainstream AIDS activists characterize the position of these dissidents as " AIDS denialism," and believe their public proselytization for their various theories is destructive to the adoption of appropriate preventive and therapeutic measures. Active advocacy of these theories is largely confined to radical gay activist groups such as ACT-UP in San Francisco. (Not to be confused with ACT-UP/Golden Gate, which split from ACT-UP San Francisco in 1990, and changed its name in 2000 to avoid association with ACT-UP/San Francisco's non-mainstream views). As with the enthusiasm for alternative therapies, advocacy of unorthodox views about AIDS has declined with the increasing success of orthodox medical approaches to AIDS therapies.
This is the AIDS article, so the first point is that "AIDS spread initially in West Africa." As this is the habitat of the common chimpanzee genetic comparisons of HIV and SIV were done by the team at University of Alabama. 1999 is the date of publication not when the research was done. The researchers have wisely avoid speculation about how the transfer from chimpanzee to human occured. Weiss, a leading expert in AIDS, suggests the butchering of chimpazees for meat is a possiblity. Beliefs about prostitutes are unsupported by evidence. The polio vaccine theory has also been investigated and discarded. An encyclopedia is not a repository of every discredited belief, blind alley or red herring. Stick to the facts than can be referenced.
The is no reason to repeat the artists impression of HIV. It is already on the HIV article. Joe Merkel 16:56, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What is a section about the origins of HIV doing in the AIDS article? Is the correct place the HIV article. Sci guy 14:12, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have divided this into two sections, because treatments are for people with AIDS and vaccines are intended to prevent HIV - actually vacines probably belong in the HIV article.
I have edited to the 2002 treatment guidelines and linked to the Antiretroviral drug article. Statements like "The majority of the world's infected individuals, unfortunately, do not have access to medications and treatments for HIV and AIDS." are demeaning, racist, and inaccurate. The fact is the majority of the HIV infected people in the world do not meet the current treatment guidelines! Joe Merkel 17:05, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Section excised until dispute solved. Please write alternate versions here, discuss and come to agreement. HINT: fact checking is good.-- Tznkai 16:17, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Antiretroviral regimens are complex, have serious side effects, pose difficulty with adherence, and carry serious potential consequences from the development of viral resistance because of nonadherence to the drug regimen or suboptimal levels of antiretroviral agents. Patient education and involvement in therapeutic decisions are critical. Treatment should usually be offered to all patients with symptoms ascribed to HIV infection. Recommendations for offering antiretroviral therapy among asymptomatic patients require analysis of real and potential risks and benefits. Panel on Clinical Practices for Treatment of HIV. September 2002
There is ongoing research into developing a
vaccine for HIV and in developing new anti-retroviral drugs. Human trials are currently underway. Research to improve current treatments includes simplifying current drug regimens to improve adherence and in decreasing side effects.
VIRxSYS Corporation has developed an innovative HIV lentiviral vector, called VRX496, that can be used to combat the HIV virus. The method has entered Phase I clinical trials, and it is the first-ever use of a lentiviral vector in humans. If results are positive, the method might be proven an effective cure for the AIDS disease.
Ever since AIDS entered the public consciousness, various forms of alternative medicine have been used to treat its symptoms. In the first decade of the epidemic when no useful conventional treatment was available, a large number of PWAs experimented with alternative therapies of various kinds, including massage, herbal and flower remedies and acupuncture, to either combat the virus or to relieve related symptoms. None of these were shown to have any genuine or long-term effect on the virus in controlled trials, but they may have had other quality of life-enhancing effects on individual users. Interest in these therapies has declined over the past decade as conventional treatments have improved. They are still used by some people with AIDS who do not believe that HIV causes AIDS. Alternative therapies such as massage, acupuncture and herbal medicine are still used by many sufferers in conjunction with other treatments, mainly to treat symptoms such as pain and loss of appetite. People with AIDS, like people with other illnesses such as cancer, also sometimes use marijuana to treat pain, combat nausea and stimulate appetite.
Alternate version: Newer treatments, however, have played a part in delaying the onset of AIDS, on reducing the symptoms, and extending patients' life spans. Over the past decade the success of these anti-retroviral treatments in prolonging, and improving, the quality of life for people with AIDS has improved dramatically.
Current optimal treatment options consist of combinations ("cocktails") of two or more types of anti-retroviral agents such as two nucleoside analogue reverse transcriptase inhibitors (NRTIs), and a protease inhibitor or a non nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitor (NNRTI). Patients on such treatments have been known to repeatedly test "undetectable" (that is, negative) for HIV, but discontinuing therapy has thus far caused all such patients' viral loads to promptly increase. There is also concern with such regimens that drug resistance will eventually develop. In recent years the term HAART (highly-active anti-retroviral therapy) has been commonly used to describe this form of treatment. The majority of the world's infected individuals, unfortunately, do not have access to medications and treatments for HIV and AIDS.
There is ongoing research into developing a vaccine for HIV and in developing new anti-retroviral drugs. Human trials are currently underway. Research to improve current treatments includes simplifying current drug regimens to improve adherence and in decreasing side effects.
VIRxSYS Corporation has developed an innovative HIV lentiviral vector, called VRX496, that can be used to combat the HIV virus. The method has entered Phase I clinical trials, and it is the first-ever use of a lentiviral vector in humans. If results are positive, the method might be proven an effective cure for the AIDS disease.
Ever since AIDS entered the public consciousness, various forms of alternative medicine have been used to treat its symptoms. In the first decade of the epidemic when no useful conventional treatment was available, a large number of PWAs experimented with alternative therapies of various kinds, including massage, herbal and flower remedies and acupuncture, to either combat the virus or to relieve related symptoms. None of these were shown to have any genuine or long-term effect on the virus in controlled trials, but they may have had other quality of life-enhancing effects on individual users. Interest in these therapies has declined over the past decade as conventional treatments have improved. They are still used by some people with AIDS who do not believe that HIV causes AIDS. Alternative therapies such as massage, acupuncture and herbal medicine are still used by many sufferers in conjunction with other treatments, mainly to treat symptoms such as pain and loss of appetite. People with AIDS, like people with other illnesses such as cancer, also sometimes use marijuana to treat pain, combat nausea and stimulate appetite.
Responses:
This link was in the references. Is it one of the AIDS denialist websites? They seem to be pushing the same line about defering treatment. [1]
Current Guidelines Recommend
If the U.S. government's Department of Health and Human Services says do not do not start medications, if your T-cell count is 350 or above unless your viral load is 55,000 or higher - then who is advocating early treatment?
As editors it is our role to source the facts. Joe Merkel 15:08, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think its important to talk about this, because atleast in the united states, there is a link in peoples minds, and there is a statistical link that it happens fairly often. Any takers?-- Tznkai 19:32, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In the United States, 75% or reported AIDS cases were attributed to male-to-male sexual contact or injection drug use. These are the two original risk groups identified in 1983, before HIV blood screening was available. This is very different from Africa. I consider "male-to-male sexual contact or injection drug use" to be a NPOV description of behaviour Sci guy 03:01, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article is getting torn up by Fred's edits. He is replacing well-written paragraphs with dire warnings about the dangers of HIV treatment and claims of controversy about early treatment. Of course we should mention the most current guidelines for starting treatment, but in a neutral manner (and without removing information on the benefits of HAART). Rhobite 16:33, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
Uh, where did my remarks on this talk page go? It seems they have been completely deleted by SciGuy [6]. They are not in the talk archives or the NPOV dispute branch SciGuy created. Axon 16:42, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
A couple of weeks ago this article was great. It was comprehensive, well written, flowed well... Now it's a mess. The writing is terrible, relevant information has been cut, the flow is off... What's going on? Exploding Boy 17:10, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
I've reverted to EB's version from May 18 (with a few tweaks to incorperate the new pictures and remove the depricated lists). →Raul654 19:01, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
Oh yeah. That's more like it. Exploding Boy 00:55, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
I think this statement needs to be reworded for NPOV: "The situation in South Africa, where President Thabo Mbeki shares the beliefs of "AIDS denialists," is a negative influence and neglection of the fact that 4.7 million infections took place for 2002." Whig 03:04, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Please see [7]. Exploding Boy 02:24, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
Please see HIV-tainted blood scandal (Japan). Exploding Boy 00:51, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
I have a problem with:
"Patients on such treatments have been known to repeatedly test "undetectable" (that is, negative) for HIV, but discontinuing therapy has thus far caused all such patients' viral loads to promptly increase"
Does "have been known" mean that this is an unusual or rare outcome?
I assume the intention is to claim that viral load blood test is undetectable rather suggesting that such treatments mean a person is negative for HIV on the antibody test.
I suggest we need a source reference so we can edit this to avoid misunderstanding Joe Merkel 15:33, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Joe, I am sick of people coming in to the treatment section and "nerfing" it with vague phrases like "Many people believe that newer treatments have played a part in delaying the onset of AIDS". Peer-reviewed research and clinical trials should not be described as "many people". Many times over, studies have showed that patients who properly adhere to therapy have much lower viral loads, higher CD4 counts, and longer survival times. I am linking to two of these studies so please cut out the vague rewrites. [8] [9]
Also, please stop mentioning the dangers of antiretroviral therapy before it is even described. HAART is not perfect. I'm not trying to hide mention of these problems, but mentioning them before HAART is even described is confusing and dismissive. Rhobite 16:01, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
Under paragraph two of "AIDS epidemic," the article currently states, "In the United States, the most common cause of death for people with AIDS is liver failure caused by antiretroviral drugs." I'm very skeptical of this statement--especially considering many people with AIDS in the US are also co-infected with Hepatitis B or C.
The only source I can find for the liver failure mortality claim is a University of Pittsburgh Medical Center press release [10] highlighting a study by Dr. Amy Justice, presented at 14th International AIDS Conference in Barcelona (2002). She is quoted, saying, "[f]urthermore, the fact that the most common current cause of death among people with HIV is liver failure suggests that liver injury may be a major limiting factor in the effectiveness of current HIV treatment." That quote was then picked up in several news articles and ended up on lots of the "HIV doesn't cause AIDS" websites.
Can anyone verify that liver failure caused by antiretroviral drugs is the most common cause of death for people with AIDS in the US? I tried, and I can't. Carl Henderson 00:14, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It's certainly not true that "liver failure caused by antiretroviral drugs" is the leading cause of death in HIV infected people in the U.S. And we have no citation for that assertion. I suspect what's happened is someone has taken a study in which the most common cause of non-AIDS-related death in AIDS patients is liver failure, added their erroneous assumption that this was due to drugs rather than co-infection with hepatitis B or C, and asserted it here as fact. One study showing results capable of such misinterpretation (but in France rather than the U.S.) is here, and another one among women here. In all such studies, liver failure remains one of the more common types of non-AIDS-related deaths, but non-AIDS-related deaths are dwarfed by AIDS-related causes. A possible explanation of the high incidence of renal and hepatic failure is suggested here to be a rising proportion of drug addict in the population. But we shouldn't be misinterpreting all liver failure in the HIV infected as drug-induced. - Nunh-huh 21:41, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This may have been discussed before, but does anyone think the sentence at the top
"AIDS results from an infection of HIV, the Human Immunodeficiency Virus, although some debate this."
is really poor? I mean, the first part says - "HIV results in AIDS" and the second - "It's debatable that HIV results in AIDS". Can't we say something like "AIDS results from an infection of HIV, the Human Immunodeficiency Virus. Though the later has been widely credited, some still debate the origin of AIDS." Or maybe even take out "although some debate this." all together from the beginning and add it as a counter-point later in the article. Having it in the intro just makes a weak impression for the everything else. JoeSmack (talk) 15:32, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
I have never had a problem with "HIV causes AIDS". It is the same as "smoking causes lung cancer" or "speeding causes road accidents". The October 2004 version from U.S. Department of Health and Human Services is as follows:
I was surprised by the "can" in "HIV infection damages a person’s immune system and can progress to AIDS". But the issue is not what you or believe, we are editors searching for facts that can be verified. So I agree with you that "although some debate this." is really poor. Who debates this? On what basis? When? As we are reminded each time we edit - "Please cite your sources so others can check your work." Sci guy 16:31, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the offending phrase (which I wrote in the first place). →Raul654 17:18, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
Alright guys, don't be scared, but I printed this thing out and started using a red pen. Mostly it has been removing things stated as facts that have no cite, things that don't belong in the article (the prevention section has a stupidly long thing on company condom testing), and things that should be moved. I am doing it in sections so that people can see the changes more easily.
I've gotten about halfway through the article with the red pen, and will finish and add the last half after i change the first half on here. Feel free to talk about the changes. JoeSmack (talk) 17:29, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
man, WTF guys? anyone notice that the Origin of AIDS section, probably one of the most important, has NO CITES whatsoever? you guys are telling me there is no book on the history of AIDS out there? -- someone please take this one on, i'm not even going to touch it cause i'd just delete the whole thing (important yes, but there are no cites). JoeSmack (talk) 18:12, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
about that "devistating" remove. 23 million people in 24 years. imagine in 24 years from now you went to washington. everyone there would be dead. went to utah, everyone there would be dead. nevada. oregon. north dakota, nebraska.... doesn't that seem devistating? am i pushing the line with that word? JoeSmack (talk) 18:22, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
alright, I cant stand this ridiculas lack of citing sources. i'm stopping and continuing tomorrow or something. i'll be around if anyone wants to talk about the changes i've already made. JoeSmack (talk) 18:26, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
Alrighty guys, i added sources for the 1 in 200 rate of HIV infect for a needle prick and prevention for mothers birthing and breastfeeding for infants. Any takers for other sourceless facts? I've got list of removed 'facts' on my talk page that just need sources to go back in... JoeSmack (talk) 21:43, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
I thought I'd dealt with the Bangui definition way back in this edit. Why has this complete red herring, complete with unsourced claims about half the AIDS cases in Africa, snuck its way back into the article? -- Robert Merkel 08:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree. The 'Bangui definition' is not part of the current definition, neither is hemophilia, Haitian, or male homosexual. The current definition based on HIV antibodies, T cells and AIDS defining illnesses would be better. Sci guy 14:12, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have heard that Africans are more likely to contract AIDS due to genetic factors and that a minority of those with Scandinavian genes are immune to it. Perhaps we should include something about this? 207.224.198.170 16:50, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm assuming that Sci guy's new tactic is simply to drown readers in overwhelming statistics and impenetrable language, such as the new CDC graphic and the large lists of people infected per region and deaths per region. I'm not saying this data shouldn't be in there, but there seems to be an intentional campaign to (a) make it take up as much space as possible and (b) copy complex language directly from medical studies.
For example, we just rewrote the lead section by hand over the past few days. I think the new lead is pretty good. Sci guy replaced the lead section with this text, copied directly from the CDC's MMWR, a publication which is intended for medical professionals:
This text is basically unreadable to a layperson. I'm concerned that now that the legitimate contributors are making an effort to cite sources, Sci guy has shifted tactics towards trying to make the article as unreadable as possible. Sci guy please use your own words. Other people have taken the time to do research and write in language that is comfortable to read. If you are not willing or capable of doing the same, I'd ask that you please stop editing this article. All of your recent edits have been simple cut and paste jobs. Rhobite 16:57, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between 20 May, 2005 and 20 June, 2005
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
I've added two images from the National Institute of Health. The first--"HIV Viron.png"--replaces the old "Aids virus.jpg" image. The new image is clearer and provides a better description of the anatomy of the HIV viron. The second image--"HIV Daughter Particles.jpg"--illustrates the text about replication of HIV after and initial infection (under the "Current medical understanding of AIDS" section).
Please be nice to the new images while waging revert wars... Carl Henderson 04:26, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have removed. "During situations where treatments are available many people are able to delay death between ten to twenty years after the development of AIDS." becuase there is no factual basis for this claim. Show me the reference to a ten year survival for antiretrovirals . if you want to make this claim.
Also I have added. "In a process still imperfectly understood, HIV infects the CD4 cells (also called T4 or T-helper cells) of the immune system" This is the current 2005 "scientific consesus". Fauci of NIH from memory.
I have a problem with "AIDS typically develops about ten years following HIV infection." I think ten years is probably the 50% survival - so half develop AIDS within 10 tears and after 10 years half have not developed AIDS. Calling a mid point of a range "typical" seems misleading as in fact very few people wil actually develop AIDS in years 10
Also "proper administration" of antiretroviral medicatiom, seems unnecesarily contentious. Is there evidence of improper adminstration - is it itended to suggest that all or some doctors are imcompetent?
Fred2005 14:49, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have a problem with this:
How is this relevant to Symptoms of AIDS?
The whole issue is that the first symptom of AIDS is usually an AIDS defining illness. Two thirds of reported AIDS in the United States is on the basis of low CD4 cell count - these cases are all asymptomatic
Also opportunistic infections was replaced by AIDS defining illness back in 1993. Can we move with the times and keep up to date with the scientific consenus please?
If you read the Pneumocystis jiroveci pneumonia article you will see that we have all moved on from the earlier suggestions about opportunistic infections. Fred2005 16:00, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Deleted "There is now some evidence that treatment of already-infected people with antiretroviral drugs may reduce the transmission of HIV infection to their sexual partners, independently of other safer-sex precautions [9] ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS#endnote_BBCHAARTspread). This may imply that aggressively treating existing HIV cases, in addition to protecting the uninfected population through education and safer-sex programs, may be more effective at preventing the spread of HIV that either of these alone."
The scientific consesus is that people on retrovirals should use condoms, even if their viral load is undetectable Joe Merkel 02:23, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The purpose of this section appears to be to ridicule some Nobel laureates and the Murdoch press, without actually stating their views. Words like, mainstream, activists, dissidents, and AIDS denialism are all emotive words, which judge positions that are not presented. I am deleting it Joe Merkel 02:34, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Main article: AIDS reappraisal
A few scientists and AIDS activists continue to question the connection between HIV and AIDS, the very existence of HIV, or of an independent AIDS disease. The validity of current testing methods is also questioned. Dissident scientists report that they are usually not invited to attend AIDS conferences and are not granted research funding from most mainstream sources. Prominent members of this group are virus researcher Peter Duesberg and Nobel Prize laureate Kary Mullis. These theories have been in the field for at least 15 years, and have found little support beyond the original circle of advocates. They gained prominence when they were promoted, for reasons which have never been made clear, by sections of the Murdoch press, such as the Sunday Times and The Australian.
Dr. Robert E. Willner caught the attention of the Spanish media, when in 1994 he inoculated himself with the blood of Pedro Tocino, an HIV positive hemophiliac on live TV. Dr. Willner died of a [[heart attack]] in 1995.
Mainstream AIDS activists characterize the position of these dissidents as " AIDS denialism," and believe their public proselytization for their various theories is destructive to the adoption of appropriate preventive and therapeutic measures. Active advocacy of these theories is largely confined to radical gay activist groups such as ACT-UP in San Francisco. (Not to be confused with ACT-UP/Golden Gate, which split from ACT-UP San Francisco in 1990, and changed its name in 2000 to avoid association with ACT-UP/San Francisco's non-mainstream views). As with the enthusiasm for alternative therapies, advocacy of unorthodox views about AIDS has declined with the increasing success of orthodox medical approaches to AIDS therapies.
This is the AIDS article, so the first point is that "AIDS spread initially in West Africa." As this is the habitat of the common chimpanzee genetic comparisons of HIV and SIV were done by the team at University of Alabama. 1999 is the date of publication not when the research was done. The researchers have wisely avoid speculation about how the transfer from chimpanzee to human occured. Weiss, a leading expert in AIDS, suggests the butchering of chimpazees for meat is a possiblity. Beliefs about prostitutes are unsupported by evidence. The polio vaccine theory has also been investigated and discarded. An encyclopedia is not a repository of every discredited belief, blind alley or red herring. Stick to the facts than can be referenced.
The is no reason to repeat the artists impression of HIV. It is already on the HIV article. Joe Merkel 16:56, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What is a section about the origins of HIV doing in the AIDS article? Is the correct place the HIV article. Sci guy 14:12, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have divided this into two sections, because treatments are for people with AIDS and vaccines are intended to prevent HIV - actually vacines probably belong in the HIV article.
I have edited to the 2002 treatment guidelines and linked to the Antiretroviral drug article. Statements like "The majority of the world's infected individuals, unfortunately, do not have access to medications and treatments for HIV and AIDS." are demeaning, racist, and inaccurate. The fact is the majority of the HIV infected people in the world do not meet the current treatment guidelines! Joe Merkel 17:05, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Section excised until dispute solved. Please write alternate versions here, discuss and come to agreement. HINT: fact checking is good.-- Tznkai 16:17, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Antiretroviral regimens are complex, have serious side effects, pose difficulty with adherence, and carry serious potential consequences from the development of viral resistance because of nonadherence to the drug regimen or suboptimal levels of antiretroviral agents. Patient education and involvement in therapeutic decisions are critical. Treatment should usually be offered to all patients with symptoms ascribed to HIV infection. Recommendations for offering antiretroviral therapy among asymptomatic patients require analysis of real and potential risks and benefits. Panel on Clinical Practices for Treatment of HIV. September 2002
There is ongoing research into developing a
vaccine for HIV and in developing new anti-retroviral drugs. Human trials are currently underway. Research to improve current treatments includes simplifying current drug regimens to improve adherence and in decreasing side effects.
VIRxSYS Corporation has developed an innovative HIV lentiviral vector, called VRX496, that can be used to combat the HIV virus. The method has entered Phase I clinical trials, and it is the first-ever use of a lentiviral vector in humans. If results are positive, the method might be proven an effective cure for the AIDS disease.
Ever since AIDS entered the public consciousness, various forms of alternative medicine have been used to treat its symptoms. In the first decade of the epidemic when no useful conventional treatment was available, a large number of PWAs experimented with alternative therapies of various kinds, including massage, herbal and flower remedies and acupuncture, to either combat the virus or to relieve related symptoms. None of these were shown to have any genuine or long-term effect on the virus in controlled trials, but they may have had other quality of life-enhancing effects on individual users. Interest in these therapies has declined over the past decade as conventional treatments have improved. They are still used by some people with AIDS who do not believe that HIV causes AIDS. Alternative therapies such as massage, acupuncture and herbal medicine are still used by many sufferers in conjunction with other treatments, mainly to treat symptoms such as pain and loss of appetite. People with AIDS, like people with other illnesses such as cancer, also sometimes use marijuana to treat pain, combat nausea and stimulate appetite.
Alternate version: Newer treatments, however, have played a part in delaying the onset of AIDS, on reducing the symptoms, and extending patients' life spans. Over the past decade the success of these anti-retroviral treatments in prolonging, and improving, the quality of life for people with AIDS has improved dramatically.
Current optimal treatment options consist of combinations ("cocktails") of two or more types of anti-retroviral agents such as two nucleoside analogue reverse transcriptase inhibitors (NRTIs), and a protease inhibitor or a non nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitor (NNRTI). Patients on such treatments have been known to repeatedly test "undetectable" (that is, negative) for HIV, but discontinuing therapy has thus far caused all such patients' viral loads to promptly increase. There is also concern with such regimens that drug resistance will eventually develop. In recent years the term HAART (highly-active anti-retroviral therapy) has been commonly used to describe this form of treatment. The majority of the world's infected individuals, unfortunately, do not have access to medications and treatments for HIV and AIDS.
There is ongoing research into developing a vaccine for HIV and in developing new anti-retroviral drugs. Human trials are currently underway. Research to improve current treatments includes simplifying current drug regimens to improve adherence and in decreasing side effects.
VIRxSYS Corporation has developed an innovative HIV lentiviral vector, called VRX496, that can be used to combat the HIV virus. The method has entered Phase I clinical trials, and it is the first-ever use of a lentiviral vector in humans. If results are positive, the method might be proven an effective cure for the AIDS disease.
Ever since AIDS entered the public consciousness, various forms of alternative medicine have been used to treat its symptoms. In the first decade of the epidemic when no useful conventional treatment was available, a large number of PWAs experimented with alternative therapies of various kinds, including massage, herbal and flower remedies and acupuncture, to either combat the virus or to relieve related symptoms. None of these were shown to have any genuine or long-term effect on the virus in controlled trials, but they may have had other quality of life-enhancing effects on individual users. Interest in these therapies has declined over the past decade as conventional treatments have improved. They are still used by some people with AIDS who do not believe that HIV causes AIDS. Alternative therapies such as massage, acupuncture and herbal medicine are still used by many sufferers in conjunction with other treatments, mainly to treat symptoms such as pain and loss of appetite. People with AIDS, like people with other illnesses such as cancer, also sometimes use marijuana to treat pain, combat nausea and stimulate appetite.
Responses:
This link was in the references. Is it one of the AIDS denialist websites? They seem to be pushing the same line about defering treatment. [1]
Current Guidelines Recommend
If the U.S. government's Department of Health and Human Services says do not do not start medications, if your T-cell count is 350 or above unless your viral load is 55,000 or higher - then who is advocating early treatment?
As editors it is our role to source the facts. Joe Merkel 15:08, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think its important to talk about this, because atleast in the united states, there is a link in peoples minds, and there is a statistical link that it happens fairly often. Any takers?-- Tznkai 19:32, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In the United States, 75% or reported AIDS cases were attributed to male-to-male sexual contact or injection drug use. These are the two original risk groups identified in 1983, before HIV blood screening was available. This is very different from Africa. I consider "male-to-male sexual contact or injection drug use" to be a NPOV description of behaviour Sci guy 03:01, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article is getting torn up by Fred's edits. He is replacing well-written paragraphs with dire warnings about the dangers of HIV treatment and claims of controversy about early treatment. Of course we should mention the most current guidelines for starting treatment, but in a neutral manner (and without removing information on the benefits of HAART). Rhobite 16:33, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
Uh, where did my remarks on this talk page go? It seems they have been completely deleted by SciGuy [6]. They are not in the talk archives or the NPOV dispute branch SciGuy created. Axon 16:42, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
A couple of weeks ago this article was great. It was comprehensive, well written, flowed well... Now it's a mess. The writing is terrible, relevant information has been cut, the flow is off... What's going on? Exploding Boy 17:10, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
I've reverted to EB's version from May 18 (with a few tweaks to incorperate the new pictures and remove the depricated lists). →Raul654 19:01, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
Oh yeah. That's more like it. Exploding Boy 00:55, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
I think this statement needs to be reworded for NPOV: "The situation in South Africa, where President Thabo Mbeki shares the beliefs of "AIDS denialists," is a negative influence and neglection of the fact that 4.7 million infections took place for 2002." Whig 03:04, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Please see [7]. Exploding Boy 02:24, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
Please see HIV-tainted blood scandal (Japan). Exploding Boy 00:51, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
I have a problem with:
"Patients on such treatments have been known to repeatedly test "undetectable" (that is, negative) for HIV, but discontinuing therapy has thus far caused all such patients' viral loads to promptly increase"
Does "have been known" mean that this is an unusual or rare outcome?
I assume the intention is to claim that viral load blood test is undetectable rather suggesting that such treatments mean a person is negative for HIV on the antibody test.
I suggest we need a source reference so we can edit this to avoid misunderstanding Joe Merkel 15:33, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Joe, I am sick of people coming in to the treatment section and "nerfing" it with vague phrases like "Many people believe that newer treatments have played a part in delaying the onset of AIDS". Peer-reviewed research and clinical trials should not be described as "many people". Many times over, studies have showed that patients who properly adhere to therapy have much lower viral loads, higher CD4 counts, and longer survival times. I am linking to two of these studies so please cut out the vague rewrites. [8] [9]
Also, please stop mentioning the dangers of antiretroviral therapy before it is even described. HAART is not perfect. I'm not trying to hide mention of these problems, but mentioning them before HAART is even described is confusing and dismissive. Rhobite 16:01, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
Under paragraph two of "AIDS epidemic," the article currently states, "In the United States, the most common cause of death for people with AIDS is liver failure caused by antiretroviral drugs." I'm very skeptical of this statement--especially considering many people with AIDS in the US are also co-infected with Hepatitis B or C.
The only source I can find for the liver failure mortality claim is a University of Pittsburgh Medical Center press release [10] highlighting a study by Dr. Amy Justice, presented at 14th International AIDS Conference in Barcelona (2002). She is quoted, saying, "[f]urthermore, the fact that the most common current cause of death among people with HIV is liver failure suggests that liver injury may be a major limiting factor in the effectiveness of current HIV treatment." That quote was then picked up in several news articles and ended up on lots of the "HIV doesn't cause AIDS" websites.
Can anyone verify that liver failure caused by antiretroviral drugs is the most common cause of death for people with AIDS in the US? I tried, and I can't. Carl Henderson 00:14, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It's certainly not true that "liver failure caused by antiretroviral drugs" is the leading cause of death in HIV infected people in the U.S. And we have no citation for that assertion. I suspect what's happened is someone has taken a study in which the most common cause of non-AIDS-related death in AIDS patients is liver failure, added their erroneous assumption that this was due to drugs rather than co-infection with hepatitis B or C, and asserted it here as fact. One study showing results capable of such misinterpretation (but in France rather than the U.S.) is here, and another one among women here. In all such studies, liver failure remains one of the more common types of non-AIDS-related deaths, but non-AIDS-related deaths are dwarfed by AIDS-related causes. A possible explanation of the high incidence of renal and hepatic failure is suggested here to be a rising proportion of drug addict in the population. But we shouldn't be misinterpreting all liver failure in the HIV infected as drug-induced. - Nunh-huh 21:41, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This may have been discussed before, but does anyone think the sentence at the top
"AIDS results from an infection of HIV, the Human Immunodeficiency Virus, although some debate this."
is really poor? I mean, the first part says - "HIV results in AIDS" and the second - "It's debatable that HIV results in AIDS". Can't we say something like "AIDS results from an infection of HIV, the Human Immunodeficiency Virus. Though the later has been widely credited, some still debate the origin of AIDS." Or maybe even take out "although some debate this." all together from the beginning and add it as a counter-point later in the article. Having it in the intro just makes a weak impression for the everything else. JoeSmack (talk) 15:32, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
I have never had a problem with "HIV causes AIDS". It is the same as "smoking causes lung cancer" or "speeding causes road accidents". The October 2004 version from U.S. Department of Health and Human Services is as follows:
I was surprised by the "can" in "HIV infection damages a person’s immune system and can progress to AIDS". But the issue is not what you or believe, we are editors searching for facts that can be verified. So I agree with you that "although some debate this." is really poor. Who debates this? On what basis? When? As we are reminded each time we edit - "Please cite your sources so others can check your work." Sci guy 16:31, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the offending phrase (which I wrote in the first place). →Raul654 17:18, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
Alright guys, don't be scared, but I printed this thing out and started using a red pen. Mostly it has been removing things stated as facts that have no cite, things that don't belong in the article (the prevention section has a stupidly long thing on company condom testing), and things that should be moved. I am doing it in sections so that people can see the changes more easily.
I've gotten about halfway through the article with the red pen, and will finish and add the last half after i change the first half on here. Feel free to talk about the changes. JoeSmack (talk) 17:29, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
man, WTF guys? anyone notice that the Origin of AIDS section, probably one of the most important, has NO CITES whatsoever? you guys are telling me there is no book on the history of AIDS out there? -- someone please take this one on, i'm not even going to touch it cause i'd just delete the whole thing (important yes, but there are no cites). JoeSmack (talk) 18:12, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
about that "devistating" remove. 23 million people in 24 years. imagine in 24 years from now you went to washington. everyone there would be dead. went to utah, everyone there would be dead. nevada. oregon. north dakota, nebraska.... doesn't that seem devistating? am i pushing the line with that word? JoeSmack (talk) 18:22, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
alright, I cant stand this ridiculas lack of citing sources. i'm stopping and continuing tomorrow or something. i'll be around if anyone wants to talk about the changes i've already made. JoeSmack (talk) 18:26, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
Alrighty guys, i added sources for the 1 in 200 rate of HIV infect for a needle prick and prevention for mothers birthing and breastfeeding for infants. Any takers for other sourceless facts? I've got list of removed 'facts' on my talk page that just need sources to go back in... JoeSmack (talk) 21:43, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
I thought I'd dealt with the Bangui definition way back in this edit. Why has this complete red herring, complete with unsourced claims about half the AIDS cases in Africa, snuck its way back into the article? -- Robert Merkel 08:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree. The 'Bangui definition' is not part of the current definition, neither is hemophilia, Haitian, or male homosexual. The current definition based on HIV antibodies, T cells and AIDS defining illnesses would be better. Sci guy 14:12, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have heard that Africans are more likely to contract AIDS due to genetic factors and that a minority of those with Scandinavian genes are immune to it. Perhaps we should include something about this? 207.224.198.170 16:50, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm assuming that Sci guy's new tactic is simply to drown readers in overwhelming statistics and impenetrable language, such as the new CDC graphic and the large lists of people infected per region and deaths per region. I'm not saying this data shouldn't be in there, but there seems to be an intentional campaign to (a) make it take up as much space as possible and (b) copy complex language directly from medical studies.
For example, we just rewrote the lead section by hand over the past few days. I think the new lead is pretty good. Sci guy replaced the lead section with this text, copied directly from the CDC's MMWR, a publication which is intended for medical professionals:
This text is basically unreadable to a layperson. I'm concerned that now that the legitimate contributors are making an effort to cite sources, Sci guy has shifted tactics towards trying to make the article as unreadable as possible. Sci guy please use your own words. Other people have taken the time to do research and write in language that is comfortable to read. If you are not willing or capable of doing the same, I'd ask that you please stop editing this article. All of your recent edits have been simple cut and paste jobs. Rhobite 16:57, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
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